/lit/ - Literature

Sword & sorcery is more fun and makes for better stories anyway.

Tolkien is OK but doesn't have all that much to offer behind the world-building (which has become an autism standard) and the stylisation doesn't do much.

The more GRRM writes the more he shits, and the more he shits the more he writes. ... What I'm trying to say is, what he writes is shit.

Erikson is literally >>/tg/

>>6533585
What is it about fantasy novels that resonates so deeply? I've always wondered why some fantasy is so incredibly engrossing. It's far easier to lose oneself in certain fantasy novels than it is any other kind of literature. Why is that?

>>6533640
Don't know, myself. Bumpin' for interest, though.

I'll think about this at work, and I might even post my musings on this when I get back.

>>6533640
Fantasy, at it's core, is about that feeling you get when you look at a mountain and wonder what's on the other side.

The idea that fantasy is all about swords and sorcery and elves and dwarves and shit is mostly Tolkien's fault - or rather, the fault of the people who tried to imitate him. Tolkien's books were a smash hit at the time theyt came out, so naturally every writer and publisher that came after him wanted to reproduce that success, without really understanding what made it work in the first place. Fantasy can be about damn near anything, provided that sense of wonder and mystery is there.

Fantasy doesn't strictly need to be set in the past either, though it often is for three major reasons:

1. Setting the story in the past let's it tap into the cultural resonance of things like fairytails, folklore and mythology.

2. A lot of fantasy writers are also history buffs, and so like a lot of writers, they write what they know.

3. Setting a story in the past lends it a sense of timelessness (this ties back into the whole fairytail/mythology angle). Stories set in the future can quickly become dated (or out-dated) as new discoveries are made and old theories debunked. On the other hand, a story set in the past (or a fictional world inspired by the past) can withstand the test of time more easily, since it's all based off of shit we already know and (for the most part) isn't going to change.

Fantasy tends to be so engrossing because it takes you out of yourself in a way that a lot of other literature doesn't. With rare exception, it completely disconnects you from the 'real world' as you know it, and immerses you in one that is at once familiar yet different. The fact that it lacks a lot of the technological sophistication of most sci-fi (when set in the past) also makes it a bit easier to slip into, since you don't need to worry about the author beating you over the head with their environmental sciences/quantum physics degree in order to get through the story. It can still deal with serious issues and human questions, but the sets and props are fairly simple and easy to wrap your head around without getting confused.

It's a bit like the literary equivalent of going camping.

[End ramble]

>>6533593
tolkien has plenty to offer, aside from robert e howard and a few philosophers i dont know who else abhors industrialism and anything remotely modern and is able to cast it in such a dialectic between good and evil.

>>6533585
Jordan, Tolkein, Martin, Erickson, Howard, Lynch, Feist, Mcdonald, Dunsany, Cook, White, Brooks, Sanderson, Moorcock, DeLint, Crowly, Brust, Lawrence, Lovecraft, etc.
All incredible.
Fantasy seems to me to be a form of poetry.
Even if it is merely a good vs evil tale, there is a way beyond any other form of literature, to have a deeply beautiful way of unfolding the story, akin only to poetry.
All these people who hate on them are literally one out of two people:
Person A: The guy who wants to seem deep and cultured who actually hasn't really read any fantasy (IF only Tolkien.)
And Person B: The guy who doesn't like tales in any form, and instead will only read fiction if it experimental in a certain way wherein he can use it as another source of direct information n a different way.

>>6533585
Fantasy/sci fi is always power fantasies. The reason why it resonates so deep is because weaboo cucks wish to be this highly capable monster hunter, space cowboy, elven demigod who seduces all the fair maidens. Reason why world building is so important is to immerse you into this universe where you are not a cuck.

here's my opinion on Authors (because i'm a weaboo cuck who likes power fantasies too)
>Tolkein- Great universe, terrible writer, Peter Jackson actually made LOTR good, I just hope he doesn't touch Sil(Because Sil is really good).
>Martin-rubbish writer worse than Tolkein, couldn't get into ASOIF for a while until the show convinced me to nut through it. Seriously he could shorten this down to 1-2 books, lots of convolution, very fun otherwise.
>Erickson- Never got into Malazan, never plan to.
>Wolf-obligatory to mention Wolf in any Genre fiction thread, wolf is the saving grace of Genre fiction, without him Genre fiction would be called out for the garbage it is.

>>6534473
gr8 b8 m8 yada yada yada

>>6534473
> tfw you like Gene Eolfe but starting to feel like hes really overrated by people who havent read anything else but ASOIAF and maybe First Law

>>6534485
>you know he's right

>>6534491
>referring to yourself as 'he'

>>6534492
>he speaks in the third person

>>6534494
>verifying what you were trying to hide by using a transparent comeback

>>6533585
First of all, who the fuck is Erickson? Lief Erikson? 11/10 based /lit/

Tolkien isn't bad really at all, just kind of unfairly shadowed by the movies and the books are long as shit.

George Martin is fucking lame. Literally the TV show is higher quality than this overpraised bullshit he poops out every million years.

So yeah. Beowulf sucks.

>>6534473

Don't you need a gf to be a cuck?

Anyway I don't read this shit because I found LOTR pleasant enough, but had no desire to read it all over again. Yeah, okay, instead of elves it's mulgolus or whatever the fuck this time, but the blueprint is still the same. Nothing earns my contempt more than familiarity.

>>6534508
>i dont read horror because its all familiar
>i dont read sc-fi because its all familiar
>i dont read mystery because its all familiar
>i dont read romance because its all familiar
>i dont read thriller because its all familiar
>i dont read Victorian dramas because its all familiar
>i dont read tragedy because its all familiar
>i dont read comedy because its all familiar

>>6534509
see
>>6534485

>>6534473
Who is wolf

>>6533585
Epin Fantaassy is total shite because of how long it is. If it did the same thing in less time it'd be on the same level of mediocrity as all other genre fiction, but the fact that it takes 3-5 long-winded books minimum to tell one story is what makes it garbage.

Even great authors can't always keep a consistent level of quality in their work once it gets past a certain length. Random neckbeard D&Der #3452829342 isn't going to do a better job than them no matter how many other random neckbeards enjoy his masturbatory drivel (or drippings I guess).

>>6534024
Very good post

>>6533585
>Tolkien
Great.

>GRR
literally soap opera tier, its not a meme if its true. And its true.

>Erickson
Have not read him. Is he really considered that good?
I will admit a personal bias in that I am extremely wary of ultra long fantasy series. I have a hard time believing they give you anything unique of rewarding out of their length. And I don't think length makes something "more epic". I think of all the other books I could have read.

I'm not saying its never justifiable. But I think its often abused.
On the general question i don't think epic fantasy necessarily sucks, I just think its often "okay" and long. And I think being okay and long is a certain kind of mediocre sin where you eat up a bunch of someones time and they are going to forget almost all of it.
I got through ASOIAF books and they are literally just a big fart. Maybe one or two good characters, the rest are just mediocre okay characters. the drama the dialogue and it all just goes on and on and on. Its like a trough of porridge.

Tolkien is still the best I have read in the genre because you feel a sense of otherness in the races. I felt like all the elf fuckers distinctly had an internal life that was similar but separate from humans. When people are talking to elves its almost like a child is talking to an adult, the immediacy and importance seems to not translate to the being that has been alive so long.
What a great and unique thing for a writer to be able to do. That was marvelous and I've never felt that from another fantasy author to be entirely honest.

When someone is supposedly old or ancient or a great knight or killer or whatever in a GRRM book he is really just a person who acts like the rest, unless you are supposed to like him then he has witty remarks and fucks wenches; or perhaps if you are supposed to fear him he will know a lot about a bunch of things.
These books take such a long time to be mediocre its a crime.

Because it has nothing to teach me. Don't get me wrong, I loved me some rollicking adventures in escapism land when I was in my teens, but these days if a book doesn't have something to say I find it hard to pay attention.
>>6534607
>but the fact that it takes 3-5 long-winded books minimum to tell one story is what makes it garbage.
Also a bit of this. I realised that a lot of Fantasy authors relied on this kind of cycle that spends books and books on this cyclical THE QUEST - diversion - solution - diversion - solution - diversion - solution - QUEST DONE

>>6533585
ebin fantasy :DDD

>>6533585


it's so, so gay

>>6534024
10/10 post.

>>6534024
Bravo

>>6534629
>>6534707
>>6534711


All this fucking samefag for such a awful post.

stop. for sucks sake.

I hate the maturbation over Tolkiens work, it makes it feel repetitive and unimaginative which is the opposite of what I think fantasy should be. >>6534024 summed it up

Mainly I hate how damn long most of it is, Malazan interests me but I will never read it due to how long it is.

>>6533585
What I find fascinating is that the authors trying to recapture the lightning of LotR in a bottle try to emulate *Tolkien*, which is retarded.
After all, he went to great lengths to explain HE was emulating the great epics of the West.Trying to write good fantasy by ripping of JRR is like trying to emulate Doc Smith by ripping off an issue of Green Lantern - at that point you're a copy of a copy.

JRR did what he wanted to do - capture the powerful narrative of the great Western epics. The worldbuilding was, in my opinion, secondary to the replication of the great themes of the epics.

>>6534716
Not samefagging, genius

>>6534027
>dialectic

>>6534721
Malazan is like a shitty version of Warhammer fantasy mixed with shounen anime that has no presentation outside an apendix. There is no reason whatsoever to read it.

>>6534776
Well that sounds terrible, I probably never will.

>>6534776
>presentation
You want "exposition"
but yeah.

>>6534789
Seriously Warhammer novels are better than most popular fantasy, better than ASOIAF, Malazan, Kingkiller. Which is humiliating considering they are basically glorified fanfictions.

>>6534813
That's quite depressing.

Has there been any good fantasy recently?

>>6534813
Are there any Warhammer books you would actually suggest though.

>>6534473
Lmao you're a fucking idiot

>Select all burritos below

>>6535176
Helsreach, Aurelian, Horus Rising, First Heretic, Eisenhorn, Night Lords trilogy, The Unremembered Empire.
Of course this is read purely as entertainment. It isn't garbage though, prose is decent and the authors attempt to characterise.
>>6534956
The Wizard Kinght by Gene Wolfe is very good.

>>6533585
i happen to really like Tolkein and Sapkowski. Dragonlance is ok i guess, and i really liked the Warcraft books that take place prior to the MMO timeline. but many others are really just rehashed for Tolkein stories.

they just feel sort of childish if they dont come off correctly. That being said, i would still like to give Jordan's and Feist's series a looking into. Im curious if Rothfuss' book is as laughable as everyone says it is. and i have no desire to dig further into Martin's and Goodkind's series after the first book's in both of their series.

>>6535602
Oh, I thought you meant Warhammer Fantasy.

Yeah I have read some of them and they are okay. I stopped bothering with the Horus Series when I saw how god awfully long it was going to be though.

>>6535637
Well you only need to read those of a few authors. It's what 10 books in total? Not too big considering every one is also standalone.

>>6535176
Malus Darkblade

>>6534473

This is crass, but basically correct. Fantasy is fundamentally about male weakness in the same was that 'Real Housewife' reality TV is about female weakness. 90% of fantasy attracts an audience by doing 3 things.

1) Provides an underdog protagonist who discovers he's stronger than everyone else, and that he must save everyone else by being strong. Richard Cypher has the most magical sword, Harry Potter has the most magical secret spell, Peter Parker is stronger than all the jocks, etc. In this way, an audience who sees themselves as less accomplished than their peers get to vividly imagine private confidence; IE, quietly knowing they are superior.

2) Plants protagonist in a social context resembling high school, or an adult world as a high school teenager would imagine it. The story will play with the tension of underdog protagonist reluctantly being the most special among his peers. In this way, the audience gets to imagine being appreciated by others for being superior, or being underappreciated and quietly thriving due to their private confidence.

3) Concocts an elaborate journey, which lets the author re-run points 1 and 2 over and over again. The protagonist will hit low points, then recover even stronger than before, renewing his benevolent superiority and public aura. Sex will be used to burnish the journey and add to the illusion of progress. Sex will be treated as an analogue for 'self-respect and public acknowledgement' in points 1 and 2. The character's relationships will never resemble real, human relationships, and the audience will never mind, because it is mostly hermetic. Believing in 'sex as an expression of popularity' lets the audience explain its own virginity as being outside its own power, rather than an affront to its own fundamental lethargy.

The well-done popular fantasy entries subvert these rules, EG Harry Potter was actually about celebrity and accidentally pre-empted YouTube/Insta/Vine fame etc., whereas ASoIaF subs gothic drama in for escapism and leaning heavily on pulp luridness.

>>6534535
>>6534485
>I disagree so it's bait.
>I can't refute you so I will say it's b8
He's objectively right. Martin is a shit writer, even by genre fictions incredibly low standards.

>>6535688
>Sex will be used to burnish the journey and add to the illusion of progress. Sex will be treated as an analogue for 'self-respect and public acknowledgement' in points 1 and 2. The character's relationships will never resemble real, human relationships, and the audience will never mind, because it is mostly hermetic. Believing in 'sex as an expression of popularity' lets the audience explain its own virginity as being outside its own power, rather than an affront to its own fundamental lethargy.
I don't think this has ever been as transparent as it was in Patrick Rothfuss' The Wise Man's Fear. He literally, LITERALLY has the protagonist whisked off to a magical realm of fae to do nothing but learn how to fuck, and then exalt in his sexual prowess in the real world.

sci-fi is better

>>6535688

This post is really interesting and thought provoking.

While I don't know if I'm willing to jump on genres appealing so much to male/female weakness I can respect that a good portion of 'gas' in these stories comes from playing off these common desires/wish fulfillment type scenarios.

I think its a very human thing to want to be apart of a group/project that is going places. I'm thinking of all the stories that basically consist of some person sucked out of their ordinary life into a group and taken on an already planned out adventure, learning along the way.

Its sort of coddling in one way; and in another way it makes me think of joining a tribes hunting party as a young man. You have someone older/more experienced come and tell you to come along for the ride, and you learn/experience. Its just in book format the character seldom grows up or learns and it becomes more of a power fantasy.

Is their any fantasy that doesn't have the protagonist as either the very best swordsman/magician/hfhgfhgh'ththth-tilac ever?

Would a story about a mostly average person (who stays mostly average) caught up in world events in a fantasy setting be appealing?

The problem is not epic fantasy

The problem is Tolkien derivative D&D-tier shit

>>6535833
Lloyd Alexander's the Black Cauldron series

>>6535833
Have you perhaps heard of a series by John Ronald Reuel Tolkien called "the Lord of the Rings"?

>>6535655
Its up to 25 books now roughly.

>>6534529
The difference is that most genres aside from epic fantasy are primarily about the characters and the plot, while epic fantasy is primarily about the setting. This makes fantasy much more susceptible to getting boring, particularly since most fantasy writers basically just pull a name-switch on Tolkien's setting and call it their own.

You don't read fantasy because you're so interested in the struggles of yet another generic noble swordsman or elegant elven archer; you read it because you want to be immersed in a world that is unfamiliar to us. The shallow formulaic plot is not such a problem, since a more complex story would just distract from the exposition of worldbuilding that makes up the bulk of the text. Unfortunately, this means that when you've read a few fantasy books and realize that with each one you've read, the setting seems to become less and less unique, the main driving force behind the genre is lost.

>>6535887
closer to 40. But you won't read all of it, only 2-3 authors.

>>6535786

Thanks. Yes, and by your post, I see that you intuit the fatuousness of fantasy's proposed 'learning experience.' The character is only ever learning about a) his own importance or b) details about a surrounding community he must deliver from catastrophe, thereby affirming his own importance. This is a mockery of true learning and true humanity, being solipsistic. Thus the genre is redeemable for teenagers, but shameful for adults.

>>6533593
>>6534509
>>6534607
>>6534634
>>6533593

I am the OP and i also think, as many of you, that epic fantasy sucks, but i don't think it is the nature of the genre that is creating this situation, i believe it's the people that write epic fantasy that makes people hate or despise most of the books in the genre.

I read Tolkien and his setting kinda flirts with your imagination and your mind some how fells in love with the elves, orcs, magic, etc. so, after finishing the book, you want to read more about this fantastic land. So you start to look to all the other authors that Tolkien inspired, there is shit in all branches of human knowledge science,philosophy, music,etc. it is normal that some of the books are pure shit, you know shit happens; but when the praised authors from the genre are kinda lame too, you are like wtf what happened here? how did such a great idea turned into shit?
I may have some ideas to answer this question, one of the is that, literature is not about building worlds or creating magic systems, it's about saying something, something that is making conflicts in the depth of your soul, something that reflects a bit part of us humans, because what is troubling you may be troubling many others like you. Wait a freakin minute you may be thinking, there is trouble between empire Poop and empire Crap in these books, or you have this freakin gay trouble when a evil villain that is tryin to control all the universe because he has the biggest cock in the world and the one day the hero of the prophecy appears, who has tiniest cock, but one magic day he realizes he doesnt, so he kills the villian because he fucked him so hard. There is trouble in there, faggot trouble but conflict indeed. I would respond you sayin that youre right just calm down a bit, there's is conflict, but my point is that, when you read these epic fantasy stories these authors are more focused in telling you in every fucking detail something like "Behold the universe i created, behold all the violence and wars it has", as reader i am really not to much interested in that, if you created a universe to emulate the nature of wars, adding details that some how tell you something like "behold how humans slay themselves by senseless reasons bringing woe and death to innocent people" wouldnt be better? or how about writing about a nation (USA) that is makin stupid wars to control the main resource of the set (oil) but in a "middle earth land"? I am just typing the first thing that came across my mind, but you get the idea.

>>6535833
I just finished writing one

>>6534024
>Tolkien's books were a smash hit at the time theyt came out
Actually they weren't, nobody really cared when they came out. They got mass appeal in the sixties when hippies and such found them.

>>6535176
The community is pretty split on him but anything by ADB is worthwhile, he's fantastic at capturing the dark, twisted horrors of the warp. Also his black templar books are God-Tier Science fantasy.

>>6537172

nice; i'm 30,000 words into my own rendition. it's a fun theme.

>>6535688
You basically just described 90% of anime

>>6535833
There are plenty of those.

>>6535833
>a mostly average person (who stays mostly average) caught up in world events

You just described Mordant's Need

>>6534473
>>6535688

>CAS
>Vance
>lieber
>lovecraft
>sci fi in general

>a power fantasy

Some poor dirtbag motherfucker tries to rob an old temple, then a giant goat lizard demon from space shows up and eats earth

sure, thats a power fantasy all right :^)

>>6534634

>literally soap opera tier

Why is that a bad thing?

The books are supposed to be mystery/intrigue/politics/who-does-khalesi-hook-up-with-this-week, not fantasy

And they do a good job at that

Kingkiller is good. I know I'm right.

Good thread. Malazan is better than you would think, by miles.

>>6534443
You need to check out Fritz Leiber man. He's tied with Howard as best S&S writer IMO

>>6538157
Nice going. Mine happens to be finished AT 30,000 words

What's it about? Tell me about your story.

>>6538345
Agreed.

Read the fucking book/s before you sprout your misinformed ideas on them, faggots.

>>6533585
Does Michael Moorcock count as "epic fantasy"? Because he's fucking amazing.

>>6538332
It's entertaining
But it could be better
Either way I'm eagerly waiting for doors of stone

>>6534813
>Kingkiller
Thank fucking baby jesus that this tripe was designated as shit right off the bat.

Kvothinator fans on /lit/ are akin to FFXIV fans on /v/.

>>6534956
Hey hi.

Who is the Miyazaki of fantasy literature?

Malazan is god tier and if you disagree you're stupid.

You are allowed to dislike the books, but you are not allowed to call them bad, in the same way that I'm now allowed to call the beatles bad because I don't enjoy their music.

>>6539358
that I'm not*

>>6539358
Beatles are bad, but I enjoy their music.
Malazan is garbage that I don't enjoy.

>>6539330
Someone answer this plz

>>6539385
OSC
Because both have only one good work.

>>6539358
>Genre Fiction

m8 it's bad

>>6533585
Well Tolkien does suck, and GURM.... he sucks for having ppl waiting.

I do like Malazan and a few other "epic" fantasy, but your pic sucks ass. Anyone who reads fantasy books with a Terry as the author should follow in the ways of DFW.

/lit/ babby here meaning I haven't read much, but I find R.A. Salvatore's work to be very good.

Finished the Icewind Trilogy, and now I'm reading parths of darkness.

I really like it.

>>6539429
So you like Malazan but disregard most of the rest... I too like Malazan, sort of, but I'm interested in why you actually like Malazan while you consider the rest as trash.

Can I hear your thoughts on what sets Malazan apart? Just interested to hear.

>>6539330
Tolkien. Praised by the masses, not bad but not the Godlike figure many believe him to be.

>>6539469
From what OP posted, I'm giving my opinion.
Mind you, it's not my opinion on the entire genre

Also I'm listfag... can post my list if you want..

>>6535833
LOTR

>>6539450
I'm sorry. I enjoyed those books as well, when I was a young child.

At least you don't like Name of the Wind!