/lit/ - Literature

Well you see, there's not much competition in the States.

>>6499505
From what i've seen on /lit/ Moby Dick is very well liked.

I finished this about 4 months ago, and, if i'm honest, i really wasn't mind blown. The beginning was very very engaging and had great character development, however as i got to the end i found myself wondering what the purpose of much of it was.

>/lit/, should I read it again? will it help me to appreciate this novel more.

A large amount of my appreciation for Moby Dick is in Ishmael himself - he's a such a genuine and engaging personality that he can discuss anything and make it valuable and interesting.
There's always that group who talks about the chapters on anatomy and how frustrating they are.
Reading through it the first time, I hardly even distinguished between the narrative and these breaks. They were just as compelling and interesting as anything else.

Also, the book works as both a singularly exciting and intriguing adventure in narrative just as well as it functions as a brilliant metaphor that elucidates the struggle at the heart of human existence.

>>6499843
I'm reading it right now, and I have to agree with this. Even the boring parts are intriguing somehow.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XIoAYq9iD4A

>>6499843
This; Melville makes the anatomy chapters really interesting and there are not dull moments in the book. Also the chapter where Ahab is forging his harpoon in fire and lightning is truly amazing.

the soul of a genius laid bare over hundreds of pages. more or less why i love any book.

>>6499505
>Basically I just want to hear what /lit/ thinks about what makes Moby Dick so great, or not great.

Well, it's the narrative voice's almost lyric quality. Readers can see why Melville considered himself primarily a poet. And its thematic richness has few parallels.

Although I prefer The Confidence Man, a more philosophical work.

>>6499519
>Well you see, there's not much competition in the States.

What are some better novels outside the States, friend?

>>6500634
>friend
I don't know any namefags.

>>6500634
what is with the name, pal? do you think your presence deserves recognition?

>>6500665

No real need to be churlish, is there?

>>6500678
>what is with the name, pal? do you think your presence deserves recognition?

You sound strangely threatened or offended by someone signing their posts. Why is that?

>>6500693
because this is an anonymous image board and your obsession with yourself (to the point where you have to give a name to your otherwise normal posts and opinions) annoys me
namefags are almost worse than tripfags

>>6500698

Did I hurt your feelings at some point?

>>6500698
He wants attention, nothing else. Better not to give him any.

>>6500708
not that i know of
drop the name

>>6500720

We should try to get to the root of your sadness, before it deepens. When did it start?

Well, first of all, the prose is among the very best in the English language, from beginning to end. Even a shithouse looks beautiful when the bricks are gold. Secondly, the work is rich in literary and philosophy depth, from beginning to end you are submerged in references to history, the Bible, philosophy, Shakespeare, mythology, and so many other things, the book is steeped in all the shit readers of literature eat up. Thirdly, the book is peppered with sections that are plays and philosophical treatises and anecdotes; JRR Tolkien was a master worldbuilder, but Melville does the same thing: he doesn't just build the world of whaling, he builds the world of the whaler and fills it with bountiful characterization, all the while blending it with academics to create an epic work of philosophy and fiction. Adding to the list, Melville is the master of an allegory, he isn't cryptic, he is a true poet, and his work is a powerful epic as grand as the Iliad.

I really can't list all the things that make Moby Dick great, because I don't even know what half of them are. Virtually every paragraph carries enough significance for commentary thrice as long.

>>6499505
for the longest time i'd only seen sperm whales in profile and just assumed they had a square shaped foreheads. i was mightily surprised when i found out they tapered.

>>6500731
it all began when attention-seeking faggots came to /lit/
now remove the name

>>6500749
>it all began when attention-seeking faggots came to /lit/
>now remove the name

I have never once looked to see a posters name. You sound profoundly lonely.

>>6500779
just remove the name, friendo
if a poster's name is so unimportant, why are you making this so difficult?

>>6499782
> The beginning was very very engaging and had great character development, however as i got to the end i found myself wondering what the purpose of much of it was.

Well, that's perhaps one reason why it's great, it begins as a very engaging story and leads you to a conclusion that puzzles you and provokes questioning.

>>6499505
I've only read it once, as a child, and not in English (not my native language and child me didn't know any foreign language).

I remember loving it for how the whale was both close and mysterious, ever-present and elusive. There was an idea of Whale in this book, an idea of mystery, otherness and gigantism (but not in size only), that was very persasive and intriguing, but impossible to describe precisely. Like some sort of Holy Ghost, but a concrete, massively physical Holy Ghost.

In his descriptions, his ramblings, his meditations, in everything the narrator said, it was as if the Idea of Whale was there, casting a shadow over everything and making everything more intense, more important, more mysterious. I guess Melville did a good job of embodying the unseen, the fascinating and the superhuman in that whale without ever getting to show the animal itself.

>>6500796
cont'd

There's also something about the grandiose foolishness of the humans characters. As I said, I read it as a kid, so I don't remember much, but I remember a few bits.

I remember thinking that Ahab was being foolish, in a rather terrifying way, for daring to pursue the great whale, and for focusing all his energy on it (there was no way he could succceed, and even if he did ? He would have destroyed something beautiful). But foolish with a very strong, passionate, Romantic ambition. Like he Ahab was some sort of reverse Prophet. In a way wanting to kill God by your own hands is the most passionately religious conviction, it at least supposes a very strong belief in God's presence.


I also remember two parts where Ishmael expose digresses in a rather surprising way.

First is when he goes to become a crewmate on the ship, and the register guy asks him if he wants to be a part-owner. Ishmael accepts, but is told that with the money he had, he can only own a 770th of the ship.
He then proceeds to wax poetic about how 770 is a great and admirable number, truly worthy of respect, but that simply adding 'th' at the end instantly renders it ridiculous and nullifies its majesty. I remember thinking that the whole think was goofy and quite silly, but at the same time I found great that he would care to expose such a thought and spend time on it without any apology as if it really was sensible and important.
Perhaps that's because, as any child, I had had similar thought that I found very interesting for myself but that I wouldn't have dared telling to anyone for fear of being ridiculed. So there was some ballsiness in Ishmael for granting importance to this thought. I wouldn't have said such a thing, and I would have thought fun of a classmate who would have, but Ishmael doing it felt great for some reason.

Second is when he tries to guess what is the fluid that comes out of the front of whales in a geyser. Ishmael says it's probably either water of steam, but that for himself he thinks it is steam, because whale are very high-minded and elevated animals, and because producing steam is the mark of a high level of consciousness. To back up his claim, he then recount one time when he was pondering the meaning of eternity and, upon looking at himself in the mirror, saw some steam wafting up from the top of his head. At this point I thought "now this is beyond silly", but still, I grabbed the nearest pocket mirror, and stared at it while forcing myself to think about infinity, knowing full well that no steam would appear, though wanting it to happen, like a child who's stopped believing in Santa Claus but still wishes he could run into him at the corner of the street. And then I thought Ishmael was (again) ballsy for asserting dubious convictions so strongly, and also pretty smart for tricking me into looking in that mirror.

>fishertown
>schoolteacher wants to become a real man (i.e. a fisherman)
>meets very mysterious silent big foreign guy in an inn
>they sleep together
>mysterious man is very mysterious and very tall
>but he doesn't kill schoolteacher during the night
(this part was pretty good)
>whaling ship needs fishermen
>schoolteacher applies
>but they have to wait for Ahab, the captain
>Ahab is a very mysterious manly man
>Very mysterious atmosphere
>Ahab has a limp. Why?
>Mystery thickens
.
.
>wait
.
.
.
>300 pages later :
>
>plot finally start to move forward
>Ahab finally arrives.
>he's very mysterious (as mysterious as we expected)
>he has a limp and is a real man (everyone fears him)
>the fishing boat finally departs
>Ahab is very mysterious
>he never talks
>always alone in his cabin (for 150 more pages)
>the waves are billowing
>lots of synonyms for foam, billows, waves
>weak attempts at poetry
>other attempts at poetry
>
>and all of a sudden...
>
KID LITERATURE!
>
>encyclopedia about sperm whales. What they eat, their skeleton, their size, history of whaling...
>The narrator is lost, style is purely encyclopedic
>Author def. wants to impress us with all the details he knows about whales
>20 pages
>etc
>
spoilers
>The reason why Ahab doesn't talk and is always angry is because a whale he named Moby Dick swallowed his leg. Now he has an obsession, to get vengeance
>some lengthy fishing scenes : fights between whales and the fishermen
>but Ahab knows it's not Moby Dick
>weak attempts at poetry about how Moby Dick, on a deeper level, actually represents what we cannot get in life
>inbetween, the narrator once again is totally lost. Focus is lost, but the reader holds on because he still hopes to read the masterpiece he was expecting.
>
>page 600
>
>there's Moby Dick!
>
>fight with Moby Dick
(I don't even remember who wins)
>Mysterious Ahab remains puzzlingly mysterious
>inbetween, though, there was Poetry
>also, we learnt a lot about sperm whales.

TL;DR While I found the wait for Godot fascinating, the wait for Ahab is totally anticlimactic
I only read this because "Ahab" has become the name for the silent asshole in intellectual circles
I wanted to read a great portrait about a bitter, broken, violent Captain. Unfortunately, the portrait a total fail. For not trying. (I wanted to puke the hundredth time Melville, a schoolteacher, says that Ahab is "mysterious" and "silent")

recommended for :
- those who are looking for synonyms for foam, waves and billows
- schoolteachers who fantasize about fishermen's life
- children

is there any prerequisite reading required before undertaking moby dick?

>>6500804
finish'd
Finally, I also remember something the strong scary black guy says: "Whoever is afraid of dark must be afraid of me, for I'm entirely carved out of it" (I'm translating a distant memory, so not the exact wording). My instant reaction was a superposition of "nigga wat ?", "that's quite the poetic metaphor", "ok that black guy is simpleminded but somehow insightful" and "author, why are you messing with me again ?".

So I guess all those examples are illustrations of how Ahab, Ishmael and, in his own way, the black guy are grandiose fools, drawn but mysterious greatness and strongly wanting to equate themselves with it. And they bring the reader (at least they brought child me) with them in their dangerous, foolish, magnificent endeavour.

The best way to sum up my young impression is that Mody Dick as a whole is a brilliant exercise in megalomania. Mind that it is how I phrase now, at age 23, the fascination I experienced then, at aboutage ten, not how I would have phrased it back then. As you see Mody Dick made a strong impression on me, and it didn't hurt that the physical book itself was very old and very large by child me's standard (I think it was nearly as long as my forearm and almost as big as my head), thus embodying the gigantism that's a strong undercurrent of the book.

That's also why I'm afraid to reread it. I don't want to discover that finally, even in the bottom of the ocean, there can't be a Santa Claus.

>>6500811
Bible

>>6500811
I'd recommend reading the King James Bible because of how central it is, but there's an awful lot he references and is influenced by, it would be ridiculous to try to read all of it beforehand.

>>6500746
me too
great pic

>>6500819
Yes, particularly the King James, because many Biblical references he makes only work with that ("And God created great whales", "Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters", etc.)

>>6500811
>>6500827
Yeah m8 don't worry I read KJV. Also >>6500811 if you want to dive right in without reading the Bible at least read the book of Jonah; there are tons of references to it.

>>6500819
>>6500820
>>6500840
Thanks guys but I've read the bible what did you think I was some kind of heathen?

anything else?

>>6500807
are you autistic or retarded?

>>6500804
> Like he Ahab was some sort of reverse Prophet.
seems relevant

>Perhaps that's because, as any child, I had had similar thought that I found very interesting for myself but that I wouldn't have dared telling to anyone for fear of being ridiculed. So there was some ballsiness in Ishmael for granting importance to this thought
you're doing the same here, and I'll praise this for the same reason.
so much better than one-liners

>brilliant exercise in megalomania.
this
- reason why I loved American Psycho : because Bret Easton Ellis hates his character
- reason why I hated Moby Dick : because Melville, far from deconstructing the crazy asshole, admires him. To me, the novel reeks of ball sweat. The encyclopedic chapters are all but a small construction mistake. They're all part of the show big-dicked Melville is trying to put on. This book is trying to impress us. With me, it failed.

>>6500846
He references Kant, Plato, Greek mythology, several novels you probably haven't heard of (I didn't, until I read the Norton Critical Edition explaining some of his references, but even they couldn't cover nearly all of them)

"From the top of Portsdown, I, for the first time, beheld the sea, and no sooner did I behold it than I wished to be a sailor. I could never account for this sudden impulse, nor can I now. Almost all English boys feel the fame inclination : it would seem that, like young ducks, instinct leads them to rum on the bosom of the water."
-The Life and Adventures of Peter Porcupine

Shakespeare is a huge influence. Ahab is meant to be a tragic hero in the tradition of Shakespeare, and Melville certainly highlights this by writing several sections as plays, and having Ahab deliver Shakespearean soliloquies (which works with the language because Ahab is a Quaker).

Too much to list, alas, too much to list. But the Bible is the major thing, and I'd say you're ready for it if you've read that.

>>6500794
>just remove the name, friendo
>if a poster's name is so unimportant, why are you making this so difficult?

The thing about names line is, you fill it in once and it stays there in every new reply box. I can't really be bothered to delete it.

>>6500905
yeah keep it, brah
don't believe newfags theories about the spirit of 4chinz.

>>6500905
delete it once and it stays gone until you put it back in

>>6500869
Well Ahab isn't a personification of yuppies, let alone a wealthy psychopath serial killer completely fixated on the superficial. Ahab is religious, hardworking Quaker who is impelled by fate. He is an "ungodly, god-like man" who baptizes his harpoon in the name of the Devil, and yet maintains his religious convictions in regard to slavery.

Ahab isn't really comparable to Patrick Bateman, they're pretty much exact opposites.

>>6500807
(...) << I decided to go to the heart of the American classical canon and picked Moby Dick by Herman Melville. I was expecting a rip-roaring adventure on the high seas with adventure, atmospheric/moody descriptions, and a slice-of-life from a very specific time in American history.

<< I’m not the biggest fan of academic supposition so I tried to read Moby Dick as a novel; a straight-up, fiction story. It started quickly and got me hooked (see what I did there) but quickly turned into an interminable scientific description of EVERYTHING whales/whaling. I’m not talking about a few paragraphs talking about the size of a whale… I’m talking about chapters and chapters of whale physiological minutia. I guess this was necessary when it came out since very few people had actually SEEN a whale or were even aware of whale generalities… but I would say about 84% of the book was irrelevant scientific taxonomy. But, MAN, can I now tell you about whale skeletons and epidermal layers.

funthingstodowhileyourewaiting.com/2013/02/06/readin-the-classics-moby-dick-total-bait-and-switch/

>>6500869
Well Ahab isn't a personification of yuppies, let alone a wealthy psychopath serial killer completely fixated on the superficial. Ahab is religious, hardworking Quaker who is impelled by fate. He is an "ungodly, god-like man" who baptizes his harpoon in the name of the Devil, and yet maintains his religious convictions in regard to slavery.

Ahab isn't really comparable to Patrick Bateman, in fact I'd say they're antipodes.

>>6500936
interesting
Ahab indeed appears as a romantic asshole, while Bateman would be more the stupid asshole
but from a pure literary pov, I was disappointed that there weren't more pages about Ahab's motives and history. I felt he remains forever distant. Maybe because we're never really in his head, as would be the case in a 1st person novel.

>>6500963
"Asshole" is a very poor characterization of Ahab. Ahab is implement of fate and is self-aware of that, he espouses and idea of reality similar to eternal recurrence. Ahab has no choice in his fate, and toward the end he is sorrowful about it, but for the sake of Pip and his crew rather than himself. But don't forget that most of Ahab's crew is completely complacent and even supportive of his fanatical crusade. It is all of their fate, again and again. The only one board who isn't part of that fate is Ishmael, the outsider, similar to the Kid in Blood Meridian (and don't forget the Judges words to the Kid regarding this).

>>6500988
well it just didn't work for me
might have been different had I read it in college, taking more time to read the poetry and Ahab's soliloquials which I only vaguely remember now.
maybe Melville is my Moby Dick
seems to trigger me easy.

>>6500933
>whales are a fish
>whales will never be threatened by extinction
>the united states is destined to conquer the savage nation of mexico
>signed hermie melville

>>6501024
>whales are a fish
REEEEEE!

>>6501024
Melville is representing the world of whaling through the eyes of whalers as told by an academic

>>6500894
thanks m8 wish me luck.

>>6501108
R?

Wasn't someone with a pissy attitude about American novels going to suggest some better ones from other countries?

it's worth reading even if only for the scene when the negro servant is shouting at the sharks, and when Queequeg decides "actually, no i'm not going to die yet"

my ffffffucking sides, melville

>>6499519
Bullshit, easily the best novel written in the 19th century.