/lit/ - Literature

No

>>6493279
Opposable thumbs
big brains

Not the only thing

>>6493289
Is there any meaning and/or intention behind this painting?

>>6493296
chimps, some monkeys, and pandas have opposable thumbs. Even if they didn't, I don't see a physical difference separates us from animals. There's vast physical differences among animals. As for the brain size, it is not relative to intelligence, and loads of large animals such as elephants and whales have bigger brains

>>6493289
yes?

>>6493289

>>6493289
more

>>6493289
even more

>>6493289
>>6493318
>>6493322
>>6493327
>>6493328
Trash art.

>>6493311
It indicates the struggles of being a chimp (look at the hard-pressed brush strokes.)

>>6493335

>>6493330
Clear pleb. Why do people like you exist?

>>6493279
Politics is

>>6493318
>>6493322
>>6493327
>>6493328
>>6493331
>>6493334
I certainly hope you're not trying to imply that the above posted are somehow more valid as 'art' than >>6493289

Because they're not. Aesthetics is irrelevant to the validity of something.

>>6493279
No, what about ambition

>>6493345
To keep untermenschen like you in check.

>>6493351
Ambition seems like quite a primal instinctive thing

>>6493350
WTF are you even talking about. Rethink your thinking.

>>6493279
Nope. The only difference between us and animals is our ability to consciously curtail our infliction of suffering on other animals.

>>6493357
It still raises us above animals though

>>6493279
>separates us from animals
Why the desire to be separate?

>>6493279
>Is art the only thing that separates us from animals?
no

What separates us is our hability to modulate our senses, it is our reflexivity, to which the highest degree is our hability to be enlighten like a buddha.

>>6493360
How

>>6493279
Our ability to have extra-somatic knowledge separates us from the animals. This allows us to pass on knowledge not only genetically but also through writing, drawing and shit.
This allows us to advance technologically because we don't have to start from scratch and re-discover what our ancestors have already discovered.

>>6493361
Because animals are pleb, people are patrician. I want to be patrician

>>6493361
Almost everything we do as humans serves to separate ourselves from animals and assert that separation

>>6493279
>>6493359
The only difference between us and other animals is that we lock up the food, and restrict other species' access to it, even when we aren't currently eating it.

>>6493367
Some apes have that ability as well

>>6493368
Animals are patrician. Well, some of them.

>>6493358
D-d-d-did I stutter, anon?

I assume you (or whoever) posted a collection of artistic pieces in response to the chimp art as a way of saying that the art of an animal (essentially just some paint on a canvas) is somehow less valid as an expression of art than a purty picture.

Therefore anon is also discounting Pollock, Rothko and even Warhol as artists for not conforming to that narrow, aesthetic definition of art. So which is it? Either the chimp's painting is art, or a huge swathe of the most celebrated artists of all time are not producing art. You can't have both.

Animals don't know >tfw no gf

>>6493377
Did you finish highschool yet anon?

>>6493372
But insects? Also mammals that hibernate and lay in supplies for winter?

>>6493377
>Pollock, Rothko, Warhol
>art

top kek

>>6493368
Tigers and Lions are patrician

>>6493279
probably not

>>6493375
Animals are pleb as fuck. I say 'hi' to my dog, she wags her tail. I say 'fuck you' to my dog, she wags her tail. Don't get me wrong, my dog is based as fuck and I'll be sad as hell when she dies but she is one of the biggest plebs I know. I try talking to her about 'The Sound and the Fury' and she just walks away, disdainforplebs.rtf

>>6493383
Attack my argument, anon. Don't attack me.
oh wait you can't

>>6493373
In what form?

I don't mean verbal communication, it has to be stored completely outside of the body, information that is transmitted verbally is stored in the brain before being spoken.

Extra somatic knowledge transforms a species from being a space centric species to a time centric species. In 'inferior' beings the only ways to evolve are either through genetic mutations (etc) or by moving to a different location. Humans are 'time based' because evolution (mental, technological etc etc) isn't necessarily linked to location or environment but rather on knowledge accumulated by ancestors and what is build-able upon (and from) that knowledge.

>>6493385
Your personal taste does not define art.

Humans are the only animal with infinite language recursion.

>>6493384
You'll find that squirrels don't actually kill each other over food, and often forget where they even hid their nuts. They certainly don't worry about protecting them.

Hibernating animals eat a lot and sleep for months... I'm not understanding the reference.

>>6493390
The other day I was looking at my dog and said "if you come to me right now I will take you for a walk". I've tried this a few times offering treats and shit but never a walk, and in the past the dog has never responded except for looking at me and tilting its head. This time however the dog walked right over to me and placed its head on my lap.
I was surprised but also disappointed because I felt as if I now had to take my dog for a walk. I didn't take him for a walk and I still feel kind of bad about the whole situation.

>>6493383
>being the first to bring up age
always a dead giveaway as to who is actually the kid

>>6493402
>I was surprised but also disappointed because I felt as if I now had to take my dog for a walk. I didn't take him for a walk and I still feel kind of bad about the whole situation.
In this situation, you are the pleb.

>>6493402
>didn't take the dog for a walk

Man, what kind of monster are you? Plebs leading the plebs in your household

>>6493399
You're right anon, I mixed up hibernation and hoarding. My badsies.

But to elaborate, there are lots of animals that hoard food and protect it against others (with the general idea that they'll eat it at some time in the future) so I'm not sure if that's a strong definition between humanity and the animal kingdom.

>>6493408
Yeah I know...
In my defence I hadn't showered.
Also dog walking isn't my responsibility in the household. I clean up the table post-dinner and share marijuana (which I purchase) with anyone that wants.

>>6493415
Doesn't matter anon, you gave that dog your fucking word. Your word is your bond as a human being.

Also not showering is the best time to get all sweaty going for a walk.

>>6493413
>animals that hoard food and protect it against others
Examples?

>>6493416
Yeah...
What can I do to make it up to the dog besides walking him (because I really dislike walking him)?
Yesterday I gave him some of my sausage, I think he liked that but I can't be sure. He just sits there wanting more and when you give him more he just gobbles it up and continues to sit there, looking at you. Do dogs even taste things? Do dogs have a preference for sausages over beef or vice-versa? How would you know?

I suppose you could feed the dog until he was full then place both sausages and beef on the floor and see which he eats first. Reminds me of that donkey thought experiment where the donkey dies of hunger because he can't decide what to eat first.

>>6493318
Woah. This just encompasses, like, it all.

>>6493392
I don't remember the specifics, but I watched a nature docu in which orang utans tought their offspring how to hunt with spears, make umbrellas out of leaves, and some other shit like that

>>6493424
Sausages are full of fat and really, really bad for dogs. Just walk the poor bastard. He'll become your best friend and you'll get exercise and vitamin D from sunlight.

>>6493394
>responding to obvious bait

>>6493394
Your degenerate view of human greatness has no affect on the Vatican being "equal" to rothko.

relativists should burn

>>6493428
Yeah but that's different. In order to improve upon what has already been built the ape would have to learn directly from the parent/guardian ape then practice until he was as good as if not better at the task (or whatever) than his teacher.
With extra-somatic knowledge you can write down umbrella making techniques then give it to some other random individual without teaching him. Makes learning much faster and allows for theoretical understanding of what you're doing rather than just a practical knowledge. I'm not an expert on the subject. Carl Sagan talks about this stuff at the beginning of "Demon Haunted World" I think.

>>6493429
When I take him for a walk he always runs away and I can't get the leash back on. He once stole this girl's packet of meat on the beach and ran around with it tearing the packet and throwing meat all around the beach. I was really embarrassed and the girl just ignored me when I offered to buy her another one.

>>6493443
Oh you mean like instructions and shit
I don't know if any animals do that, you've got me

>>6493443
Who sits around on beaches eating packets of meat? Where the fuck do you live?

>>6493413
You missedthe bit where we decide that we own certain plants and even other animals, and restrict the access of other species to them for food.

>>6493279

It's our higher intellect which separates us from animals (but "higher" doesn't necessarily mean "better," since I'd say that it doesn't do us much good).

I'd argue, though, that we're still animals—it's just that we're 'different' from other species, and have a different footing within the natural world, since our advanced intellect brings about certain faculties which are unique to us: self-awareness, self-reflection, a consciousness of time, abstract thought, language, etc. And these things separate us from other animals, because they endow us with certain abilities: namely, the ability to create.

It gets tricky here, of course, because one could point out the following flaw in this line of thinking: that if a person is injured or diseased, and has significantly diminished intelligence, are they no longer a human being because of their non-intellectual, non-reflective state? I currently don't know how to answer this question.

>>6493448
Billtong, dried meat like beef jerky. Living in South Africa at the moment. It's ok but I don't really know anyone here so I spend most of my free time smoking weed and reading random stuff from The Game to "Philosophie dans le boudoir" (Sade).

>>6493449
your post made me think of something else that separates us from animals.
Using a word to define an object/entity. We use the world 'table' for example and it defines the thing. If we didn't have the word 'table' we'd call it a raised flat surface or something. But because of the word table it's no longer a 'raised flat surface' it's now a table. I'm already high so not explaining myself well. I'm trying to refer to general semantics and the whole 'the map is not the territory' thing. Someone more knowledgable/intelligent than me please help.

>>6493443
>With extra-somatic knowledge you can write down umbrella making techniques then give it to some other random individual without teaching him. Makes learning much faster and allows for theoretical understanding of what you're doing rather than just a practical knowledge. I'm not an expert on the subject. Carl Sagan talks about this stuff at the beginning of "Demon Haunted World" I think.


paper is just a support for memory, but yeah they do not have paper yet

>>6493622
or do they...

>>6493622
Yeah exactly! Paper is an extra-somatic (outside of the body) memory support. That kind of extra-somatic memory support is what separates us from the animals.

>>6493691
well if we gave them paper then they would have paper but they wouldn't know what to do with it. Therefore they wouldn't really 'have' paper because they don't have the definition for the word paper.

>>6493596
I think what you are talking about is naming. Which has often been seen as magical.
Also something about your post reminds me of "Embassytown"... I think you migt enjoy it, and it might flesh out the thought you are expressing.

>>6493711
That's completely different and you know it. Humans taught the elephant to paint, and it's not art, it's a memorised sequence of movements. Well I can't be certain because I don't know what the elephant is thinking but yeah.

>>6493731
I'll definitely check it out, thanks for the recommendation.

>>6493747
>Rembrandt was never taught how to paint.

Yeah. What about this, fag?

>>6493702
No I mean who knows, maybe animals do have some sort of paper or something like that
Something to leave behind messages, directions perhaps etc

>>6493755
yeah painters were taught but it's not the same thing. Artists use creativity to create unique pieces. This elephant has just been taught to manipulate the brush and paints the same thing all day.

That pic is actually really cool and I'm saving it, not going to lie. I still don't think it's art (assuming it was created by animals). Nests and things are really cool structures and it's fucking incredible how small-brained animals have evolved to be able to do this shit without all of that extra-somatic knowledge we were talking about earlier. But that's all they are, the same way as a spider's web isn't art.

>>6493311

>brain size is not relative to intelligence

o i am laffin
on second thought maybe it isn't you fucking 'tard

>>6493596
Where in South Africa? I'm in Mozambique, sup neighbor.

>>6493780
The bower bird is different from a spider, it creates these nests to attract a mate, the female bird judges the work of the male aesthetically, based on various factors. The nest itself serves no practical value. If you look at art as a way of commenting on the world, the nest serves a self-portrait, reflecting the bird's abilities and traits.

>>6493772
animals have been studied by zoologists for centuries. I personally don't know of any evidence for messages (that would give knowledge to the reader) imprinted onto things that survive the death of their creator in any animals.
>>6493755
also not a fag btw. Promise.

>>6493702
>well if we gave them paper then they would have paper but they wouldn't know what to do with it. Therefore they wouldn't really 'have' paper because they don't have the definition for the word paper.
just like if we were given , out of the blue, something that we have no idea what to do with until we take our time to figure it out.

We're still very close to chimpanzees.

>>6493279
Two things, self-awareness, and the ability to put reason/intellect above and/or in control of emotion.

>>6493811
>>6493811

>using a bunch of broken eggs to attract a mate

what a cheeky fucker
or insane psychopath

>>6493839

no we aren't
we're nothing like them

>>6493279
no. but it is interesting that we're the only self aware and dynamic creatures on this planet (both have to do with art I guess). even if other creatures were (and it's reasonably debatable for sure) it's nowhere near the level that man is (and it's not debatable as it's the most obvious thing on this planet).

>>6493811
oh wow that is some seriously impressive stuff right there! I'm bookmarking the wiki page for later.
I should say that this just another evolution of an animal society. That while you say the nest serves no purpose it is in fact simply a processus in the mating ritual. A highly evolved, and beautiful, form of mate-attraction similar to the spreading of a peacock's feathers. Art is different because it isn't needed in any such way. The size of an artwork, in contrast to the size of a mound of shells, isn't proportional to the ability of the artist or the quality of the artwork.

Anyway I concede that it's amazing.

>>6493824
Yeah exactly. But imagine if I gave my dog a clothe's line. How long would it take him to use it for what it was designed to do? His whole species would have to evolve over millions of years to invent clothes, then the principal of washing them (which probably doesn't take too long to figure out), and then finally hanging them out to dry. Not mentioning inventing textiles and all that etc..
>>6493839
Maybe in genetical terms or whatever yeah. But I'd say we're pretty different.

>>6493809
I think you might be literally (literally) retarded

>>6493882

How are you going to say brain size has nothing to do with intelligence

>>6493889
Then how come whales are so dumb?
Protip: It ain't about size.

Humans possess a theory of mind. No other animal has this. This means that we are aware of differences in individual perspectives and access to information. Most humans pass the sally and an test around 3-5 years old, no animal has ever past this. The only animals capable of having the test communicated to them, coco and other apes who understand sign, all give the answer a 2 year old would give.

>>6493904

It is
Brain size to body ratio

maybe you heard of it?

>>6493914
Then how come small ants, tree shrews, and small brids are so dumb?
Protip: It's not about brain to body mass ratio.

>>6493944
it's about size again then.

>>6493881
>Art is different because it isn't needed in any such way.
you do not know this
art could be useful (also nobody knows what art is),

if anything, it prevent us from boredom, which so few people can handle.

>>6493967
It's the size of the cerebral cortex relative to the rest of the brain. Something about how we cook our food allowed our brains to evolve in that manner very quickly (relatively speaking) and it is the cerebral cortex which is responsible for things like language. I'm fuzzy on the precise details but you can find this information easily. There was even a ted talk on it.

>>6493944
>small ants
>dumb

Also, the combination of a quite low brain to body ratio and high neuronal density = what makes us that intelligent.

>>6493279
The biggest separation from animals comes from the human ability to consciously maintain patterns of behavior independent from our instinctive urges.

Art is one expression of this ability, but it also includes ascetic practices, scientific study, religious belief, suicide, and so forth.

>>6493279

This is essentially Chesterton's argument and it's actually deeply compelling.

See The Everlasting Man and Orthodoxy. Honestly it's one of the more unique and intriguing attempts to reconcile Orthodoxy in the modern world. Chesterton wasn't a theologian, but he was pretty damn convincing. Even if you don't agree with his conclusions, he's a highly engaging and entertaining thinker.

>>6493279
the idea of species separates man from animals

the ego of man requires this separation

As far as I'm convinced we are just animals with intelligence pushed to 11.

>>6495750
Looks interesting, I'll check him out

>>6493279
morality is

>>6496050
what's morality

>>6493989
Which is all I ever meant. Thank you, anon.

Yes, we're animals, but very odd higher thinking animals. Obviously. This is what separates us. Weird squishy concepts like art and morality.

>>6493279
Pattern recognition sufficiently advanced to develop a model of the world containing the self. That is all.

First, sorry for bad english, it's not my "native" language...

>>6493911
I doubt so, I can think right now of Corvidae, but a lot of others may apply for it

>>6496841
I don't think art and morality could separate us that simply... If you can find them in other animals, it's problematic.

In fact, what's bugging me in this is that we're searching for a difference that we suppose beforehand. And whenever something doesn't make a difference anymore, quick, we should find another thing.

I'm not saying there's no difference between humans and the others animals, that would be stupid. The list of differences is endless, just like there's an endless list of differences between a sea cucumber, a parrot or a paramecium.

Hence my asking : what are we really searching when we believe we're searching the difference between humans and the entire rest of the immense animal variety? Because the question of "animal/human difference" is not as natural as it sounds, some peoples do not ask it that way (I think Descola's work is quite enlightening on this)
What I truly believe is that it could be a very specific and local question to organize a "Us/Them" differentiation pattern. To say it harshly, that 2400 years of occidental philosophy are just a way to deal with it

>>6496132
The phenomenon where we decide what ought to be, based on what is. Animals have no such thing. They don't shape and build their world like humans, animals live by inertion.

>>6493279
Why did I read 'animals' as 'amerifats'?

>>6497483
Because they're synonymous

>your taste in art is shit
>my dog is pleb pls help me lit
>semantiiiics
This is the best thread I've seen in weeks.

Also, speaking of dogs, sometimes I think my Terrier really understands the shit I say. I mean, he reacts to orders of course, as dogs do, but sometimes he seems to understand more than just the couple of "catchwords".
I guess I'm just denying that he's a huge pleb in actuality, since dogs more or less lack the capacity for higher thinking. Still.

>mfw I regularly have intellectual discussions with my dog

Pets are only plebs if their owners are

pic related, it's my patrician dog

>>6497558
Nice dog.
But check mine.

What style is this pepe in?
pls respond

There's also the State, OP

>>6495776
yeah, those elephants are coached to draw those paintings. they're not doing it out of their own volition

>>6493279
were all animals

art is joke

>>6493809
Brain size does not correlate with intelligence. Brain density does.

A whale may have a larger brain, but it is nowhere near as dense as a human brain. Human brains are absolutely packed with neurons and cells and whatnot, whereas whale's brains may be bigger but they are significantly less populated. Think of it this way: If you took a whale brain and human brain and spread them out flat so that each 'neuron' or whatever was an equal distance apart from the next (if that's even possible), then you'd suddenly find that the human brain covers an immensely larger area than the whale's. All that brain substance is simply packed into a tighter area than a whale's is.

Do you self a favour and look up brain density or something.

>>6493311
>As for the brain size, it is not relative to intelligence, and loads of large animals such as elephants and whales have bigger brains
It's about brain size relative to body size, silly. The larger your brain compared to the rest of your body, the smarter you are.

For example, the brain of a crow is much smaller than that of a dog, but compared to it's body size it's relatively much later, which leads to crows being much smarter than dogs.

All the highly intelligent animals like humans, corvids, chimps and dolphins have consistently high brain to body size ratios.

>>6497740
Why is this? Curious.

>>6497746
Just think of it as an allocation of resources giving an appropriate output. If your brain is 10% of your body weight, its going to use more than if your brain weighs 5%. (Although i suspect its more of an exponential relationship than 10% using twice as much)

>>6497692
Post-Impressionist

How 'bout this?

>>6497581
looks like he's plotting to kill you

>>6497427
>If you can find them in other animals, it's problematic.
How is it problematic? They've probably evolved just watching they way we do things. (In some things, not that bird above)

>what are we really searching when we believe we're searching the difference between humans and the entire rest of the immense animal variety?
Just checkin' our junk out. We question things as a challenge. So do some animals of course, but we obviously can and do put more thought into it.

>>6493697
Pheromone remains

>>6493421
Eusocial insects

>>6493911
Autists fail the Sally-Anne test though

>>6493279
We are animals you goon.

>>6493811
>it creates these nests to attract a mate
>The nest itself serves no practical value
Which one is it?

>>6497943
The nest doesnt produce money. Not practical.

>>6497881
Nah, I feed him great stuff and have a great garden he can run around in.
I thought it's only cats who constantly plot to murder you.

>>6497974
Are you a Jew? Is your dog a proud Aryan hound?

>>6493842
>self-awareness
Dolphins are self-aware too
>the ability to put reason/intellect above emotions
We can't. Everything we do is the result of our emotional thinking. Shitty heuristics evolved from early primates is not reason.

>>6493318
>>6493279
>>6493322
>>6493328
>>6493331
>>6493334

Why do you call kitsch art?
Why the fuck would you post kitsch?

>>6498026
Didn't mean to reply to Rembrandt

>>6498012
I'm a Catholic, my dog is a Western Highland Terrier. He's got a Jewish name, though, Ludwig.
Well, not explicitly Jewish, but named after a Jew.

>>6498033
Sure thing bud.

>>6493853
Time to go get glasses bro; those are snail shells.

>>6493438
>relativists should burn
>posts subjective opinion

>>6497737
what if there was an animal that had 100 billion neurons (more than a human) would you consider it to have a higher mind?

only humans really use two feet the way we do afaik

i mean some other things kind of fuck around with the whole bipedal thing but we have it more or less on lock

i like to give deflationary answers

Semantics

>>6493279
reason, freewill

>>6498141
>posting a faggot only a normie could love

>>6500439
>normie
I'm sure you'll find someone anon, keep trying.