/lit/ - Literature

1. Sex change operation. Works every time.

2. No.

3. Sex change operation.

/thread

>>6459603
What?

The Judge is a child rapist and murderer. You are not meant to convinced by his arguments.

While I do agree that war endures and will always play a (unfortunately major) role in the course of humanity, I don't think war can nor should be put on the pedestal on which the Judge is putting it. >>6459627
Like this anon said, he's, while being by far the most intelligent and articulate member of the group, still a cold blooded murderer so his line of reasoning should be taken with a grain of salt.

>>6459627
Judge Holden's actions aren't simple minded. His actions are justified according to his philosphy. For you to simy disregard the merit of his philosphy based off of his actions( which he justifies in the book) is very unintelligent and foolish. "This man holding this particular arrangement of cards in his hands is thereby removed from existence. This is the nature of war, whose stake is at once the game and the authority and the justification. Seen so,war is the truest form of divination."

>>6459685
Simply*

>>6459577

The Judge was a bummer boy and his philosophy was flimsy and entirely contextual both historically and socially.

The idea that one who lives in the present day and age in this modern era of ours should subscribe to it or revere it in any way is simply unintelligent and foolish.

>>6459710
Can you please educate me on how is philosphy Is "entirely contextual both historically and socially." War has happened since the very beginnings of mankind, different hunter gatherer tribes used to kill each other. The judge has studied this through the remains of their civilizations and concluded war has and always will be a force to reckon with. I don't think his philosphy is only seen in certain contexts, but can be seen in all contexts.

>>6459685
The author had clear intentions with making the Judge a murderer and rapist or children; he is meant to be a heinous and evil character. If you seriously think the point of the book is to convince people of the merits of war through the words of a child killer, you are simply wrong.

>>6459736
>hunter gatherer tribes
That's a contradiction. Hunter-gatherers weren't organized in tribes, and they did not wage war.
War came later.

>>6459765
>laughinganthropologist.gif

>>6459765
War did not come later. It was always here waiting for us, the ultimate game awaiting its ultimate practitioner. war was a driving force of evolution, from the very beginnings of prokaryotic bacteria to more complex eukaryotic bacteria to more complex life such as the very first small fish all the way to human life. Also, stop with the trivial textbook definitions and stay on the topic of his philosphy. Not to mention I'm not convinced that's even technically correct as a quick Google search led me to find anthropologists referring to them as "hunter-gatherer tribes".

>>6459817
>dat appeal to nature

If war is as old as the oldest organism (which in itself is debatable because the word "war" implies some organization, more than fighting), then cooperation is too - look at Volvox, or the endosymbiont hypothesis.

The judge is a supernatural psychopath who can't die and takes great sadistic and spiritual relish in causing bloodshed and rape, including through getting other people to participate. Unless you meet most of that criteria, his philosophy isn't going to be applicable.

>>6459843
ok, I dislike the judge a great deal, his actions in the book are extremely brutal and evil. However, it is insufficient reasoning to say that he is wrong just based off of those actions. The true way to defeat Judge Holden is to present a philosophial counter arguement or atleast break his down. So far I've failed to see even one argument against his philosphy that isn't "HURR DURR you do bad things therefor everything you say is bad HURR durr."

The bit about him writing down rocks and shit and not allowing anything to exist without his knowledge is the most important aspect about him and what he's supposed to "represent." Who gives a shit that he killed people.

>>6459891
I.E. everyone in this thread so far. Topkek.

>>6459909
This. absolutemoralityfags ITT missing the forest for the trees as usual. Blood meridian was wasted on most of you.

>>6459891
To get some decent responses, first summarize the Judge's 'philosophy'. It's been awhile since I've read Blood Meridian. Not everyone can remember all the details.

>>6459909
Lol. Yes, and he carries out this task of being properly Suzerain of the earth how?

>>6459891
The true way to defeat the Judge is to kill him, but since he's fictional and can't die, that wouldn't work.

The Judge is like cancer or AIDS, the idea of trying to defeat cancer or AIDS philosophically is a bit silly. Just because he's sentient doesn't change his existence by solely and inextricably linked with and about causing pain and suffering. He's a metaphysical personification, like death, it would be like trying to be death philosophically.

>>6460028
so killing someone invalidates their philosophy?

Everyone ITT should read "Gravers False and True", it's a great essay on Holden.

>>6460033
Christ doesn't really count, I mean, he didn't stay dead and dying was an integral part of the whole plan.

>>6460028
>>6460033

Remember how Holden says nothing can be permitted to live without his knowledge and consent? I think that's what the epilogue of the BM was all about the people driving holes in the ground for the telegraph posts that'll provide knowledge to all and deny Holden's power of manipulation and control of knowledge, defeating him.

>>6459824

This is why I couldn't take the philosophy of the book too seriously. There was no antithesis. Where were the cooperators? The helpers? I agree that we've had a warlike nature bred into us by natural selection, but no more than we've had a cooperative nature bred into us at the exact same time. Consider what an army is.

>>6460055
>was getting caught a part of your plan

>>6459932
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=TIQynsWpBpQ
this video and this quote give you a basic understanding of what he says. A lot more in the book however. "The man who believes that the secrets of the world are forever hidden lives in mystery and fear. Superstition will drag him down. but the man who sets himself the task of singling out the thread from the tapestry will by the decision alone have taken charge of the world and it is only by such taking charge that he will effect a way to dictate the terms of his own fate." Also, " the freedom of birds is an insult to me. I'd have them all in zoos"

>>6460109
>There was no antithesis.

Wasn't that the point?

Complacency in the face of evil is bad and such

>>6460074
Remember how there are people being manipulated, raped, and murdered all around the world every hour every day? The judge is dancing,dancing he says he'll never die.

>>6460173
Yep, he'll be dancing for a long time to come too.

>>6460109
This by no means invalidates Judge Holden. Just because you can observe pack animals cooperating with each other does not mean that warfare is non existent within that group. Consider the alpha males of lions who kill the offspring of other males, they then have to work together to hunt the children of other species for consumption who will be turned into nothing but a piece of shit in the Sahara desert somewhere. Those that fought those that did not. Also, an army is just a bunch of humans unanimously subscribing to thr nature of warfare.

>>6460142

If you're gonna dissect the book like a piece of philosophy- like McCarthy "has something to say"- then he needs to address counterpoints, otherwise the argument is weak.

I don't think he had anything to say, though. He just wanted to personify war as a character in a story.

>>6460226
Baiting level over 9000.

>>6460204
From what has been said in this thread it seems that the Judge's "philosophy" consists of the fact that war is inherent to human nature, which is an indisputable fact, but it doesn't constitute a whole philosophy. Nor does it morally justify war.

I find the Judge is an interesting character, but saying that war is inherent to Man, and "unavoidable" as if it's a recurring natural disaster, is hardly new.
Ernst Jünger wrote pretty much the same things about war a hundred years ago.

>>6460253
The Judge would like to have a word with you regarding 'morals'.

>>6460226
That's the point. There is no answer to Holden, or war. And as long as there isn't an answer he'll continue dancing.

Also you're probably right about McCarthy not having anything to say. Maybe he intended for the reader to be the one who tries to reason against Holden.

>>6460033
It cuts short their destructive tendencies, unless of course they become a martyr.

You don't demolish the Judge's philosophy anymore than you demolish the philosophy of a wildfire.

>>6460074
Technology serves the judge. He is the incarnation of war like the grim reaper is the incarnation of death. Technology might combat pestilence and famine, but not the other two horsemen.

Reject the Will. But also differentiate the soul from its antagonist, the natural world, with some kind of Gnostic or Platonic philosophy.

>>6460226
Blood Meridian is a dark deconstruction (yes, that's appropriate use of the word) of Moby Dick, McCarthy had quite a bit to say. Moby Dick is narrated through a Christian-Pagan dichotomy (civilized vs. primitive), and forces us to question that dichotomy, whereas McCarthy uses a American Exceptionalism/Capitalism-Pagan dichotomy (also civilized vs. primitive). McCarthy's Paganism is not to be conflated with Melville's, though: Melville's is one forged of scholarship of the ancients and his positive experience with islanders: McCarthy's takes more cue from Aztec and Comanche Paganism. But just like Melville, McCarthy calls into question how much this dichotomy is actually a dichotomy.

>>6459577
>>6459817
>turning the judge into a Batman villain

>>6460033
Quoting the post that has the answer to Holden in it.

"Be like me, for I am meek and humble of heart."

>>6460515
This irks me as well.

I want artwork of the Judge as the spooby giant infant that McCarthy describes.