/lit/ - Literature

>>6434065
Have you read the whole tetralogy? If so, read Urth of the New Sun next.

I like Fifth Head better than Book of the New Sun, but I think that's a minority opinion. Definitely do as >>6434079 suggests and read all the way through Sword & Citadel, then Urth as well...Urth isn't quite as good as the other four but it answers some really important questions.

I like him a lot, but I like genre fiction. Or rather: I like the idea of genre fiction, and I think the execution and prose usually sucks so much it turns me off. But Wolfe's execution is great. I'm reading Book of the Long Sun later this year, will probably post something about its quality on /lit/ in a month or two. I haven't read Peace.

>>6434065
>I don't get all the hate for Wolfe.
It's quite easy to understand once you grasp that /lit/ is a containment board for /pol/tards that actually can supress their racism. So they just find new things to pick on. Such as "genre" fiction.

>muh almost 100 year old experiment with literature
>muh cuck masturbating on the beach
>muh farts

>>6434113
If you read Long Sun go ahead and read Short Sun right after. Long Sun is good, but in a lot of ways its just a big set up for Short Sun. Long Sun sets up the world and history that the nostalgia and regret of Short Sun builds off of.

>>6434266
I think being a fantasy reading pleb is more endemic amongst right-wing neckbeards than us well-adjusted normal folk, actually.

>>6434393
Fantasy readers are mostly left wing. Sci fi readers are right wing.

>>6434410
Idk I'd say most are left wing, both right and left. Look at Hugo awards, Scalzi is big partially because of his shitty shoehorned leftism. Also one of the reasons Wolfe isn't too popular in the mainstream is his Catholicism.

>>6434410
>Fantasy readers are mostly left wing

Fantasy readers are mostly literal fedora-wearing neckbeards. The sci-fi demographic is much broader.

>>6434428
Scalzi got popular before he went full sjw. His first book and most the rest are military sf, which is about as right wing as it gets.

>>6434430
> Fantasy readers are mostly literal fedora-wearing neckbeards.

Exactly. Fantasy fans are all left wing.

>>6434410
While I enjoy fantasy I feel a lot of the fandom is "left wing" in the sens of following what's considered cool at the moment, like genre equality or ecology. On the other hand most people with some interest with philosophy will have more developed opinions and will be aware of topics that are away from the actual agenda.

I read New Sun a couple of years ago and lately I have had the urge to start reading Long Sun, but I never read Urth back then (the conclusion of New Sun seemed satisfying to me and I wanted to move on to new books). Is there anything in Urth that would enrich my understanding or appreciation of Long Sun or can I safely skip it?

>>6434440
Old Man's War is left wing in a sense that it tries to make homosexuality into some amazing great thing for no reason in the context of the story. He just kind of randomly states how amazing people they are and then has a retarded joke. At the time I didn't really even know who he was, a mate borrowed it to me.

>>6434447
The whole ressurection thing is moved to a next level. It's one of the most moving and powerful scenes he has done in any of his works (out of 12 books and a dozen of stories that I've read)
Long Sun is good, but his post New Sun doesn't have the ambition he used to have, editors kinda fucked him up.

>>6434440
>Exactly. Fantasy fans are all left wing.

Fedoras are generally right-libertarians though.

>>6434468
>DFW
>hipster
0/8

>>6434428
>Also one of the reasons Wolfe isn't too popular in the mainstream is his Catholicism.

>>6434393
Reading military sci-fi is more common for right wing neckbeards
But stating that one genre adheres to one specific political ideology is beyond retarded. One could argue that Speculative Fiction is inherrently liberal because of it's belief in Enlightenment ideals, ref. Star Trek and fantasy of Romantic/Reactionary ideology, ref. The Lord of the Rings. So it's a dumb argument either way.

>>6434476
Tolkien is much more subtile about it, it's not there for the plens to notice. Also way less dense.

>>6434471
The only DFW readers I've met IRL were pierced and tattooed hipster bitches with crazy dyed hair.

>>6434478
> I recently asked a veteran New York editor whether Wolfe could find a publisher today if he were just coming along as a young writer. “Probably not,” she admitted. His writing is too religious, too difficult, and too strange.

http://www.firstthings.com/article/2007/04/the-distant-suns-of-gene-wolfe

>>6434490
>>6434476
>Tolkien
>subtle
lad...

>>6434500
Interesting/10

>>6434459
What influence did the editors have? It seems only logical they'd allow him more creative freedom given the success of New Sun upon publication.

>>6434451
He's a hack. But Sparta warriors were fucking each other, soldiers being gay is right wing.

>>6434468
Nah, fedoras tend to be liberals. Fedoras and hipsters are both left wing. Libertarian are all gun owning, workingman hard drug using swingers. You've never met a libertarian if you think otherwise.

>>6434478
> right wing neckbeards

Those two concepts can't go together.

>>6434536
Are you familiar with the idea of the Brogressive? It describes fedoras almost to a t

>>6434528
They asked him to make his writing less dense and more accsessible which you can see for yourself. None of his later works are NEARLY as dense as The New Sun. They are for the most part pretty good, but aren't the masterpieces I wanted them to be.

You can read about it somewhere here iirc.
http://www.technologyreview.com/news/529431/a-qa-with-gene-wolfe/

>>6434516
>implying that Lewis hamfisted metaphors are more popular because no papist

>>6434532
Depending on what you think devides right and left. I think the main difference today are the moral questions and not questions of governing. And the right/left has become more of a 3D thing with social, governing and moral norms as the questions of debate.

>>6434540
>Brogressive

Now I do. That fits my point exactly. Fedoras are left wing.

>>6434500
Also the new hip thing for editors today is to be "diverse".

>>6434065
nobody hates him, its just a meme.

>>6434558
I find it a fascanating thing that diversity has only made contemporary literature much less diverse.

>>6434549
Kind of. It's left of center for sure, but it stems from reactionary ideals rather than from enlightenment ones.

>>6434567
Why are enlightenment ideals left? Seems a lot more right wing to me. Left wing is getting together with your fellows, burning stuff, murder, rape, etc.

>>6434065
bump

>>6434065
I genuinely hate Wolfe, McCarthy, Pynchon, and Roth. Their collective misogyny could end women's suffrage.

>>6434616
>Pynchon
>misogynist

Switch him with Updike.

>>6434616
Very nice meme friend

>>6434542
Damn, that's angering. That explains all of his recent books, though.

>>6434616
Do you define misogyny as "treats women like human beings"?

>>6434616

>>6434682
I think we've reached the point scientifically where robots can make sandwiches and vacuum floors and such. We have "real dolls" etc. As soon as we perfect creating babies from only male dna women are going the way of the dinosaur.

>>6434616
>Their collective misogyny

>>6434682
I'm pretty sure it is a meme you dip

>>6434065
>McCarthy, Pynchon, and Roth
Two shit-tier meme authors for teenagers and a self-conscious pervert Jew.

You failed.

>>6434698
only fedoras view women as appliances for sex&food

>>6434698
>implying that the future of the world won't consist of a cabal of elite men ruling over a society of women

>>6434710
Nonsense. Some of the most sexually successful men out there are chauvinists. Fedoras are misogynists - there's a difference.

>>6434542
>None of his later works are NEARLY as dense as The New Sun. They are for the most part pretty good, but aren't the masterpieces I wanted them to be.
You're a dumbass. As a guy who's read everything Wolfe wrote, let me tell you: his stories get more and more complex and involved over time. Yes, the cheap surface-level ostentatiousness is toned down, but this only serves to make his themes deeper.

'The Land Across' is the most bind-bendingly complex thing he's ever wrote, it's probably some of the most complex stuff written in English yet. (I didn't like it much, BTW, precisely because it's too complex and incomprehensible. Wolfe's best is probably 'Wizard Knight'.)

>>6434707
I don't know how to meme. Please teach me.

>>6434729
Great argument you've got there m8

>>6434709
>pervert Jew
Thank you for proving my point >>6434266
>It's quite easy to understand once you grasp that /lit/ is a containment board for /pol/tards that actually can supress their racism. So they just find new things to pick on. Such as "genre" fiction.
Dubs confirm.

>>6434698
The breast and the penis are simply to response compared to the vagina. Whatever tech makes robotic breasts will work for robotic penises. It makes much more sense, that men will create robotic breasts and penises, than men will not be needed and women will kill all men. Thus we should avoid sex bots in general.

>>6434729
But seriously there is no need to call me a dumbass in a thread where I have been discussing Wolfe in a serious manner. You could have just pointed out why TWK is better than TNS.

>>6434786
Did you know, that Petera Incus is a woman?

>>6434764
But I rather like sex bots...
Are you saying my sexual pleasure could cost my gender its place in the order of species?

>>6434712
Sounds like my kind of thing. Would read in public just for keks.

>>6434814
Yes. Men are dead the day after they invent a dildo that can fix stuff around the house.

>>6434805
No. Although I'm reading The Long Sun atm and haven't reached the caracter yet I think.

>>6434733
>Great argument you've got there m8
I wasn't making an argument, fuckface.

>>6434743
>Thank you for proving my point >>6434266
'Pervert Jew' is a familiar blackface character in the assclown media circus. (Just like 'the gang-banging Negro', 'the Mexican working-class tight family', 'the Asian with 4.0 GPA', etc.) An author who acts the assclown and provides blackface fanservice (like Roth, for example) is the opposite of 'great'.

>>6434826
He doesn't show up till book 3, though he's in a little bit of book 2. That's he's a women is very obvious if you pay attention.

>>6434786
>You could have just pointed out why TWK is better than TNS.
BotNS has shallower themes. Both books are ultimately about religion, but BotNS is a more surface-level survey that doesn't delve into theology, unlike 'Wizard Knight'. Also, the literary references of 'Wizard Knight' are more interesting, since they actually come from holy books and mythology; BotNS references are twice-removed, citing modern pulp-fiction perversions of the original mythologies.

>>6434865
I think that there are no deeper themes than sin and redemption and ultimately death and ressurection. And it doesn't delve into theology? Wait what? It has tons of things on the Trinity as one example, it's one of the major things in Severian's thoughts. And references themselves didn't mean that much to me, unless we talk about the twisted versions of myths in the book, such as the black/white flag and genesis.
>>6434856
I'll get to it by the end of the year, failed my exam today, I'll have to work my ass off.

>>6434889
>I think that there are no deeper themes than sin and redemption and ultimately death and ressurection.
Both novels are about that, but BotNS treats it in a shallower, more mechanistic fashion.
>It has tons of things on the Trinity as one example, it's one of the major things in Severian's thoughts.
I wouldn't say 'tons', seemed more like namedropping than original contribution to me.

Anyways, Wolfe gets smarter with age, as does his writing.

>>6434845
>'Pervert Jew' is a familiar blackface character in the assclown media circus. (Just like 'the gang-banging Negro', 'the Mexican working-class tight family', 'the Asian with 4.0 GPA', etc.) An author who acts the assclown and provides blackface fanservice (like Roth, for example) is the opposite of 'great'.
No it isn't, /pol/io.

>>6434917
>Both novels are about that, but BotNS treats it in a shallower, more mechanistic fashion.
Could you elaborate?
>I wouldn't say 'tons', seemed more like namedropping than original contribution to me.
Not quite. He works around why each person is different and how He affects the world for example. Even the names he gives them give insight into it, tbh he has the best explanation of Trinity I've ever read.

>>6434065
Read his shadow of the torturer only.
Edgiest book i have read next to prince of thorns.

But what really pisses me off is the absolute lack of purpose or any plot altogether.
Shit happens, you can skip whole chapters, hell half the book and you will miss nothing, people will be still in the same place doing the same irrelevant shit.
That and having your protagonist be a little psychopath with dreams of torturing people to death dosnt really make you hold your breath for his "adventures". Hoped he will be stabbed in the face and we will move to someone more interesting every few pages.

>>6435003
Nigga you read the first chapter. Shut your mouth.

>>6435003
Is this bait from goodreads?

>>6435012
>chapter
I think you mean book, you twat.
300 pages of my life i wont get back.

Some authors tell amazing stories in 300 pages, so if this guy cant even introduce us to his world in that amount i he obviously lacks the skill or effort to create a competent narrative within a whole series.

Also who the fuck starts off first book in a series with filler, nothing happens in that city, nothing. It should have just went straight into him bumping into that chick and go forward with the plot, the pacing would be better and i wouldnt drop the series.

As it is, fuck that, im definitively not in the young teen target audience group for it.

>>6435059
It's a single book in 4 parts. You read a chapter. you don't even know the relevance of all that nothing that happens.

>>6435067
>It's a single book in 4 parts.
Thats why it was published, written, and sold in 4 parts in different years, right ?
Kid, learn what the word book means, i mean fuck me, we are on /lit/ of all places.

> you don't even know the relevance of all that nothing that happens.
Was that even english ?

Im getting rused, arent i ?

>>6435082
you're the rusemaster here, or are trying and failing to be. you be the judge, but i wouldn't trust that judgement if i were you

>>6435082
Its sold as one book, cuntbrain...

>>6435059

>>6435086
wait, what
why would the ruseman need to figure out if he is trolling or not, he already knows

dude, think before you post

>>6435111
ruseman is trying to call my refutation a ruse because he can't do any better than D class bait

i'm just having fun while frying up bacon burgers

>>6435119
>i was only pretending to be retarded
all of my fucking keks

>>6435096
It's sold as two books, actually.

>>6435131
It sold as 4, 2 and one. Because often books are published in more parts like that, TBK, Demons, The Divine Comedy, you name it.

>>6435059
>presenting a world
>characters moving from point a to point b
>filler
you hit all the marks, but the execution is a bit floppy B+ and I'm sure you'll make that an A next year.

>>6435144
>B+
That is sloppy work. C- at best.

>>6435156
Don't be an ass. He did all his work, he just lacked finesse.

>>6435184
You can read all the lines and still be a terrible actor. C

>>6435144
>>6435156
>>6435184
>>6435244
Autism if i ever saw it
I think you twats forgot you arent on reddit

>>6435516
oh shit, it's the though police! we better not have fun in ways he doesn't like!
quickly, run while he's trying to swallow a thousand cocks!

>>6435015

>>6435003

>admits to only reading the first book in the series
>whines about lack of purpose and plot
>claims you can skip whole chapters of the book and miss nothing
>only read the first book in the series
>first book
>in
>the
>series

>>6434065

OP here. Thanks for the recs and discussion guys. I picked up The Fifth Head of Cerberus and Peace. I'm gonna plow through both of these this week and report back. Also put an order in for Urth of the New Sun. Excited to see what else Wolfe has in store for his readers.

>>6435082
It was actually supposed to be three books, but the third as going to be almost as long as the first two combined, so Gene split the last one into two.

>>6435615
This would be so much better looking if Sev's neck wasn't so fucklong

Gonna get a lot of shit for this, but someone tell me that pic related is very similar to the Book of the New Sun and i want to know if is true, and how is? i know that both are about a dying planet but thats all.

>>6435826
What is this? It looks like some MMO?

>>6435826
Yeah, to a certain extent.

>>6434805
Wait, really?

>>6435831
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UbbBDl92aBo
>>6435903
Sweet.

Who/what is Father Inire?

>>6436290
Cacogen from Yesod.
Hope you read Urth.

>>6434410
The current drama with the Hugo awards would like a word.

>>6436043
Yes. When Incus is first introduced in Lake, she brings up a woman's name as "one I use myself." Than in Calde his first scene is writing a letter, in which he is trying to tell a secret. What secret? He say that underlining "myself" and later in the letter "woman" is too obvious. Than later on, when Auk is sacrificing something to Pas, the god says a woman must be present, and stops saying that when Incus shows up. And remember that long conversation that Mint has with Spider about cross dressing? Only Wolfe would have such a major character be transsexual and never even bring it up, or have it matter really.

>>6436290
Severian's son.

>>6436501
feminists trying to inject their toxic shit into everything doesn't change anything. Video gamers are the exact same people before and after that Anita cunt stopped to squawk. And sci fi readers are just as right wing now and always. Hint: utopia sci fi is fantasy.

>>6434500
We live in a really sad era.

>>6436304
I thought he was a monkey.

>>6436571
holy shit
gotta reread long sun it looks like

sometimes I wonder if it's one dude or two dudes doing all the viral marketing for this guy's estate

>>6437408
do you not like gene wolfe?

>>6437436

oh, only as much as any other author of wish-fulfillment fantasies for grown men in sweatpants

>>6437440
of what purpose was opening the thread then?

>>6437408
As one of the two, please pirate Wolfe, or get the books for free or used like I did.

>>6435676

Check out his short stories too. He wrote a lot, I'm still plowing through his collections. Some of his stories are duds but I enjoy reading his good ones as much as TBotNS.

>>6436501
But consider this: Wolfe hasn't gotten any Hugo awards but plenty of others.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gene_Wolfe#Awards

>>6438207
Because he is a good enough author to be liked by critics and fellow authors.

>>6434712
This might happen with barbarians like Arab or Chinese and their harems.
In "civilized" society, upper class men rarely hang out with women except for children/sex.
>what are all-men upper class clubs

>>6437408
>sometimes I wonder if it's one dude or two dudes doing all the viral marketing for this guy's estate
Wolfe is a famous and accomplished guy, he doesn't need viral marketing.

>>6438392

>he doesn't need viral marketing.

least of all on four fucking chan.

>>6438233
Sorry, my point was that the Hugo award is overrated.

>>6437408
No. Consider it a reaction to the fawning over the fart-smelling hangman.

>>6438454
Hugo is shit

>mfw this entire thread was all me and the wolfster gave me $20 and let me give him a blowie for my viral marketing skills

thanks guys

>>6434428
What is that makes Catholics so good at SF?

>>6438527

They already have a vast experience in making up shit that doesn't exist.

>>6438548

>>6438548
Not really, they mostly repeat the shit that doesn't exist that other people made up.

>>6438527
Lafferty is barely SF, but who else besides those two?

>>6434805
Are there Undines in Lake Limna?

>>6434428
>Look at Hugo awards, Scalzi is big partially because of his shitty shoehorned leftism.

Correia pls go

>>6434428
Wolfe isn't more popular because his shit is 3deep for the average fantasy reader and 2wellwritten for the average sci-fi reader.

>>6438953
Walter M. Miller, if you count A Canticle for Liebowitz as a good book.
>>6439569
Is it not true?
>>6439606
And as I've pointed out his religious views. Read the article I linked.

>>6439634

>Is it not true?

Not really. Old Man's War was a good book, I couldn't care less about his politics.

>>6439655
>Old Man's War was a good book
It's possibly worse than Name of The Wind. It's easily one of the worst books I've ever read. It's the bottom of literature. Story about leprechaun who loved oral sex is a better work than Old Man's War.

>>6439634
it's much more than just the religious views, though they play an important role. His writing only makes you feel smart if you aren't dumb. Then there has to be more than just me who likes it, but generally doesn't enjoy most SFF.

>>6439433
Of course not, the lake is getting smaller. What the sea monster is I have no idea.