/lit/ - Literature

>>6423465
because it's not just an apparatus for state control. these days it's just the opposite, think about it... people coming together for a greater good above material possessions and so on....

>>6423468
Would that mean that Christianity could be a counterforce to state hegemony of our conscience, like it was before it became adapted as the state faith of the Roman Empire?

>>6423474
In my own opinion, yes. Getting down with Jesus is cool heh

I hate Seth McFarlane so fucking much

>>6423500

>>6423500
Why bother?
If he didn't fill the void for twelve year old hip kid humor, somebody else would step up and take his place.
I'm not saying that he's in any way a positive influence on people, just that his (or somebody with) presence (like his) is inevitable.

>>6423515
wow
you are
such a
genius
seth

seth 4 el presidente

>>6423515

Holy shit, that would go so well as a caption to one of those fat fedora tipper images.

What to read on the changing place of Christianity in Europe and the US? It seems to be much more complex than the gradual decline predicted by the secularization thesis.

>>6423465
>>6423465
Well duh, because the State is wrestling with the Church for control.
As of the last few hundred years the State has been winning.

If you look at european medieval history after the fall of the Roman empire you see the dichotomy between the rulers of Europe and the Papacy.
European history has thousands of years of struggle between the church and early states.

We are merely seeing the end of this situation with the state in a dominant position over the church, but still vying for power in some regards.
Essentially struggle with the church is engraned in the logic of the nation state, as this is how the nation state was formed.

>>6423474
There aren't, like, contradicting statement in this image or anything.

>>6423465
>Erases Christianity
>Somehow advances humanity without erasing hospitals, universities and more which Christianity played a major role in developing
>Thinks Christianity causes "Dark Ages" (a term many historians dislike)
So less than a second of research was put into that episode?

>>6424638
A good analogy is removing the middle steps in a stair and pretending you just made it easier to get to the top

>>6424638
Why would you expect that shitty cartoon series to be a well researched counterfactual history documentary and not just an excuse for a lame throwaway joke like the rest of the program.

>>6424638
>>Somehow advances humanity without erasing hospitals, universities and more which Christianity played a major role in developing
>mfw

You mean that shit that was invented by the ancient greeks and that Christians took credit for?

>>6424696
>played a major role in developing
>a major role
>not the only role
They helped it but weren't the only ones. Besides, the ancient Greeks believed things like outer space having different laws of physics than earth.

>>6423465
I mean, most people don't seem to think it odd that large groups of Christians allowed themselves to be executed after the death of Jesus of Nazareth. I'm not sure if there's another religion that has had such a devoted first few generations.

>>6424709

Christianity's role in developing medicine and science was minor compared to the Greeks and the Romans. For instance, medicine was practically invented by Hippocrates 4 centuries before Jesus was even born

>>6424681
There is a difference between wanting something to be factually correct and noticing a clear discourse hidden as a joke. You can recognize the value of things while being aware of it's ideology, it's not one or the other.
It's usually considered a trait of teenagers demanding extremes, but I'm sure you're old wnough to use this site and just didn't think it through.

>>6424711

Heaven's Gate didn't even need anyone to execute them, they killed themselves.

I guess that makes their beliefs even more true

>>6424696
>greeks
yeah, drinking less poison and acting out your ills is the same as modern medicine. the greeks just invented homeopathy, which is barely medicine.

>>6424720
>Minor
They had their advancements. The Jesuits, for example, made plenty of additions.

Medicine was practiced but just being practiced isn't enough. It ignores all the developments made.

>>6424709
>Besides
Besides random observation about something irrelevant? An airless world with no gravity and colder than any winter sure would seem like a different law of physics to most people even if it is totally consistent.

>>6423465
>then why is the prevailing ideology so hard on Christianity?
Because you skipped 300 years of history

>>6424728

>misrepresenting an era this much
>at the same time praising Augustine and Aquinas, who basically plagiarized Plato and Aristotle and then took credit for everything they did

Looks like we got ourselves a genuine christposter on our hands

>>6424731
I think you're putting too much of modern science into it. I doubt the ancient Greeks had the technology to definitely know the conditions outside the Earth.
>>6424736
>Augistine & Aquinas
Different anon but where were they mentioned previously?

>>6424744
>Different anon but where were they mentioned previously?

Nowhere, but the Greeks were. They were misrepresented as brainless yokels, despite the fact that Christian theology would have looked radically different without them. Augustine and Aquinas are just two prominent examples of this

>>6423465
>Atheist shit-poster
Christians hindered science for centuries and stole from the Greeks.

>Christian shit-poster
Greeks were heathen barbarians vallowing in their own shit, Romans threw us to the lions, The Catholic Church saved Europe.


Why such dualism. The Scientific opression is highly exaggerated - Christianity is the religion that has been most hospitable towards science and that is why the world is like it is today.

>>6424747
>the most hospitable towards science

You know you haven't set the bar high enough when they can be blatantly anti-science during certain periods and you are still right about them contributing to science.

Frankly, if smarter people were handling their finances it would have been a better situ

>>6424755
Most religious are hospitable towards science when science is doing what they want and hostile to it when science is looking at things it shouldn't. It is the same with OP's question, religion and the state get along and use each other but both are trying to expand their domain of influence usually at the expense of the other.

>>6423465
Is /lit/'s love for Christendom a meme, or has this place suddenly been swarmed with /pol/tards?

>>6424772
Neither really. I mean there are some posters that fashion themselves as Christian hardliners, either from the /pol/ "deus vult" or the more philosophical "anti-scientism" perspective, but all in all it's just the only topically relevant board that has a slightly differentiated view on religion, and a less revisionist one as well.

>>6424696
You mean shit the Egyptians invented and the Greeks took credit for it?

>>6424772
>implying you aren't a meme
/lit/ has christian threads before /pol/ was even a thing.

>>6424782
>that has a slightly differentiated view on religion

Which would be what exactly? I'm all for having a discussion about religion and theology, but in my experience it's hard to do when people scream tips fedora, or think that a cartoon maker like Seth MacFarlane is one of the biggest problems with the West today.

>>6424788
You mean learning institutions and medical care, something that is an essential feature of human civilization. Invented in the prehistoric and every group has taken credit for later?

>>6424796
E.g, not holding the believe that Christianity is the worst thing ever to happen to humankind and that we'd all be living in some transstellar utopia wihout it by now. Or that god is a "fairy man in the sky dreamt up by bronce age goatherders" or any of that trite nonsense you can find in abundance on youtube comment sections or /b/ or wherever. Visit some of the theology generals sometime and you'll see.

>>6424812
I'm not religious at all, and I am hostile to the idea of religion, but I still think it's an interesting topic, and I don't think it's the source of all evil like some atheists do.

Moreover, I will say that I never grew up with religion, so I am much more apathetic to it, than a person who is raised religiously and then falls out of it.

>>6423474
Yes, and you can make the argument that it's starting to happen thanks to the man in your picture.

There has always, always been a tension in Christianity between obeying the regular demands of the world and defying them in the name of Jesus. This crops up as early as Paul's letter to the Romans. Augustine's City of God is named after the idea that Christians don't really belong to the world- that they're pilgrims in it on their way to their true home, their true city, in Heaven. At the same time, Jesus commands that Christians go out and "make disciples of all the nations," and that necessarily requires being involved in the world.

So I suppose another way to put the tension is as one between worldliness and otherworldliness. Christians, in a sense, have one foot out the door of this world. Should they retreat from the demands of the world and live merely in anticipation of God? That's what cloistered monks do, after all. Or should they reach out to the City of the World and try to shape it in God's image, with God as their ally?

Or is the answer to do both? Christ, after all, was fully God and fully human. It stands to reason he wouldn't want the human world, the material world, to be overlooked by his followers, even as they keep one eye on the next life.

It's a dilemma that's had many answers over the centuries.

>>6424788
You mean stuff the Chinese made and was stolen by the Egyptians and then the Greeks (and then the medieval Christians)?

Religion exists for a reason. We are truly living in the end times when there are people who do not see the utility and apparent truth of religion. There is a god, and this god is palpable. I do, however, believe that Christianity is not a good religion because of its morality and paradoxical golden rule, which Freud pointed out to be one of the biggest flaws of the religion in Civilization and it's Discontents. Many people understand the paradoxical nature of good and evil necessarily creates a dualistic divide in humanity and this is self-replicating. It starts with Good and Evil then replicates into the Nietzschean dichotomy of Good vs. Evil and Good vs. Bad, then replicates itself again into an infernal maze of dualities. Truly herein lies the problems we face as a civilization, our neuroses are based on a pile of conflicts, defeats, and victories that are fought without our permission, for our longevity as a society that exists without our benefits.

Religion unites all, even in the days of Hellenistic conflicts, religion, as a theme of nature, embodied the wills of the people, from the chariot of Zeus in Xerxes' army to Heracles, the father of Pelopennesus, demigods and gods have been connected very closely with humans since that time. We have been close to the one true god ever since the worship of Zeus. This evolved into Yahweh, which then evolved into Allah. We are now ignoring the fact that Islam is the closest thing we have to a beneficial religion these days because it supports a paradigm inimical and iconoclastic to the overbearing tantivy of superficial luxurious expenses that has consumed the ruling classes ever since ease of lending with usury corrupted the masses.

Because Christianity is a lie and God does not exist.

>>6425497
>We are truly living in the end times when there are people who do not see the utility and apparent truth of religion. There is a god, and this god is palpable.

And your evidence for this is...?

>>6424794
He thinks /pol/ is younger than /lit/

>>6425537
You know there's actually more conjecture for the proof of religion than you believe. Freud has commented on the 'oneness' of being in regards to religion. It connects people and brings them together. Now, whether this god is the amalgamation of the wills of a collective consciousness, or whether it is a separate entity omnipotent, I do not think we will ever, at least in the near future, know. But Islam, is by far one of the best things humanity has invented in the last two millennia.

>>6424772
I don't think it even exists as a meme, but christposting definitely is, with this kind of shit threads and shitposting. Whether or not it is from /pol/ or outside influence it is hard to confirm, but this wont be the frist /pol/ has invaded another board ahem /tv/ ahem ahem

>>6425497
Oh god, this is just rich.

>>6423465
>If religion (I'm talking about today, mind, not yesteryear) is just an apparatus for state control, then why is the prevailing ideology so hard on Christianity?
What you need to realise is NOTHING exists in a vacuum.

This is kinda my theory: Christianity, unlike other religions, is excessively inward looking towards the soul and redemption. Christians used to look at their mortal sins and punish themselves.

As society began industrialising/urbanising the blame began to push off the individual and onto society. In a pastoral agrarian society it was easy to blame the single harlot in a village for sin. In a city it became the whole society.

And this inward guilt being expressed at one's own sin has moved towards society. So they blamed all of societies faults for causing all the issues. Eventually the societal guilt became SO GREAT that they blamed religion, the very moralising force behind their actions, as being a major problem in society.

Of course this is all generalised conjecture. What you need to remember is this: even people who are anti-Western civilisation are born in it and molded by it. In fact the people arguing for less Eurocentric history being taught are often the ones completely ignorant of the rest of the world's history (as they view the other as being "good" and don't see all the horrible things that has happened).

>>6425556
>But Islam, is by far one of the best things humanity has invented in the last two millennia.
What makes you believe in such a bold statement?

>>6424821
>I never grew up with religion, so I am much more apathetic to it, than a person who is raised religiously and then falls out of it.

this.

all these edgy, confrontational atheists are just reactionaries. I don't even call myself an atheist. the people who apply that word were all raised with it and later rejected it. they have this huge chip on their shoulder, I can't even use the correct word to describe myself, they've perverted it.

I always say what this poster says, "I'm not religious," or "I'm not a man of faith."

>>6425556
>Freud has commented on the 'oneness' of being in regards to religion. It connects people and brings them together.

Then why is the Middle East little more than a battlefield for sunnis and shias to murder each other in increasingly horrific fashions?

>>6423474
It's because the largest amount of anti religious athirst backlash is happening in countries with Christian majorities. This whole thread is over thinking it.

>>6424772
Welp, I'm an Episcopalian. And a Marxist. Both of those are pretty much the antithesis of /pol/. /pol/ isn't really compatible with Mainline Protestantism, they're more like Fundamentalist Protestants minus the creationism and love of Israel, even when they claim to be Catholic.

>>6424726
It's pretty clear that Christianity doesn't quite worship death the same way Heaven's Gate did/does. Death isn't considered so absolutely terrible in Christianity, but I think it's worth noting that a large number of people alive at the time of Jesus of Nazareth and his disciples were tortured and murdered without relenting. It's kind of odd to just say there's nothing there and they just invented this thing in their minds.

>>6425587
>the people who apply that word were all raised with it and later rejected it.

I wasn't

>>6423474
i heard a leftist politician today say that his paragon of leftism is pope francis. it's really no wonder that socialdemocracy doesn't exist anymore here. it's like we actually copied murrika's system where you either are a librul or a crazed chimera made out of capitalism and fundamentalist christianity

>>6425578
I have thought about this before. And I'm glad you asked, without insulting my beliefs. Let me explain myself.

Now most would say Islam is the religion FOR the Middle East BY the Middle East, and that it is a religion of violence. Well then, why is the single largest Christian nation bombing the largest amount of innocent people by air? Islam is simply contrary to the paradigm. It could be anything, a Flying Spaghetti Monster, maybe all of the Persians in that area started believing in Hellenistic gods again, whatever it would be, if you were opposed to acting in a nature conducive to the abstract reality we have manufactured, then we want you dead or alive with us.

But now let us talk about the nature of Islam. Why Islam? Well for one, it is the largest, most modern, Abrahamic religion to date. It encompasses a lot of rules, which, if one decided to follow them, creates paradise for the inhabitants. One of them is the following: there is no interest in Islamic finance. We are dealing with debt piling up around us as a result of the practices of leaders which started some 400 years ago in the nations of Europe. They created entire industries out of usury and artificial wage inflation. Now whether there was an actual anthropomorphic entity watching over us warning us, or perhaps we have some spiritual connection to a collective conscious which has access to this omnipotence. Either way, that is, we have been warned by Allah, who created the perfect religion for humanity, who can somehow teach every single person something new by reading the Quran. I can guarantee you, this is the paradigm shift, we will shift to a more beneficial religion.

>>6425606

>>6425589
That would be the West

>>6425623

Christianity is also far from being 'one'. It now has three major factions, for one

>>6425621
based

>>6425410
Yet those christains created western civilization and everything that follows, while the Chinese have ended up with... China

>>6425619
>But now let us talk about the nature of Islam. Why Islam? Well for one, it is the largest, most modern, Abrahamic religion to date.
I must say that I almost laugh when people talk about Islam and play up the fact that it is an Abrahamic religion. Yes, yes it is. But as a religion it is also one that has a distinct socio-cultural place in the Arabian penisula and was used to unite tribes of warlike people together.

Islam (when pushed into other cultures) did have a distinct Golden Age. But this does not justify all the things it has done. As a religion it constantly goes through periods of perceived decadence followed by expansionism and violence.

It enslaved more people than white Christians ever did. While Americans complain about the issues of slavery in the US they ignore the fact that most of the problems in modern Africa stem from the enslavement and assimilation of people by Islam. This was done over an area larger than Western Europe.

If the West is to be moralised and judged then so must the East.

>>6425629
Exactly my point. Islam respected Judaism more than Islam

>>6425166
Zeffirelli movie does it better
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aA_0DELSc-4

>>6425636
I went to study at a Chinese university for a while it was pretty much:
>We are superior!
>We invented everything!
>Even football...
>*All their history students seemed obsessed with the Renaissance and where we seemed to get ahead*
>Yes but while you have your technology etc you lost your soul!
>We still have that grace to us..
>We will beat you!
>Did we mention that we invented everything?

>>6425634
>“Some people continue to defend trickle-down theories which assume that economic growth, encouraged by a free market, will inevitably succeed in bringing about greater justice and inclusiveness in the world,” Francis wrote in the papal statement. “This opinion, which has never been confirmed by the facts, expresses a crude and naive trust in the goodness of those wielding economic power and in the sacralized workings of the prevailing economic system.”

>>6425621
>"poverty is the center of the Gospel", he said, sitting on the golden throne.
The commies didn't steal anything, Frank, it was just proletariat reappropriation.

>>6425655
Did you bother pointing out that the reason their country is now a superpower is because of economic and political systems invented in the West?

>>6425664
Yeah, sort of like how the U.S. didn't steal anything in its War of Independence.

>>6425678
Yes. Many times. But they essentially act like it is a marathon and we have taken the lead for a few seconds and they will catch up.

>>6425664
Francis is a Jesuit. He might sit on a nice throne as Pope, but he has lived a life of poverty as a Jesuit, and continues to live pretty modestly as Pope, aside from the ornate issues (and even those he minimizes).

>>6425636
>Yet those christains created western civilization

kek, really?

>>6425619
>I have thought about this before. And I'm glad you asked, without insulting my beliefs
As someone who was born a Muslim, I came to a mostly relativistic/tolerant stance to different religions and ideologies. Though I agree with what you say about the corruption there is in the west today, I on the hand don't approve of your narrow minded argument, that is, a 'Christian nation' is bombing a Muslim nation so the Muslims should be depicting the ultimate innocence, no, that is simply a western account of Islam, Muslims have a long history of genocides, invasion, cultural and total exploration and even destruction of other civilizations. But I guess it's hard to highlight it in the midst of Western civilization flourishing that dwarfs the Middle East and Islamic civilization in the present era.

>>6425688
It is his power to help a lot of poor people but does nothing about it. Oh yeah, his clothes are less gaudy than the last pope, sorry, I forgot, that sure helps all the bums in Rome.
Pope francis is a marketing decision. I guess you fit the target.
>>6425681
>seriously defending the idea of "concept theft"

>>6425642
Sorry, but just no

>>6425714
Actually, yes. Islam viewed Christianity as a religion that joined gods with god. Worshipping Christ, because he was a corporeal entity, is asinine anyway.

>>6425713
>It is his power to help a lot of poor people but does nothing about it.
I guess you don't know that he devoted several decades of his life to helping poor people;; it was being involved in such things in the Jesuit Order that shaped his outlook.

I'm not sure what more you want him to do as Pope, apostolic exhortations are as far as you can go without redefining Church dogma.

>>6425730
I'm guessing that you are a Muslim.

>>6425713
>It is his power to help a lot of poor people but does nothing about it.

Define 'does.' There is much that can be done for the poor without someone specifically going out and giving sandwiches to the homeless.

Francis has thrown the weight of the Church behind critiquing and challenging the structural causes of poverty. That's no small thing.

>>6425713
Not your original poster, but I would just say that francis is doing more than me.

>>6423465
>a greater good above material possessions and so on....
Yeah, it's not like catholicism doesn't promote material wealth with each and every one of its ornamental, intricate and money-adorned institutions, but thats aight because all we need to solve current global issues is hope for the 'greater good' while putting our hard-earned cash in a pot for a dude who probably doesn't even exist

>>6425771
>I'm not sure what more you want him to do as Pope
I'm not the one who expects anything from him.

>>6423468
>christianity
>people coming together for a greater good above material possessions and so on

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

>>6425809
EU here. USA has more than walmart

>>6425825
>thinks life in the USA is like a norman rockwell painting

that's like thinking Japan is exactly like what you see in your animes

>>6425836
i-its not?

>>6423465
FUCK OFF TO /pol/ REPORT POLITIC THREADS HIDE POLITIC THREADS DO NOT RESPOND TO POLITICAL POSTERS

>>6425836
Yo, protip: that painting is actually very sad.

>>6425836
>not getting the obvious message in that painting

>>6425885
still not anywhere close to what america is like though

pic related is what most of america looks like, this and farmland

>>6423493
based hendrix at it again

>>6425894
>The painting depicts an old woman and a young boy saying grace in a crowded restaurant, as they are observed by other people at their table.

>>6425836
>implying the student-council administration isn't exactly the same as the one during communism

>>6423531
Seth MacFaggot is just a fedora tipper who got into cartooning. There's an episode of Family Guy where the camera literally zooms in on a copy of The God Delusion being held by Brian (Seth's Mary Sue). "Look! I read a book! Me so smart!"

>>6425905
>I am autistic and therefore I cannot read anymore into a painting other than what I literally see being depicted

>>6425806
What's wrong with beautifying things? are you some sort of ascetic Philistine?

>>6425919
>Rockwell's inspiration for Saying Grace came from a Saturday Evening Post reader who saw a Mennonite family praying in a restaurant.

>>6425922
See >>6425919

>>6425809
Yeah, this is what happens when you divorce Christmas from religion.

>>6425924
What's the message then? Cause Rockwell certainly didn't intend for there to be one.

It's a fucking cover he painted for a magazine's thanksgiving issue.

>>6425931
Everyone is looking at the woman and the child praying like it's some sort of freakish spectacle.

>>6425936
it is
>>6425928
>christfags still mad about divorce

>>6425931
A young kid and an old lady are expressing their faith by saying grace, while two young adults watch them with a "WTF" expression on their faces. These two young adults were also once little kids who said grace and will someday probably be old men and will once again say grace. The subtext is really fucking obvious.

>>6425936
>implying anyone in 1950s america thought praying was "freakish"

lol at calling me an autist when you're the one who can't even interpret facial expressions

>Norman Rockwell painted more "serious" illustrations from 1943 on. He still exhibited his famous humor on most of his paintings. Still, as he reached the golden years on his career, he turned to several subjects where humor was not at the forefront, or even present at all.
>Saying Grace is one such painting. I can find no humor in it at all. The dominant emotion that this painting evokes is reverence.
>That reverence is not just shown by the grandmother and her grandson. Reverence also exudes from every other character in the diner. That reverence and respect, almost to the point of bordering on a sense of awe, is directed from the other characters to the praying family.

>>6425621
>>6425657
>mfw people attempt to criticize economic systems without understanding them

Marx's ghost still haunts this earth only out of a failure of people to understand economics. It's that simple.

>>6425954
at least you didn't post the same picture

>>6425952
no you don't get it christianity is besieged and norman rockwell knew it and he was sad.
fortunately now Bergoglio is here, he will help christianity to come back in style because he was a jesuit and he's the marxist pope.
also the message of the painting is so obvious three people have talked about it and have given three different versions.

>>6425952
So far as I can tell, that is just one guy's interpretation of it, and not necessarily Rockwell's intention. Either way, even that guy admits there's a message in that painting, which you didn't pick up until you sought out someone else's interpretation as a counter to my interpretation, which leads me to believe you're probably an autist who can't see anything apart from what you literally see, as evidenced in >>6425905

>>6425954
>mfw liberals actually think that if someone kidnaps your daughter and ransom's her to you back, they are adding value to her

>>6425980
>no you don't get it christianity is besieged and norman rockwell knew it and he was sad.

holy shit you're delusional

>So far as I can tell, that is just one guy's interpretation of it, and not necessarily Rockwell's intention.

Rockwell didn't have any fucking intention other than to paint an idealized portrait of a scene described in a magazine for the cover of said magazine so he could get his $3000 check.

Rockwell was a hack. hurr durr so '50s born in da rong generashun u say bieber i say elvis XD

>>6425940
>christfags still mad about divorce
Divorce is impossible where the sacrament of matrimony has been conferred. Where it hasn't been, then divorce is just terminating a legal contract.

>>6426001
>Rockwell didn't have any fucking intention other than to paint an idealized portrait of a scene described in a magazine for the cover of said magazine so he could get his $3000 check.

Then prove it. Where did Rockwell say he had no message in that painting? The fact that you believe Rockwell never expounded on a message in a painting that obviously had one must therefore mean the painting literally had no message only strengthens my suspicions of your autism.

>Rockwell was a hack. hurr durr so '50s born in da rong generashun u say bieber i say elvis XD

You sound upset, kid.

>>6426001
PLEB DETECTED

>>6426001
>Rockwell's paintings are purely superficial
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Problem_We_All_Live_With

>>6426033
That painting has no message or subtext. It's just a girl looking in a mirror with a magazine!

>>6426044
>doesn't realize the subtext of innocence and childhood lost

I'm gonna assume you're being sarcastic

>>6426060
You assumed correctly.

>>6426001
>holy shit you're delusional
how stupid are you?
inb4 poe's law.

>>6426033
The real tragedy of that painting is that she's in a hurry to grow up but she's already such a qt.

>>6426029
America in the 1950's was shit and everyone knew it, that's why Rockwell drew these fucking idealized escapist paintings. Even his own life was shit and he had to see a psychiatrist to deal with his depression.

Pic related is a collection of photographs that will give you a more accurate picture of what America was like in the '50s than anything Rockwell ever painted would.

>>6426033
>>6426044
>>6426060
>looking for "messages" in paintings

You guys are the morons who complain about abstract art because it doesn't "mean anything", aren't you? ugh

>>6426107
no they complain because it's not about finely depicted naked females

>>6426100
pic related: idealized escapist painting of a war hero being welcomed back by his family

>>6426100
Now you're just shit posting because you know you made a stupid ass out of yourself. I don't care what you think of the 1950's or Rockwell. The painting clearly has a message pertaining to religion, and you plainly couldn't see it for whatever dumb reason that's probably the result of a mental issue you have.

>>6426122
that is a pretty idealized painting, there's even a poster of him hung up in the back hailing him as a hero. what exactly are you implying?

Rockwell was a kitsch artist though and nothing he painted should be taken as an accurate depiction of '50s life. Even his psychiatrist told him, and I'm paraphrasing a bit here, that he was painting the happy lives he wished he had.

>>6426122
decades later, the guy with the pipe joins rammstein

>>6426122
>it's just a marine who just so happens to be holding a Japanese flag while people look at him!

>>6426127
>Now you're just shit posting because you know you made a stupid ass out of yourself. I don't care what you think of the 1950's or Rockwell.

This argument originally started because someone claimed that America was anything like Rockwell paintings.

I can see how someone who looks for coded "messages" in paintings though would be attracted to a kitschy artist like Rockwell.

>>6426115
Now this is a good painting. Most of what Rockwell painted wasn't.

>>6426137
Believe it or not, many paintings tell stories or have messages in them. Some messages are more apparent than others. That painting of a bowl of rotting fruit isn't "just" a painting of a bowl of rotting fruit. Enjoy your shit posting, though.

>>6426130
>I'm incapable of recognizing facial expressions and have never been inside an art gallery in my life

>>6426137
>This argument originally started because someone claimed that America was anything like Rockwell paintings.
Nope
>>6425825 here
I have said that US christianity has more than some fatty who buys "xmas" angels at walmart. It's different.

>>6426146
>facial expressions

Pipey and fatso are smiling about war hero's thrilling adventure tales that remind them of their youth, the two young boys are in awe.

>have never been inside an art gallery in my life

I've been in the Louvre, the Met, etc.

No art critic takes Rockwell seriously though, even in his own time they didn't.

>>6426150
>I have said that US christianity has more than some fatty who buys "xmas" angels at walmart.

And you're implying that what the US has in addition to the fatties at Walmart are people like those in the Rockwell painting you posted.

>>6426150
So I guess we can declare that absolutely nobody in this thread can fucking read.
GG /lit/

>>6426145
>Believe it or not, many paintings tell stories or have messages in them

>rockwell gets paid to illustrate a scene from a magazine
>HURR DURR MUH CODED MESSAGES ROCKWELL WAS A PROPHET PREDICTING THE DEMISE OF CHRISTIANITY AND ALSO 9/11 AND THAT'S WHY YOU SHOULD LOVE JESUS AMEN

>>6426107
Yes because looking for a message in one piece of artwork means I assume every artistic work must have a message.

>>6426165
I'm implying that there is more in chistianity that celebrations and rites.
But that celebrations and rites are important and have a meaning if you've fate.
http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0839/__PVZ.HTM

>>6425621
>He actually thinks poverty and 'sharing wealth' is at the heart of Socialism and not things like democratic distribution of power, equality of opportunity, and alleviating the tensions that are inherent in Capitalist society because of class antagonisms.

Why do people take Liberals seriously. Socialism isn't wanton wealth redistribution or charity. Christianities connection to Communism is basically non-existant when actually examined in depth, besides some superficial similarities.

M

>>6426205
>I'm implying that there is more in chistianity that celebrations and rites.

Yeah you're implying that Christianity has some sort of anti-materialism that brings people together when that's not the way 99.9% of American Christians practice it.

>>6426207
pope francis isn't to be taken seriously, the only reason he's there is so he can play the popular demagogue after the last pope was so universally disliked.
it's kinda like when people like to pretend that jesus was this cool guy far out hippie who just wanted to chill, man, but then the romans came and spoiled everything. Nothing profound, just bullshit designed to appeal to the lowest common denominator while not distancing itself from church standards.

>>6426217
>You're implying that Christianity has some sort of anti-materialism that brings people together
not completely, have you read the Acts?
I don't judge american christianity as total, but I'm glad of having an elected Pope.

>>6426234
Such a shame after John Paul II sought to reconcile the traditional Catholic Church with popular sensibilities. Francis is pretty much raping orthodoxy in order to appeal cool and hip. I guess Benedict wasn't bad per se, just too academic and unworldly.

>>6426217
>B-but muh prosperity gospel

>>6426271
John Paul and Francis are two sides of the same coin. Saint John Paul opposed communism because it was the prevalent threat to the people of God at the time. Francis now opposes capitalism because it is now the most prevalent threat to the people of God.

There's literally no theological or doctrinal difference between them. Francis is just talking about aspects of well-established Catholic doctrine that don't always see the light of day.

>>6426279
Is that so? I always had the idea Francis was more wishy-washy and avoidant of traditional doctrine in favor of a popular image. Unlike John Paul II, he has yet to make a stand for more controversial parts of Christianity (much like how John Paul II clearly condemned homosexuality while Francis is more ambiguous about it, leaning towards acceptance).

>>6425921
Because to 'beautify' suggests that something was never beautiful in the first place, and for something to be beautiful it has to be gold, shiny and adorned with jewels. That's one hell of an ethnocentric conception of beauty you've got going there, and if you think objective 'beauty' exists you've been deluded by the great misinformants of classical antiquity.

>>6426288
why americans are so obsessed about omosexuality?

>>6426297
What makes me think I'm American? It's just an example, you presumptuous prick.

>>6426300
you're not american?

>>6426288
Francis hasn't changed anything in Catholic teaching, and in fact has made a stir recently for coming out against gender theory and calling it bullshit. He's still very much in line with the Church's doctrine.

>>6426303
He would sort of have to unless he wanted to cause a schism regarding the male clergy.

>>6426288
>I always had the idea Francis was more wishy-washy and avoidant of traditional doctrine in favor of a popular image.
That's exactly what he's doing, whether consciously or not. Did you catch that thing where he says that if you offend someone it's their right to punch you? And he said that right after Charlie Hebdo. That is the kind of stuff you say when you want to appeal to a certain kind of people, namely those guys you see on social media policing threads they don't like and/or devising tortures for criminals.
In italy there's an idiom we use when someone's lying or being a hypocrite: "fake like a jesuit".

>>6426325
Compared to the rest of the Church, Jesuits are pretty low on the corruption scale, especially in history.

>>6426297
Why are liberals so obsessed with promoting homosexuality?

>>6426325
francesco è tutto forchè falso. Il fatto è che parla come un parroco più che come un papa.

>>6426325
You are completely misrepresentating the Pope's speech. Are you a shill ?
This is obvious strawman.

>>6426357
I'm misrepresenting nothing. The words are on video, anyone can go watch it.
You can try to rationalize it as much as you want, the fact remains that it was a retarded claim to make days from a massacre made from people who opposed to freedom of speech. It's pandering: "oh, sure, freedom here and there, and the murdering is terrible... but don't offend people or you're gonna get punched". There's tons of people who think like that, especially in italy as we seem to have hardships intellectually growing beyond middle school. He isn't even the only person who tries to cash in on this kind of sentiment.
>>6426341
>LIBRULS LIBRULS MUH LIBRULS!!!

>>6426424
Francis' point was that insulting a person's religion is not something to be done lightly. One might argue that the Charlie Hedbo massacre vindicated him.

>>6426424
Francis gave the most Christlike response I can think of. He was giving advice to Catholics. If Muslims were his followers, he would come from a different angle, obviously.

>>6426297
It's a sexy opinion, it isn't abstract and it has faces put to them