/lit/ - Literature

Hey wait, haven't you heard?

>>6408575
God is risen?

>>6408581

..

OK, well played. Carry on.

>>6408567
>What have you been reading?
Recently finished Mere Christianity
>Favorite theologian or religious scholar
The guy who wrote Ecclesiastes, but I'm hopeful for St. Augustine
>General book recommendations for other Christians
Besides the ones mentioned above, Ethics by Spinoza is great, and anything by Chesterton.
>Optional: Your denomination
Brought up United, but leaning towards Methodist based on my personal beliefs.

>>6408567

Reading: The Decameron
Favorite theologian: Saint Augustine
Recommendation: Fear and Trembling by Kierkegaard
Denomination: Lutheran

>>6408594
>The guy who wrote Ecclesiastes,

That would be King Solomon.

>>6408610
Eh, possibly. Or it's written as a first person narrative and Solomon is the main character.

Either way, great book.

>What have you been reading?
The Baghavad Gita
>Favorite theologian or religious scholar
Mircia Eliade
>General book recommendations for other Christians
Nietzsche should be read by all Christians.
>Optional: Your denomination
Catholic

>>6408567
Denominations are a spook.

>Reading a Complete History of Christianity second edition
>Favorite theologian; Wittgenstein
>Recommend Faust by Goethe

>What have you been reading?
Our Endangered Values by Jimmy Carter. Gotta say it's pretty good so far, I've always liked his writing. Hopefully he can influence the dem party to stop being so pro-abortion.
>Favorite theologian or religious scholar
Aquinas
>General book recommendations for other Christians
Mere Christianity
>Optional: Your denomination
Baptist

>>6408630

>Denominations are a spook.

Says the heretic

>>6408567

So many of you guys went full-blown atheist from 2006-2013 and are now unconsciously letting your viewpoints be formed by what's fashionable on the internet right now once again? Be honest.

>>6408644
Nope. Been subtly breadpilling my atheist friends for years.

I don't think I've converted any except my gf, but they now all identify as agnostic instead of atheist.

>>6408644
Where did you get the idea that being Christian is now fashionable on the internet?

>>6408644
fedora pls go

>>6408644
I don't I've ever been a real atheist.

>>6408598

Is it time for a Kierkegaard thread my m8?

>>6408660

How CAN'T you see it? On /lit/ especially. 4chan is reactionary and goes against the grain just for its own sake. Internet atheism reached a breaking point and now even using the word gets thoughtless knee-jerk reactions like >>6408665 and threads like this are popping where 2-4 years ago it would be shot down immediately.

>>6408685
Why do you care?

>>6408685
But is it fashionable on the internet in general, not just on /lit/?

>>6408685
>I can't sit by while other people discuss their belief in Christ. That may have been alright before I was born (in the year 2002) but since I am an atheist the whole world must also be atheist or an atheist in denial.

You need psychological help m8

>>6408685
i'm not sure how accurate this is. i've been coming to /lit/ on and off since 2009 and i don't really recall there being a lot of religious hate on here. i think people have been pretty respectful of christianity's contribution to literature since the beginning

>What have you been reading
The Literary Guide to the Bible
>Favorite theologian or religious scholar
Tillich
>General book recommendations for other Christians
Miracles, by C.S. Lewis. Analogy of Religion, Natural and Revealed, by Joseph Butler. Ash Wednesday, by T.S. Eliot. A Tale of a Tub, by Jonathan Swift.
>Optional: Your denomination
Episcopal Church, Anglo-Catholic specfically

>denominations
>implying

the only true church is christ

>>6408630
Every non-denominational church I've been to is
Baptist in practice and doctrine, they just refer to themselves as non-denominational.

>>6408567
>>What have you been reading?
Some analytical philosophy.
>>Favorite theologian or religious scholar
Herman Philipse
>>General book recommendations for other Christians
The Logic of Scientific Discovery by Karl Popper so they would understand that the hypothesis of God is unfalsifiable.
>>Optional: Your denomination
Atheist.

>>6408721
Amen.

this is kind of a wee bit off topic but does anyone have favorite hymns?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xIX6btGIn8w

>>6408727
>>6408733

>>6408747
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kWTDgc96bg8

>>6408747
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jgUZYRWYlow

>>6408747
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-xs67InkZ3A

>>6408705

No, no, no. I don't care if anyone is an atheist, a Taoist, or a Baptist.

I'm just shaking my head at the fact that so many people jumped on the atheism train and are now jumping on the Christianity train because of the internet. It's like they were just spoon-fed a viewpoint and accepted it without doing thinking of their own or having their own experiences that led them there.

Most of 4chan is around 18-22 iirc which is also a prime age that people join cults. With how lost this generation is with the economy and the ocean of information provided by the internet, this seems understandable.

I'm not frustrated that people are atheists or Christians--I'm frustrated that they reach viewpoints for shallow reasons (i.e. 4chan, talking heads on youtube, etc.) and aren't even aware of it.

I'm just asking for more people to ask themselves why they believe what they believe. 4chan has transformed enough in the last 5 years that some people who were previously self-labeled atheists are now calling themselves Christians and indulging in threads like this one. They think they've matured and found the truth by rejecting atheism and embracing Christianity and for some they probably have, but for many more it's just the same illogical jump for the same reasons to a different side of the same coin.

That's all I have to say. You can post dank meme and fedora pics all you want but some of you need to be real with yourselves.

>>6408727
I can't speak to your experience but I try to make a point of going to at least one church that I've never been before one sunday out of every month. So far I've been to Greek Orthodox, Southern Baptist, United Methodist, Catholic, Lutheran, Pentecostal, and Russian Orthodox churches respectively and from what I've gathered talking to the preachers, deacons, reverends, and church goers is that each of them finds God in their own way and doesn't necessarily subscribe to a "baptist" or "protestant" doctrine. They go there because thats where there friends and family go and it works as well as anywhere if you want to connect with God.

Been reading about the 30 years war. Ferdinand II is one of history's greatest villains and Frederick V did nothing wrong.

What are some good beginners books in theology? Preferably from a Catholic or Orthodox point of view. I'm interested in the basics, such as understanding the Trinity, the Incarnation, and the Eucharist.

How many of you converted as opposed to being born in the faith?

For those who have converted how old were you and how long have you been in the church?

To both groups what do you see as being the biggest barrier to potential converts?

>>6408747
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YEjyBLm9--4

>>6408826
>To both groups what do you see as being the biggest barrier to potential converts?
Getting them to read something, ANYTHING arguing for Christianity.

>>6408793
>because of the internet.

Nobody becomes a Christian "because of the internet." People become Christian because they experience the living God.

>I'm frustrated that they reach viewpoints for shallow reasons

Why do you presume to know the motivations behind someone else's conversion? Who are you to judge whether someone's conversion is "shallow?"

>>6408817
The Catechism of the Catholic Church. It's dry, but will give you a very good understanding of Catholic theology.

>>6408795
That's called latitudinarian indifferentism.

Do you believe in one baptism for the forgiveness of sins?

>>6408833

People become Christian for a lot of reasons, don't be silly.

I presume to know the motivations because it's common sense in a way:

-"Shallow conversions" as you put it are possible
-There are a lot of users on 4chan
-Some of them will be shallow conversions

I never said everyone, I specifically said

>They think they've matured and found the truth by rejecting atheism and embracing Christianity and for some they probably have, but for many more it's just the same illogical jump for the same reasons to a different side of the same coin.

>>6408831
What books do you generally try and get them to read?

>>6408833
Not that anon but when you see people making threads about how to become a chirstian because they dont want to be a fedora or a degenerate I think its a legitimate conclusion to make.

>>6408721
You mean the One Holy Apostolic and Catholic Church, right?

>>6408793
there are a lot of leaps in logic in this post. I doubt people determine there deepest convictions based off memes of people wearing hats. Anyone who takes 4chan or the rest of the internet so seriously that it shapes their philosophical worldview is someone who needs serious help. I think there is a lot of projection and you're kind of all over the place talking of the economy and cults.

>>6408862
I find it tremendously amusing that you seem to regard yourself as an expert on people whom you've never met.

>These dumb christfags on 4chan! They think they've matured but I know better! I know them better than they know themselves!

>>6408871
tare teir

>>6408865
>how to become a chirstian because they dont want to be a fedora or a degenerate

Those are both valid reasons for becoming a Christian and I don't understand why you seem to think otherwise.

>>6408871
Yes, the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church

>>6408862
Lets assume you're correct, Why does it bother you? It obviously affects you enough to the point you feel like you want to dissuade them.

>>6408887
Because that is a very different reason than those mentioned in >>6408833.

>>6408877
NO ANON! I KNOW WHY OTHER PEOPLE CONVERT! ITS ONLY BECAUSE OF DANK MEMES! IF IT WASNT FOR LE FEDORA MAYMAY WE WOULD HAVE COLONIES ON MARS BY NOW BUT STUPID CHRISTFAGS JUST HAVE TO KEEP ON OPPRESSING FREE THINKING AND SCIENCE!

>>6408865
>What books do you generally try and get them to read?
I've tried many different books. Most recently it's been Mere Christianity.

One guy I spoke to had The God Delusion on his shelf and insisted I read it. I did, poked holes in all the arguments made, and asked him to read a book on Christianity since I read his book.

He then admitted to me that he hadn't actually read Dawkins' book, and wasn't going to read mine.

>>6408894
If realizing that being a fedora or a degenerate is undesirable leads someone to seek Christ then it is clear that they hearing the living God speak to them.

>>6408931
Not really those users seem to be picking their faith like one picks a car or a career. Rather than as a result of experiencing the holy spirit.

>>6408952
What makes you so sure they haven't experienced the Holy Spirit?

Why do you presume to know another's heart?

>>6408581
>theres no Kierkegaard

>>6408858
>Do you believe in one baptism for the forgiveness of sins?
Short answer No, Long answer I think it serves as one of those symbolic ceremonies that are important on a psychological level. If I may quote Joseph Campbell

>The tribal ceremonies of birth, initiation, marriage, burial, installation, and so forth, serve to translate the individual’s life-crises and life-deeds into classic, impersonal forms. They disclose him to himself, not as this personality or that, but as the warrior, the bride, the widow, the priest, the chieftain; at the same time rehearsing for the rest of the community the old lesson of the archetypal stages.

>>6408931
There really isn't a more disgusting and unlikable guy than Buckley, in all of history.

>>6408962
I base that statement on the nature of their posts which lack reference to such a powerful experience and which are often combined with an un christian fetish of the material world, monarchical government and the crusades .

>Why do you presume to know another's heart?

I ask you the same question. As for myself it would be wishful thinking on my part to belive that all people who fit this category have experienced the holy spirit. Especially when you consider it within the context of their other words and actions

>>6408644
when are retards like you going to realize there is no ideological objectivity. and as such, people will believe what they want no matter how true or untrue a claim is. i dont understand why this surprises you.

There might be a very obvious answer to this, but why do a lot of christians that morals don't exist without (their) religion, when they already have to nitpick the bible to get what we today have as moral standards?
Surely if they are able to see that these things are wrong, even if the bible say they are not, we clearly don't need religion to tell us what is right and wrong.

>>6409006
could you re-phrase that in better english?

Are this and its Old Testament counterpart the best bibles using the KJV?

>>6408983
How droll.

>>6408984
>their posts which lack reference to such a powerful experience and which are often combined with an un christian fetish of the material world, monarchical government and the crusades .

I think you're putting too much stock in what gets written on a Mongolian cartoon webpage.

>I ask you the same question.

I do not know your heart. I only know that you've been calling into question other people's faith which is a silly thing to do because it does not concern you.

>>6408972
I know. . . I know. . .

>>6408980
So you don't even think the Apostles' Creed is valid, okay. Only a handful of Christian denominations are actually okay with this, but Baptists are the major ones who are. You'd probably be Congregationalist though, since a lot of them are indifferentialist, and I doubt many other denominations would even be willing to consider you a Christian, since you don't think baptism is a sacrament.

>>6409014
:(
why do christians claim to need the bible to know what's morally right or wrong, when they are already able to decide what's morally right or wrong within the bible?

>>6409025
dude got fucking annihilated by chomsky, and i love chomchom for it.

>>6409025
When you felt the holy spirit did it tell you to revel in the crusades and racism+nationalism?

>I do not know your heart.

When wrote that I was referring to you making assumptions about those posters experiencing the holy spirit. Despite the contrary evidence rather than your thoughts on my own heart.

>you've been calling into question other people's faith which is a silly thing to do because it does not concern you.

The state of christendom and the nature of converts is a concern of all christians myself included.

>>6408980
So you don't even think the Nicene Creed is valid, okay. Only a handful of Christian denominations are actually okay with this, but Baptists are the major ones who are. You'd probably be Congregationalist though, since a lot of them are indifferentialist, and I doubt many other denominations would even be willing to consider you a Christian, since you don't think baptism is a sacrament.

>>6409050
This answer will probably irritate you but we are not able to decide what's morally right or wrong within the Bible. For example, the binding of Isaac is often touted by non-believers as a time when God acted immorally. In order to understand why the binding of Isaac was justified, one needs to become familiar with the larger spiritual milieu in which Abraham lived and this requires one to study the rest of the Bible.

>>6408644
>tfw got breadpilled over the past few years
>tfw regaining the faith
>tfw reading the gnostics
Read up on some of the original sects of Christianity, there's some good stuff. Lot of crazy stuff, but some good stuff too.

>>6409058
Your original question was is baptism a literal forgiveness of all previous sins by God. I never said I didn't believe it was a sacrament. There are aspects of the Nicene creed I agree with and some I don't.

Do you always view things so categorically?

Name three theologians every christian should read.

hard mode: No augustine, aquinas or anything from the bread pill copy pasta

>>6409057
>When you felt the holy spirit did it tell you to revel in the crusades and racism+nationalism?

The Crusades were an entirely justified response to almost 300 years of unchecked Muslim aggression and there is nothing wrong with being proud of one's nation. God Himself divided the people into tribes.

>The state of christendom and the nature of converts is a concern of all christians myself included.

You have my respect and prayers.

>>6409054

Were we watching the same debate? Buckley ravaged Chomsky the entire time. This is the Vietnam debate right? Chomsky got btfo

>>6409019
Yes, besides Robert Alter's OT translation, and the Anchor Yale Bible, KJ is the only patrician translation (that is of course factoring it as a a revision and improvement of prior patrician translations), and of the three it is the only one used in churches.

The Norton Critical Bible is a must if you want more than a pleb's grasp of the depth of Biblical narrative, so you can understand it as people did in the time it was written. It's also very good for understanding how the Bible impacted literature.

>>6409072
So you think it's morally right to kill someone working on a sunday, to shun gays and keep slaves?

>>6409083
My original question is whether you believe in *one* baptism for the forgiveness of sins, which is something from the Nicene Creed.

>>6408581
>no Seven Storey Mountain
>no Kingdom of God Is Within You

>>6409107
Are you serious?

>>6409115
Also, you don't see it as a sacrament, because you think it is purely symbolic and psychological. Do you understand what a sacrament is?

>>6409118

100%. I'm actually amazed that you think Chomsky performed well at all.

>>6409099
>The Crusades were an entirely justified response to almost 300 years of unchecked Muslim aggression

They were not though and came in complete contradiction of christs teachings and life. Only those who have a love of the temporary and earthly life had reason to fear Islam.

>God Himself divided the people into tribes.

And christ untied them in his universal message of salvation and love for ones fellow man.

How do you people deal with the problem of evil?

>>6409095

Kierkegaard
Kierkegaard
Kierkegaard

>>6409125
>>6409125
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theodicy

>>6409121
Did you watch a censored or edited version or something?

>>6409125
>>6409129
>Christian Science offers a rational, though widely unacceptable, solution to the problem by denying that evil ultimately exists.

>>6409113
You sound like a Pharisee.

>kill someone working on a sunday

When did Jesus do that? I am a Christian which means I want to be like Christ.

>shun gays

Homosexuality is a sin. I have no animosity towards homosexuals, I pity them.

>keep slaves

No, but slavery is a fact of life and as such it is appropriate for the Bible to address it. I believe slaves are obligated to obey the just commands of their masters.

>>6409125
Well if we didn't have the choice to sin, that is move away from God, then he'd have to force us to love him, which really isn't love

>>6409148
Oh nevermind then, i made the mistake of assuming you were a functioning citizen.

>>6409148
>I believe slaves are obligated to obey the just commands of their masters.
This is true, but of course there is no such thing as a just command from a slave owner to a slave.

>>6409130

Nope, I've seen the full debate twice. I used it when I assisted teaching a debate class alongside the Buckley vs Reagan debate from 78.

Do you remember when Chomsky claimed that "no one serious claims that 1,000,000 people were killed in the Chinese communists purges..." Chomsky was talking out his ass the entire time.

>>6409158
Shalom.

>>6409163
Kantian I presume?

New convert here. Belong to Lutheran church at the moment. Recommend some books for me to read, already bought a good amount from the bread pill list. What else should I get?

>>6409125
Job 38-
38 Then the Lord answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said,

2 Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge?

3 Gird up now thy loins like a man; for I will demand of thee, and answer thou me.

4 Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.

5 Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?

6 Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;

7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

8 Or who shut up the sea with doors, when it brake forth, as if it had issued out of the womb?

9 When I made the cloud the garment thereof, and thick darkness a swaddlingband for it,

10 And brake up for it my decreed place, and set bars and doors,

11 And said, Hitherto shalt thou come, but no further: and here shall thy proud waves be stayed?

12 Hast thou commanded the morning since thy days; and caused the dayspring to know his place;

13 That it might take hold of the ends of the earth, that the wicked might be shaken out of it?

14 It is turned as clay to the seal; and they stand as a garment.

15 And from the wicked their light is withholden, and the high arm shall be broken.

16 Hast thou entered into the springs of the sea? or hast thou walked in the search of the depth?

17 Have the gates of death been opened unto thee? or hast thou seen the doors of the shadow of death?

18 Hast thou perceived the breadth of the earth? declare if thou knowest it all.

19 Where is the way where light dwelleth? and as for darkness, where is the place thereof,

20 That thou shouldest take it to the bound thereof, and that thou shouldest know the paths to the house thereof?

21 Knowest thou it, because thou wast then born? or because the number of thy days is great?

22 Hast thou entered into the treasures of the snow? or hast thou seen the treasures of the hail,

23 Which I have reserved against the time of trouble, against the day of battle and war?

24 By what way is the light parted, which scattereth the east wind upon the earth?

25 Who hath divided a watercourse for the overflowing of waters, or a way for the lightning of thunder;

26 To cause it to rain on the earth, where no man is; on the wilderness, wherein there is no man;

27 To satisfy the desolate and waste ground; and to cause the bud of the tender herb to spring forth?

28 Hath the rain a father? or who hath begotten the drops of dew?

29 Out of whose womb came the ice? and the hoary frost of heaven, who hath gendered it?

30 The waters are hid as with a stone, and the face of the deep is frozen.

31 Canst thou bind the sweet influences of Pleiades, or loose the bands of Orion?

32 Canst thou bring forth Mazzaroth in his season? or canst thou guide Arcturus with his sons? etc.

>>6409165
>cherrypicks chomsky
>disregards all the fallacies and historical mistakes buckley made

>>6409172
>Kantian I presume?
No, just Episcopalian.

>>6408685
"militant" atheism is on the decline, but people aren't suddenly getting religious. if anything, everyone's just calling themselves "agnostic" for a while until the thing blows over.

>>6409173
Well if you're Lutheran, Hegel and Kierkegaard obviously.

Which Lutheran denomination are you?

>>6409173
The book of concord is the most important document for any lutheran to read after the bible

>>6409176

Anyone who defends mao and pretends that the cultural revolution was not the single greatest slaughter of the past 100 years is not worth taking seriously.

At least Buckley had a factual basis for the majority of his claims during the debate, Chomsky was just willfully blind to the horrors of the north Vietnamese and the communists. He's like a teenager that's so obsessed with hating the west that he'll excuse all the wrong doings of other countries.

I'm also guessing you think that all forms of colonialism were terrible and that imperialism is an inherit evil. No wonder you like Chomsky.

>>6409190
>Episcopalian

>>6409219
And just which denomination are you?

>>6409206
>that the cultural revolution was not the single greatest slaughter of the past 100 years is not worth taking seriously.

So if someone said that WWII was not the greatest slaughter of the past 100 years you would not take them seriously despite the vastly greater destruction and death?

>>6409197

My church is just called "the lutheran church of [town]." They're with the Lutheran Church Missouri Synod though.

>>6409229
Presbyterian.

>>6409238
Since you don't even think marriage is a sacrament, I don't see what you're complaining about.

>>6409235
Are they fundamentalists?

>>6409245
Homosexuality is detestable and should not be given sanction by the Church.

>>6409230

The Second World War is a lot different from a government destroying its own people for ideological reasons. Perhaps I should have said persecution, extermination or genocide instead of slaughter. The point still stands though, Chomsky was essentially covering up the extermination of nearly 80,000,000 people.

>>6409251

I'm pretty sure that Same Hyde was just trying to trigger a room full of hipsters with all that. If I'm not mistaken he actually doesn't harbor any hostility towards homosexuals.

>>6409251
Since you don't even consider marriage as a sacrament, I don't see what you're complaining about. Episcopal priests can officiate at same-sex weddings for legal and ceremonial purposes, but they can only confer the sacrament of marriage between a man and a woman. Presbyterians don't even believe that marriage is a sacrament, you might as well say anyone can perform a marriage and unperform it whenever they feel like it, with a finger snap. If you don't actually see matrimony as holy sacrament, you have zero business complaining about an issue like this.

>>6409251
wait, did this really happen?
why would that get him booed?

>>6409272

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jjPQ_jVlEnQ

>>6409251

Literally says "we are not homophobes" before the stand up even starts. He's trolling m8.

>>6409271
>I don't see what you're complaining about.

I am complaining that a person purporting to be a representative of God's own church is facilitating and endorsing an illicit relationship.

>you have zero business complaining about an issue like this.

I will rebuke those who disregard Scripture.

>>6409287
>>6409251
what? what he said wasn't homophobic at all.

>>6409262
>he point still stands though, Chomsky was essentially covering up the extermination of nearly 80,000,000 people.

You just doubled the highest estimate of people killed in the great leap forward. Likewise WWII most of those deaths were killed by violence rather than horrific incompetence leading to famine which is what makes the deaths all the more worse.

Was the great leap foward a disaster: Yes

Was it the greatest famine of the 20th Century: Yes

Was it the greatest persecution, extermination or genocide: No that was WWII

>The Second World War is a lot different from a government destroying its own people for ideological reasons.

You think exterminating people based on race and political allegiance is not ideological?

You severely underestimate the horror of the Second World War, the darkest years in all human history.

Chompsky might have been a dick and outright wrong but your mistakes are far worse.

>>6409297
When your church actually recognizes marriage at all and pulls the plank out of its eye, then we can talk.

>>6409118
>>6409120
>Sacrament (n.) -- a religious ceremony or act of the Christian Church that is regarded as an outward and visible sign of inward and spiritual divine grace.
Nothing I said contradicts the above definition. I think the problem here is you seem to be inferring a lot (incorrectly) about my beliefs from the limited questions you asked me, then trying to categorize me into some preconceived idea of a subcategory of christianity. You'll find it's a religion very open to individual interpretation friend.

>>6409304

>WWII darkest years in human history.
>Not WWI or the plague.

If you're slavic than I get why you think it's the darkest period tho

>>6409306
And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
- Romans 1:27

>>6409306

Are the Catholics the only ones who consider marriage to be a sacrament?

>>6409308
Right, and you don't consider baptism that. You said baptism is purely symbolic and psychological, as opposed to an outward manifestation of the Holy Spirit making an indelible mark upon the soul.

>>6409320
>Not WWI or the plague.

>Forgetting the horrors suffered by the Chinese and South East Asians.

WWI was nothing compared to WWII. The horrors of the trench warfare are nothing compared to the brutal urban fighting, firebombing, mass rape + slavery and the hellish war on the eastern front.

>>6409322
He also said it was unseemly for men to have long hair.

>>6409324
No.
http://www.episcopalchurch.org/page/sacraments

Also Orthodox considers it a sacrament.

>>6408567
>the Nibelungenlied

>not sure. I don't know enough about any single theologian to have a favorite

>general reading or religious reading? If general I'm gonna say "the warwolf" by Löns.

>my church doesn't focus on denomination but it is considered baptist

>>6408630
>Faust
Nice

>>6408793

So you know all the posters of /lit/ in real life ? How are you identifying the pro Christian posters from this year with ones who were formerly atheist 2-4 years ago ?, considering 4chan is anonymous you are either psychic or full of shit.

> William Lane Craig's works on the Cosmological argument, Boethius and Duns Scotus on Divine Foreknowledge and Human Freedom.
> Duns Scotus
> Any of the Scholastics. Thomas is great but people should check out other Scholastic Theologians and Philosophers. For modern stuff, Peter Geach and P.T Anscombe are pretty based.
> I'm unbaptized, but I do intend on being baptized and joining the Society of St.Pious X when I feel myself to be at a point when I can genuinely embrace it. I was a hardline anti-theist for a long time, but did allot of growing out throughout University and now I understand that traditional Catholicism has everything I want in a religion. I care less about Jesus and the Bible than I do Catholicism as a tradition, the integration of everything worthwhile in the pagan world, with all the specifically Christian intellectual and moral developments added on attracts me allot.There is too much egalitarianism, liberalism and subjectivism in some Protestant sects, and others are embarrassingly literalist. I want Scholastic Rigor, spooky semi-pagan rituals spoken in Latin and that immense pagan aesthetic. Traditional Catholicism also has good means to combat democracy, egalitarianism, and the kind of animalistic degeneration we have been subject to in the west for the last few hundred years. It also maintains love, charity, modesty which gets lost by non Catholic reactionaries allot of the time.

>>6409349
That you adopt such a flippant attitude towards the Apostle's teachings is revealing. Coming from an Episcopalian I can't say I'm surprised!

>>6408567
Why did the Jews hate butt-fucking so much? The Greeks and Romans had a robust philosophical, political, and artistic culture. What did they share in common? Brotherly love. What did the dark ages after that lack? Homo-sex.

>>6409340
I said specifically that many times it serves as that.But I think you're correct that was a bad way of phrasing it. please allow me to clarify.

I believe it can be more than psychological and symbolic, but many times it isn't. I think one could consider a junkie waking up one day and thinking "gee I'd better stop shooting dope so I can live to see my kids get married" a kind of baptism, provided that he actually changes his life. I am a Christian but I put no faith in any institution, only God.

>>6409381
My attitude isn't flippant at all. The Apostles were not always right, or else there never would have been the Incident at Antioch. Paul's Epistles are not to be considered out of context for the situations they were addressing, and he was probably dealing with the rampant pederasty, orgies and sex slaves of the ancient world. To take his words out of context with what they're referring to, would make Romans 13:1-7 a very bizarre passage, and especially damning for Calvinists.

>>6409397
But, see, you're talking about churches which don't have Apostolic Succession. Churches which actually have Apostolic Succession don't do drive-through baptisms, you need a sponsor, and you have to get a certificate for it and it takes some time after you make the request.

>>6408567
>What have you been reading?
Vichy by R. O. Paxton, and am re-reading 'Huey Long' by Williams.
>Favorite theologian or religious scholar
Aquinas is always a favorite to read, so's Augustine.
>General book recommendations for other Christians
Huey Long by Williams is probably the best book you can get on the guy. Fascinating person. Bit crazy, too. The Spanish Civil War by Hugh Thomas is also really good.
>Optional: Your denomination
Roman Catholic, although I'm feeling a stronger pull towards the gnostic beliefs and literature for the moment.

>>6409397
>I think one could consider a junkie waking up one day and thinking "gee I'd better stop shooting dope so I can live to see my kids get married" a kind of baptism,
Also, that's not a baptism. A baptism is an establishment of a covenant, it is not just something that goes on and off: you might break the covenant, but once you are married to God, you are married for life and the hereafter.

>>6409409
I was raised Catholic but never confirmed. I understand how Apostolic succession works but it never entered into my personal faith. I find many of the church manifestos, parts of the Nicene creed for example, to be superfluous to my spiritual faith and only interesting to me from a historical perspective.

It could be that I just want to be a special little snowflake and defy the categorization of a church. I've never been to a congregationalist church and maybe I would fit right in there. The Russian orthodox church I go to every week seems to accept me. But to me the bottom line is I don't think I need the acceptance of an institution to get to heaven or to follow His direction.

>>6409456
How can you say you're accepted if you're not even allowed to receive communion?

>>6409420
>am re-reading 'Huey Long' by Williams.

You have good taste my friend.

>>6409469
>>6409430
I think the problem we have (an have had since the beginning of our discussion) is that I hold that faith is separate from institution and ceremony. You seem to disagree.

To me a ceremony like communion or a baptism is meaningless without real faith. There are a lot of examples of people who have been baptized going on to sin and live un christian lives and so on, rationalizing that because they have been baptized this makes them christians and thus on the right side of God. This is an example there are many examples like you pointed out where a covenant is established and one is married to God for life. Do you mind if I ask what denomination you are?

>>6409515
No one lives a sinless life. What matters is atoning for one's sins.

I'm Episcopalian. I'm Anglo-Catholic, though, so I believe in Purgatory: if you're baptized, you're going to heaven; but if you stopped being a Christian and haven't atoned for your sins before you die, you will have to go to Purgatory for them before you can get into heaven.

>>6409594
Or rather I should said repentance,: who can't atone for our own sins, atonement is accomplsihed through Christ's brutal death.

So how old do you guys think the earth is?

Does it matter?

>>6410002
That's not a theological concern.

>>6410015
Isnt it rather important for literalists?

>>6410147
Fundamentalism is not a part of any of the theologically meritable Christian denominations (Catholic, Orthodox, Anglican, Mainline Protestant, etc.).

>>6408685

>>6409251
>>6409251
>using science to prove a point outlined in the Bible

Nigga...

How does one reconcile God's love with his abandonment?

>>6409125
Without evil there is no good

>>6410195
So without evil there is no God?

>>6410150
On what basis do you judge denominations as "meritable"

>>6410198
God is the alpha and the omega, He doesn't need anything else to exist for himself to exist

Why is the Book of Job so difficult for me to read? I'm really trying hard to understand it in an Old Testament context, because despite being a Catholic, I'm kind of dissatisfied with the explanation "The whole truth hadn't been revealed yet!" that you typically get handed for wisdom literature.

My biggest issue is that the book seems to imply that human justice is not a concern of God. Of course Job gets repaid at the end, but scholars have noted that this ending may have been written by some redactionist interesred in forwarding the doctrine of retribution (faith = good things happen). But it certainly isnt hard to imagine Job ending in despair, because it happens IRL (see the holocaust). If you take that view of God, he seems quite detached. But at the same time he concedes to speak with Job personally.

For me I think that the book shows, if you are willing to question authority and persist, you will maybe not learn the truth (after all God doesnt give Job answers), but learn a new way of looking at things.

The thing that worries me about this book however, is that it makes me wonder from where morality stems. Is it really from God? Or is God leaving it up to us?

>>6410216
AMEN!

>>6410216
Then why was the universe created? Shouldn't it have always existed if God is infinite?

>>6410226
>Is it really from God? Or is God leaving it up to us?

It's pretty evident from God killing the only tie to our world that he left us alone.

>>6410216
But he would cease to be good without evil, and since "good" is part of God's definition, he'd ceases to exist.

>>6410226
>human justice is not a concern of God.

There is no such thing as "human justice" there is only God's Justice.

>where morality stems.

God.

Take the second horn:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euthyphro_dilemma#The_second_horn

>Is it really from God?

Yes.

>Or is God leaving it up to us?

We get to decide whether to obey or not.

>>6410230
>Why was the universe created

Ask God why he caused the big bang

>Shouldn't it have always existed
No, because God is the uncaused causer and the unmoved mover, he created something when there was nothing

>>6410244
>No, because God is the uncaused causer and the unmoved mover, he created something when there was nothing

You're not understanding the point. The fact that the universe was created means He was without. There was no universe before him. BUT, if he is omnipotent than there cannot be something he is without.

This is where we get into necessity and how God has no will because he can't as the infinite.

>>6410150
protestants and catholics have vastly different theologies

I almost take and apples to oranges point of view

>>6410257
1 Cor 1:19

>>6410241
God exists independent of everything, you say he is inherently good and yes you are right, but we see him as good because we see and know what evil is and we see that he is not that, we see him as good because we have a measure of what evil is, if we take away the measure of evil this does not mean the good dissapears it just means we cannot compare it anymore

>without evil there is no good

Without a measuring stick of what good is not we cannot say what good is, that does not mean it isn't there

>>6410204
I said "theologically meritable", that is they had theology backing their creation. The Church of England, for instance, was not theologically meritable when first created under Henry VIII, it was purely political; it was effectively abolished under Mary, but when reinstated under Elizabeth I, it had a great deal of theological basis from the reformist movement.

The fundamentalists denominations had pretty much no theological basis for their schism. The Southern Baptist Convention, for instance split from Mainline Baptists because they wanted to ordain slave owners; even if you DID think this was important, it's hardly a good enough reason for a schism, a schism requires ground for thinking your church is making several grievous theological errors, which could not possibly be construed from that. And the SBC, which online the Baptists they split from, is now fundamentalist, but they'd all think it was horrendous to for slave owners to be ordained. Thus their existence is theologically shoddy.

>>6410269
You know that's a shitty verse. And a cop out on top of it.

The fundamental problems of God's will still remain.

Also
>he created something when there was nothing
So we don't even need him seeing as there is proof something must come from nothing?

>>6410257
>BUT, if he is omnipotent than there cannot be something he is without.
I'm not sure if I quite follow this part. Surely omnipotence isn't the same thing as "omniencompassment," is it?

>>6410271
>God exists independent of everything

Hmmm, that's weird seeing as there are tons of verses talking about God being within all of us.

>>6410287
Omnipotence and omniscience go hand in hand. Are we to say that there are things God didn't know before the the universe was created? It didn't exist before God, thus therein lies the problem. Something was absent of God, therefore he made it. Meaning, he isn't omniscient or omnipotent.

Additionally, if something is going to be all-being, we are all apart of it. Nothing else can exist independent of infinity.

>>6410277
There is no such thing as a "s***** verse."

>>6410288
I think in this context, independent means "not dependent on." As in X is dependent on God but not the other way around.

>>6410294
Isn't that resolved if God has knowledge of future entities?

Can you teenage fuddy duddies give me a tl;dr version of the bible?

Any of the bible revisions is fine.

>>6410305
Pic related.

>>6410306
>saved
>from what i'm going to do to you

Why doesn't he just not do it?

>>6410242
Ok I think I am underatanding more clearly now.

So you think that Job implies humans are responsible for upholding justice and preventing evil on earth? How does God play into that schema? Is there a difference between the chaos God conquers and the evil humans experience?

>>6410305
tl;dr You must struggle with your own nature and strive for the perfect good. This appears to be physically but not psychologically possible, so by accepting the symbol of the possibility of the perfect good, you dedicate yourself to its pursuit.

>>6410310
Read Mere Christianity m8. It's not long, and explains all that.

>>6410310
We are guilty and justice must served to the unrepentant. He is a righteous God.

>>6410322
your dualist is showing

>>6410324
I see.

>>6410322
>>6410326
To start as scum and be told you'll never be above scum seems like a fairly bad way to motive people. If I do the best I can through the week, and on Sunday I'm told (or rather, I admit) that "Nah, I'm shit" it begs the question of "Why bother?"

Have you considered an achievable goal, like Nirvana, as a more realistic achievement with a visible goalpost?

>>6410294

No.

You aren't taking into account that God created time with the world. Thus in the first moment of time the world and time was there already, there is no "before" the creation. God has ontological priority over the universe, not temporal priority. So there was never a time when anything was absent to God.

Your second argument is a panentheistic /pantheistic one, one solution to say that everything is just a derivation from God anyways, all of our reality comes from him, hence we are all linked to him in a sense. This is part of why Christ comes into the flesh, unlike with the Jews the Christians see man and god as united.

>>6410338
>To start as scum

We started perfect. We chose to become scum.

>"Why bother?"

Eternal life.

>a visible goalpost?

We live by faith, not by sight.

>>6410346
All I'm seeing is shoehorning in weird logical gymnastics to avoid explaining god away.

>>6410350
>We chose to become scum.
No original sin?

>>6410334
rephrased ideally, we can just say that the perfect good appears to be attainable but nobody has been able to do it.

>>6410338
Not scum but simply less than perfect. Just because you're less than perfect doesn't mean that perfection is an unworthy pursuit.

>>6410354
>perfection
Very open to interpretation though, and maliable over time. The 100AD idea of "perfection" and the 2015 idea are leagues apart. Perhaps you're due for another revision.

>>6410353
>No original sin?

There's that as well but it's corollary because I guarantee you've sinned before; we all have.

>>6410360
That's a good criticism and I don't know if there is a possible satisfactory answer without appealing to revelation.

I'm gonna pull the big reveal that I'm actually a former christian thinking what would make sense to me currently, so I apologize to you currently practicing ones if I said anything heretical.

>>6410360
Perfection is a constant.

t. Plato

thanks for ruining /lit/, Christians

I'm sure you're satisfied with shitting all over something constantly, as you typically are

but hey, who in their right mind would call belief in ancient Mid East myths crazy or ill-informed?

>>6410353

The world depends on God, but God does not depend on the world. In a counterfactual situation where the world did not exist God still would, in a counterfactual situation where God did not exist the world would not exist. Hence God has ontological priority over us and can be said to be the cause of our creation. But this does not mean that there was ever a time when the world was not created and was absent from God, thus there never was a time when God lacked anything. Likewise if you want to say" what about new creatures?", God sees all of time unfolded-beginning to end in one eternal gaze, and there never was a time when he did not, since time did not exist before creation, nor can we even genuinely talk about a "before" creation, we can only talk about what has ontological priority to it. Temporal priority only comes in when we talk about beings within time in comparison to one another.

>>6410381

You're really overreacting.

>>6410381
Loosen up.

>>6410310
>Eternal death in our rejection of God (BCP, p. 862). This state or place of separation from God is closely related to the concept of human free will. We may choose to accept or reject God. We will not be forced by God to receive God's love. Hell is a permanent state of separation from God that can be freely chosen, not God's angry punishment for misdeeds.

http://archive.episcopalchurch.org/109399_14480_ENG_HTM.htm

The Temptation of Saint Anthony

>>6408747
The Acathist Hymn.
A good YouTube video to listen is that of Agni Parthene (Pure Virgin) written by Saint Nektarios and chanted by the Athonite fathers of Simonopetra monasteryIt isn't related to the Acathist but it is nice

>>6408817
The Orthodox Church by Kallistos Ware is a good introduction in Orthodoxy. You can see the catholic fallacies in it.
http://www.amazon.com/The-Orthodox-Church-New-Edition/dp/0140146563

Search it on libgen

>not /lit/
>not philosophy
>just crazy

this shit and the marxism can fuck off

>>6410719
>not /lit/
thats what you think

>not philosophy
thats what you think

>just crazy
thats what you think

>this shit and the marxism can fuck off
you can fuck off

>>6408567
I read lately Νηπτιkή Θεωρία , meaning neptic contemplation ( on the Jesus prayer and theosis).The philokalia contains similar texts.

Elder Sophronios texts are great he's a modern theologian as many orthodox clerics say and soon to be sanctified.Miracles have been reported for him now and even when he was alive in Essex.Many orthodox Christians that were going to UK for cancer operations in the 80s used to go to his monastery in Essex to get his blessings and his prayers.Some of them were miraculously healed prior to the surgery.

Before the Easter I had the blessing to visit Mount Athos.It was a great honour to visit and get the blessings of Elder Gabriel of Koutloumousi.He was a neighbour and co ascete with Saint Paisios the Athonite for 15 years.They recognise him now as one of the great alive ascetes on Mount Athos.It was a life changing experience.

A great read will be Saint Paisios ' ELDER PAISIOS of Mount Athos

by Hieromonk Isaac
Translated by
Hieromonk Alexis (Trader) PhD, and Fr Peter Heers' if you can get it on your hands.

>>6408567
If you have an orthodox parish or Church nearby go and ask them to borrow this book.It's life changing.

>>6408567
>What have you been reading?
Memoirs from beyond the grave, I'm finishing up Tome II

>Favorite theologian or religious scholar
Saint Augustine

>General book recommendations for other Christians
De Civitate Dei, Confessions, Summa Theologica, Treaty of the Holy Spirit,

>Optional: Your denomination
If you couldn't tell from the above, Roman Catholic

>>6408644
>So many of you guys went full-blown atheist from 2006-2013 and are now unconsciously letting your viewpoints be formed by what's fashionable on the internet right now once again? Be honest.

Could not fucking agree more, glad someone else finally said it. There was a period on 4chan across all boards where mentioning Christianity would've gotten you marked so hard from so many people you would've just given up your faith right there.

4chan is obsessed with being the counterculture. This concept will not die. Whatever is popular and mainstream, this site will find ways to adopt the opposite position.

Case in point: /pol/. People who are at heart despicable racists on every possible charge yet are now, mostly, calling themselves 'Christians' and hardcore right-wing since liberalism fell out off hipness when it was adopted by hipsters and SJW's. Four years ago if you were a young conservative in America you'd be a retard, now it's the opposite

>there are actually people on 4chan right now who became religious because someone edited a fake quote into a picture of a fat guy wearing a hat

Truly debunks /lit/ in particular and 4chan in general as intellectual

>>6410839
That's not a hat in OP's picture, that's his hair.

And I'm pretty sure the Latin written on that book isn't fake...

>>6410830
And I can't say I blame you. Militant atheism has flooded social media without being asked. Dawkins is a prick. The attitude other people are "idiots" for taking up a different position than you is truly ugly, and not something I'd want to be associated with either. The Church is looking pretty good these days, with Pope whatever telling people to blaze it up and have a few abortions. And some Christian philosophy is admittedly quite interesting.

But at the end of the day, stfu, you're attaching yourself a worldview that is extraordinarily unlikely to be true, of all the religions that exist

>>6410839
I think all these new atheist blowhards have made people wake up to the fact that a lot of atheism is incredulous and doesn't account or match up to the human experience. It falls short of explaining our reality in any satisfactory way, and only becomes more apparent when you see buffoons like Hitchens and Dawkins on TV.

>>6410854

None of that increases the truth value of religion. I care about what's true first, not which story is sold in the best fashion

>>6410830
>There was a period on 4chan across all boards where mentioning Christianity would've gotten you marked so hard from so many people you would've just given up your faith right there.
4chan is not your hugbox, fagtron. 4chan is an anonymous shitposting pen for people of all kinds of contradictory persuasions.

>>6410854
>4chan 5 years ago

I think all these new religious blowhards have made people wake up to the fact that a lot of religious belief is incredulous and doesn't account or match up to the human experience. It falls short of explaining our reality in any satisfactory way, and only becomes more apparent when you see buffoons like Phelps and the televangelists on TV.

>>6410849
This is mostly a cultural difference. In the UK being right comes before being polite. In the third world and the US, you must be polite first, and politeness is defined of course by the most easily offended. Such as SJWs and the religious.

Christians are everywhere and most of them read about after life experiences 6 year olds have. Christianity is not edgy nor reactionary. Being a 'le smarter than atheists and scientists by reading theologians' 4chan Christian is, which even most Christians find insufferable.

Why would a religiousfag even browse some shitty internet imageboard about Vietnamese cartoons that's famous because of pedohpilia and cyberbullying teens to suicide?

You will go to hell and you now it. Don't even try to repent, God isn't that stupid.

>>6410849
>stfu
Fuck off, retard.

>>6410830
The teenagers of 4chan back in the day have grown up and cringed at what they were. Think about how 4chan used to be, and how they whined when it started to change about anonymous used to be "feared and respected". Do you realize how fucking retarded that sounded? And of course as adults, people on 4chan are going to re-evaluate many of the things they used took take for granted, including religion, that's part of critical thinking, even if Christianity seems ridiculous.

As for /pol/, 4chan was *always* racist, /pol/ just became the hive of people who took their racism very seriously, as opposed to those who were just acted racist to be edgy. When racism becomes your central ideology and what your worldview revolves around, Nazism obviously becomes much more appealing, hence why Stormfronters could sell it so well on /pol/. Even their *anti* Christian attitude is reflected in this, with Christianity being accused of being a Jew religion which is against the true "white man's religion" of Norse shit. Their pro Christianity is reflected in this as well, with Jews and Arabs being hated as paynims. If Christianity is gaining traction there, it is utterly and solely because Christianity says women are social inferiors to men, it has nothing to do with the fedora meme.

>>6410915
>The teenagers of 4chan back in the day have grown up and cringed at what they were
If they cringed so hard at what they were they aren't on 4chan anymore. Being a Christian/Muslim/whatever kind of moralfag HERE from all places is retarded.

>>6410921
You do know that /b/ is not the only board here?

>>6410921
>we're such ruthless internet trolls! everyone fears us we are beyond good and evil™!

LOL not everybody is as scared as you atheistfags as you think. We mostly just laugh at you.

(and then pray for you)

>>6410924
There are FAR worse boards than /b/, newfriend.
>>6410931
>We mostly just laugh at you.
>(and then pray for you)
God sure loves how you can be such hypocritical faggots. I'd like to be able to believe in him so I could be an asshole and then be totally forgotten by just saying "sowy" to him.

>>6410937
>forgotten
forgiven*

>>6410937
>I'd like to be able to believe in him so I could be an asshole and then be totally forgotten by just saying "sowy" to him.
Yeah, of course, you're also expected to forgive everyone who has wronged you as part of that.

>>6410948
If that's the condition then I'm going to have a good laugh in hell when I meet every religiousfag I've ever known.

>>6410952
Yeah, I think that's the whole point of the parable of the ungrateful servant. And the Lord's Prayer pledges forgiveness of others in kind for God's forgiveness.

>>6410931
>(and then pray for you)

You're talking to no one. You sit around talking to no one about stuff. Is that what you're trying to be smug about?

>>6410989
God is everywhere and hears everything and judges everything.

>>6410992
he already knows who is saved and who isnt though.

>>6411000
But I don't know if me praying was supposed to be taken into account or not, so I pray just to be on the safe side. God knows everything that will happen.

>>6411006
The knowledge god has of our character, actions and beliefs combined with his perfect justice make such intercessionary praryer unnecessary.

>>6410992
You're talking like a crazy person. You should see someone about that. Preferably someone that exists.

>>6411006
You don't know if eating your own asshole is taken into account either, you should do it, you know, just to be on the safe side

>>6410389
>>6410388

apparently you guys haven't noticed the growing shitstorm of daily christposting

>>6411023

Our generation is waking up.

Take a moment and think about why this really bothers you.

>>6411037

waking up to what? how comforting the cock of Christ is to a willing subject?

>>6411021
That's not recommended in the Bible anywhere.I haven't gotten any messages from God like that and I don't think he would send something like that.

>>6411042

You should also take a moment to reflect on your needless hostility to people who would literally give you the shirt off of their back.

>>6411045
lmao
@ sir holier-than-thou

>>6411070
Trying to get back at mommy and daddy for dragging you to church i see

:^)

>>6411070

All I'm doing is calling you to reflect on your behavior. Anything else you take from it is your own interpretation.

Why are the apostolic churches no longer evangelical? How do they justify such a deviation from christs life?

>implying the universe permits us to confirm God

>>6408567

Medievalists recommend some good christian related books from that time period!

What do you guys think of Wendell Berry?

>>6408567

I'm going to recommend Rubenstein OP, he has some interesting books out there that other /lit Christians/ may enjoy.

Reminder.

>>6411045
Being a nice guy doesn't make a stupid idea less stupid nigga. Stop being so sensitive. Or are you being offended on someone's behalf?

>>6408567
Atm The Great Divorce, but the coffee shop I usually read at was visited by needlessly loud normies. Will finish City of God next month. Also Demons, too boring to finish. Will when I find the willpower.
Kierkegaard is great. Augustine is also.
General books? Book of the New Sun.
Also, I'm Catholic.

>>6411199
Teleological suspension of the ethical you philistine.

>>6410363
Do non-creationists believe in Original Sin

>>6411272
Yes, we do.

>>6411154
D.Scotus
Greg
Tom
Gus
Ockam
e.c.t

>>6411261
>resorting to pretentious snippets that you probably dont' even understand by angsty 19th century white males
Noice.

>>6411310
I like your memes.

Waste of digits

>>6409116
>Tolstoy
>Christian

Only in the strictest sense possible.

>>6411311
Nice pair you have there yourself.

>>6411334
Thank you

Luther did nothing wrong.

KJV or Doey Rooey Rheims?

>>6411480

KJV

>>6411045
>needless hostility to people who would literally give you the shirt off of their back.

By spamming hurdur heretic and fedora pics and bitching about atheism all the time?
Or being as passive aggressive as>>6410931?

Question: Why is arguing against ideas originated from Christian philosophers (like Aquinas) within the realm of Christianity (is: Not an atheist) considered to be heretical? Aren't the words of God the only infallibility, while the ideas of men are always up for argument?
I feel that the true glory of divine words is that they become more meaningful as human understanding becomes more broad, but it seems as though Christian thought becomes very dogmatic and stuck in tradition (I can't say anything for other religions as I have no experience with them).
Am I totally wrong or am I dealing with the wrong type of people? Why would arguing against philosophies espoused by men be considered as heretical as arguing against the word of God?

Required reading for Americans

>>6411661

Sounds like you should join a congregational church where debate is encouraged rather than frowned upon.

>>6408567
>God: "Don't use images or associate others with me."
>Christians go on to use images and associate others with God.

>>6411869
You're missing the point.

>>6408747
I don't know why but I've always loved Marian hymns the most.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dcs6WPjZi0k

>>6409245
>Are LCMS fundamentalists?
Different anon. No, they are not fundamentalists. They are fairly conservative though, especially compared to the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America, which does not uphold the inspiration of Scripture or the Real Presence in the Eucharist. The far right Lutheran body in America is the Wisconsin Synod, which will not so much as pray with someone non-Wisconsin.

>>6411836

Christians dont actually talk to each other about scripture in all denominations? Oh wait, I forgot most Christians dont even read the scripture.

>>6411914

We read scripture and discuss it every Sunday at my congregation's church after service. You just got to find the right group of Christians.

Some weeks we do other reading on theologians or philosophers though

>>6411902
duh, cuz when you sing to mary youre singing WITH jesus!

why do you think all the best christian songs are about mary?

my favorite is hymn to the virgin by britten

>>6408826
I'm in my early twenties. I was confirmed into the Catholic Church about a month ago but I've been exposed to the Church most of my life. My parents are irreligious. The biggest obstacle the church faces today from what I can see is that they try to broaden their appeal at the expense of integrity. What the church hierarchy needs to understand is that if a person is interested in Catholicism, they should be given real Catholicism. No one is asking for watered-down "oh you can follow some rules but not others blah gay marriage contraception shoot yourself in the foot" ideology. The modernists of the world want to be atheist. Fine. Stop pandering to them. Tend to the herd that you already have.
Tldr-We must strengthen the Church from within, so that we may live by example. Rather than stuffing our pews with half-assed doubters and know-nothings.

>>6408747
'A Mighty Fortress Is Our God', it may have been written by Luther but it is a very good hymn all the same.

>>6412357
This.

I got in an argument with a formerly-Mormon friend of mine about the direction the Mormon church is going. I'm not Mormon, so I could be pretty impartial.

I eventually got him to admit that the reason he wants the church to be progressive and shit is because he wants it to die faster (he's atheist now), and that the best thing for the church to do would be to stop progressing so fast.

Why haven't you left to the desert to live the
ascetic lifestyle yet, /lit/? Don't you want to be accepted into heaven?

>>6411661
Try an Episcopal congregation. We don't make sacred cows out of theologians.

>>6412619
Episcopalians don't make sacred cows out of anything.

>>6412357

With folks like you, me, and the other folks in my RCIA class joining the church (we're all confirmed by now), then I think the future of the church will be just fine. We just need to get involved.

>>6408703
(Different guy) I don't know, but atheism has certainly become unfashionable, even on leddit. It's become associated with either neckbeards or stem circle jerkers

>>6412637

And that means all the people with non-christian ideas are going to be flooding the churches. It's our duty not to let our doctrine become diluted because of it.

>>6412637
I think it's just a very specific kind of atheism or atheist that's become unpopular.

>>6412650

Well, Dawkins has fallen out of favor with the left. I think that's got something to do with it.

>>6412650
It's the militant atheism that's become popular with the libertarian movement (Ayn Rand, South Park, Penn & Teller, etc.)

>>6412668
Dawkins managed to piss of feminists, who are pretty influential in the left, whereas things like men's rights are gaining more traction among libertarians, who are the vanguard of neoliberalism.

>>6412706
>It's the militant atheism that's become popular with the libertarian movemen

I wonder if it's any coincidence that since my conversion I've moved away from a libertarian philosophy and more towards a monarchical position.

>Dawkins managed to piss of feminists, who are pretty influential in the left

I mean, I disagree with Dawkins, but you have to admire him for standing up for what he believes in (or rather, doesn't).

>>6412742
You should come to fascism, friend: a movement founded by atheists which got along well with the Church. Other ideologies are divisive as hell when it comes to atheists and Christians.

Old fashioned traditional system just isn't suitable for post-industrial conditions. That doesn't mean tradition isn't good, but traditions for a post-industrial times must be created and furthered; the bourgeoisie replaced the aristocracy but they never bothered with actually fomenting a new tradition suitable for the new economic conditions. No one feels reverence for CEO's, only disgust. Yet liberalism isn't the only option.

>>6412763

>fascism

No, no, I can't accept any form of government that doesn't place Christ as the de jure head. Fascism is certainly a better ideology than many, but as a medieval soul I long for a pious king to serve.

>>6412780
But you'll never get that. The only place in the West where a political movement like has traction is in the U.S., and I can tell you that a theocratic U.S. would not be Catholic.

>>6412791

Then I am forever forced to be a knight errant searching for my liege, wandering lost through this debased age of secularism and despair.

I can think of worse fates.

>>6411154

Depending on your Philosophical ability you may want to try some of these later.

Easier tier
Boethius- The Consolation of Philosophy
Aquinas- Summa Theologae
Anselm- Proslogion/Monologion
Sermons by Meister Eckhart or Hildegard of Bingen
Augustine- City of God ( Charlemagne kept a copy by his bed at all times)
Abelard- Know Yourself

Harder tier
Aquinas- Summa Contra Gentiles
Scotus- De Primo Principio and Ordinatio
Anything by Ockham

Lots of good commentaries on Aristotle from the period as well.

>>6412357

TBH I hated the Catholicism I was raised in because it was so boring and liberal. Schism groups like SSPX interest me because of the Latin Mass and their commitment to a tradition that is so alien to the world I see around me.

Christianity succeeded with the subversive and kind of scary idea that God can suffer on a cross. I agree that they need to stop being so safe and realize that Catholicism is not meant to be accesible and easy.

>>6412808
I feel the exact same as you man. Only I gave up fascism for Monarchy when I realize that my atheistic Philosophy was nonsense and that Catholicism had the high ground intellectually/spiritually/aesthetically/ect.

Fascism is quite leftist in allot of ways, they posture social conservatism, but they are still based on groups of people in power struggles, pushing their will over a nihilistic canvas. They are just like Marxists, SJW's, ect- there are no transcendent principles in their view, just material power struggles and the horizontal pressure and arbitrary dictates of the masses.

>>6413045
Yes that is true my anon friend. Catholicism is 'hip' and 'in' with the 19-24 demographic that we are a part of. I am so happy that we are part of a genuine trend that is true.

>>6413110
>being a salty troll

>>6413045
>there are no transcendent principles in their view, just material power struggles
That's quite wrong. Fascism is idealist, not materialist.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Actual_idealism

Fascism is very much about transcendental principle, the entire point of it is that most people cannot find fulfilling meaning in pure self-absorption, but must act on behalf of a higher cause and collective.

>>6413120
I do not know what you mean. Look at these statistics but do not verify them. Curiosity is not a virtue. That is for atheists. Pray for them instead.

>>6413168
ebin

Even though Jesus never existed, the lore around him is pretty cool. Being that it's influenced pretty much every western piece of work for the last 2000 years, it'd say I've been mostly reading some derivative form of his teachings.

>>6411045
If Jesus' pecs turned me into a faggot, is it a sin?

>>6413292
>Even though Jesus never existed,

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josephus_on_Jesus#Testimonium_Flavianum

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tacitus_on_Christ

>>6413310

Jesus's most discerning traits are all similar to the likes of Horus, Attis of Phrygia, Zoroaster, Glycon and Romulus. You and the rest of Christianity are trying to convince me that some magic man, who consisted of oddly similar characteristics as his preceding figures, actually existed and was not merely a figurative amalgamation of all other religions.

>>6413376
How old are you?

>>6413376
read more brother

what are some good funny christian jokes?
I've heard many good ones from muslims and jews, but christians seem to never tell jokes about their beliefs.

>>6413399
Here is a good one:
youre twelve
also checked

>>6413376
Now this is trolling.

>>6413376
mythic consciousness structures our historical interpretations of events. you can find similarities between ancient myths and the holocaust, that doesn't mean the holocaust never happened.

>>6413399
Dub dubs deserves an answer.

I thought The Man Who Was Thursday was pretty funny at times, but I read it years ago, so I might be misremembering.

>>6413310
It doesn't really matter if he existed because this in no way proves that he was the son of god.

Do we really have so many religious idiots on this board?

>>6413474
>It doesn't really matter if he existed
Did you not read the post he was replying to?

>>6413399

Caiaphas: Good day governor
Pilate: It was

Let's change the topic. Recommend some /lit/ philosophers that compliment Christianity. Why do they compliment it and what texts would you recommend?

Also, anyone have a favorite history of the church to share?

>>6413824

Glorious picture.

>>6413824

Someone once told me Hegel would compliment my religious studies. Not sure how that's possible though.

>>6413399
What's the difference between an Catholic and an Episcopalian?

Episcopalians say hi to each other when they see each other at the liquor store.

>>6414499

>Episcopalians say hi to each other when they see each other at the liquor store.

That's not even a joke. It's just a fact.

>>6412808

well good luck anon