/lit/ - Literature

IDK IF IT'S RELATED TO YOUR EXACT INTEREST BUT LUCIFER'S COURT IS QUITE GOOD. YOU SHOULD CHECK IT OUT.

I'M GOING TO LOOK INTO YOURS

Paradise Lost

>>6385580
Byron's "Cain" too if recommendations of this nature are part of what OP's looking for

>Implying there is absolute good or evil.

>>6385603
relativist shit

Reminder that Satan lost.

>>6385607
>>6385609
Reminder that demons are for the most part impartial and only "evil" because of cultural perspective. Also Satan was an okay dude.

>>6385609
Nice job at fulfilling OP's request for a list of dogma

>>6385626
go to /tg/ with your D&D bullshit

>>6385638
go to [x place I'm using to try to discredit you] with your [stretched strawman comparison meant to imply you're childish] bullshit

>>6385487
Faust

>>6385626
reminder that some people are able to say this with a straight face in real life

>>6385580
Milton's Satan is actually written as a hero and his being evil is somewhat nuanced and complex. Probably not what OP's looking for.

>>6385487
What exactly is meant by "absolute evil"?

>>6385609
This is just a list of beliefs, but #2 is untrue even going by the text. Eve did become "like God, knowing good and evil" and she didn't die as a result of eating the fruit. She died as a result of the "God" character getting scared and barring her from the tree of life

>Genesis 3:22 - And the LORD God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever."

>>6385682
stomping on puppies because the crunching sound under your foot is intriguing

>>6385662
If demons are real, anon, than they are more comparable to aliens than they are to villainous wraiths. Don't tell me you believe in a sky wizard.

>>6385840
He didn't start with the Greeks

Grendel - John Gardner

Speaking of evil, and since I didn't want to make another thread, what's up with the Egyptian magicians in the Book of Exodus? How can they do magic?

>>6385882
Because they believe.

>>6385882
Because Exodus was written at a time of henotheism

or demons, take your pic

I know I'm going to get shit for this, but Blood Meridian seems to fit the bill.

>>6385487

>Lucifer
>Evil

I thought this board was meant to be intelligent mane

>>6385882
They have some form of arcane knowledge, like proto-science, so they can do impressive stuff, but they are still no match for Moses and his godly stick, yo.

>>6385916
You must be new then

>>6385916
nah most people here pretend to be christians

>>6385916
this board is full of agnostics with boners for catholic scholasticism

>>6385609
Why would he revolt in the first place?

>>6386134
How odd. I practically just started on this board and I completely fit the type. Although, it's more resentment against my Catholic upbringing but respect for their beliefs and art.

>>6386369
If you think of creation myth as a form of picture-thinking,a representation of the human spirit in its beginning, then, for the self to know itself he has at first to create an 'otherness' [Good], as opposed to itself and the sensuous world [Evil]. This is the first step towards the final conciliation of the two [Christ], in which the universal Good will make itself actual in the physical world.

In other worlds, for God to know itself has at first to create an other, who at the end is the same as itself, just a different moment of it, using man as a medium.

>>6386443
Sounds like something that happened in my chinese cartoons.

>>6385487
PURGATORY UNLEASHED
NOW BURN THE FACE OF THE EARTH

女神転生

>>6386443
>worlds

*words, what the fuck.

>>6385609

I thought God gave us death as a gift because we're his favorite children.

Can't believe no ones mentioned moby dick yet. The chapter where he describes the ship sailing through the night while the crew slunk around like satans minions by the glow of fires from the rendering of the whale flesh made me feel like I was losing my mind.

>>6385672
I always loved Blake's comment.
"The reason Milton wrote in fetters when he wrote of Angels & God, and at liberty when of Devils & Hell, is because he was a true Poet and of the Devil's party without knowing it."

>>6386369
>Why would he revolt in the first place?
Because he was angry that God was absolute ruler of everything and that heaven was a totalitarian state (imagine living in a World in which your boss knows EVERYTHING about everything) then there is the fact that God created Jesus which is basically just another God but follows orders without question and then plans on creating humans to populate heaven.
Satan doesn't want any of this and it almost seems that 1/3 of all angels agree with him.
God foresaw all of this and did nothing just like how he literally saw Satan stalking through Eden before tempting Eve (which he knew would listen to Satan).
tltr: God isn't a good guy

>>6386134
Shoe fits.

>>6386369
>I will not serve

OP here.

By evil i mean it in the broadest sense, most of the good literature about the theme is ambiguos about the line between "good" and "evil". For example in under the sun of Satan the main character does a lot of "good" things but there is the constant doubt that these in reality aren't and he is being a pawn for evil and not a good man like everyone thinks.

I guess that a good idea to understand what I mean is the ambiguity of the figure of Satan,who in the Christian theology is the one who keeps things separated and thus denies any trascendence but at the sime time is necessary to life for it to exist.

>>6385609
>other religions are thw works of Satan

Fucking hell.
Christianity is terrifying

>>6385609
What actually happened:

>wicked Demiurge (who thinks he is the Highest God but is actually delusional and relatively low on the totem pole) creates false "paradise" in Eden to entrap his new creation (humanity) in a world without free will purely to satisfy his own pathetic desire for control
>Ophis (who you call Satan), Aeon and emanation of the true god Sophia, comes to Eden and convinces Eve of the true value of knowledge
>she and her boo eat from the Tree of Knowledge
>Demiurge throws a shitfit, creates scarcity, death, suffering, &c.
>humans go forth into earthly history
>eventually Sophia herself comes to Earth in the form of the Nazarene Yeshua to save humanity, but is met with only limited success
>she'll be back

>>6390125
Lel at silly Yahwists

>>6390125
Motherfuckers need to realize that Jesus and the Devil are on the same side, and it ain't Yahweh's

>>6388932
The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom.

>>6390167
Redpill thyself, the true LORD is nothing to fear:

>>6390125

The Dwarf by Pär Lagerkvist is a pretty rad book dawg

>>6390184
>she

>>6385882
A lot of the Old Testament was written under the assumption that other Gods exist, Yahweh being just one of them, central to scripture only because he happened to be the god of the Hebrews. The Egyptians tapped into the power of their own gods.

>>6390210
Anyone who thinks that God is a man clearly has no female friends

>>6390225
Anyone who thinks God isn't a man clearly has never read the Bible.

>>6390243
Bible is Demiurgist propaganda.

>>6390496

>>6386395

two yers ago it was just the opposite, /it/ was the smoking jacket parlor of militant atheism, it was actually a joke to white knight for christianity, but I did it anyway. Since, Goethe and Kierkegaard have made waves here and the Dawkins believers trickled baack to their basements.

>>6390243
You have never read the Bible, your conception of God is weak.

You are borderline degenerescent tbh
Speaking such fooliness in a church would get you kicked out; you are not a man of God.

>>6385487

Does anybody have some texts on being evil. Or even some defending "evil"?

Would be interesting reads.

>>6390496

What is this demiurgist thing. I have few questions for you.

Does Sophia care about humanity?
If she does care about humanity, why would she allow Yahweh to fuck with humanity?
Why would she have them removed from the garden, and not make a new more true garden for them?
Also forgetting the whole pain of childbirth thing inflicted by God, ooops, I mean Yahweh, why would she have to tempt or influence them, not simply wipe her hand and do all things her perfect agency?

Really, she's got nothing going for her that God doesn't already have in spades. Plus, its not like she's helping anyone or trying to better them, the knowledge of tree of good and even was a temptation not a boon because it came at a horrific price that she neither prevented nor, and here
s the cincher, ameliorated. Whn God demands, he pays. He asked for Isaac, Abraham gave, but was rewarded with his son and more for the giving. Job was stricken, and was then multiplied for his faith. Jonah was within the whale and then became the servant of the lord on earth. Samson was blinded and shaved, yet he was given what he wanted most in the world, righteous revenge.

"Sophia" gave them a handgrenade and pulled the pin. Didn't come back to sweep up the mushy bits either. A poor substitue for the real deal.

>Go home atheists.

Isn't there a massive gaping flaw in the idea of the fruit? The idea that ignorance makes you unable to commit evil, and that all evil is knowingly committed. As though evil people don't do things thinking it's right all the time.

>>6385487
Raziel best angel

>>6390843

thus the Christposter reveals himself for what he truly is

an angry, embittered slave to dogma

>>6390903
I'm a muslim

http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/concepts-god/

read.

>>6390843
I read the Bible every day. Are you my judge?

>>6390907
>muslim

>>6390917
Literally any kind of religion is already idolatry. Religious people do not believe in God.

>>6390913
Judge, Jury and Executioner

>>6390907

>god
>2015

>>6390881
>Does Sophia care about humanity?
If she does care about humanity, why would she allow Yahweh to fuck with humanity?

Does the god of Abraham care about humanity? If he does care about humanity, why would he allow Satan to fuck with humanity?

Anyway, Sophia's influence on Earth is limited by Demiurge (who she won't crush out of turn because free will and/or ineffable divine plan--soind familiar) keeping her at bay.

>>6390923
>>6390917

Please enlighten me anon, I'm sure your textbook knowledge of religion can deconstruct my years of study of theology and a lifetime of jihadism

:)

Religion is empiricism by essence

>>6390924
Liar.

>>6390932
I do not hold religion is so high regard as you presume. Religion cannot save anyone. Faith in Christ is the only path to salvation.

>>6390917
A tower is not a column, basic fucking architecture. And the leviticus passage refers to fashioned or carved stones, "remarkable" is just a loose translation. Not sure why you think a muslim should follow all the rules of leviticus though, do you?

>>6390947
>Towers
>Not pillars
>The Black Stone
>Not a "remarkable" stone "adored" by Muslims

>>6390944
I respect your point of view.

>>6390955
God bless you.

>>6390913
Is that Oliver Reed?

>>6385672
>2015
>people still say shit like this

>>6391050
Aye.

>>6391067
I'd know that dapper SOB anywhere

>>6391080
Cheers cunt.

>God
>He/she
It's 'xe', people. I mean, duhhh.

>>6391121
God is plural, you mean xes.

>>6391150
They/them is already gender neutral

>>6391251
Not this shit, again.

>>6385487
>absolute evil

The Coen brothers' No Country for Old Men movie

>>6391546
>Movie

>>6385910
If anyone give you shit for this then that's what they are

>>6391546
Oh thanks for pointing that out, I hadn't realized that the movie was a movie.

Master and Margarita

>>6385626
Also, the word "demon" is a corruption of the Greek term, "daimon" or "daemon," which translates to "guardian spirit." much akin to how the Devil (who is completely different from the angel, Satan, btw) is always depicted as a goatman since Christians made the image to villainize Pagans by taking the Hellinistic Pan and creating a character out of his image.

>>6390845
A Clockwork Orange

>>6391887
the Devil is different from satan?

>>6391976
Satan is an Angel under God's employ, as in currently, from what I remember. I haven't read the whole bible, but yeah, his job is basically to tempt humans to do bad things to test their faith in God and strength of character, not dissimilar to Willy Wonka's relationship with Mr. Slugworth.

The Devil is basically a BBEG made up by Christians to villainize pagans and witches. Old school witches may or may not have actually been devil worshippers, we are not sure. There is a lot of biased info.

Both figures are entirely different from Lucifer, the fallen angel, of course.

I've been reading this huge encyclopedia on witchcraft recently, it's brilliant.

>>6392034
Is devil really the appropriate title for deal makers, or is satan better?

>>6392055
Again, I'm not the authority on this with my base knowledge, I'm sure /tg/ would know better.

But, I'd say both. Satan would try to offer you something if you forsake the Abrahamic God (and have it turn out to be a trick or whatever), but they Devil would totally give you the legit deal. As long as you sell your soul and boil/eat a baby, that is.

Also, with the Devil, prepare to do some asskissing. I mean that in the utmost literal sense possilbe. Part of swearing your allegiance to the Devil, and becoming a witch, requires you to kiss his buttcheek or anus. Usually his anus.

This could be just propaganda made by the Christians to garner rancor from the general public, but you never know!

>>6386593
Tolkein's god perhaps.

>>6385487

The Screwtape Letters actually addresses the nature of evil.

All these shit posts about the history of christian mythology have nothing to do with it, and can be safely ignored. Read the work of actually theologians, and not the folktales of medieval European peasants.

>>6385609
>>6385609
>>6385626
>>6385627
>>6385689
>>6385609

Lucifer only wished for there to be an unknown. He didn't want there to be one God who rules all and everyone in heaven in their set perfect ranks and there perfect personalities with nothing to do except exist.

Think of how painful that would be. Really really think about everything being perfect. No success, no determination, no feats of emotional prowess. The very meaning of happiness would fade because how would you know why you are happy? What would there be worth being happy about? Nothing.

So he wanted to like God. He wanted to take an initiative. He wanted to have a pursuit. God took this personally, therefore Satan and Pals took on God himself. They were cast out by God and his pride.

If you want to talk about the failure, it's God. He's supposed to be perfect but he created something so perfect as his angles, and still they denied his programming, and then he creates something as pathetically small and weak and insignificant as humans and still....we deny his programming.

The serpent was old testament. The serpent was God's creation and was not influenced by Satan or Lucifer (who are two separate beings - Satan the deceiver and Lucifer the Fallen Light). A fucking snake deceived his programming.


But, I'm only talking in respects to the fictional stories and allegory. It's a book, they are tales, none of it is real.

>>6393532
>none of it is real.


They represent very real concepts of humanity though.

>>6393543
So does any written word by a human because it was created by a human and therefore represents human concepts.

>>6392505
Theologians don't know shit about God. Peasants do.

>>6390162
Underrated post

>>6393532
Lucifer is the name of the heavenly archangel who grew dissatisfied with gods reign; Satan is the name given to him after he rebelled. It's the same being (though arguably the same being as the serpent in Eden).

>>6385916
This board is occasionally raided with /pol/ like personalities wanting /iit/ to justify this prehistoric ideologies
*smokes cock*

>>6393555
The difference is the importance of it, we are not talking about some random YA book but THE myth of creation if we count in terms of importance. Is not known (and believed) to this day for nothing.

>>6393641
>Horse trainers don't know shit about training horses. Peasants do.

this is what you sound like.

>>6393532
pls, stop shit posting. your attempts a psuedo-theology are drivel.

>>6394084
Horse training is technical knowledge requiring practical skill and empirical observation. Spiritual revelation ultimately is not, even if practical skill and empirical observation can be relevant to it.

>>6392034
>Satan is an Angel under God's employ,

Actually, the Satan in the Book of Job (i.e. where you got this claim) shouldn't be translated as a proper noun the way it is. The Hebrew has it as "ha-satan," which would better be translated as "an adversary" or "the adversary." Could easily be a different being from the Satan in the NT.

>>6394332
*citation needed.

>>6394134
>psuedo-theology
>shit posting

We're talking about religion.

aka the largest shitpost of mankind's history.

>>6394394
>The Hebrew has it as "ha-satan," which would better be translated as "an adversary" or "the adversary."
Isn't it "The Accuser"?

>>6394394
>Could easily be a different being from the Satan in the NT.

Except the NT is the correct interpretation of the OT, as St. Paul implies:

>12 Therefore, since we have such a hope, we are very bold. 13 We are not like Moses, who would put a veil over his face to prevent the Israelites from seeing the end of what was passing away. 14 But their minds were made dull, for to this day the same veil remains when the old covenant is read. It has not been removed, because only in Christ is it taken away. 15 Even to this day when Moses is read, a veil covers their hearts. 16 But whenever anyone turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. 17 Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. 18 And we all, who with unveiled faces contemplate the Lord’s glory, are being transformed into his image with ever-increasing glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit.

>>6386395
Same

>>6396427
How is formal worship of the greatest good "shitposting"?

>>6394394
In the original interpretations satan was the adversary of man. He worked for God and it was his job to tempt men to sin.

>>6393641
>Theologians don't know shit about God. Peasants do.

Theologians themselves say as much, i.e. theologians themselves make the distinction between systematic theology (which prepares the mind to receive God) and mystical theology (which is where God is actually received).
It's true that systematic theologians can become so absorbed in their syllogisms that they neglect the real form / purpose of theology which is to know God and not just to reason about Him, but that is a degenerate case and not a condemnation of systematic theology itself, which is necessary for making important distinctions. Without systematic theology to provide people with clear definitions people would fall into idolatry very easily as they would mistake a false god and a false mysticism from the true God and the true mysticism.

>>6397855
St. Paul engages in both systematic and mystical theology in his epistles. So do the Gospels. The emphasis is on mystical theology because that is the higher / more important theology, but systematic theology is still required. For example, the biblical statement, "Hear, O Israel: the Lord thy God is One" is a statement that fits in a systematic theology which discusses the oneness of God. Without these definitions of Who God is people would fall into error easily, as I've said.

>>6397861
A great example to demonstrate the two kinds of theology is St. John Vianney, who was one of the greatest pastors of all time, but who nearly failed to become a priest because he wasn't academically shrewd enough for the exams required to become a priest, even though when it came to mysticism / intuitive knowledge of God he was far in advance of his peers.

>>6397870
And you can look at St. Thomas Aquinas as an example of a great systematic theologian in whom his pursuit of systematic theology did not impair the sanctity of his life. He even said that all of his theological works were as "straw" compared to the things God had revealed to him mystically, but that doesn't detract from the importance of his works as a guide for the Church in making necessary theological distinctions.

>>6397853
That's the Christian interpretation too. St. Francis Assisi called the demons "God's policemen", and I suppose therefore he thought of Satan as God's chief of police. I suppose the difference between your thought and the Christian thought is that you are imagining Satan as God's willing chief of police, and as being happy in the role; whereas in Christian thought Satan and his angels act as God's police incidentally, by going around accusing others out of their pride and malice they happen to serve the purpose of policemen, which is why God allows them to do it in the first place.

>>6394394
Popular Christian mythology (by which I mostly mean Paradise Lost) treats them as on continuous entity.

>>6397811
It can be translated either way. "an/the accuser" probably would be best in the context of the Book of Job

>>6387048
>God created Jesus which is basically just another God but follows orders without question and then plans on creating humans to populate heaven

Looks like somebody doesn't understand the Holy Trinity

>>6399909
Nobody understands the Holy Trinity

My own idea of evil is self, and it's full of conspiracies.

>>6400075
>aether

Are you that shitposter from /sci/ like five years ago?

>>6400087
That's me, I'm glad you remember, saves a lot of time explaining how I became king.

>>6400091
I don't remember you talking about becoming "king" back then

>>6400093
The fact you remember me just proves it was something along the lines of "high-class trolling" as you would have put it.

>>6399514

check out my depiction of the Devil, it's quite original.

>>6400097
It was trolling? I thought you were just schizophrenic or something

>>6394058
I think you mean A myth of creation, one that has no validity.

>>6393532
>Lucifer only wished for there to be an unknown.
This stupid figure of speech again.
>I only want to be your friend :^)
>You are only doing this because you are narcissitic and the devil as well :^(

>The very meaning of happiness would fade because how would you know why you are happy? What would there be worth being happy about?
The constant psychic orgasm.

>So he wanted to like God. He wanted to take an initiative. He wanted to have a pursuit. God took this personally, therefore Satan and Pals took on God himself. They were cast out by God and his pride.
M'succubus.

>If you want to talk about the failure, it's God. He's supposed to be perfect but he created something so perfect as his angles, and still they denied his programming, and then he creates something as pathetically small and weak and insignificant as humans and still....we deny his programming.
Because Christianity is incoherent bullshit.

>The serpent was old testament. The serpent was God's creation and was not influenced by Satan or Lucifer (who are two separate beings - Satan the deceiver and Lucifer the Fallen Light). A fucking snake deceived his programming.
That snake was God, pretending to be someone else.

>>6393952
The Holy Spirit died on the cross, begging that Jesus pardoned human kind, as they did not know what they were doing.

>>6385871
eh

>>6386134
Irish Catholic Agnostic here.

>>6400225
>Catholic
>Agnostic

I thought Catholics were either closet hardline atheists or just hated God

>>6400354
catholics are the zealous ones that love god, jesus, mary, and most saints. coming from a catholic family and school system

>>6385609
All of the rebel angels save Lucifer himself have the chance to repent. They aren't all going to the lake of fire for eternity, at least not necessarily.

>>6400507
>coming from a catholic family and school system

Sounds like an unbiased source

>>6401111
incredibly. Just from what i saw, everything<god, and jesus is god

>>6386443
Interesting, but I don't think that any culture has ever considered Good to be the "other"; the usual racket is that We (whoever We happen to be) are the good guys and this have God or the local equivalent on Our side, while They (again, who exactly They are isn't important) *are* the big Other, and thus aligned with whatever malignant spirits are relevant.

>Over 100 replies
>Only about 3 actual on-topic posts

Not even op, but why you guys gotta be like this

>>6385487
Try Isaac Singer's "Satan in Goray". Plus, "Paradise Lost" is mandatory.

; fearful and flashy
; Lucifer the light bringer

my depiction of the devil being related somewhat to energy more so than it was fire like most assumed although it's also associated with fire.

Try reading Shake Hands with the Devil if you want some real world shit, OP.

>>6385487
who is this demen?

>>6401227
You are getting ahead of things, I'm referring to something more primal and individual.

>>6402800
Pic related is probably Lucifer, given that its a Gustave Dore illustration

>>6402826
pls tell me she does porn

>>6402820
There's not much more primal than classic Us v Them

>>6402832
Pay attention, the myth of creation is about man's relation with God, the infinite, not with other humans. That is a different story altogether.

>>6402857
>;]

>>6386369
it was pride

i think satan either was so proud he believed he could win, or he was so proud he believed God wouldn't punish him

>>6400192
>myth
>validity

I don't even know where you're coming from.

>>6390961
>>6390955
>>6390944
>>6390932
>/lit/
trolls trolling trolls