/lit/ - Literature

>>6325321
The conflict is motivated by the complete exclusive control of Jerusalem.

All other considerations are meaningless in comparison and do not matter. Their differences are irreconcilable.

I just saved you countless hours reading about Doves and Hawks

>>6325321
I heard good things about "O jerusalem" but I haven't read it.

Israel: While the settlement-policy is fucked up and Netanyahu should have lost this term, is mostly motivated in self-preservation, a large portion of the political sector is secular AND even Palestinian, yes, the Israeli government has a shitton of Palestinians in it.

Palestine/Hamas: Unabashadely admits they want to genocide all the Jews, not only the Zionists or Israelis, all Jews, look up Hamas' charter. They are nothing but -Islamic- terrorists and follow Mohammed's lead as Mohammed has also ruthlessly murdered Jews.
Are all Palestinians terrorists? Obviously not, but Hamas is a terrorist organization that the Palestinians -voted- for, and the majority is in favor of their existence.

Imagine if the roles were reversed for a day.

>>6325416
>and the majority is in favor of their existence.
[citation needed]

>>6325434
They voted for them.
You're right, not in the West Bank and in Gaza, but there's no reason the other Palestinians would be against them.
I doubt the Palestinians that make up 25% of the Israeli population are mostly for Hamas either.

>>6325454
>>6325416
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_legislative_election,_2006
>Percentage 44.45%
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_the_Palestinian_territories#Age_structure
>0–14 years: 33.7%
>15–24 years: 21.7%
>25–54 years: 36.4%
>55–64 years: 3.8%
>65 years and over: 3.8%

>majority

>>6325488
And even then, that's still
>implying it wasn't rigged anyway

>>6325488
74 out of 132 members of their Parliament are from Hamas

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas

>In the January 2006 Palestinian parliamentary elections, Hamas won a decisive majority in the Palestinian Parliament,[42] defeating the PLO-affiliated Fatah party.

>>6325416
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas#Current_status_of_the_Charter

>>6325416
>Unabashadely admits they want to genocide all the Jews
Show me, Bill.

>>6325499
Political representative =/= those shooting up Synagogues in Europe

>>6325321

all of this guys work

>>6325416
>Hamas is a terrorist organization
According to larger opposing terrorist organizations.

>>6325498
>44.45% of voters were for Hamas
>~42.34% of Palestinians are under the voting age (slightly inaccurate number cos there are only stats for the 15-25 age group, but still)
>implying it wasn't rigged anyway

>>6325416
>taking other peoples land, violently kicking them out of their land, is motivated by self preservation

>the palestinians want to drive all the jews into the sea

>>6325535
Why would it be rigged?

>>6325544
You're an anti-semite, and I don't mean that mockingly. There are millions of Jews and Israeli's who oppose the Likkud government. Blame Right-Wing politics for Israel's crimes instead of posting derogatory caricatures and, like you folks always do, limp-wristed passive-aggressive responses.

>>6325570
*Israelis

>>6325547
Because jews love being a victim and have more than enough money to rig third world elections. I don't even understand how Palestinians have a president when they should have some sort of revolutionary military leader, that's the usual power figure when you're constantly fighting an open war. Why would you vote to decide who directs your missiles?
It's much easier to have a meritocracy when you only need the merit of being the best at killing the enemy. When you have a more malleable context you get to chose who you want to do waht.

>>6325547
So Israel can install a puppet to fire tin cans at them, so Israel can retaliate with an effective genocide, under the guise of "self-defense".

>>6325570
>he said nothing anti-semitic
>all this ad hom
Must be REALLY wanting those shekels, huh?

>>6325596
>>he said nothing anti-semitic

Do you see the pictures he constantly posts? And now you come back with the "sheckel" remark, implying I'm a Jew and the only reason someone would defend those rat kikes would be for money. Are you going to pretend you're not an anti-semite now? Do you folks realize how dumb you sound?

>>6325570
Not that guy and the polgraphics reveal he's a racist, but what he points out a factually correct simplification that people simply can't get over. Only Israel acts out measures of genocide- all Palestinian violence is reactive and, frankly, justified. Revolutionary Jews in Israel need to understand that and, indeed, there are many that do though they're the fringe. Limp-wristed Israeli liberal Jews that want to -say- they're -against- the Rightist government and its actions need to start putting their money where their mouth is and take some of the shared responsibility seriously. This is of course true of all persons in the imperialist nations, namely the USA.

>>6325579
>>6325596
>being this paranoid
Also: Israel is not genociding Palestinians re-read: >>6325416

You are either muslims or brain-washed by /pol/

>>6325622
>Limp-wristed Israeli liberal Jews

Where do you get this prognosis from? Liberal Israeli government nearly fulfilled a two state solution, but Palestine didn't take it. Palestine is not saintly.

>>6325622
What the fuck, there is no genocide happening, it's a fucking war, how are some 5000 deaths in 70 years of conflict a fucking genocide?

Palestinians need to stop supporting Hamas and other forms of terrorism for Israel to stop defending itself.

Only fucked up thing Israel does is the entire settlement shit.

>>6325635

1) on what fucking planet did two state almost happen, seriously, are you talking about the puppet regime known as the palestinian authority?

2) none of this land should belong to israel because it was all stolen

>>6325645

1) they blew up kids with missiles, stop burying your head in the sand

2) again, they are defending themselves on *stolen* land, while they drink *stolen* water

>>6325633
>that the Charter is "a piece of history and no longer relevant, but cannot be changed for internal reasons".[91] Hamas do not use the Charter on their website and prefer to use their election manifesto to put forth their agenda.[92][93] Pastor states that those who quote the charter rather than more recent Hamas statements may be using the Charter as an excuse to ignore Hamas
http://www.juancole.com/2014/08/committing-genocide-palestinians.html

>>6325633
I read the post, I didn't find the sources no matter how many times I checked. Also Israelis voted between the guy who said they had to keep an open war and the guy who said they have to keep an open war. No one is saying genocide since it's a land and not ethnic issue, that doesn't change that Israel wants to clean them out.

Recently the arab brotherhood was trying to cheat egypt out of some territory for the palestinians, while they wanted their land. At the same time Hezbollah isn't giving them any decent weapons either. All in all no one in power really likes palestinians.

>>6325662
>1) they blew up kids with missiles, stop burying your head in the sand
Because Hamas hides behind children because they know when Israel defends itself they will lose the PR war?
They literally hide in schools.
>b-because they're so densely populated!
Not even true, they delibirately hide with civilians to force Israel to cause collateral damage.

>2) again, they are defending themselves on *stolen* land, while they drink *stolen* water
>stolen land
The settlements?
Yes.
Israel itself?
Nope.

Reminder: 25% of Israel is Palestinian.
Israeli government is full of Palestinians.
Average lifespan for Palestinians has increased.
There is no genocide.

>>6325635
>>6325645
I hope you're not Israeli nationals because there's literally no excuse for being this blindly supportive otherwise.

>>6325691
You are such a retard, why even post in such threads if you're just gonna try to fallacy yourself out of a honest debate?

>>6325682
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Ethnic_Cleansing_of_Palestine

czech it out sometime, i'm not gonna deal w/ this dumb shit anymore, hf

>>6325682
>Because Hamas hides behind children
You're thinking of Israelis. When they're not picking the kids off from roof-tops they're using them as shields.

>>6325662
Have you literally never heard of the Camp David Summit?

>Stolen Land

Yeah, so is the US. Should we give every square mile back to the Indians? Conquest happens and borders change. There will never exist a time when Palestine's borders return to how they are. Should we restore the Austro-Hungarian Empire as well?

>>6325662
>1) they blew up kids with missiles, stop burying your head in the sand

http://observer.com/2015/03/how-the-ap-botched-its-investigation-of-civilian-deaths-in-the-israel-hamas-war/

>>6325691
And here you are again, trying to subtly call me a Jew to discredit what I'm saying because, as we've went over before, you're an anti-semite.

>>6325743
>And here you are again, trying to subtly call me a Jew
I did no such thing before and I didn't do so in the post I actually wrote, the one you quoted. There are a plethora of Jews that realistically criticize Israel, from the more mundane recognitions of its race-supremacist ideology and activities to its crony position under the global imperialist powers.

this should get the ball rolling

updated since I didn't include a book that covers the Gaza wars since 2008.

Look up Finkelstein
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NmjoCBBHec8

>>6325800
I like Finklestein a lot. The Holocaust Industry is a great look at the exploitation of history. Finklestein believes in the right of Israel to exist. People often react violently in discussion when those they're discussing it with reject that right. Finklestein's passion comes from the plight of the Palestinians, not a rejection of the Jews. Some folks may argue intent doesn't mater in such a discussion. I think it does.

>>6325820
Finkelstein's position should rightfully be the common man's position on the issue- he's done the right research and drawn the at least /acceptable/ conclusion that Israel needs to return to its internationally legal borders /yesterday/ and that people need to be held accountable for their violence against Palestinians. Instead he's either completely ignored or he's acknowledged but someone calls him a self-hating Jew. It's incredible that he continues being devoted to the truth after all this time- very admirable.

Prager to the rescue!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bTuTL8aCx6k

>>6325743
i mean, i honestly believe the nation state is obsolete at this point, but i actually do believe that large swathes of land should be given back to the indians, yeah

also individuals shouldn't own the means of production so it shouldn't really be an issue the way it is

>>6325743
>Yeah, so is the US. Should we give every square mile back to the Indians?
Why shouldn't the US give back every square mile?
>borders change.
You realize this an argument /against/ your position, right?

>>6325863
seriously, you're seriously posting prager uni videos

wow

i feel disappointed for everyone in this thread now tbh

>>6325901
>seriously
>prager
>ever
learn to have fun

bump-want fiction also

>>6325321
Pic related is pretty good imo.

There's nothing dumber than saying that the land "belongs" to the Muslims. By that you're admitting that Muslims violently conquered the land and imposed their backwards religion, customs, and laws on the (Christian and Jewish) inhabitants. It is Judeo-Christian land and nothing else. We may as well lease it to the Chinese if we're going to make excuses for why Muslims should have it.

>>6325321
Well, here we go again.

Introduction: Cleveland - A History of the Modern Middle East, to be read http://islamicblessings.com/upload/A-History-of-the-Modern-Middle-East.pdf there.
Another great introduction, at times hilarious to read is From Beirut to Jerusalem by Thomas Friedman. The second part (about 2-3hundred pages) deals with Israel.
Once you know the basics,
Rashid Khalidi - The Iron Cage (on why Palestinian resistance failed, and how the Palestinian leadership can be blamed for it)
Wendy Pearlman - Violence, nonviolence, and the Palestinian National Movement (only read the intifada chapter, which was very insightful)

I guess you could read Norman Finkelstein, but he's a bit too politically involved, and the one book I've read by him (beyond Chutzpah) was mostly just him bagging on Dershowitz, rather than an informative work on the conflict itself.

>>6327158

>Judeo-Christian

Please stop. Judaism is anti-Christian, stop trying this trick

>>6327189
Nice meme, my /pol/tard brother

>>6327209

>hurr-durr /pol/ pls go

Is this any different from the epic JIDF meme? Either address the point or fuck off.

The use of the 19th century term Judeo-Christian is one of the slimiest and most dishonest tricks pulled, both when you look at the treatment of Christians by the Israelis, and when you look at what their religion actually teaches about Christianity

>>6327223
You've clearly been watching way too many epic neo-nazi videos or spent too much time around the anti-semitic retards on this website if you think Christians are or ever were persecuted in Israel.

But please, send me a thousand links to your charts and videos of some Israeli making fun of Jesus. I've definitely never seen these before.

>>6325682
>Reminder: 25% of Israel is Palestinian.
Yeah, when it should be 100% if all those Europeans hadn't stolen their land

>>6327233

>Jesus was the bastard son of a Roman Soldier who is now boiling in excrement in hell

>We're not anti-Christian we swear!

>>6327238
Yeah I'm sure every single Jew believes that just as every Christian believes Jews should be lynched for killing Jesus. Back to /pol/ for you.

>>6325613
>Calls someone an antisemite
>Immediately calls Jews 'those rat kikes'

>>6325321
If you can read it: Stephan Grigat - Die Einsamkeit Israels

>>6327270
[antideutsche brofist intensifies]

http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/aw/d/074344969X/ref=pd_aw_sim_b_1?refRID=0Y6HVABEXQS5768P2SK1

http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/aw/d/0805211241/ref=pd_aw_sim_b_3?refRID=1K04CQTE9AT3ZJY3ATBT

http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/aw/d/1408809702/ref=pd_aw_sim_b_13?refRID=02MXE7DPRN9YD2NRRK2Z

http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/aw/d/1847394574/ref=pd_aw_fbt__b_img_2?refRID=0V06MEQGQQPV1G0100ZM

>>6325662
every country on this planet is built on stolen land

while that doesn't justify anything, just think about it

>>6327290
>antideutsche
these people are so funny. They are the most German phenomenon ever, more stereotypically German even than the guy pissing himself in front of the burning refugee home.

>>6327270
>Am Beginn des 21. Jahrhunderts ist die antizionistische Ideologie zu neuem Leben erwacht und weist weit über den Kreis linker Kleingruppen hinaus. Die Existenz von Antisemitismus in der globalen Linken ist heute evident
>Antizionismus=Antisemitismus
Antideutsche are the most antiintellectual train of thought I've ever encountered. In a certain manner they are the purest essence of Marxism, in how they will utterly reverse logic and reason in order to further their ideology.

>>6327258
God this. I want to punch whoever is behind the screen so hard
LIKE WHY THE FUCK WOULD YOU CALL SOMEONE AN ANTI SEMITE AND THEN PROCEED TO SAY SOMETHING ANTI SEMITIC ARE YOU GODDAMN FUCKING DUMB GOD FUCKING DAMN IT LIKE HOW CAN HE BE ANTI SEMITIC WHEN ALL HE'S SAYING IS THAT ZIONISTS OCCUPIED *ARABIC* (READ: ANOTHER SEMITIC GROUP)???

>>6327560
What exactly is so 'german' about them?
>>6327565
So wait, in criticizing the majority of people who call themselves marxist, they are behaving typically marxist? Sounds about right, but what is anti-intellectual about that?

>>6327619
>semites can't be anti-semitic
>hurr I don't know what words mean

>>6327799
>So wait, in criticizing the majority of people who call themselves marxist, they are behaving typically marxist? Sounds about right, but what is anti-intellectual about that?
They are Marxist in that they lie in order to advance their argument. They are conflating antisemitism and antizionism, when to any sane person these two are not the same. They then do this by redefining antisemitism in a manner that is radically different from the way it is used by ANYONE ELSE, so that you don't have to be racist in any way to qualify as an antisemite EXCEPT that you are opposed to the project of Zionism (like many jews and israelis are, for a variety of reasons).

They are extremely German in that from the horror of the shoah, they apply German thoroughness in interpreting EVERY EVENT IN THE UNIVERSE PURELY IN HOW IT RELATES TO THE SHOAH, FOREVER.

>>6327817
>when to any sane person these two are not the same
That is a great argument. Not.

And if putting different historical and actual events in relation to each other is 'german', then I, as an anti-german, am proud of being german int hat sense.

>>6327835
>anti-german
What's wrong with Hegel?

>>6327835
>That is a great argument. Not.
Well, I did explain it further down. To the Antigerman, you can treat everyone as a human being, completely fairly, you can devote your life to defending human rights and equality. However, if you think Palestinians should not be allowed to be expelled from their homes at will, you are an antisemite. If you think Israel should be held to the standards of international law, you are an antisemite. Does that make sense? No, it doesn't. It's a twisting of words.

>>6327843
That's not what it means, friend.
>>6327849
>anti-zionism
>literally the belief that there should not be a jewish state
Yeah, all you want is to investigate some house demolishions.

>>6327868
>>anti-zionism
>>literally the belief that there should not be a jewish state
>In the modern era, anti-Zionism is broadly defined as the opposition to the idea of an establishment of a Jewish state in Palestine, the opposition to some policies of Israel and its extension, or to the modern State of Israel as defined as A Jewish and Democratic State.
>or

>>6327878
Unless there is some nuance i am missing, how does that contradict what I said?

Goliath is pretty good at providing a Palestinian biased look at the conflict.

>>6327890
Tbh almost all books itt seem to do this, what's up with that?

>>6327887
a) if you criticize some policies of Israel, some will classify you as an antizionist.
b) if you think Israel should exist as a state, but should give equal rights to all its citizens regardless of race, and that the definition of a democratic state as 'Jewish' does not make sense if not all of its inhabitants are Jews, you will be classified as an antisemite by some.

read this: http://www.rense.com/general48/zntiz.htm

>>6325321

>>6327926
Well, a) seems pretty nonsensical to me, or at least way too vague.
b) is pretty loaded: all citizens of israel do enjoy equal rights, the arab inhabitants of the west bank are not citizens. but yes, demanding that israel take measures that erase the jewish essence of the state is pretty antisemitic. Unless you're a jew. Then it's just silly.

>>6325321
the finklemeister

>>6325877
>i actually do believe that large swathes of land
try telling that to the people who own the land. You can't turn back in the US, or Israel for that matter, because there are too many obstacles against it. Anyway, kicking people off their land to give it back to the Palestinians is just as unfair to Israelis especially since most people are apolitical and ignorant about the past. It will create a whole new set of injustices

>>6327945

I found this gem from a neo-nazi website.

>>6327911


You wouldn't say Frederick Douglas "was biased towards the blacks" would you?

Parsing out textual biases as a way to sift the "I'll read its" from the "I won't read its" is pretty lazy and pretty stupid.

>>6327238
>Either address the point or fuck off.

>look at the treatment of Christians by the Israelis
your example of this
>Jesus was the bastard son of a Roman Soldier who is now boiling in excrement in hell

you see what you did there? you're not addressing the point. you don't even list an example of israeli persecution of christians, but you greentext that jews allegedly say about a religious figure two thousand years ago. that is no an example of persecution faggot

>>6327209
It's not a meme it's the truth.

>>6325321
Palestine by Joe Sacco
Jerusalem by Guy Delisle

>>6327258
When I say "the reason someone would defend those rat kikes" I'm adopting your voice, not speaking for myself. I'm surprised you were able to misinterpret that. It's a mocking sentence of the worldview of the person I was responding to.

>>6327619
Calm down.

>>6328433
Solid proof the Holocaust could not possibly be what we have been told it was.

>>6329418
>Solid proof

Do you even know the difference between the functionalists and the intentionalists? Hilberg was in the former camp, and he wrote the definitive book on the genocide. Nothing about the Havaara Agreement is in disagreement with a functionalist view of the Holocaust. In fact, the Havaara Agreement doesn't even contradict an intentionalist view.