/lit/ - Literature

>>6242502
blind black transexual midgets in wheelchairs

>>6242525
On ice!

A guy on the subway yelling about fascism

Xi Jinping thought

It will mostly be a reaction to neoliberalism, which has gained tremendous ground since Reagan, even Scandinavian countries are moving toward it. It will be a frantic rush to try to salvage as many gains as possible from the 20th Century.

Like that chimpanzees on typewriters producing Shakespeare thing, except instead of chimpanzees it's hipsters and instead of typewriters it's Twitter and instead of Shakespeare it's leftist theory and praxis but instead of leftist theory or praxis they just produce uneducated sanctimony and banal pseudo-activism for bourgeois cunts before going back to watching TV

Increasing worker's organization and attempting to give them autonomy within the economic unit itself, maybe making it obligatory for the company to offer them shares. Finally dropping the pseudo proletariat attitude of including middle-class knowledge workers on its designs, arming themselves

OR

Just spend another century asking for more welfare, getting more gay rights instead and claiming victory

>>6242502
A whole lot of I told you sos
>>6242525
Umerrifat, pls go

Leftism is doomed unless they purge the SJW identity politics patrol.
It will never happen because WHO DO YOU THINK YOU ARE TELLING ME WHAT TO DO STRAIGHT WHITE CIS MAN UGHHHH I CANT

>>6242539
lel

>>6242577
>Leftism is doomed unless they purge the SJW identity politics patrol.

This.

We also need a New Left that is against welfare and charity, and for gun ownership.

>>6242577
someone please post the occupy wall street thing where trannies and lesbians ruined it by giving megaphones to mentally unbalanced narcissists and forbidding experienced white male rally organisers from tyrannising us all with their wangs

>>6242594
Is this for real? If so, please post it

If it is occupy wallsteet psuedo-intelectual "i dont want to play the game" "gimme stuff" leftism that will become the shape of leftism---- then im throwing in the towel as a leftist tbh

>>6242606
>>6242594

>>6242615
>I'm convinced that this is the reason why the left is so useless and fucked today

Topkek.

The Left failed the moment it couldn't create a serious and practical alternative to capitalism, which is why these identity politics whores exist, because the Left failed it's original goal.

What geographical reason will be the vanguard of leftist development?

>>6242640
We might start to see first world leftism but im not sure. Probably just africa or something tbh

Identity politics, the commidificantion of culture, neo liberalism.
The leftist today is the igor like helper to the capitalist doctor Frankenstein. YES DR. LET IN THE IMMIGRANTS, IT WOULD BE RACIST NOT TO LET THEM TAKE THE NATIVE WORKERS JOBS, WORKERS RIGHTS DONT MATTER DOCTOR.
WHATS THAT DOCTOR?
YOU MADE SUPERMAN INTO A AUTISTIC TRANS POC?
NOW THAT IS REAL PROGRESS!

>>6242640
Africa, but there'll need to be a new Sankara.

>>6242637
The adults are talking, American.

>>6242640
America del Sur

>>6242615
And you can totally see that after any of those (I imagine) "woman are raped every day!!" speeches there was a huge applause break.

I know what this dude is talking about so well. I've been accused of "mansplaining" for pointing out obvious mistakes on someone's worldview many, many times. I think that, ideally, the non-liberal Left SHOULD be an aggressive, exclusive space. It's how we refine ideas. We have to viciously point out errors and mistakes in other's theories and projects, because if we don't do it, the right and the liberals will. Instead, is has become kind of a hugbox where we just sit arround and applaud each other's "experience", the political equivalent of slam poetry.

It's not identity politics that is the problem, it's liberal identity politics.
Such form of resistance has to be a marxist one - marxist identity politics.

>>6242577
>Leftism is doomed unless they purge the SJW identity politics patrol.
Or educate/convert these middle of the road liberal-capitalists that make up these bloggers you fear so much.
"Purge" Pfff

>>6242592
>a New Left that is against welfare and charity
Or one that expands it till we're all taken care of. You have no idea what you're talking about. You just want to shoot people.

>>6242594
>...where trannies and lesbians ruined it by...
That's not what ruined OWS.

This is a nutzo thread of pretenders.

>>6242672
As someone with a lot of bottles in my room, I resent this caricature.

>>6242670
>Sankara
cheap third world copy of cold-era stalinists.
Booooring

>>6242693
Butterfly, you don't know anything. Why do you always post like you know things? I wish I could help you Butterfly but you are awful.

>>6242577
The thing is this isn't a problem of Leftism, at least not Marxism. Marxists are generally pretty clear that racism, sexism, etc., need to be combated and destroyed but that they are symptoms of class relations. Only Rightists identity Identity Politic as Left, even though it's decidedly Centrist at most.

>>6242672
I'm not American you stupid faggot.


Please show me, a succinct theory of political economy, that can replace capitalism, without falling in to famine, bloodshed on a massive scale,and political repression.

Protip: You can't.

>>6242693
>Or one that expands it till we're all taken care of

Liberals lel

>>6242685
identity politics is a capitalist idea and marx shat all over it

>>6242672
>no surface-to-air FIM-92 Stinger
Wow, rude.

>>6242693
>Or one that expands it till we're all taken care of.

How's that been working in the last 40 years, Butt?

And how does wealth redistribution solve the problem of economic hierarchism and labor appropriation?

And how are we going to expand the welfare and take care of the poor in one country if all that will lead to is capital flight and outsourcing to another country?

And I assume that with 1% of the population owning 50% of the wealth, it will be easy to counter all the propaganda they can produce, owning all the means of communication and so on, right? We just have to unify the remaining 99% under absolute consensus.

>>6242716
We're not looking for viable alternatives in the real world, this thread is solely a masturbatory exercise.

>>6242676
They had their chance and they broke the revisionist scale

>>6242693
Please go away

it's the end of history dude, leftism is done. now it's just a battle between the remaining rightists to decide how many rights fags and women will have, sad it had to end up that way but they were just smarter and stronger than the left. no point living stuck in the 20th century, dude.

>>6242743
The average Marxist then, in other words.

>>6242757
>no point living stuck in the 20th century

Exactly, and we're in the Chinese century now

>>6242685
I don't know what that means in the theoretical universe, but in practice, anti-capitalist, marxist identity politics tend to be just radicalized liberal politics, which is even worse because they will say stupid shit like "capitalism created patriarchy" and accuse you of mansplaining/whitesplaining if you disagree.

Let's just stop pretending, shall we? We don't have to be AGAINST identity politics, but when you have mainstream parties, CEOs and celebrities making this their cause célèbre, it seems that they got it covered. It should be our job to fill the void left by it. And that void is class politics, economy, and the Third World.

>>6242748
>Let us have your board
>/pol/ is too crowded

Not till you start making sense.

>>6242767
china and america are the binary star of capitalism

>>6242502
In 20 years?
Probably more identity politics and privilege theory but there'll also be a resurgence of the political right in academia mostly as a reaction to the bullshit that the left in academia has been spewing

>>6242720
I'm not in favor of maintaining capitalism, I'm in favor of converting its use to level the playing field, educating people to do it all without cash exchanges and then pulling out of circulation. That is *not* a liberals plan.

>>6242739
>How's that been working in the last 40 years
Hasn't happened.

>>6242716
Oh, there will be blood. Sad to say. It didn't have to be, and it will probably be too late.

>>6242829
>if you're a leftist you literally have to be part of the same movement as this person
>if there were a revolution right now you'd be morally obligated not to kill her for making you cringe

god fucking damnit

>>6242829
>That is *not* a liberals plan.

Fuckin' lol, that's modern liberalism to a T, but you clearly have no fucking idea what you're talking about and are making the babby's first politics mistake of equating liberalism with leftist politics.

Intersectionality and State Capitalism

>>6242829
Given the sovereign debt crisis and anaemic growth in western economies how exactly do you plan on expanding the welfare state?

>>6242838
>>if there were a revolution right now you'd be morally obligated not to kill her for making you cringe

but that's the best part of revolution, the terror afterwards where you get to execute all the people you didn't like as "enemies of the revolution"

>>6242829
You're in favor of a long-term plan against private property that simply forgets to take into account the resistance from its owners.

>>6242852
>Marxists are actually just closet psychopaths

Yup. Not a surprise there.

>>6242757
The end of history ended the second those planes hit the towers

>>6242860

>>6242829
>I'm not in favor of maintaining capitalism, I'm in favor of converting its use to level the playing field, educating people to do it all without cash exchanges and then pulling out of circulation. That is *not* a liberals plan.
Reformism is really very close to social liberalism, and Scandinavia took that pretty far, but capitalism reacted strongly to it and now they're moving back. You're never really going to get anywhere with that in your silly goals, all reformism ever does is get things like healthcare and welfare, it never gives the workers more of a consistent voice in their various enterprises, reformism will never, ever make a law that says workers have to have at least 50% say in all business decisions, for instance.

>>6242845
>State Capitalism

State Capitalism, and I'm saying State Capitalism like Lenin implemented, might actually be a step forward if we can make it the norm in North America and Europe.

>>6242757
>Thinking the right won

>>6242860
actually that was when history truly ended, permanently; there hasn't been any alternative to capitalism proposed, just people fighting over how to spend oil profits

UK communisation

>>6242879
LOL if you haven't become a fascist or converted to islam by now

>>6242879
>global capitalism stronger than ever
>socialist holdouts getting austeritied to death by supranational capitalist organizations
>third world rebels all pulled into the reactionary banner of religious extremism and away from anti-capitalism

face it bro, it's a wrap, history is over

>>6242876
State capitalism will not happen in the U.S. If that were remotely close, bailouts would involve nationalization.

>>6242879
It did, and it was a bloodbath.

>Bo Xilai escapes from prison an takes power
>Chongqing model implemented across all of China
>liberals and revisionists BTFO

>>6242901
Nothing seems remotely close except for more capitalism, yet here we are

>>6242539
If only Chairman Mao was here, he couldn't manage an economy to save his life, but he would have all these counter-revolutionaries put down.

>>6242914
He'd just be assassinated for being a class traitor.

>>6242921
plus he'd probably impregnate a bunch of those 12 year old olympic gymnasts

>>6242901
>State capitalism will not happen in the U.S. If that were remotely close, bailouts would involve nationalization.

Topkek. the US already is by all intents and purposes a state capitalist country, as is most of the West.

They just allow enough private enterprise to the extent that the economy doesn't collapse entirely like the USSR.

>>6242841
Oh a "modern liberal" ...Not a liberal. Not even a progressive liberal. Liberals want to maintain capital.

>>6242846
Debt is a spook.

>>6242855
It doesn't forget, it just didn't include that rather hard part.

>>6242874
That's all just progressivism. Yes, I know, there's extreme reluctance from the wealthy layered classes to do this.

>>6242928
God, he was such a magnificent specimen of a man...

毛主席最可爱~

>>6242640
pow

>>6242940
It annoys me so much that every time we have this argument you try to dodge our questions, and yet in the next thread you'll accuse us of being cunty radicals again, and will probably defend the welfare state again.

>>6242896
>third world rebels all pulled into the reactionary banner of religious extremism and away from anti-capitalism
Most of those guys currently deserve the disdain they get. They may be forced into a life of violence through lack of education and opportunities, but people don't join gangs like ISIS and Al-Qaeda without seriously believing that killing Shias will restore the Ummah to glory

>>6242940
>Debt is a spook.

deary me

>>6242958
>gangs like ISIS and Al-Qaeda without seriously believing that killing Shias will restore the Ummah to glory

Protip: Not even Bin Laden and Sayyid Qutb believed that.

>>6242972
Pro-tip: You don't know what you're talking about

>>6242502
1) 21st Century Socialism/Bolivarianism
2) >>6242539, or whatever the culminating Left ideology within China becomes, probably alongside a MZT/MLM revival
3) Zizekism (and Post-Zizekism)

The downward economic spiral and political disasters of America and Europe come to a head as the Big Bads of yesterday -- Lenin, Stalin, Mao, etc. but especially Chávez, Allende, and Castro -- will go through a pretty radical image rehabilitation in the West, sparking renewed interest of Russian, Chinese, and even Korean Revolutionary History. This rehabilitation will be a sober realist take, neither condemning nor overly praising any of these figures or experiments, but the counter-narrative will inspire discontent from the fact that the rampant cultural propaganda that we've inherited in the Western world will be exposed. This young generation will be more interested in the practical theories from before the New Left, recognizing the failure, flaccidity, and/or complicity of academia with neoliberal domination. The failure of Obama and the American Democrats to make a working reformist model and to challenge the atrocity of the World War Against the Middle-East will compound as the generation of children during the 9/11 Sentimentalism are full adults and realize they were had by imperialist powers using people's lives as prop. Identity Politics reaches a head and fades when African-Americans reclaim Black Power through the lens of Huey Newton and Malcolm X/Shabazz, following post-Obama America, as it becomes all too clear that no amount of reform ever has and ever will help them.

>>6242976
Whatever you say, Dr. Harris.

>>6242940
Since reformism never addresses control of production, it is functionally just progressivism with a different t-shirt. I know you're not a Marxist, but there is a reason Marxists emphasize ideology as something negative. I don't think ideology is negative, because it's actually beneficial for my concerns, but for leftism ideology hampers their goals.

>>6242977
China's about as socialist as medieval Venice. I hope to god they're not where the main left ideology comes from.

>>6242981
Professor Harris to you, you meme spouting bastard.

>>6242992
they're as socialist as they can be in the current conditions and they are still working to build communism, anyone who criticises the fundamentals of china's economic policy doesn't understand Marxism.

>>6242914
>implying Bo's imprisonment isn't part of Xi's Chinese Dream campaign, which is actually a counter-campaign to finally oust reform capitalism and its cronies from the Party, at which point Bo will be released and liberals and revisionists get BTFO

>>6242986
One of the problems with Marxists is that they actually think that their theory is scientific when it's just as ideological as capitalism is.

It's really ironic how they themselves fall for the trap that they accuse every single pleb influenced by hypercapitalistic consumerism of.

>>6243006
They're as capitalist as they can be (which in Marxism is a step toward socialism), according to Socialism: Utopian and Scientific. They are more capitalist than even Burgerland.

>>6242958
can we stop it with the liberal narrative that muslim extremists are all poor alienated people with out jobs,
Bin laden was from a fucking oil money family,
THAT NIGGER HAD OIL MONEY

>>6243006
Considering they've basically reversed all the gains won for the peasants during the civil war, and they're acting as imperialists towards the minority nationalities within their borders, while actively being one of the most irredentist countries of our time, I would say they're pretty god damn terrible socialists.

>>6243024
Science is hardly divorced from ideology, especially today. Technology is completely subordinated to the needs of ideology, and the topics of research in science are frequently subordinated to the needs of technology.

>>6242977
That's a very optimistic view. Minus your thoughts on identity politics, I hope all this comes true.

>>6243006
>they're as socialist as they can be in the current conditions and they are still working to build communism,

lel

For the first-world socialist, it's always "happening" somewhere else. Even if every evidence points to the contrary, they can just rationalise it by appealing to a mechanistic view of Marxism that allows for their inaction.

Just admit it bro, you'll have to work building a socialist vanguard on your soil (which I assume is U.S. or Europe) even if polite society sneers at you. You can't have both, the status of clean-cut intellectual and a clean conscience. This is your historical task. This and leading that vanguard to power and launching a global revolutionary war to rescue the rest of us.

>>6242992
The CCP isn't actually uniform and has a Left and Right spectrum as well. The Right is in power but there's social and political dissatisfaction with liberalism (even China's controlled liberalism) within the party and amongst the people. A shift is very possible, especially with the economic development they've achieved. You might even say it's all according to keikaku.

>>6243036
>Science is hardly divorced from ideology

I don't agree. Science might not be divorced from certain values and axioms, but you couldn't accuse a virologist of laboring in political delusions.

>>6243006
>he still thinks the chinks are communists

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_n5E7feJHw0

>>6243041
I'm not a Marxist, but I'm curious if there is any basis in Marx's theory for a vanguard party. I don't recall their being one, he seemed to think revolution would be a product of class consciousness rather than just the conscious of a party representing the class.

>>6242716
Why is blood a bad thing?
Those who die deserve death, assimilate or be destroyed; this is why i support USA, remove kebab. After kebab there will be more people to remove. in 20-40 years USA will be the 4th Reich and i will be proud of my country for once in my life.
Either that or USA education will rise and imminent communism will be irreversible. hopefully.
Or USA could keep being a shit hole corrupt autocracy controlled by a single ideology that is capitalism.

What's the difference between a serial killer psychopath with dominant ASPD and a capitalist?

~sincerely, a cultural elitist

>>6243048
I don't think you understand that ideology in Marxism isn't just someone's conscious politics. This person labors through ideology because their unconscious is immersed in it, their funding comes from it, and the topics they research within their field are a product of it.

>>6243036
Science being instrumental to the realization of ideological objectives is not the same thing as science being ideological.

>>6243051
Between capitalist and communist society there lies the period of the revolutionary transformation of the one into the other. Corresponding to this is also a political transition period in which the state can be nothing but the revolutionary dictatorship of the proletariat.—Critique of the Gotha Program (1875)

>>6243065
>I don't think you understand that ideology in Marxism isn't just someone's conscious politics.

It is if we are talking about classical Marxism.

If you want to discuss Zizek you could've said so.

>>6243045
I'm aware of this, but Xi is purging the party at the moment under the pretext of corruption investigations. So I'm skeptical that the left will take over anytime soon.

And that still doesn't excuse they're slow erosion of minority nationality culture/languages and migrating massive amounts of Han people into the minority territories to essentially colonize them. It's textbook imperialism.

>>6243038
IP are here and they're not going to "go away", since the material conditions of American society necessitate that. But it could be transformed into Revolutionary praxis if we can get someone like a Cornell West (or an organization like, I don't know, the CPUSA getting its shit together) can successfully pierce through liberal dogma in the AA community and show the goals of IP can't be obtained via IP. It's possible, probable even, but not guaranteed.

>>6243051
This is a concept mostly attributed to Lenin. In the Left it's often referred to as, pejoratively, as Blanquism. So no, it's not a traditional Marxian concept.

But then again, didn't the bourgeoise revolutions happen because a centralied minority seized power? And the 18th/19th century bourgeoise actually enjoyed some homogeny and cohesion among its members, unlike the global waged classes. I see no escape from Leninism.

unrelated: Holy shit the new captcha

>>6243068
That's socialism, but it's not synonymous with state capitalism, state capitalism is the last stage of capitalism prior to a revolution.

>>6243080
No no no, screw that. Don't bring identity politics in. I want these people *out* so we can read Polanyi and discuss new economics and social sciences developments without being interrupted.

>>6242950
O I am laffin. almost all Quebec politics is identity politics, the identity just happens to be Quebecois. If your number one issue is the language on signs and trying fir ANOTHER referendum, nothing will get. Nationalism will destroy the Quebec left every time. An NDP provincial party is their only chance.

>>6243081
>But then again, didn't the bourgeoise revolutions happen because a centralied minority seized power?
I wouldn't say that always happened, certainly wasn't the case in the American Revolution (although admittedly Britain was far more capitalist than pre-Revolution France).

The theories of comrade Jason Unruhe of course

>>6243080
There's too many different Marxist parties, and they will never reconcile, so we'll never have a united front.

Not to mention the governments police state is sprawling and we'd be hunted down like dogs. It's not militarily feasible. The military would probably take great joy in slaughtering some domestic threats for a change.

>>6243028
Only white people should be held accountable for their life choices, you Nazi.

It will follow the anti-philosophy of the Occupy movement, emphasizing practice over theory and direct-action over protest. It will denounce ideology as secondary to human activity, and, tied in with this, will favour organic bottom-up structures based on creativity as opposed to top-down mechanic structures based on rational systematisation

>>6243080
>an organization like, I don't know, the CPUSA getting its shit together

Aren't they 100% liberal now? Weren't they even planing to stop calling themselves communist

>>6243003
Didn't the French Revolution people try to make weeks 10 days long instead of 7 and make all the streets right angles etc. because this was the "reasonable" thing to do but turned out to be a disaster

>>6242977
I'm not sure how the US could be divided up according to Leninist nationality ideas, especially since you hope for the racial nationalism (which is of course, a synthetic nationalism). Inciting racial conflict would probably just bring Fascists to power, which would doom us all.

>>6243028
Bin laden was a lovely man, the western media told me so.

>>6243126
I don't think you can say that the US, initially with only a million or so more habitants than other liberal republics like the Dutch and Swiss ones, is really one of the major revolutions we talk about in Marxist theory

It didn't really result in any fundamental change and so on. But then again I don't really know much about the US revolution. I don't even know how popular the transition was at the time.

>>6243155
They're no longer Marxist-Leninist, their main ideology is now "scientific socialism"

>>6242502
It will slowly wither and die. China will abandon its pretense of being communist and officially join the capitalist world. Communism will only be remembered as that god-awful ideology which killed so many people.

>>6243168
It totally severed US ties with the prior economic system and aristocracy, it was the first state built on bourgeois rule (you had to own property and pay a poll tax just to vote, holding office was even harder). Although after the revolution, a lot landowners wanted to establish a new aristocracy, whereas others, especially merchants and financiers, opposed that; this tensions reached its summit with the Civil War.

>>6243161
I'm sure the French Revolution didn't collapse because they tried to change the calendar, anon

>>6242502
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post-left_anarchy

>>6243186
>you had to own property and pay a poll tax just to vote, holding office was even harder
Not saying this wasn't true in prior system, just to point out that this was very much built on rule by the bourgeoisie, it was nothing like Athens where manual laborers could vote and had their expenses to come to assembly paid for by the state.

I think transhumanism will be a big political ideology in 50 years

>>6243188
Yeah but Harris was implying being "too reasonable" can't be bad

Anyway what he defines as "reasonable" is just "whatever makes sense to me"

>>6243206
I don't because "hard" artificial intelligence is impossible

>>6243173
Unlikely, communism is still appealing to many Chinese. If you go to China today and spend time among the peasants they will lament the loss of Mao all the time, wishing he would come back and exterminate the current party leadership.

They'll keep up the pretense.

>>6243193
good one m8

>>6243218

thank you
trying to explain this irl is impossible

>>6243218
Transhumanism is more about immortalism and suffering abolitionism.

>>6243193
That has an attractive name but the more I read the more unbearably retarded it got

>>6243235
See I think it will be the opposite though. People will revive the idea of the human as an organic being. Transhumanism is way too Enlightenmenty, we need to go beyond it

Hopefully a turn away from the liberalism that's currently infected all minoritarian movements. Leftists can't ignore the fundamental reality of politics, that the friend-enemy polarity drives all perpetual struggle. 'No enemy' crap kills political force.

Liberalism seeks to quell tension. The radical should do their best to make the crisis that much more visible.

>>6243235
I can' imagine any worse hell then immortality.

>>6243222
>Unlikely, communism is still appealing to many Chinese. If you go to China today and spend time among the peasants they will lament the loss of Mao all the time, wishing he would come back and exterminate the current party leadership.
For some reason I'm having a hard time believing that...

Did you read it on revleft?

>>6242977
>Allende
>Big Bad

Really Mr. Pinochet? Really?

>>6242640
Southern Europe, as always.

>>6243256
You can't even imagine immortality, faggot.

>>6243242
>>6243235
Moreover, have you read that book Present Shock? One of the things he argues is that in the modern age we're too stuck in, what the Greeks called, chronos and no longer have any kairos. We need to revive a sense of Kairos (narrative) and that means acknowledging the inevitability of death and being accepting of it.

>>6242693
>Or one that expands it till we're all taken care of.

The welfare state is based on an internally oppressed immigrant workforce and an entire external machine of international violence and extraction.

Nice try liberal.

>>6243271
Pinochet prevented Chile from becoming a communist shithole. He should be praised.

>>6243283
>>6243242
>>6243235
Here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KpBQGaSSD9s

>>6243006

Fucking ridiculous. It's like if in medieval Europe there was some kind of "capitalist" political organization that practiced feudalism and suppressed any manifestations of capitalism.

>>6243261
Among the middle class communism isn't too popular, but its not like they have a choice.

With the market reforms China has ended a lot of welfare state benefits that supported the peasants, such as no more guaranteed state housing, and lots of peasants were tricked by government officials into selling their collectivized farms for almost nothing. Basically peasants have been exploited and lost most of what they gained from the communist revolution, while gaining nothing in compensation.

And this is based my experience in China, not from some forum.

>reminder that no left movement will be successful if it attacks and distances itself from successful revolutions of the past and the currently existing socialist states
>reminder that you should be praising Stalin and Mao and defending the DPRK

>>6243314
>Basically peasants have been exploited and lost most of what they gained from the communist revolution, while gaining nothing in compensation.
What exactly did the peasants gain during the revolution, apart from massive famines?

Thank god for Deng Xiaoping

Leftist theory still has too many holes that need to be patched up.

It resulted in dictatorships because it lacked any sort of concept of check and balances, limitation of powers, pluralism or tolerance even for others on the left wing, any way to recall those that supposedly represented you or contest them through elections, the party using the asymmetrical relationship between them and the workers to make whatever the party wanted what the workers wanted so there was no contradiction in crushing other worker independent movements. Their particular emphasis on the state resulted in them seeing the state as a “stand in” for the workers ensuring that they would never becoming the ruling class as no ruling class was dependent on the state as heavily as the Marxists were which is why wealthy landowners still retained some power after losing their political might and why the Sultan made the janissaries because you need a lot more then a title to have power. Socialism resulted in powerful states not workers and when said states fell apart power went to those who had it which was not the workers.

Praxis wise leftist theory is extremely weak compared to its liberal counterpart. They spend their time arguing with higher level liberals who unlike the leftists have the benefit of having others “fill in” their theories and to some extent it doesn't even matter if they are wrong. Take Singapore for example. It has a large, well run, well payed public sector that included nationalized industries. Those on the left don't care about learning about how it is organized or how they can tinker with its organizational template to produce different effects, they see right wing and their brain shuts off. Those on the right can get away with saying whatever they want about it because they have others who do the hard work of organizing it. This is why the leftist counterpart of corporation, the cooperative is so poorly developed and why such large gulfs develop in certain unions.

>>6243297
>no human rights abuses under allende
>more than 2000 political opponents murdered under pinochet
What a great guy.

>>6243320
There life expectancy doubled and they got better healthcare and education than they ever had before, I don't honestly think I've ever seen someone claim that Mao was unpopular with the peasants before. Most of them where massively in favour of the cultural revolution as well.

>>6243320
An actual safety net and welfare system, guaranteed housing, many minority rights.

And Deng's polices did nothing to benefit the peasants, even destroying their traditional way of life with pollution from the factories. They even semi-privatized the health care system.

>>6243339
>no human rights abuses under allende
He ruined the country and was bravely stopped before he could do any more damage.

Pinochet was brutal but drastic times call for drastic measures. You're getting all buttflustered because 2000 commies got killed but I'm sure you don't have any problem with the massive killings against "the enemy of the people" which occured in every single communist state.

>>6243340
>>6243351
Nice brainwashing.

>>6243354
in what way did he ruin the country

>>6243320
Look at him! Look at him and laugh!

>>6243283
Kairos is the event, the moment jettisoned from time, a point of possible atemporality pregnant with a multiplicity of potentials that is to be grasped.

Read Benjamin's essay on the concept of history.

Probably several revolutions in the third world leaving the imperialist first world to collapse and escort us into world socialism and eventually communism.

>>6243318
>reminder that you should be praising Stalin and Mao and defending the DPRK
Sounds agreeable!

>>6242502
More transgender CEOs

>>6243370
>Oh no! Evil Xiaoping ruined our properous worker's paradise!
Jesus Christ you commies are the most delusional category of people I know.

>>6243271
You realize they're "big bads" from the liberal, not objective, perspective, yes?

>>6243365
So I've been brainwashed because I don't buy the CCP's official party line and instead talked to some of said people?

Here's a challenge if you ever go to China, look at the dash in a taxi, you'll almost always seen a voluntarily placed portrait of Mao.

>>6243354
>I'm sure you don't have any problem with the massive killings against "the enemy of the people" which occured in every single communist state.
Not even remotely true in Allende's case.

>>6243261
>For some reason I'm having a hard time believing that...
Because you're a brainwashed Westerner.

>>6243387
You know peasants don't like growth and modernisation right?

>>6243369
read a history book

>>6243377
>Pls be tru

>>6243387
Yes, as a peasant the GDP affects my standards of living, oh wait, it just goes into the pockets of capitalists and corrupt government officials.

I wouldn't even have that much of a problem with the economic reforms if he hadn't also drastically shrank the welfare state

Not to mention the cultural genocide of the minority nationalities..

>>6243393
Yes, you've been brainwashed by talking to people who were themselves brainwashed before China opened to the West.

>>6243403
Well then fuck them.

>>6243155
They're revisionist Leninists.

>>6243397
Allende just didn't have the time to consolidate his power. Without Pinochet's intervention Chile would be another Cuba, and not the richest country in latin america like it is today.

>>6243399
Oh yes I've been fed bourgeois propaganda by the big bad western bourgeois capitalists.

I should read instead Mao's book of quotations for a real depiction of Chinese life under the great leap forward!

>>6243421
calm down Nixon

>>6243354
>>6243421

If Allende was doing such an apparently shitty job he would have been voted out during the next election. Allende got into power through completely legitimate means. Pinochet was just a butthurt rightist faggot who believed the ends justified his means. No fucking different from a Stalin or Hitler.

The left recognizes that there is a war going on and thinks that poetry, cooperatives, and stupid haircuts and plastic penises will dissolve it. It's a game, a system of images played with. When in reality becoming revolutionary is terrifying, a war without security facing an enemy that will relegate you to non-existence with varying degrees of violence.

I wish enough people reading Blake and dancing in the streets could change anything but the birth of the future immanent to the present is a painful struggle.

>>6243412
>Yes, as a peasant the GDP affects my standards of living, oh wait, it just goes into the pockets of capitalists and corrupt government officials.
Muh bourgeois boogeyman, for fuck's sake open an economics textbook, when gdp grows EVERYBODY gets richer. Why do you think that the "poor" in America live so much more luxuriously than the rich in China? Because capitalism benefits EVERYONE.

>Not to mention the cultural genocide of the minority nationalities..
Oh you've got to be kidding me. Communist Mao's China sought to destroy its 4000 year history and you're whining about an imaginary "cultural genocide"?

>>6243433
I'm not even american...

>>6243434
Allende was about to try to seize power. Hitler too was technically voted into office.

> Pinochet was just a butthurt rightist faggot who believed the ends justified his means. No fucking different from a Stalin or Hitler.
No, a better comparison would be to compare him to Franco (who also saved his country from communism)

>>6243406
aight bro lemme grab one off the shelf
where in the histories of herodotus will i find allende

>>6243432
We're not saying there weren't hardships, Mao's economic policies were retarded. But regardless Mao is still a thousand times more popular than Deng. Deng ran a better economy, that still didn't do anything to stop the people's love of Mao

Just know Mao is incredibly popular in China still, especially among the 56 minority ethnic groups because he actually protected them and their languages and cultures.

>>6242879
Although I don't agree that with the Fukuyama bullshit I do think the collapse of the USSR dealt the final blow to the modernist project, or at least to utopian universalist systems in the modernist mold of the French revolution. If the left has any chance of being renewed as a serious force I think it's through accepting this postmodern political paradigm, whatever that entails.

>>6243413
>Well then fuck them.

You know your original point was that peasants hated life under Mao, it's good to see you go from "poor peasants brutalised by Mao" to "fuck those peasant cunts" in like three posts, maybe do some research first next time.

Peasants loved Mao, it was the intellectuals in the cities who hated him.

>>6243432
>Oh yes I've been fed bourgeois propaganda by the big bad western bourgeois capitalists.
You have, yes.

>I should read instead Mao's book of quotations for a real depiction of Chinese life under the great leap forward!
Quotations wouldn't give you that info but you could read first hand accounts of peasant life via Mobo Gao, for example.

>all these people thinking liberal "leftism" = communism and socialism

>>6243456
dif guy
intellectuals>peasants
the most necessary precondition for socialism is the dismantling of the peasant as a social class and political force

>>6243449
All right, illiterate farmers who were fed chinese propaganda their whole lives still like mao. Fine.

>>6243456
Peasants are stupid. Sheep. They probably forgot about the famines already.

>>6243447
> Allende was about to try to seize power.
Do you have any proof to back that up or are you just going off of Pinochet's own justifications.

> Hitler too was technically voted into office.
No he wasn't.

I suppose Franco would be a better comparison to Pinochet. Another piece of shit that overthrew a legitimate democratically elected government.

>>6243439
>Muh bourgeois boogeyman, for fuck's sake open an economics textbook
>when gdp grows EVERYBODY gets richer
>Why do you think that the "poor" in America live so much more luxuriously than the rich in China?
>Because capitalism benefits EVERYONE.

>>6243447
>Allende was about to try to seize power.
And this "potential seizure" justified installing a military dictatorship.

>No, a better comparison would be to compare him to Franco (who also saved his country from communism)
Franco merely installed a different type of dictatorship with bad economic policies and ended up killing way more than Pinochet ever did.

>>6243439
>when gdp grows EVERYBODY gets richer

But if healthcare and other welfare systems are cut at the same time your quality of life goes down, and if you're a peasant massive economic development destroys your entire way of life.

>>6243464
>calling yourself left wing
>being in favor of market economies
>implying liberalism and leftism have anything to do with each other

>>6243439
Somehow that money doesn't trickle down to the nomads on the Mongolian steppes, or the people living in thatch huts on a misty mountain side. And China has a massive wealth disparity, majority of that money goes to government officials and capitalists.

That was mainly artifacts, this is the extermination of almost a hundred unique languages and cultures, and CCP is moving Han Chinese into minority areas to hasten their assimilation. The cultural revolution was bad, but Mao is still more popular among the people then Deng.

>>6243447
>Franco saved his country from communism
gr8 fucking b8 m7

>>6243439
>Why do you think that the "poor" in America live so much more luxuriously than the rich in China? Because capitalism benefits EVERYONE.

Only the persyns in imperialist countries benefit from imperialism.

>>6243478
>Do you have any proof to back that up or are you just going off of Pinochet's own justifications.
Chilean troops were being trained in Cuba. The soviet union were shipping weapons. Heck, the KGB even helped fund Allende's election campaign.

> Another piece of shit that overthrew a legitimate democratically elected government.
He saved Spain from becoming a Stalinian shithole. He is a hero.

>>6243449
>Mao's economic policies were retarded.
"Mao's" economic policies that turned China from battered and backwards semi-feudalist land into a unified semi-superpower with a population that had an increased lifespan by about 20 years?

>>6242760
who do you work for

>>6243504
stop falling for this blatant b8, guys.

>>6243473
There are very few illiterate people in China, the simplified character set has largely ended illiteracy.

And considering these are the people the PRC claims to represent the interests of, I think it's very telling that Xi and his cronies aren't very popular.

Mao did a lot of bad things but they view him as the liberator from centuries of imperialism, not to mention he was a great poet, and calligrapher.

At least Mao had principles, be they misguided as they were.

>>6243438
Ever seen that Star Trek episode, anon?

The one where they land in a planet that has been engaged in a 500-year virtual war with another planet? They're so afraid of destroying everything they have that the war is mostly virtual, so that way they can preserve their culture and continue the operations.

This is where the Left is. It thinks it can fight a system of production with hairy armpits, with combat jackets and shitty pop music.

It's a virtual, symbolic, passive resistance. They need to wake the fuck up.

>>6243504
>Chilean troops were being trained in Cuba. The soviet union were shipping weapons. Heck, the KGB even helped fund Allende's election campaign.
Okay, listen, I dislike Allende, but this sort of thing doesn't prove anything. Both sides of the Cold War tampered with politics all over the globe, and the USA tampered against democracy, it's not like accepting help from one or the other implicated you as planning to set yourself up as a tyrant.

>>6243518
any unified china could have done that, bro. In war and political economy, demographics come before organization.

>>6243528
>Mao
>great poet
ok you are legitimately brainwashed or a troll
I mean, think and say what you will about Mao's politics and revolutionary theory and whatever, but his poetry is inexcusably bad.

>>6243479
Says the guy living a cushy existence granted to him thanks to free market capitalism :^)
Feel free to buy a plane ticket to north korea

>>6243481
>And this "potential seizure" justified installing a military dictatorship.
Yes

>Franco merely installed a different type of dictatorship with bad economic policies and ended up killing way more than Pinochet ever did.
>bad economic policies
Why do commies ignore historical facts? The spanish economy grew a lot under Franco.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_miracle

>>6243482
>But if healthcare and other welfare systems are cut at the same time your quality of life goes down,
Absolutely not true. Quality of life has vastly increased since Xiaoping's reforms.

>and if you're a peasant massive economic development destroys your entire way of life.
Boo fucking hoo

>>6243491
>Somehow that money doesn't trickle down to the nomads on the Mongolian steppes, or the people living in thatch huts on a misty mountain side.
Mongolia is actually undergoing a capitalist boom as we're speaking.

> And China has a massive wealth disparity, majority of that money goes to government officials and capitalists.
Not true, most of the money goes to the people. Hundreds of millions of chinese people were uplifted from poverty since China's liberalization of its economy.

>That was mainly artifacts, this is the extermination of almost a hundred unique languages and cultures, and CCP is moving Han Chinese into minority areas to hasten their assimilation
Cultural genocide under Mao was far far worse.

>The cultural revolution was bad, but Mao is still more popular among the people then Deng.
Who cares? The average peasant is a moron.

>>6243493
Not b8. Had Franco not beaten the commies Spain would currently look like Albania.

>>6243496
Kek, yeah it's muh ebil imperialism. Funny how Japan and South Korea, the countries most influenced by american imperialism, are so much richer than countries who weren't affected.

>>6243518
His welfare system was phenomenal, but his management of the economy saw tens of millions starve.

He was a much better military strategist, philosopher, artist than he was an economist.

I'm just trying to be realistic.

>>6243531
Sure, but the good side was the western side. The good side won. Deal with it.

>>6243536
>any unified china could have done that, bro
Then why didn't it happen before the Communists seized control?

>>6243540
I don't feel qualified to judge if a Chinese poem is good, but I've never met someone who didn't say he was.

I was always more skeptical of his calligraphy, its totally illegible.

>>6243554
Are you serious? China was in a state of constant civil war.

>>6243541
>Why do commies ignore historical facts? The spanish economy grew a lot under Franco.
The Russia economy also grew a lot under Stalin.

>>6243541
>Funny how Japan and South Korea, the countries most influenced by american imperialism, are so much richer than countries who weren't affected

Countries that ally with imperialism are richer than those that resist, no fucking shit m8

>>6243561
The Russian economy grew under Stalin because he enslaved roughly 10% of the russian population and made them do forced labor.

I'd rather my country industrialize organically rather than through massive slavery, thank you very much.

>>6243560
yeah and that stopped after the Mao gained power

>>6243563
Then why not ally yourself with imperialism? That seems like a pretty smart move.

>>6243569
Because he killed all opposition.

>>6243542
>his management of the economy saw tens of millions starve.
Incorrect.
http://monthlyreview.org/commentary/did-mao-really-kill-millions-in-the-great-leap-forward/
http://www.amazon.com/Through-Glass-Darkly-American-Revolution/dp/1583671412/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1425859350&sr=8-1&keywords=through+a+glass+darkly+hinton

>>6243558
a huge cult of personality was built around mao, bruh. That means deifying his every work, no matter how shitty (like his poetry).

>>6243554
Because China was not unified before the end of the civil war, obviously.

>>6243114
>natinalism will destroy the left
every successful leftist movement ever has been nationalist

>>6243568
> enslaved roughly 10% of the russian population and made them do forced labor.

This has been disproved by economic books like "From Farm to Factory" which you can find here http://www.mediafire.com/view/j8uy6mx9fxfrpio/Farm_To_Factory.pdf

>>6243541
Chinese Inner Mongolian, not Mongolia the country. And I believe most of the industry there is mining, really glamorous high paying work.

To say that most of the money goes to the people you clearly have not seen the standards of living for the poor people, that's a bad joke at best.

And no it's not. Allow me to elaborate more clearly, the destroying the language and cultures pf people who language and customs share no relation with the Han. Under Mao artifacts were destroyed. Now they are facing the irreversible loss of mother tongue, culture and ancestral land.

>>6243583
dude the biggest workers movement wasn't under the comintern and it wasn't the eastern nat lib movements.
It was the Second International.

>>6243572
>Then why not ally yourself with imperialism

1. you surrender all sovereignty
2. not all countries can ally with it, some will just be totally exploited, south korea and japan are useful to the americans right now but may not be in the future

>>6243568
>slavery isn't organic

>>6242539
Modi is the best Anti-West potentate tbh.

>>6243595
literally a fascist

>>6243584
Yeah, I'm sure the mass graves were put there by bourgeois saboteurs to deceive the western public.

>>6243588
>To say that most of the money goes to the people you clearly have not seen the standards of living for the poor people, that's a bad joke at best.
Nigger, have you ever heard of statistics? GDP/capita in China has increased tenfold since Xiaoping's reforms.

>>6243588
> Now they are facing the irreversible loss of mother tongue, culture and ancestral land.
good. All that is solid melts into the air, one day all old cultures will hopefully join this disappearance

>>6243579
Yeah but modern people talk about his flaws, it's not really that taboo anymore.

It may be that young people were actually taught that was what good poetry looked like, so they don't even know.

I do know his writings on Communism and whatnot are very straightforward and efficiently written.

>>6243560
>>6243579
China wasn't always in civil war. Anyway, it's not like Mao caused the Chiang Kai-Shek to underestimated the communists and try to liquidate them after they'd already allied.

>>6243591
>1. you surrender all sovereignty
Absolutely not true. France and the UK are far more sovereign than, say, Poland and Hungary were under Soviet domination.

>2. not all countries can ally with it, some will just be totally exploited, south korea and japan are useful to the americans right now but may not be in the future
>exploited
There's that word again.

Why the fuck do you braindead marxists see "exploitation" everywhere? THERE IS NO EXPLOITATION FOR FUCK'S SAKE.

>>6243540
Mao was a fine poet. You sound buttflustered

>>6243354
>which occured in every single communist state
what about the one you precisely are discussing?

>>6243620
Like I already said, Chile didn't have the time to go full commie. It was prevented by Pinochet's coup.

>>6243604
Yes, because the GDP is reflective of how much quality of life has gone up, when the social safety nets have been lessened.

>>6243607
Well I guess I'm sad that you feel that way, but my I'm going to guess you're not a leftist? Leftists aren't usually pro-imperilalism

>>6242952
filters mate

>>6243439
>Muh bourgeois boogeyman, for fuck's sake open an economics textbook, when gdp grows EVERYBODY gets richer. Why do you think that the "poor" in America live so much more luxuriously than the rich in China? Because capitalism benefits EVERYONE.
You can't be for real

>>6243595
What? Modi is pretty free market.

>>6243628
>Yes, because the GDP is reflective of how much quality of life has gone up, when the social safety nets have been lessened.
It literally is.

And I can only imagine the dreadful quality of those "social safety nets" considering how dirt poor China was.

>>6243634
Disprove me then. In which countries are the poor best off?

>>6243616
>Absolutely not true. France and the UK are far more sovereign than, say, Poland and Hungary were

Because Britain and France are Imperialist states

>THERE IS NO EXPLOITATION

Can you explain why some of the poorest countries in the world are rich in oil or minerals?

>>6243638
You think American poor live better than Chinese rich?

You really have no idea what you're talking about do you?

>>6243639
>Because Britain and France are Imperialist states
What a shitty cop out.

>Can you explain why some of the poorest countries in the world are rich in oil or minerals?
Because of mismanagement.
A ressource-rich country which manages to develop solid institutions for free market capitalism will prosper. Take a look at Botswana for instance. Richest country in Africa.

>>6243568
I'd rather my country industrialize democratically rather than through coup d'etat, cultural repression and fascism, thank you very much.

>>6243645
>You think American poor live better than Chinese rich?
Perhaps not the rich, but the American poor definitely lives at least at the same level as the chinese middle class.

>You really have no idea what you're talking about do you?
I do. I'm not a brainwashed moron like you.

>>6243589
>biggest
>most successful
Very very different things

>>6243653
I agree. The problem is that a country cannot industralize in a socialist economy, as every attempt to implement socialism has proven. Industrializing under a military dictatorship is a more favorable outcome than massive starvations under a communist dictatorship.

>>6243663
>The problem is that a country cannot industralize in a socialist economy

>>6243668
...without resorting to massive slave labor.

>>6243609
Admittedly, his poetry is a small part of his total image. I mean, Marx wrote shitty poetry, too.
But everyone can agree marx was shitty at it, and it's why he never wrote it except as a way of wooing Jenny.
>>6243611
never at war, but never stable. the little statelets of the pre-PRC era weren't heavily concerned with internal matters, as they were usually preoccupied with designs on their regional rivals (who, mind you, had comparable enough strength to merit too great a degree of attention to them, one advantage the PRC has over old China is that its regional rivals aren't worth too much attention).

>>6243626
You are talking about things that didn't happen with a 100% certainty while ignoring things that did happen

>>6243652
>Take a look at Botswana for instance
The Botswana Democratic Party is a member of the Socialist International.

>>6243628
I'm not pro-imperialism, I'm just anti-you and whatever you like. Let the steamroller of modernity crush all the terrible communities that have come before it, leaving us with only one terrible community to contend with.

>>6243654
The Chinese rich are as rich as the American rich, and personally I would say the Chinese middle class quality of life is better. They live in much more cramped spaces than we do, but they eat a lot more food and it's pretty healthy too.

I don't know, I might just like how cozy and comfy it is.

And I wouldn't use the amount of money available for consumer goods as my judge of quality of life. It's definitely a simpler life, but some see that as a plus.

>>6243677
What things which did happen are you talking about?

>>6243682
Political pandering. Botswana is a capitalist country and has a relatively free market. (and a very free market if you compare it to other african countries)

>>6243660
The joke is, of course, that it's probably the biggest failure in the history of the left, as well as the biggest movement. That's the joke.
Look, you're obviously not familiar with these politics, and as such can only view them in a very external sense. If you're only able to see superficial victories, you're unable to situation them within the historical totality of the movement. That is to say: you can't see where an immediate victory (say, a military one) leads to later defeat (say, the popularisation of horrible politics) on a greater scale.

>>6243689
>I would say the Chinese middle class quality of life is better.
Jesus you can't possibly be this delusional. Can you?

Have you ever been to America?

>I don't know, I might just like how cozy and comfy it is.
Or you might be letting your ideology blind your common sense.

>And I wouldn't use the amount of money available for consumer goods as my judge of quality of life. It's definitely a simpler life, but some see that as a plus.
Nice rationalization.

>>6243698
What has the international done to change anything ever?

>>6243691
>Political pandering.
To who? In their manifesto that you can find on English online lacks the free market fundamentalism you posses gloating about how their new state owned companies will improve quality of life.

>>6242568
Don't you have a retarded, factually incorrect 3 page "manifesto" to be typing in some shitty cybergoth font or poor bropormeme album to be making?

>>6243710
Actions speak louder than words. Whatever they claim in their manifesto, the reality is that Botswana is a free market capitalist country.

>>6243028
>using literally one person as a counterexample

>>6243438
yeah but that idea became religious bomb shelter dogma

>>6243741
>Actions speak louder than words
I agree which is why I don't see them that way.

>>6242879

>>6243530

>>6242577
SJWs are fascists spontaneously generated within a leftist framework.

>>6243707
Pretty much ever socdem party in existence was in the second, bruh. Even with the second gone, its fetid corpses still litter the landscape.

>>6243896
Absolutely no idea of what you're trying to imply

>>6242577
yup

they're a cancer of the left

>>6243941
well It sure does suck being visually illiterate on a fucking imageboard

>>6243672
Good thing that never happened under Stalin

>>6242698
>Sankara
>cheap third world copy of cold-era stalinists
How stupid are you? Sankara was a progresssive revolutionary given the material and social conditions of Burkino Faso, and even if we admit that he was nothing more than a bourgeois-democratic revolutionary, remember that almost the entierity of the radical left, from Bonifacio to Sun Yat-sen, to Robespierre to Toussaint L'Ouverture, upholds their local progressive bourgeois revolutionaries.

>>6244729
>bonifacio
>radical left
yeah, no

>>6244750
I was referring to bourgeois revolutionaries, you reactionary shit.

>>6244761
And? There were others to left the Bonifacio. There were others to the left of Robespierre. So on, and so on, and so on.
look mtw-san, you're into great man theory, We get it. Unfortunately, us average folk prefer to pin our hopes on average folk, and you're obviously a cut above us. Our most advanced element, one might say!

>>6244818
Great mean theory!? I'm saying that the radical left has upheld as symbols the progressive bourgeois-democratic revolutionaries of past, simply because the establishment of capitalist relations (or at least industrial development) is a prerequisite as a foundation for socialism.

Also, what fucking political ideology doesn't uphold individuals as political icons?

>>6244863
Yeah, the radical left embodied by the guys people make statues out of. Great man theory, bruh.

>Also, what fucking political ideology doesn't uphold individuals as political icons?
communism

>>6244898

Oh my god. I'm just frankly astounded.
Upholding political icons as a form a symbolic representation of historical phenomina is fine insofar as the symbol doesn't undermine actual analysis of the social and material processes that forge these historical phenomina.
And, I would like to say, is that within political symbolism is emotional charge which connect more to the masses than petty-bourgeois intellectualism ever had.

Btw, asserting that communism doesn't have political icons is fucking absurd and delusional.

>>6244898
>communism doesn't uphold individuals as political icons

>Karl Marx
>Friedrich Engels
>Rosa Luxemburg
>Vladamir Lenin
>Leon Trotsky
>Joseph Stalin
>Che Guevara
>Thomas Sankara
>Mao tse-Tung
>Any revolutionary martyr, ever

You're a fucking idiot.

>>6244898
All those Lenins are cannons-in-becoming.

>>6244932
The symbolic Lenin misrepresents the historical phenomena, any symbolisation of great men do. Go read EH Carr and write a hundred analyses of how surplus value is sucked from your working day as penance.

>>6242546
> moving towards
we have had neolibs in power since 2003 and Sweden between 2006 and 2014
t: finland

>>6244941

>>6244932
Who are "The masses"?
>>6244941
who are those icons for
>>6244944
stealing that line

>>6244944
Alright, I'll concede that a symbolic representation can misrepresent a historical phenomena, but this doesn't mean that an image of revolutions and revolutionaries past can't inspire the revolutions and revolutionaries of today and tommorow, and neither does it excuse the rejection of bourgeois-democratic revolutionaries and their progressive gains.

Still though, rejecting progressive bourgeois revolutionaries because 'they could have been more left' is rediculous and imposes an ideological mindset detatched from the social conditions that give rise to bourgeois-democratic revolutions.

>>6242615
I wouldn't have thought the white yuppie dudes who participated in OWS would refer to fags as queers. that just seems off to me for some reason.

>>6245051
>Alright, I'll concede that a symbolic representation can misrepresent a historical phenomena, but this doesn't mean that an image of revolutions and revolutionaries past can't inspire the revolutions and revolutionaries of today and tommorow
first as tragedy, then as farce

I should hope it that the mindset is "detatched from the social conditions that give rise to bourgeois-democratic revolutions". Yuck, who wants another one of those?

>>6245051
>can't inspire
You lose me when you lost the withering critique of all previous social categories. Lies for workers reproduces the valorisation process within the party. We don't do it. The first critique is the self-critique. And we're well aware that the only thing democracy gives us is better terrain to fight on.

I don't remember Marx chastising the Chartists for trying btw.

>>6245072
I'm not saying arguing for "another" bourgeois-democratic revolution. I'm stating that it lacks proper analysis.

I would also like to add that the vestiges of parisitic semi-feudal relations still very much exist in much of the world today; especially in underdeveloped countries in Africa and Asia, and a bourgeois-democratic social revolution would be beneficial for the advancement of the goals of socialism, and the advancement of the people who live in these countries anyways.

>>6243050
The current trend of capitalism is just a stepping stone to communism. At least, that was Xiaopings reasoning.

>>6242592
Seriously kill yourself you reactionary agent provocateur piece of shit. Anybody who actually thinks SJW identity politics have any place in the left is either a retard, a right wing plant, or a fucking tranny lover themselves. It's pieces of shit like you that keep the 0.001% eating the rest of us for breakfast.

>>6245149
No he didn't.
Xiaoping's reasoning is that state-sponsered enterprises is equated with socialism, therefore China is socialist. This is blatant revisionism worse than Bernstein.

No, in place of class struggle, they assert the conservative ideal of "Harmonious Society."
In place of egalitarian internaternationalism, is national pragmatism. "What matters is if the cat catches the mouse"
In place of direct social ownership is an alliance between the state and corporate power.

Nothing about the Chinese ruling clique is anything remotely Marxist.

>>6245166
>In place of direct social ownership is an alliance between the state and corporate power.

Would you consider it a fascist state?

>>6245150
Did you really just say "tranny lover?"

Do you also align with segregation, the term "nigger lover", and banning gay marriage? Oh, and do women become raging bitches on their periods?

>>6245321
Yes, to a certain extent. I mean, they aren't nazis, but there are definite parallels between modern China and classical fascism.

The radical left is dead, it will probably take at least a century to reform

>>6245384
don't equate gay marriage to full citizenship for blacks, or even women's lib
gay people can get married, they just have to marry people in a way that benefits society and creates organic bonds

>>6245560
A lot of people think identity politics killed leftism, but it was actually bigotry within leftism that push marginalized groups into their own movements away from it.

>>6245569
just get to /d/ or /lgbt/, jack off, kill yourself
you fucking mental patient

>>6245569
http://www.theguardian.com/society/2013/mar/09/socialist-workers-party-rape-kangaroo-court

A lot of leftists virtually ignore the plight of people who are shit on by leftists. At least IWW addresses this issue
http://www.iww.org/projects/gec

>>6245569
Not at all, the revolution is more important than individual groups, we need to have proletarian solidarity and cooperate.

Grievances can be addressed post-revolution.

>>6245581
Nah, they can't. You aren't going to have solidarity if you're calling blacks niggers, gays faggots, women whores, and transpeople trannies. You need to fix that if you want solidarity.

>>6245582
Obviously you wouldn't do that, you treat everyone equally. Focusing on minority issues as your main issues just fosters reactionary thoughts among the majority.

Unfortunately throughout history the vanguard party is usually composed mainly of the majority enthic group.

>>6245569
Clearly you're not aware that identity politics has hijacked American Marxism. Becoming their focus to the point of obsession.

>>6245582
nobody does that anymore, except for the last group, because they are largely a condition created by the stresses and stimulants on display under late capitalism

you are looking to have a community of negro kings to be co-opted by the imperialists, a gang of opportunist mouthpieces that are probably far more disdainful of your affinity groups than any plain speaking workers, they just know to shut up to get paid

It always amuses me that American Maoists are so anti-white people, even though the Han Chinese are history's original culture imperialists.

>>6245594
Minority groups have made themselves main issues because of how much shit they've gotten in leftist groups.

>>6245599
No they haven't, identity politics have very little to do with Marxism. Of course, now some Marxist groups are coming around, but this is after American leftism was pretty much destroyed by alienating so many people that liberalism was only too happy to cuddle. If you make marginalized people feel like shit, they don't care about liberation joining you for liberation from capitalism, even if it is good for them long term. This is should be fucking obvious.

>>6245618
Do you know anything about the history of Marxism in the US? Or the platforms of the current communist parties (which are all revisionist, unfortunately)?

Black people played a very large role, especially in Maoist movements of the late 60s and 70s. Unfortunately black Marxists are heavily involved in black nationalism, which is just as much a farce as white nationalism and merely serves bourgeoisie interests to keep the proletariat divided.

>>6245576
Trots have always been rapists though

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gerry_Healy#Implosion_of_WRP