/lit/ - Literature

Bump because I'm going to hell

>>6232644
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AZKLgmYA_lA

watch all 4 parts

What part do you not understand in general?

>humans are born into sin
>continue to sin
>human sin is a debt that can never be repaid and we have no right to be forgiven
>God gives us Jesus to show us the way
>Jesus suffers in our place, and takes the burden of our sins so that we may be saved from our sin debt
>This was necessary because you don't just release someone from the biggest debt that has ever and can ever exist without making a point.
>now you can follow Jesus and be saved.
>don't fuck up your chance
>God loves you

>>6232644
He died, as to purge death from us. What's so complicated about that?

>>6232750
what a stupid fucking religion

>>6232736
How difficult would it be for a average 1MA to pull off this sort of style without it looking like shit.

>>6232784
You wont be saying that when you have a barbed devils cock rending your insides in hell.

>>6232644
My view of it is that if someone lives the way Jesus did, (s)he is freed from a vulnerability to death. That is to say, love God and concern yourself only with fulfillment of His will, in the manner instructed by the gospels, and death will cease to be meaningful. There are a lot of relevant comparisons in Laozi and Zhuangzi, I think, and also perhaps to the Epicurean view of life and death, except obviously the conception of virtue/the good is different in Christianity.

When Adam and Eve ate the fruit, they defied God's will and became subject to sin, which is similar (but by no means identical) to Buddhist suffering and which is basically what überorthodox Marxists claim will disappear when class conflicts are ultimately resolved in Communism. Everyone has original sin; everyone, prior to the Incarnation, had no way of losing it; and most people didn't even realize they were burdened by it.
Then, later, God sent Jesus, whose death made possible the forgiveness of sin. Simultaneously, God allowed the dead to enter heaven if they had been forgiven (either by faith alone or by faith and works, depending on whom you ask), rather than consigning all souls to hell.

>>6232736
Isn't this guy like one of the patron saints of GamerGate?

>>6232644
Human beings are naturally in a state of sin. Jesus' death was a single sacrifice which was an expiation for all the sins of the world. It atoned for all the sins of mankind and made redemption and life everlasting possible for human beings. Because God died, and came back from death, death lost its sting.

>>6232644
>what is the real significance of the death of Jesus? What did it change?
Absolutely nothing. His death has no significance.
His resurrection, now, that's different and is absolutely significant.

>>6232808
>adam and eve at the fruit

please go back to reading and do not post until you've done so

>>6232784
I agree, Protestantism is absolutely retarded.

>>6232850
What's your issue? That's the reason given in Genesis for original sin: the disobedience of God in the form of eating the fruit from the tree of knowledge of good & evil.

>>6232856
who was it that ate the fruit?

>>6232859
Eve, and then she convinced Adam to and he did as well. I'm not even the guy you're responding to, but what is the issue here?

>>6232859
Adam and Eve, Eve first, then she convinced Adam to.
I genuinely don't understand your objection.

>>6232644
"God" got pissed because these two hustling squatters got into his stash.So he yells and screams at them, throws them out of his house and they got to go back to hustling the streets.

But "God" feels infinitely lonely, so he keeps sending these small time pimps to tell them how bad they've been because he was the only one who got to use the good stuff, and they really done goofed.

Then he finally comes down off his high and starts feeling remorseful about throwing them out, so he cuts and it makes him feel better, and he decides they can come back to his house, but only if they make a ritual of telling him how bad they've been and how mercyful and good he is.

Now "God" is the sadist and Christ is the masochist side, and there's a third one too, but really it's just one, and he is completely batshit.

>>6232859
>please go back to reading and do not post until you've done so

>>6232750
this isnt all of christianity you dumb bastard

>>>/x/

>>6232750
This. Oversimplified maybe

On Christianity, Man as we find him is unable to properly know God in Man's own power, even though the knowledge of God is the condition of man's ultimate fulfilment. The wretchedness of the human condition relative to the good which seeks is our "fallen" state. The only hope, then, for the human project is divine intervention.

Since the human project is also God's project, it is reasonable to hope for such an intervention. But given human nature, for the sake of which God acts, that intervention takes a particular shape. Human nature, given our initial conditions, leads to death. Since our happiness is nothing other than the fulfilment of our nature, God cannot, if he wants to give us happiness in what we are, simply contravene that nature. On Christianity, God Incarnates and for our sake allows himself to be killed, somehow eliminating death as an option for us. This act is inseparable from the act of Resurrection, which is the positive side to freedom from death- we are freed from death to participate in a deathless life in full communion with God.

There are lots of theological understandings as to how the death of God for our sake eliminates death as an option for us. Here's how I understand it. The death of Christ at our hands is an unqualified disaster, because it involves, in a real sense, the killing of God- the destruction of an infinite good. Insofar as we are responsible for it, the murder of God is a failure of human nature so profound that even death pales. The death of God on the Cross, as a product of humanity, makes death itself redundant as the fulfilment of human nature, hence in the Cross, we are no longer due death by nature.

If we are no longer due death in the Cross, then the conferring eternal life upon us does not contravene our nature. This frees us to participate in the gift of God, which takes shape in the life of the Resurrected Christ. For Christ, as incarnate, allows human nature to attain literal, perfected union with God, and through sharing in that life, in being ordered in all things by that life, we ourselves are freed to participate in the union for which all human nature thirsts.

>>6232750

holy shit god loves me, i have seen the light

>>6232750

I understand it, I just find it incredibly stupid, not consistent with reality and immoral

>>6233981
But no one gives a fuck anon.

son todos putos

>>6233989

I thought not caring was a sin

>>6234002
Why care about a shitposter on an anonymus east asian puppet porn board?

>>6232644

This may help, anon.

>>6232750
Fucking Protestants

>>6232916
Interesting as fuck.

>>6234141

>>6232750
if god were truly all-loving he would give us a place in heaven no matter how much we 'sin'

>>6234149
Not really. All loving does not mean absolute mercy regardless of anything.

>>6234149
>He doesn't understand that love isn't just doing what someone wants to be done to them

>>6234153
>>6234155

>I will let these sinners go to hell
>therefore I am not exercising love towards them
>therefore I am not all-loving

>>6234160
Have you ever been in love, Anon?

>>6234172
yes
why do you ask?

>>6234160
Is exercising ultimate divine justice not love?

>>6234183
no
also infinite punishment for finite crimes is not justice

>>6234149
>if god were all-loving by how i define it, then ...

:^)

>>6234188
how the fuck would you define all-loving then

>>6234187
>if a hypothetical divine justice exists it is exactly what i want it to be

>>6234160
>i have forgiven the sins of these sinners and given them eternal life if they so choose
>i am not all-loving

>>6234176
Christian love df= knowing, wanting, and doing what's best for someone.
God knows and wants what's best for us. He has communicated to us what He wants us to do. He knows that following His will is what's best for us. If we don't reciprocate His love, what's best for us is to learn what life outside of His love is like. This life can only be experienced in Hell.

>>6234194
>>6234198

there is no point arguing with you deluded people
I just wish you retained consciousness after you died for a while so you experience the immense disappointment when you realise that there is no afterlife

>>6234187
>rejecting the eternal living god
>finite crime

>>6234206
>people who don't agree with me are deluded

I wish we meet in Haven to discuss literature.

>>6234221
>people who don't agree with me are deluded
no just people who believe in personal and/or interventionist god(s)

>>6234206
>there is no point arguing with you deluded people

the thing is your idea of christianity is entirely wrong. you haven't read a thing about what you're talking about and you're assuming your poor interpretation of second-hand information is right solely because you believe it

your idea of sin is wrong. your idea of all-loving is wrong. your idea of god is wrong. your idea of everything to do with christianity is wrong, and yet we are 'deluded' when we tell you the details of a subject you have no idea about and we do

not sure /lit/ is the right board for you

>>6234160
Arminians believe God's love includes the option for the beloved to reject Him.

>>6234226
so why not say that to begin with instead of demonstrating how little you know about christianity and trying to point out contradictions that aren't actually present with your poor definition/understanding of the subject?

>>6234237
good for them

>>6232644
>Since /lit/ is almost /christianity/

Not seeing it.

>>6234242
just the americans
that's why /lit/ is only good when the americans are at work/class/school etc. and the Europeans are home

>>6234240
>Christianity
Speak for yourself you filthy Protestant.

>>6234248
Funny, I'm am american. You may be right, I'm not on /lit/ often.

>>6234248
I'm a European Catholic, been posting for 3 hours now, also enjoying Have a Nice Life, such great albums.

>>6234257
>I'm am

Good Lord. I apologize.

>>6234255
get out of here apostate

>>6234263

Apology not accepted.

>>6234248
Yeah because teenage marxists are so much better

>>6234260
when I say Europe I clearly mean Germany, the UK, Scandinavia, Switzerland, Finland, Belgium and the Netherlands

>>6234269
blow it out your ass europoor

>>6234274
So you don't mean Europe, but just the parts that agree with you?

>>6234260
Deathconsciousness is great, I haven't listened to the newer one enough to have a developed opinion of it.
They got started at my university, which is pretty cool.

>>6234274
>germany
A nation of eternally butthurt furfags

>UK
pure autism

>Scandinavia
Somalian colony

>Switzerland
Maybe has 4 people on all 4chan

>Finland
kek

>Belgium, Netherlands
Possibly

>>6234280
i mean the parts which aren't shitholes
funny that the most religious countries are often the worst

>>6234274
>the UK
I thought UKers didn't even consider themselves European.

>>6234291
smart people do

>>6234286
Which parts of europe are shitholes?

>>6234284
I was lisening to the 2nd album for the first time tonight, it's good, but the first one was much better.

>>6234248
Amerishits are protestant trash, not noble catholics like just continentals. Stay revisionist. I bet you are a self-hating american.

>>6234302
He's just a retard who thinks that the secular countries (also the ones with massive immigrant problems and terrorism) are somehow better than places like Spain and Ireland. Average atheist.

>>6234302
The ones that are probably gonna be white even in 2050.

>>6234302
all of eastern Europe, Italy, the Baltics, rural Spain, rural France and rural Portugal, Albania, Slovenia, Slovakia, Croatia, Kosovo, Cyprus, Turkey, Greece, Serbia, Bosnia and Herzegovinia etc.

>>6234310
American here, I'm Catholic, not all of us are Baptist scum

>>6234318
>>6234312
>believing the ukip propaganda

>>6234302
The east and parts of the south.

>>6234319
Half of those aren't even shitholes by rich standards.

>>6234329
what does 'by rich standards' even mean

>>6234331
Germany and Scandinavia.

>>6234335
Germany is the richest nation in Europe

>>6234340
I know.

>>6232644
In olden Jewish times the only way to repent for sins or to be forgiven in any great sense was to make a sacrifice like a sacrificial lamb, now God sees humanity as one big black hole of sin and sends his son to be sacrificed (lamb of God) to atone for humanities sins

>>6234359
fun fact the term 'scapegoat' comes from Abraham's sacrifice of a goat instead of Isaac

Theology student here :^)

>human life is suffering
>why does God just ignore our suffering?
>sends himself down to earth to experience raw human suffering himself to make a point that he wouldn't save himself either
>free will etc

>>6234372
That was fun!

:D

>>6234383
Will you become a theology prof when you're finished? What other work would a theology student do?

>>6234372
But Abraham sacrifices a ram. 'Scapegoat' is from the translation history of Leviticus.

>>6234407
fuck off you pedantic git

>>6234383
You just watched some Zizek video, kiddo.

Anyway you're right imo

>>6234391
work in a church ofc? lmao

>>6234415
good contribution

>>6234419
no bully

>>6234418
>>6234391
Theology HS teacher <:3c

>>6232644

>>6234429
that's a turtle not a frog wtf

>>6232644

And the second volume of this

>>6234441
I have posting that pic with that file name for weeks and nobody else has noticed apart from you.

Well done anon :^)

>>6234445
thanks friend :3

>>6234312
Danish guy here. Most atheist country on earth.

We don't have massive immigrant problems. At all. We also don't have any real terrorism (Yeah, one guy killed 2 people a few weeks ago -- that's the extend of it...).

All the "nordic countries invaded by hordes of barbarians" shit that you hear on the internet is utter bullshit.

>>6232644
A guy showed up an hijacked Judaism again. More people argued about him for the past 2000 years than most other people saying they're the anointed one. The next generation of Twilight/50 Shades fan fiction might beat it in numbers, but it might just be another Beatles. We'll see.

>>6234454
THIS 100 TIMES THIS

>>6232750
How can we be born into sin? What has a newborn child done to warrant this?

Jesus suffers in our place, and takes the burden of our sins so that we may be saved from our sin debt
>Thomas Paine pointed out, you may if you wish take on a another man's debt, or even to take his place in prison. That would be self-sacrificing. But you may not assume his actual crimes as if they were your own; for one thing you did not commit them and might have died rather than do so; for another this impossible action would rob him of individual responsibility.

Is vicarious redemption immoral?

>>6232750
Since God knows the course of all human lives, why did he preordain the fall in the first place knowing that there would exist people who would end up not being saved?

why did he need to send his own son to die to absolve humans of sin, couldn't he have done anything else or hell even nothing at all? he's god damn omnipotent. sacrificing his own son, even if temporarily, seems pointless.

>>6235298
>How can we be born into sin? What has a newborn child done to warrant this?
The same way that a child born to alcoholic parents will suffer his/her whole life for their choices.

>Is vicarious redemption immoral?
Yes. The Protestant legalistic conception of salvation is utterly retarded. It comes form pagans (who were very accustomed to blood sacrifice as daily part of spiritual life) reinterpreting the Christian concept of salvation in baser, more mechanical terms.

>>6235298

You can't be born into guilt for active evil, but it can be born with a nature too weak to obtain eternal life on its own, and too weak to properly love the good. In this way, even a baby can be doomed to death or final ruin, unless something or someone intervenes.

>is vicarious redemption immoral?

Depends what you mean by "vicarious redemption." there's a lot of models as to how atonement works on Christianity. I think Paine is correct when he points out the absurdity, and I think it is rooted in the interchangeable nature of money (i.e., one man's money is by the nature of money as good as another's).

But we don't necessarily need the common "debt" imagery to bear too much theological weight in its details. The fundamental reason why such an "exchange" of punishments are immoral is that punishment applies to the individual, and qua individual the innocent and the guilty are not the same. But we need not say that the death of Christ atones for the wages of sin in terms of a substitution as an individual.

The death of Christ may have a categorical effect, undermining the very grounds for punishment in the first place. Here's how this might work. I think that punishment in its punitive aspect finds its ground as a "foreshadowing" of the ultimate ruin of the human being that is death. Death is a privation of the goods proper to human beings, to which we are naturally due because we are not, by nature, fully self-sustaining. Death is an aspect of the proper operation of human nature, which God cannot simply ignore if he wants to redeem human nature itself. The murder of God, however, is a deeper privation of human nature than even death. Hence, to be a murderer of God is to suffer a worse fate than death itself. To suffer death in addition to murdering God would be unjust, so death and damnation (the second death) are both rendered redundant by the death of Christ for us.

On the latter picture, it's not obvious that Paine's objection applies. God on the cross does not literally die our individual death, rather, his death presents us with an alternative to the individual failure that is damnation. When we choose to be complicit in the death of Christ, by acknowledging what God has done for us, we are both made his murderers and his beneficiaries. If we reject failure in Christ, we are doomed to failure in ourselves (because it is impossible to attain the unqualified good on our own), and the last ruin of that failure is what the Christians principally mean by damnation.

>>6235424
This post makes zero sense.

>>6232736
lol, I like this guy.

>>6232750
>>6233847

OP here. You might not catch this because of the time difference. These posts were enlightening, but the doubt that arises is, what happened to people before the death of Christ? Did everyone just go to Hell?

>>6234312

I am actually Spanish and I recieved no religious education, and I don't think my country is a particularly religious one... not on a social level at least. I always hear foreigners talk about how Spain is religious and it confuses me