/lit/ - Literature

>>619223

Nothing more true has ever been picturized

Screw the haters, I liked FfC. Just because it didn't had barely any Jon and no Dany or Tyrion doesn't make it bad. In fact, I liked it precisely because it forced GRRM to write one thousand pages that didn't involve his pet characters (except Jaime) in any way.

I read the first book, heard that it just got more depressing, and stopped reading. The real world is plenty grim and futile, thank you very much.

I think that after I read the Dune serise I'm going to have to give these a spin.

>>619309

faggot pussy

>>619309
QFT

>>619299

I really liked AFFC too. Though I'm very excited for ADWD now.

>>619309
I didn't find any of the books remotely depressing. I think you're a bit sensitive, wee lad.

I like fancy adventures to distant lands with wacky side kicks and talking animals, would this be a series for me?

>>619337
No.

>>619337
Totally. You will love these books.

any publication date set for DwD?

>>619309
>exclusively escapist reader

>pic related

>>619383
yeah, NEVER

>>619299
AFfC was impressive in that it was one thousand pages where pretty much nothing happened.

Let's see, you have Cersei going to jail and Arya going blind and Envoys of the Greyjoys and Martells sent to Daenerys. That's it. In one thousand pages.

In stark contrast to the other books where major plot events and twists occurred every other chapter.

>>619388
isn't all fantasy considered escapist?

>>619401
Brienne died too, you jerk.

>>619401

>Stark

Intentional or not, that made me laugh a little. Though I really wish I hadn't moused over those spoilers before remembering that I haven't caught up yet.

Something in me doesn't want to start on this series until it's completed, so I can go at it without waiting.

However, that same something tells me if I do that, I am going to be waiting a looooong time.

Are these worth the time it will take to read them? Because I already have about 10 books on my to-read list.

>>619763

Yeah, they're pretty good. Add them to the end if you really wanna read the 10 you have now.

>>619431
i refuse to believe she died

>>619401
Exactly my feeling. Happy that I borrowed that doorstop rather than buying it.

>>619810
Me too. The pacing just isn't the same as when GRRM killed off the others. The Catelyn zombie surprised me; wished she'd stayed dead, though.

Mother fuck i hate martin for fucking with a dance with dragons, not because i can't wait, i can...now after obsessing about it for 3 months i came to terms with it, BUT MOTHER FUCK he's going to die before he finishes the series if he continues onthe same track.

He has said that he doesn't keep any real notes and he doesn't even want anyone to finish the story if he can't anymore.

>>620555

Has anyone actually thought that he may have intended this all along for the lulz?

Think about, Martin writes books he knows will be well received, keeps writing sequels spacing them out and then BAM doesn't write the last one, jets off to his island to live with native girls as their King for the rest of his life rolling in the cash evryone is still throwing at his estate to buy "that great series that was never finished".

You guys got george-rolled.

>>619724
Don't bother reading until the series is complete. The books are so interesting you will read them all in a few weeks.

Saying that though, the series will never be finished so I suggest you stay away completely.

>>619431
We don't know for certain that she's dead. Same with Sandor. I refuse to accept it until it's confirmed in the next book(s).

>>619631
That was actually totally unintentional but now that I see it I'm loling.

When I got who were the parents of Jon, I almost had an orgasm. Couldn't understand it for three books and then TA-DAH! Shit was so cash.
Hope George will live another 60 years.

>>621292
I didn't catch it... who was mom? I remember some talk about a princess who killed herself of something

>>621317
If you don't remember something, maybe you should reread the books? It's better to catch it yourself.
The parents are Rhaegar Targaryen and Lyanna Stark.

What happened with this series is, he got beyond the point where he knew what he wanted to happen and has had to confront that the story is going to change into a very different 'high-fantasy' type story with zombie invasions, ice-spiders, proper magic and shit. And that that isn't as original as what he's already written. And so he's like "oh fuck, the direction I planned on going will cause the quality to go down no matter what I do, fuck". And so he's dithering.

>>621373
actually he lost almost 2 years because he'd written ADWD and then threw it away (the idea about the 5 years spun happened to be shitty)
so the book's been written (it seems we'll see it this autumn) from scratch again

I had to force myself through AFFC. That last fucking chapter in Storm with Tyrion and Tywin was better than everything in Feast combined.

>>621384
2 years lost, plus 3 years to write AFfC, plus another FIVE+ years to write ADwD? I'm sorry, something else has to have been going on. He never took more than three years to write a book before.
There has to have been problems figuring out what he actually wants to happen (i.e. plotting) or I don't buy that he could waste 2 years writing a book before discovering that he'd missed out too much. Problems making the story itself 'work' are the only thing that can possibly explain this kind of giant gap.

>>619219
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>>621391

yes, that was worth all the rest.

>>621409
Anyone else think that Dany's chapters suck and she is perhaps the least developed of all the POV characters?

>>621426
bit of a mary sue.

>>621409
Yeah, he confessed he hadn't been going to make it so long, in the beginning he thought to write just 3 books, but then...
Yet seems to me ADWD will be as good as A Storm of Swords: Jon, Daenerys, Tyrion and his plots against Cersei etc.

>>619222
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>>621391
There were a whole bunch of chapters in Storm like that. He pretty obviously planned out the first trilogy in considerable depth and then got stuck once he reached the end of his detailed outline.

Feast is him setting up a bunch of chapters like that for future books: Sansa getting sucked into Vale politics, Arya's training to do you-know-what, Cersei's issues queening, etc. It's all obvious setup, so yeah it's boring until you know where it's going.

>>621436
My all-star list of POV characters would be: Tyrion, Jon, Sandor, Roose Bolton, Stannis, Victarion, the Sparrow High Septon, Jaime, and maybe Bronn.

>>621450
And what about Sansa? I believe there will be some interesting shit about her world's conceptions. Gonna see another Cersei in the end, but not so stupid and thus way more dangerous.
The most interesting character for me now.

>>621469
Littlefinger is the best part about Sansa's chapters but I can really see how she can become another Cersei and how Zombie Catelyn will react.

>>621474
I got you, but George showed us several times that some our obvious conclusions and expectations can be crushed.

It annoys me that Cersei wasn't all that stupid prior to AFFC.

She just went to shit then.

>>619222
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>>621492
The incident with Joffrey really threw her off. She lost Myrcella to Dorne and she only had Tommen left so she had to ensure his safety. Her father/idol is dead, Tyrion is on the loose, and Jaime has spurned her. Her gender prevented many from taking her seriously and she was incredibly paranoid around the council and the court.

She saw Margaery and the Knight of Flowers tearing Tommen away from her and it just sent her over the edge. I think she's justified even though she did get really fucking stupid.

Does anyone besides me think that the new head of the Church is going to play a much larger role in following books? Now that he is able to militarize members of the church, he basically has his own army.

>>619219
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>>621537
I'm a bit surprised Martin didn't introduce all this church mess earlier. As though he's just realized the potential of this new force for the plot.

>>621542
Yeah, it's weird that he's just taking advantage of religion now as it was pretty much the impetus for everything during the medieval times.

>>621469
People actually like Sansa? All her chapters were a constant "stupid naive girl makes stupid decisions".

>>621586

Yeah, but Littlefinger of all people is teaching her how to play the great game.

>>621590
She's been through too many
>Shit happens that should smarten her up
>Forgets about it and goes back to being stupid and naive
moments to be redeemable.

Hopefully Littlefinger will use her for whatever plot he has and do away with her.

If he cops out and has Jon and Dany marry and rule the world, I will fucking kill someone. That is so predictable it's sad.

>>621602
You can see through AFFC how she turns from "oh, that must not be truth! there are absolute fairness and good!" into "I don't give a fuck, just trying to survive".

>>621622
Jon is too principled for this. So I don't think there will be any love affairs between them. And yes, it's too much obvious.

>>621537

yeah ive been thinking this, having the head of the church as a new POV and with it sandor's story will be told from that POV after he is finished digging graves on that monestry island

>>621627
She was like that for a while after someone was spoilered in the first book too... until she forgot about it and decided a selfless drunk was going to save her.

>>621647
I'm confused as to why she doesn't reflect upon her betrayal of Ned more often.

>>621632
Dany will die fighting the others. Jon will marry Arya and Sansa and rule Westeros like Aegon the Conqueror did with two queens. It's not even incest, as they're cousins, but it means a story that was set in motion by incest gets to finish on something equally controversial. You heard it here first.

And yes, I have thought about writing the slashfic. Much hair-ruffling ensues.

>>621660
>Jon will marry Arya and Sansa and rule Westeros like Aegon the Conqueror did with two queens.
Ahaha, you know, you got a point.
>I have thought about writing the slashfic.
I would (just in case).

>>619222
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I pray Dany dies. I've always disliked her and her chapters have been the parts of the story I've had to slog through when reading ASOIAF.

>>621688

i didnt like her chapters at the start but as the story progressed she become a great POV to read, and now with barriston in her fold shits going to be awsome.

>>621709
I've basically been in love with her character since the Houses of the Undying chapter. Shit was like something out of Le Guin's Earthsea, one of the first two that were really mind-blowing.

>>621688
her chapters are boring because they are the only ones to deal with magic and long senseless fantasy names.

>>621332
>wat.jpg

WAT?

WHERE THE FUCK DOES IT SAY THIS

HOLY FUCK REREADING RIGHT NOW LIKE A MOTHERFUCKER

>long senseless fantasy names.
I guess you're one of those people who have no problems keeping track of all those Sers in the Appendix.

>>621688
I liked her at the beginning, but now she's trying her hardest to become her brother. While also being a moralfag.

>>621742

no one actullly comes out and says he is but from the information and circumstances that is what most people believe.

Serious confession time.

When I first read the books I ignored Jon and Daenerys' (and later Samwell's) chapters because the political power struggle and Arya/Sansa's adventures in Westeros were so compelling.

I read maybe the first couple of parts in the first book, back when Drogo was still alive and before Jon and the Watch went beyond the Wall, but it was just so detached and boring I skipped over all subsequent chapters in the next books.

It wasn't until years later when I was rereading the books that I read all those chapters. .... :| was my face when I realized my horrid mistake then.

Am I retarded if I didn't pick up on Renly and Loras being gay before coming to the internet and hearing about it?

>I skipped Samwell's chapters
My God do his chapters in Feast ever suck.

well, the whole Jon, son of X, stuff passed me by when I was reading the novels...

>>621765
>>621756
Bran's chapters are the worst. fuck little crippled boy complaining. I cried a little every time it would switch to him.

>>621765
seconded, I was sad when I realized he was a POV character

>>621760
wtf?

>>621771

I was so happy when I thought he was dead ;_;

>>621760

You just don't have a good gaydar, Beware which bars you walk into.

>>621760
There are clues scattered in the second book if you're looking for them, but most don't directly point to them being homosexual, it only adds to the theory (except for when Renly asked Loras to teach him how to 'pray', that shit was lols). A lot of people, myself included, missed it at the time since there was so much other shit going on at the time and fanatical loyalty to your master isn't really an unusual thing in the books.

>>621750
This, however, I've never seen any evidence supporting or anything in the books that points to it.

I really would like to know what in the books leads to this theory. Really. Cause this would be so motherfucking awesome if it was true, holy fuck that would be a mindgasm. Goddamn, that would be amazing.

Feast for Crows was OK. Sure, you can say that not much of true significance happened, but it was great for putting the world and some characters in perspective.

>>621772

Yeah apparently that's like common knowledge among the fans.

>>621767
Almost nobody figures that stuff out without going on the internet.

>>621779
I see AFFC's definitive contribution to the plot of A Song of Ice and Fire being the establishment of the religious army and the appointment of the Sparrow to the office of High Septon. That shit is going to be apart of the story in a big way.

>>621777

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/FAQ/Entry/2291/

There's a shitload of info. Scroll down to the Rhaegar part.

when it first described Loras during the tournament i thought to myself "seems pretty gay to me" Never clicked with Renly though, i thought he was a ladies man.

>>621771
>Bran chapters
But his dialogue with Hodor is so compelling!

>>621795
Hodor~!

I didn't pick up of Jaqen being the Alchemist when reading myself.

>>621798
HODOR! HODOR!
The Coen Bros got nothing on this nigga.

>>621791

oh my god

>Promise me Ned
>smell of blood and flowers
>HOW MANY TIMES DID HE RAPE LYANNA, NED? - Robert Baratheon
>three heads of the dragon
>Promise me Ned
>Ned being adamant from the start in declaring Jon as his son
>Ned never telling anyone, not even Catelyn, of Jon's birth
>Promise me Ned

>my face

holy fucking shit

I will fucking hunt you down and stab you Martin if you die before releasing the final books old man

>>621317
>>621332
wait...ive read this series twice and never caught that...
can someone explain when this shit comes up

>>621817

Totally man. And it really made sense to me because I was always suspicious as to why Ned was so asspained whenever someone asked him about Jon. I mean sure he was all about honor but still it seemed a bit over the top.

I'm just glad the books got new covers when they were rereleased here in Europe. The American ones are fugly.

>>621817
I actually didn't read past Game Of Thrones until I happened upon a Westeros board discussion of this and a chapter summary of the next two books. I don't normally read much fantasy and IMHO Thrones isn't as original by itself as most people thought (it's also got the worst prose of any of the books).

Once I was reassured that it was going somewhere I came back and read Clash and Storm and fucking loved every minute.

>>621817
If Martin pulls this off correctly it will be the biggest mind-fucker in fantasy.

I can see it now: Dance with Dragons or Winds of Winter. Final chapter. Bran. Meeting with Howland Reed.

Rhaegar Targaryen loved Lyanna Stark so much he dedicated the three best of his Kingsguard, including the Sword of the Morning, to her defense at the Tower of Joy, placing her safety above his own.Because she was pregnant.She dies in childbirth and Jon is born.As her dying wish Lyanna asks for Eddard to raise Jon as his own and give him a good life.

>Promise me Ned

That would be so fucking amazing, Jesus.

>>621872

Did anyone pick up on this during their first read of the series? For me there was just too much going on to connect the dots of "promise me, Ned" and his reluctance to speak of Jon's birth.

>>621817
>>621872

Oh my god, AND this clears up another thing I've been wondering for years.

Ever since I read Feast for Crows and agreed with the concensus that Daenerys was going to come back to Westeros and conquer, like Aegon, leading to more Targaryen rule I always wondered how that would was going to happen since Daenerys is infertile and she was the last living Targaryen once Aemon died.

If this is true and Jon is a Targaryen, then he can continue the bloodline.

Seriously, my mind is so fucked right now.

>>621883
To be honest, I was racing through the non-Tyrion chapters.

>>621872
You'd think he'd be motivated to finish faster with a twist like that up his sleeve. He could safely lower his standards as regards the actual writing, just make sure the plot works and it'd still be arguably the best fantasy series evar

Meh, for all of his attempts to be "edgy" and "lol so depressing", I never found the series that well thought out or compelling. If anything it is quite two dimensional.

>>621943
You're trying too hard.

>>621960

nope, not really

>>621943
You need to read beyond the first book before the layers of fantasy trope-subversion really start to come into effect. GoT doesn't really kick off for me until the scene were 13yo Prince Joffrey gets his 'honorable knight' bodyguard to punch his 12yo fiancee in the face.

>>622013
>implying Sansa doesn't deserve to be punched in the face

>>621960
No, this would be trying too hard:

>>621900 He could safely lower his standards as regards the actual writing
If he writes any worse, you nitwits might notice how awful his books are.

>>622021
Would you or anyone else actually like to go into detail about these thoughts beyond simply "two-dimensional" or "terrible" and insulting the people that read it?

>>622020
Oh totally. It's still more dramatic than Ned being executed though (he totally brought it on himself and which anyone who hasn't read too much David Eddings saw it coming a mile away).

>>622020
Eh...personally, there were times when I wanted to punch her in the face, but I remember bawwwing at that part where she was rebuilding Winterfell in the snow.

>>622029

They're trolling, dude.

>>622046
No, I'm pretty sure there are a lot of people who don't like them. Whether or not they've read beyond the first book is another question. But they certainly exist. Dismissing everyone who isn't a plot-obsessed fanboy/girl as a troll is a bit silly.

>>622046
i have never really felt pity for her. Even when she's getting smacked around jeoffery she manages to be so stupid that i cannot sympathize with her.

>>622056
If you're calling everyone in a thread "nitwits" for liking something, then you're most likely trolling.

In case anyone missed em heres pics of Arya from the upcoming series.

>>621760

I think I picked up on it somewhere in ASoS when Jaime made some crude comment to Loras. I don't remember what he said.

>>622066

Pretty much how I imagined Arya, but way more scruffy

>>622066
I always pictured Needle as a rapier

>>622013
The scene in Clash of Kings where Joffrey has his Kingsguards strip Sansa naked and beat her with their swords, only for Tyrion to come to her rescue was seriously awesome.

While I do agree Sansa deserves something, being beaten by grown men and then forced to watch her father's beheading and then being led to believe her entire goddamn family is dead and she's completely alone in the universe is kind of pushing it. Her only mistake, aside from being naive and annoying, which isn't seriously a crime seeing as how she's only what... 13? 14?, was to alert Cersei of Eddard's plans and because of that mistake Eddard dies.

I'd say she learned her lesson, but Martin said NO FUCK IT LET'S DO THIS BITCH and started piling in with the punishments and still hasn't stopped punishing her. It makes me shudder to think what pedo-Petyr Baelish has in plans for her. And that's what makes this series fuck-awesome.

Buggered up and posted 2 of 2 as a new thread. /facepalm
>>622076

>>622080
>>622090
Needle is a rapier and Arya's fucking hair is supposed to be black.

>>622100
Those pictures weren't on the set. I think they were taken by the actress's mother or something. If you get butthurt over this, the series will be a chore for you.

She definitely isn't ugly enough, however.

>>622100
no it's not. the Starks have dark brown hair.

>>622090
Needle is a rapier, isn't it?

It's described as a stabbing weapon with a thin blade, basically an edged rapier.

And Eddard calls it a bravo's blade, and the bravi were largely fencers that used rapiers.

>>622094
Perhaps GRRM got wind of how little people were willing to see her point of view and decided to really up the punishment. She's my favorite character now because she reacts to horrible situations like a normal person (by crying and going into the fetal position), but that's not what most ppl read fantasy for. She has a bunch of great scenes, she's probably not just going to die pointlessly.

>>622094
Every scene in The Eyrie so far in AFFC reminds me eerily of Mysteries of Udolpho.

>>622056 Whether or not they've read beyond the first book is another question

Considering how fucking long these are, why exactly should GRRM be given the benefit of the doubt after one novel?

>>622123
Yeah "Stick them with the pointy end" doesn't really apply to broadswords as much as it does a rapier.

Wait, if Daenerys is one head of the Targaryen dragon, and Jon is the second, who is the third?

>>622123
It *might* not be needle - the pic is from her training so they're not going to be using the final props. Perhaps it's a practise sword.

>>622129
Because bitching about book length as if your time is valuable is stupid and you know it. You still haven't made any meaningful points, so I'm resigned to your troll status.

>>622135
Still, if you're training to use a rapier you don't use a broadsword.

>>622059
Well, honestly, part of what made that part so sad for me was it really just drives home the fact that this family has become utterly destroyed. That's pretty freaking sad.

>>622127
Come sit on my lap Sans-I mean Alayne. Now call me Daddy. Mmm. That's right.

>>622144
Apart from Jon and Arya, the Starks were annoying moralfags and it drove me to where I was actually cheering during the Red Wedding and the raid of Winterfell.

>>622138 Because bitching about book length as if your time is valuable is stupid and you know it

Wow, just wow. Exactly how big a fanboy can you possibly be that you can't comprehend why someone who wasn't thrilled with a 800+ page novel wouldn't bother waiting for it to finally get "good" through it's 1,000 page follow-up?

>>622154
>moralfags

Here we go again. Just go back to /v/ please.

>>622156
Make some actual points or fuck off.

>>621777

I accidentally stumbled upon the R+L=J theory during my first read through of AGOT, so I've had the opportunity to look out for clues. I'm pretty positive its true.

Ned had too much honor to father a bastard. I believe that Lyanna died during childbirth and that promise she wanted Ned to keep was to raise Jon as his own. She knew that if Robert found out he would kill Jon. This is the same reason that Ned hides Cersei's relationship with Jaime from Robert. The dragon has three heads, so that mean Jon plus Rhaegar's other two children. Also, Dany has a vision of a blue flower on a wall of ice, which is Jon.

>>622160

moralfag.

>>622150
He was totally obsessed with Catelyn, and now he's got her daughter, who not only just began her periods and is ripe for plunder, but is also very physically similar to Catelyn and who will supposedly become the most beautiful Stark of all. And she's completely in his power because she has literally no one else and it's either this or go back on trial for regicide.

That's just seriously fucking creepy. And awesome. But mostly creepy.

>>622170
cool spoiler tags, bro

I'm not going to read this thread because of spoilers, but I'm halfway through A storm of swords and it's probably the most badass book I've ever read.

The Hound is awesome, Jon is awesome, Arya is awesome, Beric is awesome, even fucking Jaime is awesome.

>>622094
She totally deserved that, because it was her fault.

>>622126
I like to pretend that normal people aren't as retarded as Sansa.

>>622170
Cool repeating almost exactly what I said here >>621817 >>621872 bro.

>>622164
Like I could convince a mindless sycophant like you that GRRM relies on nigh-comical levels of sex and violence to disguise a rather ho-hum plot in a rather ho-hum setting.

And you *still* won't answer why a reader who didn't enjoy the first 800+ page novel should be expected to sit through an even longer novel to finally start enjoying the series.

>>622135
http://grrm.livejournal.com/146489.html
>Her sword, of course, is the full-scale replica of Needle produced by the good folks at Valyrian steel.

>>622192
I remember before /lit/ was created, someone on /co/ said that Jaime losing his hand was the best thing that ever happened to him. I can't help but agree. Look at how much he's grown since then.

>>622164
Just ignore him dude. We're having a good thread here.

>>622184
The creepiness makes it great setup for whatever happens. Like, she actually has something to manipulate Petyr with: his dick. But wait! She's Sansa and is naive and pure, and it would never even occur to her to do something like that. Only she just met that saucy Vale widow in the last chapter of Feast.

So like I said, fucking awesome setup - and we're not even going to get to any of that in Dance. FFS.

>>622205 We're having a good circlejerk here.
I'll never understand why people on 4chan are content to have the same threads every day. They're never different, and it's always the same fanboys.

Then again, GRRM fanboys are more understandable considering they don't actually have anything else to do in their fandom since the fat fuck will never finish his next book.

>>622196
>Like I would want to make a point to you
>You still won't answer my point

Your troll fu is weak. Practice.

>>622185

Ned dies at the end of AGOT. Also, Catelyn and Robb die in ASOS, but Catelyn is resurrected at the end.

>>622215
trying way too hard bro

>>622218
Oh, that's just wrong.

>>622134
I'll bite on the third Tyrion. His father always questioned Tyrion being his legitimate child. His hair is so blond as to best be described as white. He has one green eye and one black eye (the colors in the war of the Blackfyre Rebellion in which a Targaryen trueborn was passed over and a bastard son was given the Valyrian house sword, Dark Sister). He has a noted fascination with dragons. He often mockingly replies "am I?" when people mention that he is Tywin's son. In AGOT, he gives this bit of advice to Jon: Never forget who you are. Armor yourself in it and it can never be your weaknesss, only your strength...moments later, he walks back into the dining hall at Winterfell and Jon notices that his shadow makes him stand taller than a King. I am on my 4th re-read of this series and it is amazing the things that stand out.

Here is another something I am going to predict: The "word" that Brienne says is "wolf" as she is being lifted to hang. Nymeria is lost in the Riverlands, brave and bold leading a pack of wolves assaulting men. The BwB captures Brienne in the Riverlands, and given the capacity for all of the Stark kids to be able to warg somewhat into their wolves, Arya's "blindness" may actually force her into warging Nymeria. Though she doesn't know Brienne, she may recognize her mother Cat. It had been mentioned that a rather large wolf dragged the body out of the river. Brienne seeing a watchful, feral wolf from her vantage point on the rope is completely possible--especially if that wolf was following Cat.

>>622215
This troll would work better if most of us didn't basically agree with you.

>>622228
NO LUKE, I AM YOUR FATHER.

>>622210
If Sansa the stupid little girl manages to manipulate Littlefinger the plotting mastermind.... then fuck you GRRM.

>>622228
Your first theory makes a lot of sense. It seems too easy though. I get the feeling that George is going to swerve us or something.

I didn't understand the justification for how Catelyn was resurrected. Thoros says that he couldn't do it, that she had been dead for three days and that the kiss of life wouldn't have any effect. But Beric resurrects her...with the kiss of life that Thoros said wouldn't have any effect.

>>622236
She could do it with sex. Littlefinger's a lot of things but she has something to offer him no one else has, and that he's always wanted.

>>622236
If people can't wrap their heads round female characters developing in unexpected directions even if they started out 12 years old...

>>622246
He's in such a position of power over her that he would just take it.

>>622254
I think he wants it given freely of her own will and desire. Something Cate never did. It would probably mean more that way.

>>622244
in doing so, Beric killed himself.
Thoros probably wouldn't have gone that far to resurrect Cat.

>>622246
He's in such a position of power over her that he would just take it. And Sansa is stupid enough to lay back and accept it.

>>622210
"Life is not a song, sweetling."

Fucking love that line from Petyr to Sansa.

>>622252
and outsmarting the most conniving man in the world? No.

>>622254
>implying that the promise of fucking a guy of your own free will so they don't have to use force isn't leverage enough to potentially manipulate them.

>>622238
Meera and Jojen told Bran of the story of the Knight of the Laughing Tree and were amazed that Eddard never told the story to Bran. When read, the story reads as both a story of the past and symbolic of the present. In that story, A beautiful girl with violet eyes dances with 3 wolves--cant remember their exact words except that she danced with the Quiet Wolf last. Jon is usually associated with being a Quiet Wolf (as with Ghost) as was Eddard. In the story, Ashara Dayne is supposed to be the girl with violet eyes, yet Dany can replace. The rowdy girl who defends Howland from the squire bullies can be Lyanna-said to be a fighter and great with swords, or Arya. I need to reread that chapter, but I do remember that as I read it, there were more similarities. And remember, Jojen can green dream...

>>622196

>Like I could convince a mindless sycophant like you that GRRM relies on nigh-comical levels of sex and violence to disguise a rather ho-hum plot in a rather ho-hum setting.

the levels of sex/rape in the books isnt as high as people make out, you see more sex on tv and in papers than what you read in these books. and god fucking forbid i read a medieval fantasy book without scenes of absolute voilence, such is befitting the time period and world.

fuck off and go read about fluffy bunnys and rainbows in a perfect world.

>>622266
Given that you yourself are assuming that Sansa is a naive moron, Petyr could make the same mistake. He is freely telling her all his plans after all.

>>622228
While your first theory seems plausible, I don't think it's likely.

Several reasons:

1. Tyrion himself has admitted that he, of all of Tywin's children, is the most like Tywin, and this is reflected in the books. Unlike Jaime, who is apathetic and reckless, and Cersei, who is rash and impatient, Tyrion is the one who is most similar to Tywin - calculating, manipulative, and a political mastermind. He and Tywin are of the same minds when the war first begins and the Lannisters are trying to figure out how to deal with the Starks, Tullys, and Renly.

2. Tyrion's entire character development over the whole of the saga thus far has been to admit his similarity to his father and get over what his father did to him, culminating in the murder of Tywin and Tyrion himself claiming he's his father in dwarf form. He despises his father due to the incident with Tysha, and distances himself from his family, even going so far as to oppose Cersei when he returns to King's Landing for no other reason than it would piss her off, but it's the mind he inherited from Tywin that serves him best all along.

3. I think the third dragon is a teenager, on par with Jon and Daenerys, and likely a woman. If the series is indeed to end with Targaryen rule, Jon has to be the father of the new dynasty, and in keeping with Targaryen tradition, the mother will likely be his half-sister or cousin, and it cannot be Daenerys because she's infertile.

>>622259
>>622270

The thought that Littlefingers downfall will be because deep down he's still the lovesick puppy he was growing up.. is a shitty end to a good "villain" IMO. Sansa is a bad liar, and Littlefinger is Littlefinger.

>>622244
I think it may have something to do with her wanting so much revenge for those who have destroyed her family. In life, protecting her family was reason enough to free Jaime Lannister in the middle of a goddamned war. Now she's just a vengeful witch that leads the BwB, who now do not even know what their purpose is. I wouldn't say Cat is completely alive and I wouldn't trust the servants of the Red God of Fire (Thoros and Mellisandre) since it seems that Thoros "accidentally' resurrected Beric, and Melissandre doesn't even know that Aemon is kingly blood. It should also be noted that in this time of the Comet, things that haven't happened for centuries are happening again: the pyromancer's spells are working very efficiently, a Black Candle burns in Oldtown, Dragons are alive, rumors of a Kraken are whispered, Direwolves show up, etc...Basically, things that people learned can't happen are happening again.

>>622294

the third dragon after dany and jon is probly going to be one of the blackfyre's who is in charge of the gold company coming back to westeros. he mentions the blackfryer rebellion so much in the books that it seems resonable.

>>622305
You either like the idea or you don't. I think it would be in keeping with the irony behind most of the other 'downfalls' in the books. Also, arguably Petyr is only the second or third most effective manipulator in the books depending on how highly you rate Varys/Ilyrio and Olenna Redwyne.

>>622343
I think Qyburn is going to do just fine.

i just hope we get to see mother fucking howland reed and have him clear some things up.

>>622294
I am only throwing a theory out there, but to retort:

1. Simiarities in thinking happen between like-minded people. This doesn't mean that they are related. In fact, Tywin and Tyrion often butt heads over things such as inheritance of Casterly Rock and marriage. These alone can make them un-related by blood according to the same footing. Even in the dealings of the War, Tyrion and Tywin have opposite views on the Stark boy Robb. Tyrion thinks Tywin underestimates Robb (which he does at every battle)

2. I cannot agree that his entire development is in proving how alike he is with Tywin. He has an interest in the Wall, He designs a saddle for Bran, He actually fights in a battle, He disciplines Joff, He drinks and whores, He is squat and ugly, He smiles and jests. NONE of these things is similar to Tywin. In fact they go so far as to define him and paint him as entirely unlike Tywin except in the area of championing his "family cause". Interestingly, when Tyrion explains to Cat that he lost the dagger betting at the tourney, he rather stiffly tells her that he "does not bet against his family"--this can have a double meaning if taken with the conspiracy theory that Tyrion is in fact a Targaryen

3. This is not an argument. Simply thinking the 3rd head will be a teenager doesn't present anything. And Mirri Maz Duur's curse said that Drogo will live again when she can have another child--it never said "never". :)

I seldom fling children from towers to improve their health. Yes, I meant for him to die.

>>622356

no shit man, I've forgotten more than I even know about those books at this point, but I do remember that the lil' marsh dwelling fucker has some 'splainin' to do.

>>622343
A genius being beaten by a retard is ironic alright.. In a perfect world:

Littlefinger gets outsmarted by Tyrion or someone in an elaborate brick-shitting scheme where everything he's built crumbles down around him.

Sansa slipped off the mountain on her way down. Maybe she should have had some loyalty to her fucking father.

>>622340
He also mentions it in the Dunk and Egg tales.

off to bed, leaving the thread with a quote

"Maybe I've never seen a camel...
but I know a Camel's cunt when I see one."

so fitting.

>>622375
>Maybe she should have had some loyalty to her fucking father.
Maybe Ned shouldn't have been such a loltard as to assume the most powerful noble family in Westeros would just accept banishment to the Free Cities for no fucking reason other than Honour. That Ned could be that stupid is easily the dumbest thing in GoT. All Sansa did was screw up her own chances of getting out of King's Landing before things went south.

Here's something that bothers me that I haven't heard anyone trying to explain:
As the Lords of the Eyrie get pissed at Littlefinger after Lysa's death, he sends a letter to Kings Landing, not asking for help (because he basically has them in his back pocket), but asking for tapestries that King Robert took down depicting the Targaryens. What the fuck?

>>622399
I think it's his way of showing he doesn't give a fuck.

>>622399
Why does Littlefinger need help? He already has the lords of the Vale beaten with his Sansa marriage plot and their own agreement that he has a year to get shit straightened out. Hell, he already has several of the lords on his payroll.

I am starting to warm to the idea that Tyrion may be the third head of the Dragon. I just realized how much GRRM stresses that Kinslaying (Tyrion killing Tywin) is much worse than Kingslaying. If Tyrion is a Targ, he didn't commit Kinslaying so much as he killed the Hand of the Usurpers

a little somthing for the people who didnt catch it the first time round

“She will come to my bed a maiden.” –Renly
“And in your bed she is like to die that way.” –Stannis

>>622406
I always thought that that was classic brother-brother joking, but Stannis isn't the comedic type of guy.

>>622406

ill raise a jaime quote

Jaime grabbed the boy[loras] with his good hand and yanked him around. “I am the Lord Commander of the Kingsguard, you arrogant pup. Your commander, so long as you wear that white cloak. Now sheathe your bloody sword, or I’ll take it from you and shove it up some place even Renly never found.”

>>622411
It's just Stan's way of saying "u r gay, lol"

>>622406
Don't forget how much Loras "comforts" Renly. Most of the fan sites for this series accept that Renly and Loras are gay for each other

>>622397
Yeah, that was stupid too. Ned was a moralfag, but Sansa... betraying your family because you want to stay at the pretty castle and wear pretty dresses? Bitch went full retard.

>>622420
Martin said as much in an interview when asked directly. He simply said yes, they are.

>>622421
She just didn't understand WTF was going on. She didn't realise she was 'betraying' anyone. tl;dr LEAVE SANSA ALOOONNNNEE

>>622403
I meant the WTF concerning the tapestries he urgently asks for. It seems odd to me that he would be so interested in them during a time in which he can basically be stripped of his Lordship. Yes, I realize he has the Vale sewn up, but why even ask for these tapestries? Does on show Targaryen lineage?

Bastard of Bolton is taking "Arya" as his wife, a disguised Jeyne Poole. Theon Greyjoy is being flayed somewhere on the orders of Bolton's Bastard. When/If Theon sees Jeyne, he will know it is not Arya. What kind of trouble can this bring?

You fat nerds are ruining /lit/.

>>622533
Theon is probably in no state to see anyone.

>>622533
It would be poetic justice in a way because Ramsay dressed up as Reek to get away from Ser Rodick Cassel. Then he flayed 2 millers kids and dressed them up as Bran and Rickon to deceive the people of Winterfell. Now he's getting a fake Arya.

>>622538
Fuck Theon.

I'm 3/4 of the way through aFfC, is it ever confirmed that [spoilers]benjen stark is 'coldhands'? [/spoilers]

>>622272
You can find a summary of this chapter here:

http://www.towerofthehand.com/books/103/025/index.html

>>622562
[soiler]not as of yet[/soiler]

would it be wrong to assume that viserys was the third head of the dragon before khal drogo 'crowns' him though, then again, i always thought he acted more like a lannister. also, is mance ryder's story ever wrapped up after stannis goes all awesome on the wildling horde?

>>622540
heh never thought about it that way lol. very subtle.

>>622540
so roose bolton has accepted his son's conquest and utter devastation of the north, including the 'murder' of the starks? or is there an imminent power struggle between them?

Damn you, /lit/. I was putting off rereading the first three and finally reading AFFC until Martin finally finishes ADWD...now I'm going to have to just do it now. Damn you all.

>>622583
I think so because she gets the prophecy after the crowning of Viserys.

Mance's story is not done yet either. More importantly, the Horn that can bring down the Wall isn't dealt with yet.

>>622599
Roose is weird because he seems at times to not give a flying fuck, but you get the sense that he is proud of the doings of Ramsay--and possibly even quarterbacking the whole thing.

>>622602
but, is the horn's sole purpose to bring down the wall? as i recall, it depends more on the user's intention. if so, if dany makes a conquest of the north, will it be a necessary weapon for her to use against the others? if she must obtain it to secure victory, that means an unavoidable encounter with jon, as lord of the night's watch. also, on a somewhat unrealted point, the name of the red priests god, R'hollor (spelling?) is similar phonetically, in my head at least, to Rhaegar, if that means anything. if mellisandre is still at the wall when dany comes that should prove interesting.

>>622192
SAMEFAG HERE

I JUST READ THE RED WEDDING

HOLY

SHIT

DID THAT REALLY JUST HAPPEN

THE BEHEADING IS NOTHING COMPARED TO THIS

>>622642
yeah. it happened. ;_; bad vibes man.

>>622642
I was idly wondering when you would get to that when I read your post.

>>622638
>R'hllor sounds like Rhaegar

>>622599
The Boltons have always wanted control of the North, so Roose is probably pretty happy with Ramsay.
Hell, he probably told Ramsay to do it.

>>622665
how would you pronounce them. it's probably just me.

>>622638
I don't remember the horn having anything to do with the users intentions. It is not an instrument to battle the Others. If it did bring down the wall, 100 thousand wildlings will be able to go south. Though this isn't a trained army, theres still 100 thousand of them. Jon learns that they aren't bad people looking to invade Westeros so much as they are trying to haul ass out of the North to get away from the Others. Jon and Dany seem fated to meet, though. Remember her vision in the prophecy house of a wall of ice where a single blue flower grew? Lyanna Stark was fond of blue roses--making the Jon is the son of Lyanna and Rhaegar theory even stronger. Not to mention this would make Jon a Targaryen and Targs often wed brother to sister.

>>622673
i though stannis was allowing the wildlings through the wall to settle the gift, and was planning on battling the others with mellisandre regardless. and in the tent when jon and ryder are discussing the horn, mance insinuates that even they don't know the extent of its powers, that leaves a lot of room for martin to screw around with.

You guys gotta get the audiobooks read by Roy Dotrice. He gives a cockney accent to characters like Arya and Davos that totally make me look at them in a different light. I listen to these as I play Hogs of War.

>>622684
Martin leaves a lot of open ends like that. I remember reading passing references to a Dragon that sleeps beneath Winterfell--possibly giving heat to the hotsprings that warm the walls. And hearing that the dragon wakes from salt and stone...I don't know. A lot of dead ends maybe, but more open ones.

>>622667
>>622665
i'd agree, i think they sound very similar, i doubt that it has any bearing though.

Do you guys actually enjoy these books or is this some sort of universal troll material?

>>622704
trolling

>>622704
gb2 Harry Potter

hey, i'm a first time scifi/fantasy reader, and agot is really the only fantasy series i've read, aside from LoTR. i've had 'the once and future king' recommended to me, but not much else. whilst i'm here, what books should i dig into to tide me over until DwD comes out. god, i feel like a tool using all these bloody acronyms

>>622723
I never read it either until this series. The Black Company is pretty great. The Name of the Wind is good, but some people think it's cliched. If you, like me, haven't read much fantasy, it won't feel very cliche. In my experience, anyway.

>>622638
>>622673
This just made me realize something.

1. Melisandre serves Stannis because she believes him to be Azor Ahai, the prophesied avatar of R'hllor, destined to rule and defeat the "Other", the enemy of R'hllor.
2. The Other is most likely the Others, the enemy of cold and darkness in contrast to R'hllor, god of fire and light. Jon battles the Others.
3. If Jon is Rhaegar's son, as Rhaegar's trueborn heir and Aerys' grandson, he is the claim to the throne by Targaryen birthright, and thus rightful ruler of all of Westeros.
4. Jon Targaryen is actually Azor Ahai, not Stannis Baratheon. If everything goes with the prophecy, Jon will defeat the Others and rule Westeros.
5. This means Melisandre's loyalty should belong to Jon and not Stannis, but she doesn't know this since no one knows Jon is a Targaryen. If she learns of this it's probable that she'll betray Stannis, which will likely lead to his death.

The potential for multiple plot twists is amazing.

>>622697
The dragon from salt and stone was Dany.

>>622723

The Wheel of Time series by Robert Jordan.
The Dying Earth Saga by Jack Vance.
The Lyonesse Trilogy by Jack Vance.
The Memory, Sorrow, and Thorn series by Tad Williams.

and of course Lord of the Rings, if you haven't read it yet.

>>622738
I would say a "no" on Lyonesse - I love Jack Vance, but it's really not his best work. Really poor plotting.

I would also throw ER Eddison into the picture. And Mervyn Peake.

>>622738
>>622745

>>622723
The Belgariad series by Eddings was the first series I read in the genre. It should be a fast read for anyone who has read the ASOIF series. Starts with Pawn of Prophecy.

I grew to appreciate A Feast for Crows with another re-reading. We get to see the aftermath of Jamie's character development that started in Swords kicked up multiple notches (His final chapter where he throws the letter into the fire, FUUUUU). And while I wasn't too enthralled by the Dorne chapters in the first reading, I see the set-up for some serious fuckery in the future.

Doran Martell may be about to trump Littlefinger in the Mastermind contest. Speaking of chess masters, I want to see more Olenna Tyrell; I love that old bitch. Don't fuck with the flowers.

Brienne needs to get back to Jaime ASAP. Her lackluster chapters aren't her fault -- I still think she's an interesting character -- but when she and Jaime are foiling each other, they're better than the sum of their parts. If Jaime ends up in a tough situation where people are about to call his left-handed bluff, it would be awesome if she popped up out of nowhere to save his ass in payment for the bear pit fiasco.

"I only save maidens." God, that chapter was amazing.

>>622730
do you think aemon was aware that jon was his nephew?

>>622961
He may or may not have known. Aemon is pretty much only excited when thinking about dragons.

can someone tell me what it is in the books that makes you think rhaegar is jons father?

>>622961
Great great great grand nephew

>>623113
see>>621791

>>623166
plausible though tbh i hope its not the case

>>623215
if it is the case and george is aware that people know, he'll re-write dance with dragons AGAIN.

>>622454

Tapestry talk:

[spoilers]Rereading the series recently, in AGOT, one of the things Dany hears a couple times from Viserys and/or Illyrio is that the people of Westeror work on and hide away Targaryen-glorifying tapestries in hopes that Targaryen rule will return.

I think Littlefinger is literally getting these tapestries because he knows Dany is going to show up, and he can be all 'look how much I love the Targs.' and then gain Dany's trust and he may or may not fuck her over, and perhaps be one of Dany's three major betrayals.

I think those 'betrayals' are thought of by Dany to have already happened in the books, but she's kinda dumb and doesn't see the full picture of things.

Also, while a lot of people think Sansa has been taken under Littlefinger's wing, I think it's possible he's just using her. After all, he was acting like he was crushing on her well before it was revealed how much of a dick he is, and he was one of the few people who knew a decent chunk of the course of events ahead of him, so he would have been planning ahead. He knew that Sansa was Joffery's betrothed, and since Ned was going to be a traitor, she would not end up marrying Joffery and thus be up for grabs. If lovey-dovey love was all he wanted from Sansa, he could have manipulated Sansa into being madly in love with him. Though it's possible he just wants Sansa to love him without him manipulating her, if that was the case then he'd have just donned some armor and a sword and showed up and rescued Sansa from King's Landing like a true knight.

>>623221
oh dear...

i hope not if only because im looking forward more to the book after this one. seing the other side of the coin is good ofcourse but still.

>>623255
or sided with eddard and saved him from having his head chopped off

>>623256

[spoilers]I doubt he'll do that. While I understand the temptation, when you write a long-running series with some kinda twist and put the hints in early on, even if only a couple superfans were to figure it out, it'd spread like wildfire on the internet. I'd say if anything, GRRM expects us to know that Jon is a Targ and will play off that somehow, probably having to do with him being the Prince that was Promised but he ended up swearing an oath to never wear a crown, hold no lands, etc. I would not be surprised if one or none of the Three Heads of the dragon end up being Targaryen by blood.
[/spoilers]

>>623261

True. Though I think he actually was trying to do that in a half-hearted way, getting Eddard to take the black. And Littlefinger's not badass enough to fight through the Kingsguard, even if he had hired a buncha guys to do it for him while he showed up at the end and was like, BIG DAMN HERO IS ME.

>>623269
> I would not be surprised if one or none of the Three Heads of the dragon end up being Targaryen by blood.
dont they have to be targs by blood? mm, its not really clear but i had the impression that only a targ could control a dragon and so by default it'd have to be a targ. i thought daenerys was one of the heads with jon if he turns out a targ while the third was still up in the air, some peep speculated it could be tyrion.

>>623275
i didnt get the impression that the kingsguard was that impressive for some reason, it was in the past during targaryen rule but after that it seemed...ordinary fancy looking knights. but i take your point, i cant really imagine littlefinger willingly putting himself in the thick of things unless his life was on the line.

>>623255
interesting. Until just now I never thought much to connect Littlefinger with Dany at all. But now that I think on it, he was present at Coucil when Robert decided to go ahead and have her killed. Selmy served on the same council and sided with Ned on the act of killing her being dishonorable. Selmy leaves the employ of Joff and heads where? To Dany. Littlefinger, though mute, has shown an ability to plant ideas in people's heads, so it might be possible that Barristan the Bold is out there on behalf of Littlefinger's cause. In getting Barristan out there, he effectively ousts Jorah Mormont from spying on Dany for the Council and supplants Jorah with his own spy.

>>623294

I don't remember hearing that. Plus from my reread, the Dragon having Three Heads, while someone says it may be a reference to Aegon or someone who was in a group of three Targaryens who rode dragons, it could easily come to mean something else.

Plus it'd be a bullshit rule if only a Targaryen could control a dragon. That must not be popular knowledge, because when Dany first got her dragons, all sorts of dudes were after them to use them as a weapon.

>>623312

Oh yeah, I guess the Kingsguard themselves aren't all that badass, though Mandon Moore (who has a hilarious name, though i'm not even sure he was on the Kingsguard at the time) and some other guy are described as tearing shit up in the first battle for King's Landing. But there would also be The Hound and Ilyn Payne there, who I believe are monster beasts in their own rights.

Also, guy who says Barristan could be a spy for Littlefinger is onto something. Haven't gotten to that part of the story much on my reread. Though, Varys is the one we've seen talking to Illyrio, and Barristan and Strong Belwas were sent to Dany by Illyrio, so it's either a Varys/Littlefinger tag-team or just Varys. But, messages can be intercepted. I wouldn't be too surprised if Littlefinger had tapped into Varys' spy network a bit, which would afford him a lot of info on Dany. Which he clearly knows about from the line "If you thought the war of the five kings was something, wait until the war of Three Queens."

>>623294
I forget where I read it, maybe on some transcript of some event GRRM went to, but he mentioned that a Targaryen didn't necessarily need to be the only one to hang out with dragons. Ugh I will need to look it up...

Not to mention that Euron Crows-Eye has a fucking horn that smokes and is supposed to bend dragons to his will. Maybe thats what GRRM was talking about.

>>623318
true but could they have controlled and used them after they stole them from her? it seemed as if she was going to give them away at one point in return for a city or something was it? also, the're magical creatures of extreme rarity, i wouldnt be at all surprised if they had all sorts of bullshit rules attached to them. like a targ long long ago saved a dragon from 'whatever' however unlikely that may be the case and as a result the dragon bound itself to him in return or something.
>>623317
i was both happy and sad to see mormont get kicked out by daenarys. sad because it means he'll prob get relegated to becoming purely a tool for some future single plot device, dying in the process.

on the other hand im happy cause it means if we get more of the BEAR MAN it'll have less daenarys in it despite him most likely reflecting constantly about her

You know one thing that bothers me a bit? Tyrion being a badass in combat. I can see how him being rich and thus having better armour, weapons, and a better horse and stuff can give him a big advantage, but he is inexperienced, out of shape, and a dwarf. In his first battles, he fought like he should have. But in the battle for King's Landing he mostly just tore through dudes. If they had shown him training with Bronn or exercising or something, I'd be fine with it, but I don't remember anything like that.[/spoiler]

>>623337
ah now that horn is a good point, it came from over-seas....whats the lore on the origins of the targs again? they just appeared suddenly didnt they? if so maybe the horn came from the same place where the dragons and targs came from, though ive a feeling im barking up the wrong tree there - think the targs came from the east while the horn came from somewhere in the west.

OP here. I'm glad my poorly made jpeg led to something.

Real dearth of GRRM discussion lately.

>>623358
'tore through dudes' - you dont think this is an exaggeration? he was nearly killed several times and even rescued i think from death by one of his followers when his opponent wasnt a standard army fodder grunt but a named character (who this named character is i cant remember...)
bit of plot armour sure but i never got the impression that was being a battlefield bad-ass. think he even spent ages afterwards bitching about how close he came to dying.

>>623368
thats supposed to be sansa i think no? wrong hair colour

>>623318
The whole idea of Baby Aegon being alive annoys me a little bit. It is known that Gregor Clegane smashed the babys skull against the wall, but was it a substitute? This site probes it a little deeper:
http://www.angelfire.com/ma4/mlarchives/faq/aegon.html

and this statement by GRRM makes it even more weird:
http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/1189/

Not to sound cruel but I am hoping that Baby Aegon is really dead. Having him be that way would make Aegon be less of a deus-ex-machina tool.

Another thing I am thinking about after the re-read:Jeyne Westerling may indeed be pregnant with Robbs child. Her mother may have played both sides (Lannister vs. Stark) just waiting to see who came out the victor. She told Tywin she made an abortifacent for Jeyne and that she is without child, but she demanded a house marriage for one of her children to a Lannister and Jaime offered her Joy--a bastard girl of some uncle of his. This pissed off Jeyne's mother and they rode out of Riverrun without so much as a look in his direction. It could be incredibly possible that she did NOT administer an abortifacent to Jeyne and was waiting to hear the "reward'. In any case, the Westerlings were pardoned and rode out safely from Riverrun under Jaime's command. I don't know how this plays into the future, but it is interesting to note that if she did have a child, particularly a son, the baby will have claim to Winterfell.

One more and I am done: Robb prepared for his trip to the Twins by designating a new King if he should fall. The name was never given, though I suspect it was Jon Snow that he named. His mother railed against the idea of Jon, but Robb said something like "I've made up my mind" and left it at that, then he told his men. This would give Snow the command of the North, remove his oath as a Sworn brother, and (with the new influx of arms, men, giants, and animals coming from beyond the wall) a rather rejuvenated army.

>>623378

Well, just because a dude doesn't have a name doesn't mean he's not a trained and practiced soldier vs. a dwarf who is a self-confessed suck-at-fighting-guy. There's some description where, while GRRM calls Tyrion's moves clumsy, he'll best an opponent in a few hacks with his axe. He probably killed like twenty dudes or more in the battle for King's Landing, and yeah he gets fucked up by Mandon Moore, but that wasn't really a combat situation, he basically "backstabbed" Tyrion in the face, which Tyrion very narrowly dodged and Podrick Payne saved him. But when he's on the boats, he's already killed five or six guys, then he's described as just cutting down dudes for a while until one of the boats breaks up.

>>623384
Was her hair dyed already in that scene? I remember when I first saw that pic, I thought, hey, Sansa's blonde. But her natural hair colour is auburn or whatever. No blonde Starks allowed.

>>623378
It was Mandon Moore who Gave Tyrion his scar trying to cut his head off, but was pushed into the sea by Podrick Payne of all people.

>>623384
How's this?

>>623362
I thought he said he got it from Valyria. It was the Arms of the Kraken chapter in AFFC where Asha tries to get elected Queen but Euron brings out this horn and says he has been to the smoking ruins of Valyria. In this time or re-awakening magic, it is entirely possible that magical things presumed lost are once again found--like the Horn to break the Wall.

One passage I found on a re-read was in the first book where Tyrion is going to the Wall, but since he is a dwarf, he cant set up camp or anything, so he goes off to read a dusty old book on loan from Winterfell. The passage spoke of the high iron content of dragon-bone and how the Valyrians prized it. Could dragonbone be the secret to making Valyrian Steel?

WALL OF BLACK TEXT

Oh right, I forgot one of my own theories, though it's not so much a theory as a thingy that could happen.

Bran will become one of the Three Heads of the Dragon by just warging out and controlling one. The Three-Eyed Crowis clearly bringing Bran north fo the wall to do some epic shit, but maybe it's not because of anything that's there now, but something that's GOING to be there. Dragons. With the crannogmen and Coldhands and mayhaps some wildlings, and perhaps the three-eyed crow himself, whatever form he takes, there to train him to be the best darn warg he can be, I'm sure he could control a dragon. And I don't know how smart an adult dragon is in GGRM's world, but if they're not as smart as a human, then one being controlled by a warg would be incredibly dangerous.

>>623441
Response that doesn't spoil anything for anyone!

Poor fanpic but I love the subject

>>623449
This is possible, yet again, might be too much deus-ex-machina for Martin. I like the idea that Bran has already warged into Hodor and controlled his actions. Sure warging into a dragon is nice, but imagine warging into Zombie Gregor Clegane Pretty neat thing to do for a crippled boy.

>>623437

Hey, I thought about this after, presumably you, posted this theory in another thread.

It is said that the Others hate fire and iron. I think Dragonbone might also be used to make dragonglass, or another weapon which works similarly against others to dragonglass. It's also possible that The Others will be fucking pissed as hell at dragons, since they are fire and iron, just like men. Dragons and men are linked in another way in A Clash of Kings: when Dany is trying to feed her dragons, she remembers that someone once told her that only men and dragons eat cooked meat. Probably nothing major, but for some reason it stuck out to me as humans and dragons being linked in some important way.

>>623461

While I don't think that's likely due to logistics (Bran being north of the wall and Zombie Gregor being in or around King's Landing, while the dragons will at some point end up at the wall, I'm sure... there Is that image Bran had in his first three-eyed crow dream, which we discussed in another thread. A stone night who opens his visor and black blood leaks out, I think that could very well mean Zombie Gregor, and that's the only image in that dream that doesn't seem to refer to anything happening around the time Bran has those visions. So he may indeed have some connection to Zombie Gregor, who I assume Bran could warg into since In assume Zombie Gregor will have severely diminished mental capacity, the same way he was able to warg into Hodor because he's a tard.

>>623462
Yea that was me that posted it. I would have to disagree about dragonglass being the same as dragonbone because the maesters all call dragonglass "obsidian". I am fairly sure dragonglass is just that, however there is a black obsidian candle that burns in Oldtown at the very end of AFFC. Maybe this isnt the obsidian we know. Or maybe when dragons appear here, obsidian can burn :) regardless, I find it incredibly odd that GRRM specifically notes that Tyrion is reading a passage about dragonbone and repeatedly remarks that the secret to making Valyrian steel is lost. And under Kings Landing, there is no shortage of dragonbone...

>>623478
As far as the stone giant who opens his visor and black blood pours out, it could very well be [/spoiler]Gregor[/spoiler], yet after advancing this idea previously, I see another connection: Littlefinger. This shadow he sees comes in this summary as Bran is comatose from his fall.
he sees Eddard plead with Robert while Sansa cries and Arya holds her secrets; over them all are two shadows, one dark as ash with the face of a hound and the other armored like the sun, golden and beautiful. Over both looms a giant of stone with blood pouring out of his visor. He looks across the Free Cities and the Dothraki Sea to Vaes Dothrak, and beyond to the Jade Sea to Asshai, where dragons stirred. Finally, he looks north and beholds the Wall and Jon and beyond that in the heart of winter something so terrible that it makes him cry.

Littlefinger wears the Mockingbird, yet his family uses the Titan of Braavos as a sigil--a stone giant. In a way, Littlefinger looms over all of the others

>>623509
The Littlefinger connection may have much more credence, because as you pointed out, Bran was seeing things that were happening at the time of his coma. Littlefinger convinced Lysa to poison Jon Arryn before any of this all happened. It seems as if the man with the face of a hound is Sandor, and the armored sun is Jaime (perhaps Oberyn, but I don't see him doing anything in the books at this time). The only one with influence over Sandor and Jaime would be Littlefinger, pulling strings and indirectly spilling so much poisonous blood across the realm. But thats just me, I guess.

Here's mine:
The valonquar from Maggy the frog's predicion about Cersei is not Tyrion. Valonquar means 'little brother' and Jaime was born just after Cersie, holding her toe. Jamie will be the downfall of Cersei in accordance with the dream for another thing that was mentioned: Tyrion is not a Lannister.

are the books in OP's pic in order from 1st to last? /lit/ seems to hold this series in high regard and i'm interested in reading them.

>>623579
Yes, they're in order.

>>623579
Yes, but as grandpa shows, Dance With Dragons is not out yet, and it's been five years.

>>623579
There are also some novellas written which occur about 100 years before a Game of Thrones called Dunk and Egg Tales. I only listened to audiobooks of 2 of them, but they do clarify some things in the series (such as the Blackfyre Rebellion and the rules of tourney and lordship). They made a nice companion to the series after I read through AFFC.

>>623579
My advice to anyone starting to read this series is don't let the names turn you off. I remember starting this series and feeling swamped by the thousands of names and hundreds of houses. (This isnt a spoiler, so no black text) Once Bran "fell', I was totally hooked because this series showed itself to be something more than a romantic fantasy. They way the characters in these books become knotted together makes you lose sympathy and hatred to almost every character.

>>623539
While it's possible, I just can't stomach the idea that Tyrion is not a Lannister. I gave my reasons here: >>622294

I do however think it is highly likely Jaime is the valonquar, and he brings the ultimate downfall of Cersei, which would be badass.

>>623462
>>623318
The Targaryen dragon has three heads. From the very start, with Aegon the Conqueror, this has been because the Targaryens used three dragons. Now Daenerys has three dragons, and if we go by the "secret Targaryens that end up ruling Westeros" prediction, then we can also assume there'll be three remaining Targaryens by the end of the series, Jon and a mystery third person.

What if each head of the Targaryen dragon, each Targaryen, is meant to control one of the three dragons in the war against the Others? Daenerys is most obviously using her dragons in her conquests, but if Jon is Azor Ahai as I suggested here: >>622730 then he's the second Targaryen head, and destined to defeat the Others, and what better way to do that than with a dragon?

This leaves our mystery third person to be revealed as the last remaining Targaryen and to use the last remaining dragon.

man i just bought this whole series today (from a ridiculously cute girl at the bookstore - bonus!). altho im concerned by the last 2 book's pictures now.

>>623663
A lot of people say this, but I just cannot garner any sympathy for the likes of Littlefinger or Cersei, who are arguably the main "villains" thus far in the series, plus all the minor villains like Joffrey, Gregor Clegane, Walder Frey, Lisa Arryn, Stannis Baratheon, Mirri Maz Duur, and all the minor guys who pissed off Arya enough to make it onto her death list.

The only real villain-turned-sympathetic hero I can think of is Jaime, the rest seem to be as undeniably evil and worthy of hate as you'd find in any other fantasy work. Please, someone show me how I'm wrong.

>>623751
How do you figure Stannis is a villain? He's misguided and stubborn, but he's hardly a villain.

>>623710
if the mystery person is Baby Aegon that either survived or was spirited away with an impostor in the bed, then we are looking for a 16 year old boy--though I think it is incredibly odd that the Targs would knowingly leave an innocent babe in his place to suffer a terrible fate along with the legitimate sister Rhaenys when they could just as easily take them both away. Then there is Edric Dayne who Arya meets in the company of the Brotherhood without Banners. His eyes are dark enough to almost be purple, yet he is 12. he does admit that Jon Snow is his "milk brother', yet I find it hard to believe that he is a 16 year old, so I pass on Edric..

Candidates for the Third Head for me have to be, in order:
Tyrion
none
none

I am now very interested in the "War of the 3 Queens" as some anon pointed out. We can name 3 as of the end of AFFC, Dany, Margeary, and Cersie, yet Asha Greyjoy sticks out a whole lot for me as does Jeyne Westerling if you can bite on the bait that she might actually be pregnant. Sansa might be a very distant third there, though

>>623746
Don't be too concerned. Fourth book is really good, but it just seems to be a bit of a letdown only because the third book was such an immense high point in the series. Book four is a necessary stepping stone to get to the second arc of the story. The only reason to be concerned is the fact that GRRM is not healthy and he's being slow about writing.

>>623751
I saw plenty of them. Sandor, for one, seems to have a very paternal relationship with Arya--even though he whomps her head. Varys, after explaining to Tyrion that he hates practitioners of magic after one chopped off his dick and threw it in a fire, gained a lot of sympathy from me, and I even began to understand his and Illyrio's game. Littlefinger is just badass chessmaster and though he does things I do not approve of, I get the sense that he knows what he is doing and is probably the most capable manipulator (Fuck Olenna, so she arranged to have Joff killed, Littlefinger is placing his pawns across the realm, not in a wine cup). Jamie has become likeable, though not forgiveable, I do like his change. At times, I even feel for Cersei. I also feel much sympathy for Jorah...dude has no luck with women. Walder Frey might be a dick, but it was at the planning of Tywin, who I think was by far, the worst of the bunch here. I even sympathize with newcomer Doran Martell's plot.

>>623771

Awesome! Thanks man. I'm starting book 1 now. Stoked.

[spoilers]Did it work?[/spoilers]

>>623798
What do?

>>623771
I look at the fourth book as the depressed lull of the real after the Red Wedding, the state of the realm, the growing animosity between Highgarden and the Rock, the seemingly important devolution of Arya into a feral assassin as well as the repentance of Sandor, the futility of honor in this time as represented by Brienne, the metamorphosis of Sansa from a lady of the court to a willing confidant of Littlefinger, the Clash of the Wall, the rise of the Iron Isles, Sam's ultimate use as a witness to the rebirth of magic in Oldtown and the plots of Alleras--Sarella, backwards, a Sand Sanke of Dorne, and the very last sentence that ties up the first chapter in AFFC, ominously.

TL;DR--What AFFC lacks in action, it makes up for in plot.

>>623783
Yeah but here's the thing: neither Sandor nor Varys are really portrayed as villains from the beginning.

Sandor seems like an asshole, especially after killing Micah, but he's also the one who saves Loras Tyrell and sticks up for Sansa repeatedly. He explains his rationale for being such an asshole extremely early on in the series and it's made very clear he's just a man doing a job.

Varys is initially fronted as someone who just should not be trusted, but he actually turns out to be one of the most honest and reliable allies in the series, giving real, practical advice to Eddard that could've saved his life if Joffrey wasn't a total douchebag. Plus he had the most benevolent, understandable motivation of all of the court manipulators - peace for the realm, which could only be achieved by having the stability of one undisputed king, even if that king was a fat unlikeable drunk.

The point I was trying to get across was that a lot of people paint this series as one with no areas of black and white and tons of sympathetic characters that commit villainous acts, and while that latter part may be true, the series also has many cut-and-dry pure evil villains as well.

Did it work?

>>623746
My third book, ASOS, depicts some funeral sadness on a river. Don't worry about this. When you start reading ASOS, you'll realize that this was inevitable and it doesn't give away anything important. AFFC for me was a very plain cover.

>>623384
Yes, wrong hair color. But it doesn't matter. I like it better than the pic in >>623424 if only for the humanity in her face. Quoted pic is prettier, but it was commissioned for a calendar. The other pic was from a fan. Your fangirl pointless obsessions about hair color don't matter much.

>>623767
I think Stannis falls into the category of reluctant antagonist. Maybe not really a villain, and not really entirely evil either, but he makes bad choices that result in villainous acts and ends up being an enemy to the protagonists as a result. It's mostly not even his fault due to Melisandre influencing him, but he consciously makes the decision to sacrifice children and kill his own brother.

The whole irony here is that his entire crusade is driven by the fact that he believes he is the rightful heir, which is nonsense. Even though Joffrey is not Robert's trueborn son, none of the Baratheons have a rightful claim to the throne to begin with as long as Daenerys and the other, as of yet possible unrevealed Targaryens, are alive.

>>623803
Agreeing with you on Sandor and especially Varys. I just see it as the things I thought were villainous became less so when I saw things through the eyes of the likes of Jamie and Cersei. Maybe I could paint people like Rorge and Biter, or anyone from the Bloody Mummers as total villains because it seems they want to do more than kill people. They like torture and rape, yet aside from torture and rape, they are little different than the Brotherhood without Banners, both factions who don't take sides so much as satisfy their own causes.[/spoiler] I am not saying that there aren't good guys and bad guys, all I am saying is that the deeper in you get, all you see are shades of grey. All understandable human emotions and completely unlike things in most fantasy novels like in LOTR where you have Orcs and Sauron whose only purpose is to "do evil".

>>623807
I thought she dyed her hair black to be known as Alayne by the time she made the snow castle. If so, the first picture is more correct.

>>623770
Why three queens? Why not five? Daenerys Targaryen, Sansa Stark, Margaery Tyrell, Asha Greyjoy, and Jeyne Westerling?

All of them have some kind of claim over some kind of throne, each legitimate. I guess Myrcella Baratheon is also a possibility.

While I don't think such a conflict would escalate to the point of the War of the Five Kings, it seems extremely likely these five or six characters will have big parts to play in the next three books.

>>623839


Littlefinger calls it the War of Three Queens because, I assume, that while he knows of more women who could be 'queens', only three will be major contenders. Who they are, I don't know. I don't think Sansa or Dany will be one of them, Sansa's too busy as undercover pedobait and Dany is consolidating her power or whatever.

>>623837
Didn't she dye her hair lighter when she became Alayne? Starks are known for dark hair. I thought she dyed it reddish, or at least light-brown. Correct me if I'm wrong, it's been a while since I've read Feast.

>>623807
I thought she dyed her hair black to be known as Alayne by the time she made the snow castle. If so, the first picture is more correct.

>>623820
Agreed 100%, though Aegon the conqueror was not a true king either since all he really did was burn up some people with dragons, force Torrhen to kneel, and ignore Dorne. Yet if there is a Targaryen, that person should have more claim to the throne than a Baratheon, and the last KNOWN ones are Dany and some 102 year old geezer from the wall who died on a ship trek to Oldtown. I really think the events at Summerhall that were so tragic need to be illuminated, what happened at the Tower of Joy when Eddard and Howland arrived, the Doom of Valyria, and the meaning of the Red Comet need to be revealed.

>>623829
That nebulousness is the crux of the series. People dismiss ASOIAF because it's fantasy, and then again because it's long (see thread), and then again because the characters are actually *gasp* developing.

But it's the human element in all form throughout all four books that makes it as interesting as it is. There are no cardboard cutouts. Even the random lords you see for two pages have a personality. From high lords to lowly companies and pushed aside nobility, the all have a voice. That's the charm of the series. It's what makes you coming back. GRRM is a fat lazy fuck but he knows how to write, and he knows people.

>>623839
On my re-read so I can't even answer that, but I can tell you that maybe Littlefinger is only directly involved with 3 of them: Cersei, Margeary, and possibly Dany if the Barristan-is-my-spy theory is true. He may not know about Dorne's plot or the importance of Jeyne Westerling at all. A significant bastard can't be every fucking where /y'know ;p

>>623853

I don't think the true meaning of the red comet, if there is any, needs to be revealed. It seems to me that GRRM put it in there to show how everyone will take something ambiguous and say it reflects their own desires. It's both a method for characterization and showing how his world works. Pretty much every major organization/group assigns their own meaning to the comet. It is probably just a rock flying through space, but all fancied up and hugenormous in ASIAF world fashion, the same way their planet is on some weird wobbling axis or some shit so the seasons are not of regular length. Though I wonder if they are even on a planet that corresponds to how real life planets work, and it's literally something the people of old thought Earth was.

>>623858
And yes, my keyboard is shit and letters went amiss. "They", etc. You can figure it out.

>>623858
Do we know how far through A Dance he's gotten finished yet? I know there are occasional update but I don't really follow them.

>>623867
last time he gave a definite number was 1362 pages in the manuscript, and that was a few months ago.
but he's been working on writing the show, too, so I don't know how far he's gotten, but he says on his blog he's making more progress.

>>623863
I don't think a planet that has seasons that directly align to wars can be explained by science.

>>623873
So basically its like Episode 3 and never coming out. :(

Martin's been writing an episode of the TV show. For an unfinished series.

And editing anthologies.

And following the NFL draft

And going to cons.

And advertising RPG miniatures no one uses.

He doesn't care about you, the reader. He's lazy and convinced his fat ass won't die. He writes great books and is a shit human being. No regard to the people that have made him well known. Then again, he didn't get well known till he was what, in his 50s? His life was spent doing "Beauty and the Beast" and irrelevant short stories. No one cared. Now we do. And he trolls us for our sins, our forgetfulness.

In short, GRRM is an asshole.

>>623858
Aye. I never gave Beric Dondarrion the first thought when I read about Eddard telling him to catch Gregor and fix shit for the small folk, yet he becomes a major player in the hearts of the common folk and becomes, for lack of a better term, their undying hope. The way people are portrayed here is so much more believeable. I still get hang ups when I read a book where the "bad guy wants power". I mean what the fuck is that saying? Someone brought up LOTR here and I agree. So you have a bad guy who wants to rule everyone...then what? In these books, it is clear that most of them are defending their families (Cersei and Cat), defending their honor (Eddard, Stannis and Davos and to a lesser degree, Jamie), defending the world (Jon) or their lands (Robb), revenge and rights (Doran and Dany) and eventually defending their faith (Sparrow, Meribald, Melisandre, Thoros, Quiet Man, Drowned Man, The Wildlings). All the while, the people that pay the blood price are the small folk who are starting to hate everyone. Everybody has a card on the table.

We might end up having to wait until 2020 or later for the series to be fully resolved, which is just fucking depressing.

>>623899

"Someone once said, as we sin, so do we sow. Tell me then, Lord Eddard. Why is it always the innocents who suffer most, when you high lords play your game of thrones?" - Varys

Man, Game of Thrones becomes hugely depressing once you've read all the subsequent books.

>>623863
Then why are there suddenly dragons again, or Others, or the spells of the pyromancers working again, or the funeral rites of the Red Priest bringing back life again, or the Direwolves who havent been seen for centuries, or Giants and Mammoths, or Shadowbabies, or any of these things that everyone took as old wives tales that started happening in concert with the appearance of this red comet? It all seems to be so much coincidence that circumstantial evidence points to the comet. Every place in GRRMs world makes note of it and adopt it as their own sign. Even if it can be dismissed as coincidence, I find it strange that all of these things are happening right now.

>>623914
My favorite quote was from the first book when Bran asks Eddard something like 'Can you be brave if you are afraid'? And Eddard replies 'That's the only time you can be brave'.

>>623924
Eddard has so many great quotes that are referenced in later books, it's awesome.

Another incredibly depressing part:

"Let me tell you something about wolves, child. When winter comes and the harsh winds blow, the lone wolf dies, but the pack survives." - Eddard

"You were wrong, daddy. The pack died, but I, the lone wolf, survived. YOUUUU WEERRRREEE WRROONNNNGGG" - Arya

>>623873
It has been said that his 4th book was so long it needed to be divided into regions versus time line. I think this is why AFFC has such a different feel than the other books. The 5th book, is turning into a very drawn out and re-edited (peobably because now he has too many fucking balls in the air juggling act) and re-written copy. GRRM often mentioned the Mereenese knot that he cornered himself into and many fans believe that it is the idea that Dany has no need to leave the East because she is already a Queen there.

>>623937
I really hope Arya grows up into a fucking valkyrie level asskicker that just runs around fucking everybody's shit up.

>>623946

The only problem there is that Valkyries don't really fight. :\

>>623961
I couldn't think of another female generalization of asskickery. :\

>>623946
In the first book, when Eddard discovers Arya's Needle, he mentions how his sister Lyanna was a fighter as well. In Meera's Story of the Knight of the Laughing Tree, Lyanna repulses squires that are attacking Howland Reed, then dons a suit of armor to beat the knights who squired them in tourney. Later, all they find of the KNight of the Laughing Tree is the shield hung from a tree. Rhaegar goes in search of this knight, finds her, then falls in love with her to have a bastard son named Jon Snow who goes to the Wall to defend the real against the Others, meets up with Danerys who uses dragons to roast the Others, falls in love with her (his half-sister) and meets up with Tyrion, (their older brother) to reclaim the realm. [/spoylerz]

>>623971

Amazon is a good one.

>>623971
Amazons?

>>623982
>>623983
Amazon mind. That works though.

>>623978
This is becoming believable to me.

>>623978

Man, just if we compile the theory into all the known parts thus far:

Boy is raised and trained by royal knights who teach him the value of fairness and justice. To further his training and make something of his life, he willingly accepts a grueling and dangerous job far away from home. Despite the harsh demands of his new lifestyle and the threat of bitter antagonists that fear and resent him, he makes full use of both his physical prowess and force of character to win over his enemies and succeed. Eventually he becomes the leader after proving his valor multiple times. Unwittingly he stumbles into an ancient enemy that has just awakened and is now gathering to destroy all of mankind. Despite a lack of allies and impossible odds, he holds faith and fights to the end, and gets saved just in time. He makes new allies and in an epic twist, discovers he is the last of an ancient lineage and the rightful heir to a centuries-old throne. He meets a powerful ally that he falls in love with, and together they defeat the ancient evil and bring peace and fair rule back to a war-torn land after years of strife.

I mean, fuck, how epic is that shit? This is like some Anakin Skywalker level shit going on here. Fuck.

>>624009
And that's just one part of the story. But yes, it fits into the Lego monster of Westeros.

what a pleasant thread

>>623937


>"You were wrong, daddy. The pack died, but I, the lone wolf, survived. YOUUUU WEERRRREEE WRROONNNNGGG" - Arya

aww man nearlly brought a tear to my eye remembering arya's chapters.

whats going to suck in the next book is that we dont get no new ayra or sandor related chapters, as a dance with dragons is set at the same time as a feast for crow's except with the other characters, tyrion, jon, davos, dany ect.

On a completely unrelated note: could Cersei be pregnant? It's mentioned her dresses got shrunk by the washerwomen, and she's wearing a dress that's too tight at the end of AFFC.

Or it could be because she's drinking so much.

>>624447
I thought Lancel was very careful to "spill his seed on her belly".

Gotta love the refrain that's humming thru Jaime's brain about Cersei's bedmates in AFOC, though.

>>624196

I heard that GRRM said that there will be some Arya chapters in ADWD, because there weren't that many in AFFC. And since she's pretty much alone in regards to other major characters, her chapters' chronology don't matter as much.

>>624865
Well, pulling out isn't exactly 100% effective. Though she could be taking whatever their contraceptives are, it might be hard for her to obtain them.

>>624447

i think it's more representative of how she feels like she is becoming more and more like robert, drinking and eating especially, and vanity.

>>625598
MmMmMm Lemon cakes and spiced wine!