/lit/ - Literature

>Is history only to be preserved by the written word?

Not even then.

>>6200144
For some reasom that I neither approve of nor completely underetand, this makes me angrier at them than their cruelty to human beings. Thanks for reminding me, asshole, it's 7:43 in the morning and I already loathe myself.

>A rampage by sledgehammer-wielding Islamic State militants in an Iraqi museum has been compared to "the tearing down of the Colosseum brick by brick".

>Priceless ancient Assyrian relics and other artefacts are seen being smashed to pieces in a Mosul museum in a video released by Islamic State.

>The video also shows the jihadists using a jackhammer to deface an imposing granite Assyrian winged bull at Mosul's Nergal Gate.

At least they reproduced the works on video and broadcast them worldwide before they ruined the things. Apparently a thing can be haram, but a picture of a thing cannot.

Fuck these people are dumb.

This only further reinforces my belief that ISIS is a bunch of immature children. This is like those kids who smash people's mail boxes for the le epic trollz

Fucking savages. They'll get theirs.

They're literally trying to troll everyone into hating them and I don't get why.

>>6200204
They need to meet the West in battle so they can bring about the apocalypse. The Atlantic had a pretty good article about it last month.

>>6200220
But that's extremely silly, as they wouldn't stand a chance against any western nation's army. And if there's one thing they know, it's to pick their fights, even if it occasionally goes wrong, like it did in Kobane.

>>6200232
They think God will come down out of Heaven and help them.

You're familiar with millennialist Christians? ISIS are the Muslim version of those guys.

>>6200157
Sorry anon, I feel exactly the same.

>>6200144
>the religion of peace

>>6200236
>You're familiar with millennialist Christians?
Yeah well, at least those people believe they have the US armed forces and the IDF on their side.

>>6200144
And nothing of value was lost.

typical religion

oh
oh no
.

>>6200285
Typical ABRAHAMIC religion. Not all religions include explicit orders to destroy idols or hate everyone who does better than you.

>>6200294
Typical ISLAM. Every major advance in science and mathematics has been made by a Christian. Most other religions are shitty emotionally charged cults that place no value on intellectualism.

>muh pagan morality
>me da strongest, me pillage da countryside, ooga booga, rape da women

>>6200285
>>6200294
Yeah, because no atheist has ever done shit like this, am I right?

>>6200310
Or, I don't know, the Cultural Revolution in China when 2000 years of accumulated history was purposefully obliterated by a self-proclaimed atheist regime? Literally the worst act of vandalism in history.

It's sad that they destroyed all that stuff, but since they are Middle Eastern artifacts, they are culturally worth a lot less than European artifacts so it doesn't matter nearly as much.

If something like that happened in the Vatican Museums it would be absolutely terrible...so much so that it is hard to even put it to words.

>>6200310
>implying atheism isn't a just the 4rth abrahamic faith, simply abstracting god into oblivion while maintaining the arrogant absolutism and self righteous evangelicalism.

>>6200318
>so it doesn't matter nearly as much.
goddamn it son

>>6200318
Considering what's happened in the modern middle east, I'm surprised the stuff lasted this long already.

>>6200294
>Buddhists never hurt anybody!
Kektron 2000

>>6200305
Try doing long division with Roman Numerals.

>>6200318
> they are culturally worth a lot less than European artifacts
I'm pretty eurocentric when it comes to history but even I don't agree with this

>>6200323
I've had this idea before, too, or at least snippets of it. Any published works that share the same opinion (or better yet, any responses to it)?

I watched TV for the first time in a month and it was the episode of Moral Orel where the townspeople kill his dog that parallels jesus.

>>6200333
Never even implied that. Any religion can be assholes. Abrahamism however specifically requires it.

>>6200342
Spend enough time on /lit/ and you will find people saying the same.

>>6200232
Despite being crazy, they are very competent combatants. Furthermore if the West took serious action in the Middle East, their numbers would intensify to nightmare. This latter point is probably something they have prominently in mind, their leaders are not fools.

>>6200331
Yeah, that is true. The National Museum of Iraq got completely gutted back in 2003.
>>6200337
If terrorists knocked over and destroyed Michelangelo's statue of David, a lot more people would be angry about that than about all the statues destroyed in Mosul combined.

>>6200336
Notice I said MAJOR advance. Division algorithms and numeral systems are fucking trivial. Division algorithms are so trivial that even a system as fucked up as the one they used in ancient China could handle it, and China has contributed even less to mathematics than Arabia.

>>6200144
Unacceptable but understandable behavior. If you destroy history then your regime and your vision are as legitimate as anyone elses's.

>>6200144
>written word

I thought they burned a library of ancient texts too

>>6200350
The opinions of the public do not reflect the cultural importance of something.

>>6200362
>>6200362
>If you destroy history then your regime and your vision are as legitimate as anyone elses's.
They did it for religious reasons.

>>6200365
Yeah, but that was a couple of days ago so it's forgotten already.

>>6200342
>>6200323
You're honestly suggesting that people put forward the idea that atheism is a religion?

>>6200367
I don't disagree with you, but I still stand by my previous statements.

>>6200375
Fair enough. And I'll stick with my previous statements too.

>>6200368
Whether or not they were Islamic, they'd probably still do it. Communist extremists did the same thing, The Fourth Crusade did the same thing and for non-religion reasons. Nazis did the same thing. Destruction of art is an expression of a particular cultural hostility that prospers under peculiar conditions.

>>6200375
>>6200382
Peace in our time.

>>6200368
They claimed it was for religious reasons, you meant.

>>6200371
Yeah, pretty frequently. Not literally a religion, mind you. Just an analogue for it. You know, blind acceptance of doctrine, rabid defense of its tenets and high-ranking members.

A collective community surrounding a belief relating to the afterlife, the nature of the soul, God, other metaphysical stuff. It's almost like how nihilism is still a philosophy.

>>6200348
>they are very competent combatants
Most of their successes are against demoralized sunni iraqis and minor jihadi militias in Syria. Against actual competent fighters, like PYD and Pesh Merga, they don't stand a chance.

Notice how all the ones destroying these priceless artifacts are men. Just more male privilege in action.

>>6200444
Oh well, Isam is pretty much Male Privilege: The Religion.

>>6200144
Kek. Are these guys the /b/ of the islamic radicals?

>>6200453
Ugh, don't be such a fucking racist. The problem is they are MALE, not that they are Muslim.

>>6200407
>Yeah, pretty frequently. Not literally a religion, mind you. Just an analogue for it. You know, blind acceptance of doctrine, rabid defense of its tenets and high-ranking members.
>A collective community surrounding a belief relating to the afterlife, the nature of the soul, God, other metaphysical stuff. It's almost like how nihilism is still a philosophy.
people are spooky no matter where. That's like saying "there's fat Christians, therefore Christianity is objectively bad". Your argument is just a way to emphasize something that cannot be emphasized. You're projecting individual qualities onto the group, individual qualities that are not associated with the group. You're an intellectual hack. Fuck you

>>6200453
and Christianity and Judaism aren't?

>>6200461
HEY. You don't know if they're male. They might identify as an omnitransqueerkin.

Just how fucking stupid are these people? A global Caliphate? Do they not understand that the West has millions of men under arms and spends hundreds of billions of dollars every year on advanced weaponry?

>>6200461
>all males behave the same way, regardless of wether they're feminists or jihadis
>all muslims are the same race
Wow, you managed to be racist and sexist in a statement you consider to be directed against racism and sexism, are you proud of yourself?

>>6200469
Not to the same extent, as should be evident from looking at gender relations in those communities compared to the muslim world. Take for example the christian take on seeing things that cause sinful thoughts: the answer is to fucking stab your own eye. Not very friendly, yes, but still a lot more balanced than th islamic solution of banning the object of desire, the female body, from being visible.
All abrahamic religions are patriarchal as fuck though.

>>6200476
LOL you can't be sexist against men, because MEN are the sexists. There's no such thing as a male feminist. No matter how much men apologize they can never cleanse themselves of their inborn privilege.

>>6200144
Thread got deleted yesterday, while ''analytic vs continental'' threads thrive everyday. Mods are shit.

Anyways, on point, luckily they filmed them all, and I'll be damned if they didn't document the findings precisely already. Some of the statues had iron wiring in them for reincorcement, so they had been touched already, but if anyone knows whether most of them were completely unaltered, I'd love to know, because they looked so incredibly detailed and pristine for Mesopotamian art.

Pic related, it's not the first time some morons went ape shit over iconoclastic MUH GOD DUN WAN IT!

Luckily, we can replicate them exactly, so the sentimental value may be lost, the actual art as an object of study won't be.

Why post this, anon? Do you want to incite Islamophobia?

>>6200503
>LOL you can't be sexist against men, because MEN are the sexists
Wait, are you saying men aren't negatively affected by patriarchal structures? Or thar women don't participate in those structures?
>There's no such thing as a male feminist
Only if you adhere to patriarchal definitions of male, which also happens to be at least half the cause of misogyny.
>No matter how much men apologize they can never cleanse themselves of their inborn privilege.
As if privilege was something anyone would want to cleanse themselves of.
yes I know you're baiting with your funny little tumblr strawman, congratulations, didn't this get old at least two years ago?

>>6200526
He's baiting you, mate. don't bother responding. He's throwing all the tumblr clichés at you.

>>6200526
Pure ideology
>I consciously realize this is just make-believe retardation, but I still must engage with it due to my unconscious accepting it as sincere.

>>6200532
Look, this isn't about him, it's about the unfortunate confusion that persists on both sides in these matters, of which such baiting is merely an expression.
Also, it's always interesting to see how far somewill will take it.

>>6200144
As a buddhist I'm more than okay with people blowing up buddhas. It improves the buddhism of the statue.

In total fact the items can be remade almost exactly the same, and they were not the only artifacts form that time.

But still, there is something very important about an artifact. Looking at an object and understanding that someone hundreds of years ago made that object with love and reverence, full of the things they believed then; it reminds you of a lot of human stuff you are not confronted with on a normal basis.

Its fine for Muslims to not want idols of worship. but lock them away or something for historians. Nobody is going to pray to them.

Not gonna lie it makes me really mad.

Especially how retarded they are all acting. Not even able to break the statues or knock them over.
In some way it makes me laugh seeing these retards stumbling trying to look cool by ruining something far more impressive than anything they will ever be a part of.

>>6200542
>tfw someone baiting you suddenly gets real and you two are the only two left in the thread keeping it open in a tab and refreshing every now and then for way way too long.

Make me want to re-watch Agora, which is basically this with ancient Christians in.
Fuck your Abrahamic religions.

>>6200492
>th islamic solution of banning the object of desire

The arab and cultural middle eastern mentality you mean.

>>6200596
That's a pretty decent flick.

>>6200603
The Bonfire of Vanities was in Italy.

>>6200384
I like how you left out the destruction of native-american, african and other colonized-by-anglos cultures from your post.

>>6200563
>Its fine for Muslims to not want idols of worship.

Don't comflate 'muslim' with ISIS where instead it very rightly should say ISIS in that sentence. Your sentiment (and indeed everyones anger here) should be against ISIS.

As many have pointed out the cultural defamation and destruction of objects has extended throughout history and throughout regimes from Nazis, communists, religious, or political etc. Many muslims are fine with these things and recognise their cultural value and worth. If not, a lot of these artifacts would have been destructed a long time prior during all those thousand+ years of Islamic rule previous where they (the statues/artifacts) existed much the same.

>>6200603
Now THAT is racist. Also, look at the middle east in the 60s, hardly any veiled women anywhere. What brought the veil back was a religious revival that happened both in the arab world and, at the beginning, to a much freater degree in the non-arab countries Iran, Afghanistan and Pakistan.

Idiots, by destroying the past they are making possible a new beggining for humanity.
Once art has reached its maximum potential it must all be destroyed so the process can start again or else we will enter a neverending process of pointless experimentation.
You are doing gods work ISIS

>>6200609
Are you comparing what happened when a psychotic monk took over a town for a year or so to what happened when islam took over huge swaths of land for centuries? And using that flawed equation tomake a point about two religions being one and the same, which no one in either religion, nor people who had sufficient contact with members of both, would ever agree with?

>>6200563
what dude

>>6200621
Thus forgetting our mistakes in the process making it inevitable that we will repeat them again.
Though, it's not like we don't repeat ourselves now because no one likes history or even reads, and if they do read then it's just cheap fiction.

>>6200144
Movin to burkino faso, doin some philosophy ta! Duppa duppa count faso kino burgadaleh burgadaleh whatcha doin. Sup, no. No. NO!!!! Blazildore!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! B&n

>>6200617
Its a Muslim practice. Its in the quran, i've got a copy here sitting beside me.

Its a Muslim issue.
Different Muslim states have dealt with it differently.

Yes people throughout history have done it for various reasons. But its of particular issue in the Muslim faith,

>>6200618

>>6200618
>ook at the middle east in the 60s, hardly any veiled women anywhere.

Where's your sources for this? As much as I can recall yes there were many 'liberal' women in places in the middle east but this was more tied into the economic situation of them (i.e. middle class + above) and the political - I consent to you that you are correct about the religious revival. As for when I said 'arab and middle eastern mentality' no time frame was expressed. Mentalities change over time and there very much is that mentality in those regions of the world right now (and they existed prior). I should have extended my quote properly to include '', the female body, from being visible.'' because I know I've ruined it and taken it out of context.

What a bunch of glorious, egoist nihilists.

These guys will have a bigger spot in history than any of us

>>6200621

If only they destroyed all this post modernist trash instead.

>>6200651
>Its a Muslim practice

It's not a 'practice' per se. The Qu'ran forbids the worship of idols. The passionate and frenzied smashing of such things doesn't make it an obligation by any muslim though specially when such objects have long since passed from the realm of religious object to cultural artifact from a past age since dead and studied only archaeological and historically.

As I said if it was such a grand obligation then during all those thousand + years of 'Islamic' rule in the are much more cultural destruction would have taken place over those time periods and throughout the 'islamic' world as you rightly said ''Yes people throughout history have done it for various reasons''

But I fail to see how it is an obligation on a Muslim. And don't even say 'well Muhammad did it and muslims should emulate him'' the contexts were very different - active idols worshipped vs dusty cultural artifacts in a museum or otherwise in the landscape which have long passed out of contemporary religious significance.

>>6200655
Well you said it, there's this revival, and it's happening throughout the muslim world, from Istanbul to Waziristan. To say that this is due to regional culture amounts to stating that those people are all the same, when there really is just one thing they do have in common: islam.

>>6200503
b8

>>6200659
>egoist nihilists
Isn't that an oxymoron?

>>6200646
Mistakes are a necessary consequence of there being a correct and an incorrect way of doing the things. Not daring to carry out the Repetition because you are afraid of mistakes is weakness.
History is preserved in cultural artifacts, you dont need the whole population to engage in the contemplation of these artifacts for them to make their effect, just the people who matter, those who take the lead. But as long as leaders look back in the past and say "all is done, I cant engage sincerely in any path" there will be no progress, all that will be left will be continuous reconstruction, revision and rearrengement of old styles.

>>6200671
Post modernism is a consequence of what precedes post modernism, if you destroy postmodernism but you dont destroy what precedes it, then postmodernism will happen again. If you love the roots you must uproot the whole of the tradition to produce the possibility of beauty again

Christianity also forbids the worship of idols, so why are there statues of Jesus hanging in every church?

>>6200697
Because noone worships the statues of jesus, they are there as decoration

>>6200365
I didn't even hear about this. Holy hell, these people deserve every kind of cruel and unusual punishment.

>>6200697

The TLDR story from the quran is:

>after garden of eden some of the fist gens of men had first hand accounts with divine shit
>some of the greater men were very holy and knew a lot
>when they died people made statues in their honor
>fast forward a bunch of time people are worshiping the statues as gods, and the newer statues of other men have now become reminders
>fast forward more, like a porn addiction, idol worship started off reasonable and suddenly people are worshiping horse statues and all this weird shit. burning shit as offerings and its no good.
>cant have that
>smashy smashy
>only worship god
>not allowed to envision god because humans cant picture it
>just write things really nice from now on.


Extreme Muslims have taken this to mean no pictures at all.

>>6200144
Is it just me or has Islam waged a 1500 year long war on other cultures and religion?

Just look at what is happening in Africa. They are literally trying to destroy any remnants of other ways of life. It's a war waged of centuries and slowly making its way.

http://www.theatlantic.com/features/archive/2015/02/what-isis-really-wants/384980/

Everybody should read this.

>>6200722
Yeah, pretty much. Sometimes they have found a more reasonable way of dealing with other cultures, but jihad appears to be the norm, as anyone aquainted with the life of Muad'dib will know.

>>6200144
But how was such a valuable museum left unguarded in the face of such a threat? Or has the city it's located in been controlled by the militants for some time now?

>>6200722
Christianity did the same though, didn't they? As soon as you have an infallible word telling you you're greater than the rest, you can demolish everything along your path with satisfaction and a clean conscience.
But the Qur'an is really, and I mean really, full of hateful things about idolators, so in that sense, at least Christian doctrine allows for the ''turn the other cheek'' interpretation, whereas the Qur'an just says ''if you are oppressed or attacked, capture and kill them wherever you find them''
>>6200756
>But how was such a valuable museum left unguarded in the face of such a threat?

You would rather guard a museum and face ISIL than having some statues destroyed with your life intact?

It's funny, though, because Turkey actually sent troops into ISIL threatened terriroty to relocate an ancient Ottoman tomb.

>>6200634
What happened when Catholics took over the New World?

>>6200774
>Christianity did the same though, didn't they? As soon as you have an infallible word telling you you're greater than the rest, you can demolish everything along your path with satisfaction and a clean conscience
Wow you dont know anything about history, do you? Homework: find out how many years after Christ the religion was first spread by the sword. There are different answers to that, but whichever you prefer, it will be a good approximation to the difference between christianity and islam.

>>6200774
The Bible was hardly the sole (or perhaps even the main) basis of Christianity until the advent of Protestantism.

>>6200795
>infallible word
Christianity has no infallible words.

>>6200238
Agreed

>kill people
>I don't know these people, there will always be more of them
>break statues from 1000 years ago
>there won't be any more of those

>>6200795
>find out how many years after Christ the religion was first spread by the sword.

I'd say The Battle Of The Milvian Bridge so...three centuries, give or take.

>>6200359
>Division algorithms and numeral systems are fucking trivial.
topkek

>>6200220
Is that what they say? Is there an ISIS manifesto or something where they explain exactly why they must admiral ackbar?

>>6200792
Mostly genocide and robbery and rape, but one or two statues may have gotten smashed along the way, too. Guess what I'm getting at is that the motivation of the conquistadores wasn't primarily, or even prominently religious.

>>6200167
>>6200167
>At least they reproduced the works on video and broadcast them worldwide before they ruined the things. Apparently a thing can be haram, but a picture of a thing cannot.
>
>Fuck these people are dumb.

no, a picture of a thing is far more dangerous, it can lead to greater falsification

>>6200305
That isn't true and you know it

>>6200359
Your post number is in Arabic numerals

no love for the crusader castles bombed by US forces though or all the shit in baghdad destroyed by marines

fuckin isis!!!

>>6200800
Yeah I was quoting another anon but thank you.
>>6200804
That hardly qualifies, as the battle wasn't fought to spread a religion, or even in the name of that religion. Still, 300 years of carnage works as a first approximation to the difference.

>>6200807
>one or two statues
C'mon, man.

> Guess what I'm getting at is that the motivation of the conquistadores wasn't primarily, or even prominently religious.
Then maybe you should look at the Roam Emperors who totaled numerous pagan temples and art.

>>6200821
>as the battle wasn't fought to spread a religion, or even in the name of that religion.

>or even in the name of that religion.

Except it totally was. Constantine even claimes that Jesus spoke to him in a dream before the battle and showed him a cross with "in hoc signo vinces" (with this symbol you shall win) inscribed on it.

>>6200828
that just means that christ would grant him victory not that he would spread the religion after taking rome

>>6200833
>not that he would spread the religion after taking rome

But that's exactly what Constantine did once he became emperor.

>>6200795
I do know a fair bit about history, and the time christianity started being spread by the sword, was the time it actually became a religion of any importance. But I don't see what this has to do with my statement of destruction in the name of iconoclasm and christianity. For instance, my post >>6200514 has a great example of it. Christians burned plenty during the crusades as well. They destroyed Mayan and Incan civilization as well. It's not a question of who's worse or better, I think the main obstacle the world faces today is the acceptance that we're all terrible people, who have done terrible things countless ammounts of times, but from what I've seen in the WWII legacy of historiography, it's still too hard for people to write something that might not put mommy, daddy, granny, gramps, or country in a bad light, so we point our fingers at others and say how terrible they are without having to look at ourselves. A fun fact to back this up: 100bln dollars a year in international weapons trade, biggest producers: America, Canada, Israel and other ''enlightened'' finger pointing countries (Russia too, but I figured if I'd mentioned it before I'd get some >Russia >enlightened shit or something. Basically, we sell them the weapons, then tell ourselves how aweful they are for using them, and how much better we are for not doing so.

>>6200797
Which is why I put the ''at least'' there. It's never clever to solely look at doctrine when judging the acts of a religious power, their doctrine usually serves as a nice cover for whatever they're up to anyways, I'm saying that in the justification of acts, religion gets used as a great excuse, regardless of what the Holy Word of that religion says, and christiniaty has had its fair share of abuse of power by extremist idiots, just like Islam has. Which isn't to say they're identical, but what do you expect from a couple of hundred words analysis.

>>6200822
>Then maybe you should look at the Roam Emperors who totaled numerous pagan temples and art.
Ok, now we're going back to times when people had no concept of treasuring cultural goods whatsoever and would use stuff we'd pjt in a museum as raw material for building new stuff.
Also, the point about the Bonfire of Vanities was originally about a different approach to sinful images, particularly sexual ones, right?

Yes we get it, Christians did bad shit too. The main difference is that they did that centuries ago while the kebabs are doing it NOW. I'd say that's a little more relevant.

>>6200840
yeah but that doesn't mean he waged war specifically to spread his religion. what steps did he take that made you think he did?

I find absolutely barbaric and disgusting. I can deal with loss of life, but for knowledge to be destroyed, just for the sake of it is beyond me.
I was quite angry when I found out about this, and it honestly saddens me. It is just unnecessary destruction of a cultural heritage of several civilisations, when really at the end of the day, they really are priceless.

>tfw you will never go to Iraq with ΟΥΤΙΣ and kill ISIS jihadis by day and discuss literature and philosophy by night
I just want to embrace true masculinity with a gun in one hand and a book in the other. gay sex would be just a comfy bonus

>>6200845
>Ok, now we're going back to times when people had no concept of treasuring cultural goods

>>6200843
>the crusades
Which were a) a defensive campaign, not that any of what happened was justifiable, and b) ONE THOUSAND AND NINETY YEARS AFTER CHRIST. If you don't think that matters, think again, think harder.
>>6200840
He didn't want to become emperor because he wanted to spread the religion, though, so his power grab can hardly be described as a holy war. I'd even go as far as saying the same holds true of Charlemagne's saxon campaigns, but I remain undecided.

>>6200722
>1500 year long war on other cultures and religion?

No. Go read some history.

>>6200849
oh ok

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Babylon#Impact_of_the_US_military

>>6200860
Yeah, the romans totally had museums for greek and egyptian stuff, right? Wrong, temples were simply buildings with a function (this has to do with the pagan view of time I guess).

Yeah, the US aren't any better. In fact it would really help the situation in the Middle East if they would just gtfo and mind their own fucking business for once in their history. Let the kebabs kill each other, who cares.

>>6200861
>ONE THOUSAND AND NINETY YEARS AFTER CHRIST. If you don't think that matters, think again, think harder.
It certainly more relevant than anti-Nicene Christianity, if we're talking about the religion in any functional sense.

>>6200869
>>6200859
pls respond
:c

>>6200863
>destroying cultural artifacts intentionally to make a point is the same as damaging them by negkect

>>6200845
>now we're going back to times when people had no concept of treasuring cultural goods whatsoever

are you not judging people who have no concept of treasuring cultural goods for not treasuring cultural goods? this shit happens. nothing to get mad at isis about

>>6200859
>>6200872

go to bed Yukio

>>6200875
>neglect

hmm

>>6200865
>Yeah, the romans totally had museums for greek and egyptian stuff, right?
They certainly had private collections had tremendous reverence for Greek art.

>Wrong, temples were simply buildings with a function (this has to do with the pagan view of time I guess).
The Parthenon was simply a building with a function?

>>6200876
Let's put it this way, it's one thing to not know any better, and another to revolt against a civilization you're part of, and that knows better. Context. It matters.
>>6200869
Oh, so christianity began in 1090 AD. When did Islam begin?

>>6200204
Because they're contras.

>>6200872
Well hello. what book you be readin?

>>6200310
This retarded shit again.

>Bible and Koran explicitly command followers to reject idols
>no one is suprised when they follow through with this and destroy art
>"B-but ATHEISTS sometimes destroy art too!"

so the fates of these objects at the hands of isis is 'illegitimate history' or something? like you're not literally seeing history being made in how this historic cultural force is acting on its beliefs? lightweight intellectuals on this forum

at least you can identify pizzas in order to pass the captcha

>>6200887
>to revolt against a civilization you're part of

LOL dropped

>>6200883
>They certainly had private collections had tremendous reverence for Greek art.
True, but: with little regard for authenticity, which is a distincly modern concern.
As is the wish to conserve things because they are old, the people of antiquity relied on unchanging customs to simply reproduce those things.

>>6200893
Yes, the wholesale destruction of irreplaceable historical relics is itself technically history. Aren't you clever clogs.

>>6200895
>a museum in the middle east is being destroyed by middle easterners
>two different civilizations m8
It's not like there was more than one civilization, anyway.

>>6200897
you literally added nothing to the conversation. in fact you took one of my sentences, removed half of it, then posted the result

>>6200896
>True, but: with little regard for authenticity, which is a distincly modern concern
What the fuck are you talking about? Are you suggesting family heirlooms were considered as valuable as a copy that could be made of them?

>the people of antiquity relied on unchanging customs
Except for the Mysteries, customs were hardly unchanging. In Egypt maybe, you can see it in the art, but In Greece art went through heavy evolution.

>>6200901
>>a museum in the middle east is being destroyed by middle easterners

wow

>>6200879
I just woke up.
Revolutionaries or voluntary soldiers for a cause are the most masculine people that can exist. Not only are they willing to fight and risk their life in battle but they also have higher intellectual qualities and goals which ascend them from dumb gun totting brutes to true men.

This song is about a man like that.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=42NwDlHg5Bc

There is a bit of a difference as he is not really fighting for a ideological cause or something like that but simply to defend his home(but this too on it's own is virtuous) however his musical skill which he displays after forcing the enemy to retreat makes him not only a warrior but an artist too.
>>6200889
I'm mostly just reading math and economics text books right now because exams are coming up and I spent early months of this year looking moving from country to country and looking for a place to stay.

I read Lysis yesterday though, might read one of the other dialogues in the evening today.


What do you think about my thoughts on masculinity?

Leave it to /lit/ to resort to Chomsky's

>b-but Christian do bad things too!

like it makes it ok

>>6200904
I pointed out your pedantry to which you responded with further pedantry.

>>6200896
>True, but: with little regard for authenticity, which is a distincly modern concern.
Herodotus makes extensive mention of works of art primarily for their historic value.

>>6200774
>Christianity did the same though, didn't they?

No that's my point. They didn't, altough violent and brute they never exterminated culture to the same degree as Islam have. There is a remarkable difference in the two religions - and christianity has progressed much more than Islam.

>>6200912
i think people are just responding to how shallow the thinking is when people are just finding excuses to be outraged at isis for something they would otherwise not even think twice about

it's just like "this is what the enemy is doing and he is doing it because he is the enemy. also these actions are what people do when they're the enemy"

even engaging in this thread has dropped any elaborate thoughts i initially had down to the most nonsensical meme arrowing because of the level of discourse

>>6200913
>I pointed out

lol ok **convinced**

>>6200806

It's in their glossy magazine every month or whatever.

Basically, they want the armies of the crusaders to meet them on the plains by Dabiq, which is like Armaggeddon is for Christians.

>>6200232

It's not about muh shock and awe, muh armies, /k/ommando, it's about the fulfilment of apocalyptic propheciy, they're no more rational than Christian millenarians with all their bizarre ideas about israel and the fall of the USA. It's not logical.

The genuinely scary part is that there are people in positions of power in the USA who genuinely believe we're in the end-times and who'd be happy to meet the ISIS head-on.

tl;dr ISIS want the USA to come and fight them, and there's plenty of gung-ho americans who'll oblige either because of political short-termism or deep-seated irrationality.

>>6200862
They have tho, since the inception of Islam they have waged war on Christianity, Zoroastrian, Hinduism, Buddhism, Confucianism, there isn't a single region where Muslims in big population isn't at odds with the other cultures.

>>6200927

>it's either the islamic state or the flood

I'd take drowning any day even though it's my personal phobia.

>>6200921
>They didn't, altough violent and brute they never exterminated culture to the same degree as Islam have.

How many mayan codices are left, exactly?

Different versions of christianity treated the art of their subjugated peoples very differently, so talking about "christianity" as a monolithic whole is pretty simplistic.

>>6200930

That's because it's cancer in written form, you can't peacefully coexist when your sacred text explicitly forbids you to do so and in fact encourages you to kill infidels.

Let's not even mention the treatment of women. Pic related.

>>6200933

Joke's on them. I've got a boat.

>>6200921
>they never exterminated culture to the same degree as Islam have.

Banned the Olympics, extinguished the Vestal fire, banned the Philosophical schools of Athens ended the Greek mysteries (which seen by both Plato and Cicero as a core part of Greek and Roman culture), burned the library of Antioch, burned the Serapeum, trash Constantinople, not even going to get into the destruction of pagan temples. They pretty much exterminated classical culture, m8, at least West of Turkey. It was only revived with the Renaissance.

>>6200907
>but In Greece art went through heavy evolution.
Indeed, but this wasn't considered linear progress, and more importantly, people showed little interest in conserving that which became obsolete.
Mentioning family property is an interesting point, one of the many instances of blood relations taking a different mode than those of the general civilization.

>>6200774

>It's funny, though, because Turkey actually sent troops into ISIL threatened terriroty to relocate an ancient Ottoman tomb.

Turkey has nothing to fear from ISIS since everyone and their mother knows they're behind it in the first place.

>>6200861
>Which were a) a defensive campaign,
Okay, you have triggered me.

It's like I'm talking to Urbanus himself. Holy shit, the propaganda is real. What was the reason for self defense again? Protecting the christians? Which ones? The Melkites, Jacobites, Armenians, Maronites, Nestorians? Just to name a few. Pic related is the self defense of the christian faith during the crusades.

>ONE THOUSAND AND NINETY YEARS AFTER CHRIST
ISIL is OVER ONE THOUSAND AND FOUR HUNDRED YEARS AFTER THE BIRTH OF THE PROPHET

I don't see how this means anything. Do you think I'm attacking Christ or something? iconoclasm out of monotheism is iconoclasm out of monotheism.

>>6200938
Whatever Islam might stand for, the ISIS doesn't represent it, Islamic countries fucking detest the ISIS.

>>6200943
>Indeed, but this wasn't considered linear progress, and more importantly, people showed little interest in conserving that which became obsolete.
This is completely retarded, you're talking out of your ass. The artifacts held by temples were enormously valued for being artifacts, at the very least because they commemorated the giver.

>>6200948
>which christians
Those of asia minor and the levant, retard.
>ISIL is OVER ONE THOUSAND AND FOUR HUNDRED YEARS AFTER THE BIRTH OF THE PROPHET
OK RETARD BUT THE PROPHET DID THE EXACT SAME THINGS

I'm not even religious, I'm just pointing out that a difference exists. Just like I'm neither a nazi nor a conservative, which doesn't lead me to make the potentially fatal error of mistaking the one for the other.

Chomsky's political writings suffer from a lack of standards. These undermine his work. His attention to international issues indicates statism. He also relies on his linguistic expertise to give credibility to his politics.

These are deeply problematic behaviours, they are also anti-political.

>>6200952

>Islamic countries fucking detest the ISIS.

That's because it is armed and financed by Turkey to hinder the expansionist policies of other Islamic countries such as Saudi Arabia.

>no ISIS attacks against Turkey even though they're pretty secular muslims and therefore theoretical targets

>the attacks in Europe have so far targeted only countries who are opposed to Turkey entering the EU

>the attacks in the Middle East have damaged the foreign policies of pretty much every Islamic country except Turkey

>>6200962
>at the very least because they commemorated the giver
Which is quite different from valuing cultural artifacts the way we do.

>>6200977
No isn't, I said "at the very least", but things held by a temple were inventoried by age, and Herodotus talks about ancient sets of armor held in temples said to have been used in the Trojan War (which it probably wasn't, but that's not the point).

>>6200977
http://www.ajaonline.org/article/108

>>6200970
>Those of asia minor and the levant, retard.
Have you even read my post? This is starting to feel like a really pathetic troll attempt. And I'll just leave you in your willful ignorance if you can only selectively copy past half sentnces to lob some insults around and feel like you've said anything of any intellectual merrit.

>>6200972
>>no ISIS attacks against Turkey even though they're pretty secular muslims and therefore theoretical targets

>>6200991

Yes, exactly.

>>6200972
>That's because it is armed and financed by Turkey

That's a funny way to spell America.

>>6200157
Those fuckers over there are all the same. There'll be more fuckers over there. Fuckers over there reproduce.
There will never be another thousand year old statue of this one fucker over there, though. Fuckin' A.

>>6200972
>11 May: Two car bombs exploded in the town of Reyhanlı in Hatay Province, Turkey. At least 51 were killed and 140 injured.[5] The attack was the deadliest single act of terrorism ever to take place on Turkish soil.[6] Along with the Syrian intelligence service, ISIL was suspected of carrying out the attack.[7]

>30 January: ISIL fired on border patrol soldiers in Turkey. The Turkish Army retaliated with Panter howitzers and destroyed the ISIL convoy.[45][46][47]

>20 March: In Niğde city in Turkey, three ethnic Albanian[61] members of ISIL[62] opened fire while hijacking a truck, killing one police officer and one gendarmerie officer and wounding five people.[63][64] Shortly after their arrest, Polis Özel Harekat teams launched a series of operations against ISIL in İstanbul. Two Azerbaijanis were arrested.[65]

>2 October: The Turkish Parliament voted 298:98 to authorize anti-ISIL operations, following concerns over ISIL advances close to Turkey's borders. Turkey will allow foreign anti-ISIL military operations to be launched from within its borders and gave authorization for Turkey's military to be sent into Syria.[304]

>>6201004
As much as it's a cool thing to do, America does not have a monopoly of atrocity and destructive foreign policies.
>>6200972
Turkey closed the dam on the Euphrates to limit water supply to Raqqa and other Syrian cities, though. And in the vice documentary (for as far as you can attain truth from that) they are threatening to ''open the dams from Istanbul''

I think ISIL doesn't attack Turkey because they know damn well that Turkey doesn't care about Kurds, but cares about their own people, and that when they get involved, it's done with ISIL's fancy little state.

Still an interesting idea, though, it'll be interesting to find out what went down once the archives open in about forty years.

>>6200318
They only destroy a few relatively unimportant artifacts, for show. Most of them they sell on the black market to Europe and East Asia. They make like $300 million a year doing so iirc.

Why do we let shitty third world countries keep their artefacts anyway? This was bound to happen at some point. We should have taken them by force to a civilized nation.

>>6201015
>As much as it's a cool thing to do, America does not have a monopoly of atrocity and destructive foreign policies.

No, but it's pretty clear that ISIS is a continuation of the disastrous policies of the CIA in the middle-east. I'm not saying Turkey aren't involved (although they have more to lose than most if ISIS starts to become uncontrollable), since they're one of the USA's most stalwart allies in the region, but they wouldn't dare do anything as blatant as fund ISIS without Washington's say-so.

>>6200167
I didn't even think about that.
Fucking retards.

>>6201022
Ofcourse, don't get me wrong, a massive part of the Middle-Eastern trouble is a direct legacy of Euopean politics, which escalated into more problems, which were then escalated further by the US over the past 50 years or so, but your post seemed to imply it was solely the US's ''fault'', whereas you've cleared that up now.

The reluctance of Turkey to do anything is strang, though. They can get a lot of support as the frontier country between Europe and The Middle-East, and I'm pretty sure they don't exactly have a weak army to begin with. But Turkish and Egyptian isolationism isn't entirely new either. They've often withheld in inter-Arab affairs.

>>6200359
>Algebra
>trivial

>>6200952

Not that guy, but I tend to agree with Aslan when he says that Islam doesn't have a pope and if someone says they are Muslim, who are we to tell them they aren't. Islamic countries fucking hate ISIS, but I don't think that ISIS is any less Muslim because of that.

>>6201031
>The reluctance of Turkey to do anything is strang, though.

So far, ISIS haven't actually done anything to provoke Ankara, probably because it would be quite suicidal to anger the largest local power, and ISIS may be insane, but they're not stupid.

Also, Turkey don't want to get involved because they see the futility of escalating these conflicts. Every time the US or UK or France send in drones or planes or troops, ISIS membership grows and the outrages increase. The iStanbul bomb in 2002-3 or whenever it was shocked the turkish greatly, and left a lot of people questioning why the fuck Turkey should be involved in US foreign adventurism, particularly since it's not foreign to them, it's right on their doorstep.

Destabilising other governments and overthrowing regimes by force is something only the USA and its allies do.

>>6200941
West Anatolia. Turkey was still a bunch of tents in Mongolia when this was happening.

>>6201051

>what is a constantinople?

>>6200989
What's your issue, islamic persecution targeted pretty much all the groups you mentioned and more.

>>6201054
A Greek city, at the point you're talking about.
"Turkey" doesn't exist as a meaningful name before 1920.

>>6201060
>"Turkey" doesn't exist as a meaningful name before 1920.

That's the republic of turkey you retarded fuck. I guess you think there was no France before 1789?

>>6200144

there's a popular theory that ISIS is funded by the mossad, they'll never desecrate jewish artifacts or harm Israel. Just like Al'Queda...

lots of Arabs make fun of ISIS for this fact. Even in their comedies.

>>6201070
Different anon here, before that it was the kingdom of France, but there never was a kingdom of turkey.

>>6201070
It was the Ottoman Empire before that, and before that simply "the Turks."

>>6201077

OK, you're retarded and you're going to continue arguing your retarded point.

Carry on with your typical american insecurity levelled at a country with history which extends further back than living memory.

I remember first learning about this aspect of Islam when I was in high school and I had a class about the history of the Middle-East. If anything it's fascinating, it seems like history is returning to itself and I'm getting to witness it.
It's a damn shame, but that's Islam.

>>6201071
Yeah, calling anyone you disagree with a jewish agent is incredibly popular throughout the region, as islamic stupidity isn't limited to a few militants, whcih also would be strange: where wou.d those militants recruit, then?

>>6201080
>How to spot a Turk

The Seljuk Empire and the Ottoman Empire is hardly similar to Turkey.

It's like calling the Roman Empire similar to Italy or the Venetian Era.

>>6201085
>It's like calling the Roman Empire similar to Italy or the Venetian Era.

Way to undermine your own point, retard. What else you got?

>>6201080
But that's literally true, what's your point?

>>6201085
But the Ottoman Empire is quite similar to modern Turkey, it isn't like the Turks suffered the same fate as the Romans in terms of their gene pool. Istanbul and Ankara have been under Turkish rule since they toon them from the Romans, lel

>>6201090
>But that's literally true

>>6201056
My issue is that you, or whoever I responded to said, about the crusades:
>Which were a) a defensive campaign
Which they clearly weren't. That's like saying the Crimean war was a defensive campaign for orthodox christians. And after I've tried to show the person that it was not the case, and that ''christians'' isn't even the right word to use for the crusades, since there was a plethora of different forms of christianity in the Levant, all of them heretics according to the Franks, after which he just copies half a sentence, and makes a ridiculous response.

I never said Islam (once again, stupid word, one of the biggest enemies of the Islam is the Islam, Sunnis fucking detest shia muslims, then there are Druze, Wahhabists, Alawites and many more) didn't or doesn't commit these crimes, but to live in a world where someone has the audacity to say the crusades were a defensive mission, after his first post said
>Wow you dont know anything about history, do you?
is too much for me not to adress.

So that's my issue, I guess.

I always thought it was just a lazy cliche that Americans don't understand or learn history, but this thread is pretty strong evidence.

>>6201071
We've been watching some Lebanese and Syrian politicians in parlament and on tv, basically everything they don't like is Jewish. Arafat? Zionist, bought by America and Israel. Khaddam in the Syrian parlament? Bought by America and the Jews. Any political opponent? Jew. They're basically /pol/ on steroids.

>>6201095
Ok, two people have told you that it's only called turkey since 1920, whereas the state that preceded the republic was called the ottoman empire, and the territory, asia minor. Can you contain your idiocy long enough to tell us why you think we're wrong?

>In the early hours of 29 May the last Christian service was held in the great Church of the Holy Wisdom. It was a united service of Orthodox and Roman Catholics, for at this moment of crisis the supporters and opponents of the Florentine Union forgot their differences. The Emperor went out after receiving communion, and died fighting on the walls. Later the same day the city fell to the Turks, and the most glorious church in Christendom became a mosque.

The loss of all history makes me sad, but one thing I realized the last time I went to Turkey is that every truly amazing sight in the country predates Islam. Hagia Sophia is more beautiful than the Sultanahmet mosque or the Topkapı palace. All the fairy chimneys and the churches carved out of the soft rock predate the Turks. Really everything the Turks contributed pales in comparison to Byzantine and Roman works.

>>6201098
>mfw delusional Europeans don't realize Germany would have won the war had America not joined

>>6201105

Oh and yeah, I realize what was destroyed was not Islamic. I've just noticed I care less about what's come out of the east.

>>6201107

That's not even partly true. We owe more to Russia than the US. Many more would have died, I'm sure, but Germany spread itself too thin and it was going to fall whether or not the US intervened.

>>6201096
>heretics
Dude, those people didn't even fall under the authority of the pope, so the franks didn't give a fuck. But to be precise, Urban's main issues were the turkish expansion in asia minor and frequent attacks on pilgrims to Jerusalem.

>>6201104
>Can you contain your idiocy long enough to tell us why you think we're wrong?

It's not my job to spoonfeed idiots, or make up for deficiencies in the American education system (actually that is my job, but I'm not doing it for free).

You enjoy your idiocy and lack of education, it seems quite cozy.

>>6201112

Just a good thing that most of the originals were moved. Still though, this makes me hate Isis on a new dimension.

>>6201096
>once again, stupid word, one of the biggest enemies of the Islam is the Islam, Sunnis fucking detest shia muslims, then there are Druze, Wahhabists, Alawites and many more

This is irrelevant because at the end of the day they are all Muslims. No religion on earth is unified. All religions have different interpretations. Doesn't make them any less Muslim. Doesn't make Christians not Christians.

>>6201119
I'm not american, and seriously, how do you get a job in education if your arguments consist entirely of insults?

>>6201107
I get the feeling you're tying to show a typical American attitude to history, but just in case you aren't.

>>6200655
>Where's your sources for this?
well you could start with the graphic novel Persepolis, written by someone who lived through the Iranian Islamic revolution. there is a section where the author describes the day when the new leaders came to her school and told everyone they had to wear a veil or risk being beaten.

>>6201132

>posting jew history
>anti-americanism
>revisionist

Day of the rope when?

>>6200655

pic related is Egypt c. 1950

Hardly anyone wore a veil until the 1970s.

It's so easy to find out that I can't believe you're serious - all you have to do is google a bit and the recent history of these countries is apparent. Also this: >>6201136 and basically any other narrative of people who actually understand the region rather than idiot Americans who claim that it's a nest of evil anti-modernism and always has been.

The truth is that Iran, Egypt, Iraq were all modern, progressive couintries until the USA intervened and overthrew the progressive forces in the 1950s as part of larger cold war objectives.

The situation in Egypt and Iran, in particular, can be directly linked to CIA activities in the region, it's undeniable and no tinfoil is required.

We legit need an order of secretive militant cultists whom we drop into warzones at the start of any conflict, and their sole purpose in that war is to guard museums, churches and places of cultural significance. They should be terrifying enough that no one fucks with them, whilst being brainwashed into remaining kind of neutral.

You know, the thing is, Nazism is a great example of historical mass psychosis, I think. But this very clearly goes beyond. The Nazis could exercise rationality about certain things, and it is not as if their out-of-control ideology made the whole lot of them incapable of empathizing altogether. But this IS is quite another thing. I mean this is the Freudian Death Drive taking over entirely. There's absolutely no rhyme or reason to it. They're blowing shit up which isn't even a depiction of anything - like buildings. This goes beyond mere mass psychosis. This is mass devolution. We're becoming simian here.

>>6201126
>This is irrelevant because at the end of the day they are all Muslims
You seem to have no idea what you're on about. You go to a sunni neighbourhood in lebanon, tell them you're Shia, and see if you make it out alive with that argument.

Even if we can sit back and say they're ''all muslims/christians'' does not mean they're willing to fight for one another, willing to set up ''defensive campaigns'' for eachother, and stating this would be highly moronic. There were checkpoints during the Lebanese civil war where you were literally asked what religion you were (sunni, shia, duze, maronite), and if you picked wrong, or showed through your mannerisms that you weren't part of the interrogator's religion, you got murdered on the spot. Don't be a fool to shove them all under one name. What's your argument? They believe in the same God? They also believe in the same God as the Jews and Christians do. They're all the same, right?

>>6200972
>>6201004
I'm not really sure what the objective of supporting ISIS is, but Turkey most probably did arm, finance and train ISIS at some point, if not still doing it. America of course has a hand in it too because Erdoğan is a puppet.

>>6201012
The perpetrators of the 11 May event are unknown, ISIS did not fire on border patrols in 30 Jan. but a shell fell near the border while they were fighting Syrians, the terrorists of the 20 March event are claimed to be ISIS (the [62] citation in actually accuses Al Qaeda, top kek) and the 2 Oct. vote had nothing to do with ISIS, it was to enable the army to attack Syria if everything goes as Erdo wants. In the entire document ISIS is mentioned maybe 2 or 3 times, and after the vote the government said "our priority is to oust Assad".

>>6201031
>I'm pretty sure they don't exactly have a weak army to begin with
At present the army is a joke. Still more than what ISIS can handle for sure though.

>>6201043
>Turkish government does not want to rek Syrian government by force
laffin hard m8

>>6201162
>>Turkish government does not want to rek Syrian government by force

No evidence of that at all m8. Yeah, they want rid, or they want a new regime, but there's no way you can demonstrate a desire on the part of Turkey to involve themselves militarily in Syria.

You're pasting American values onto every other country, it's an error. We don't all think like you're told to think.

>>6200331
a couple of years ago there was a touring museum exhibition called Afghanistan : Crossroads of the Ancient World

the exhibits were mostly things that had been secretly taken from museums and hidden when the Taliban took over, and buried in people's back gardens and so on, by people who basically risked their lives to preserve them

there was some amazing stuff, but it is only a tiny fraction of what used to exist. it makes me wonder what things have been lost over time through the actions of filth like those in the video.

>>6201155
Ok, first of all, druze aren't muslim, and alawite are at best faking it. That leaves sunni and shia, the difference between them largely consists in their opinion about a guy named Ali.

>>6200331
There was a museum in Beirut, in the middle of ''The green line'' where the owner poured concrete over the art, forming massive blocks, so that flying bullets and mild explosions wouldn't destroy them. After the war was over, he could just chop the concrete away again. Some people will go to lengths to preserve the past. He even gave someone (Thomas Friedman, whos book im paraphrasing to begin with) a tour of it, he knew all the art by heart, and described the statues that lay burried under the concrete.

>>6200384
Islam has always been about destroying idols when it takes over.
Do you literally not know anything about Islam?

>>6201175
Sure, the Alawites got snuck in there by Al-Assad, but they still count now. They were proclaimed Islamic by a legit authority, whether it happened honestly or not.

>>6201168
I'm a Turk so you can rest assured that I have all the evidence I want. I can't go over and establish a timeline and translate articles for you though, but ask any anti-AKP (and non-ultranationalist, because most of those would support military action to annex Syria) person in Turkey and you'll be told that Syria would have already been attacked if the government didn't have to listen to Obongo in matters of foreign policy. Most pro-AKP people will either have no idea on how to get rid of Assad ("our leaders will decide for the best!"), or will also support military action.
Not a single peaceful word to resolve the situation in Syria has been uttered by the government since Erdo and Assad stopped being bffs.

>>6201183
The turkish alevites, though somewhat different, are certainly not fond of getting 'muslim' stamped into their passports.

"We will call the Arabs oriental Italians. A gifted, noble people; a people of wild, strong feelings, and of iron restraint over these; the characteristic of noblemindedness, of genius."
- Thomas Carlyle

Did he somehow get it wrong, /lit/?

>>6201187
>I'm a Turk

Stopped reading there.

>>6201195
If you're still the original person whom I started this whole debacle with, I don't see how you could make your original statement and also think this.

If you're someone else, I don't know much about Turkish Alevites, in fact, I know too little about Turkey in the first place. I know the Alawites in Sryia managed to get proclaimed ''Muslim'' after Al-Assad made a constitution saying the president didn't have to be muslim, after which riots broke out, the ''president has to be muslim'' got added, to which Assad had to make sure he was seen as a legit muslim, so he had an islamic authority proclaim that Alawites were muslim. I don't know if Alawites are happy about it or not, but they are, in Syria at least, definitely muslim.

>>6201093
>Loss of balkans
>Loss of most of Arabic Peninsular
>Loss of Africa
>Loss of control over major trade routes

What are you even talking about?

>>6201208
>We will call the Arabs oriental Italians.

Italian here.

No thanks.

Someone should volunteer to talk with them about it and reach for a diplomatic solution.

No, I'm not being ironic. It's utopic, but it's nevertheless important for someone to say it.

>>6200144
>How do my fellow historyfags feel about this?
Disappointed.

>>6201250
>Someone should volunteer to talk with them about it and reach for a diplomatic solution.

A minor politician in my country actually advocated "elevating the terrorists to the role of interlocutors"

He got ridiculed to hell and back, and rightly so.

They're fanatics, they don't listen to reason by definition or they wouldn't be fucking fanatics in the first place.

>>6201239
The nation of Turkey consists of territory that has been under Turkish control for centuries, even of it isn't the whole of the Ottoman Empire's holdings. The Turkish state is very old, having successfully transitioned from empire to republic.
In no sense does the Roman Empire have any holdings today. The Italian gene pool has been irreparably corrupted since Roman times, and the modern Italian state doesn't resemble the ancient Roman state to the same degree the Turkish sate resembles the Ottoman state, nor was the transition from Empire to democracy nearly as easy and comparably swift and painless (happening as it did after WWI and not during) as the Ottoman Empire->Turkish Republic transition.
As I said, Ankara and Istanbul have been consistently under the control of one nation for centuries, unlike Italy, which lost its claim to Roman blood sometime around the reign of Odoacer.

I really hope we get some interesting memoirs from the ISIS thing, it seems so absolutely insane I think it'd be really weird to see what it looked like from the inside.

>>6200144
History will not even be preserved by the written word. The truly important people and events will be spoken of still, even when the art of our writing is lost.

>>6201268
Yeah, tell that to Ozymandias.

>>6201261

The "Roman blood" you speak of never existed in the first place. By the time the Empire came about, Rome was already a multiethnic society formed by people from a hundred different provinces.

Or maybe you were talking about the patrician families who did indeed remain "pure" but were numerically irrelevant so it's not like they represented the whole population.

Also your whole argument reeks of "purity of blood" nonsense.

>>6201261
>nor was the transition from Empire to democracy nearly as easy and comparably swift and painless (happening as it did after WWI and not during) as the Ottoman Empire->Turkish Republic transition.

Yes, those Armenian, Greek and Assyrian genocides surely was swift and easy. Shit, then again you would most likely say they never happened - as well as the oppression of the kurds.

>The nation of Turkey consists of territory that has been under Turkish control for centuries

The land of Turkey has been longer under Greek control than it has been turkish.

>The Turkish state is very old
The turkish state is far from old.

>Turkish state resembles the Ottoman state
Where are all those janissars? Or the slaves? Or the muslim rule?

You are fucking delusional.

>>6201261
> a Turk, of all people, talking about 'blood purity'.
Topkek. The original Turks were slant-eyed chinks.

>>6201262

>it's hot here
>my feet hurt
>is Ahmed fucking a black goat or raping a prisoner? can't tell with these burqas
>goats are tighter anyway
>I think I have dysentery
>tfw no kurds left to kill

And so on and so forth

>>6201289
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=f08_1424123423

>>6201287
I /lit/ and /pol/ married or something?

>>6201280
If you're talking about the identity of a nation (which I am) it makes sense to speak of the genetic makeup thereof. Sorry if that hurts your feelings. Purity has less to do with it than actual genetic identity. The Roman people and gene pool were devastated by barbarian invasions, or do you disagree?
>>6201283
The transition I was talking about happened after those genocides, and the pain was the painfelt by the state, not by its people.
>>6201287
I'm not Turkish.

>>6201290
>you can fuck me and all the brothers here

>>6201255
I don't understand why people jump to that paradox. You say they don't listen, so it is useless to talk to them, but how can you say they don't listen if you haven't tried to talk to them? You say they don't listen to reason by definition, but it wasn't given any chance for any other definition to sprout.

As said, it is utopic, merely ideal to talk to them. But we shouldn't give up of this ideal in favour of an emotional reaction to the situation. It doesn't occur to people that their violence might be a way to reach for a voice that otherwise they wouldn't have. And then, to a lot of people, the act of giving them a voice appears as some form of right that violent people do not deserve. A dead end, really. On the contrary, to violentely oppose them gives the situation a very limiting scope: they should either stay silent (or be silenced) or be violent. It also implies a fear that if you were to sit to talk to them about what they believe and what they want and what means could there be for an agreement, that they would magically convince you or others and gather followers. By giving them a voice you prove to them that they could act in ways other than violence and you are able to better observe the problem from both sides.

It's not a problem to try to be diplomatic with such a violent group, on the contrary, it only makes it much more needed, it is the only solution when facing violence, that is, to violently implement the means in which diplomacy can actually solve our problem.

>>6201290

>no beard on ass

lost it

>>6201296
>>6201283
Also the Greek state got fucked when the Turkish state came into existence, Byzantium literally fell to the Turks and the Greeks had to win back their independence from them. The Turkish state merely changed forms, and there's more continuity between the Republic and the Empire than there is between the Byzantines and the modern Greek state.

>>6201290
This is the hardest I've laughed at anything IS related
>one finger!
>health care is top notch I tell you. Just like that dick

>>6201287
This.

Turks today are basically byzantine greeks and armenians with a bit of mongol blood from war rape.

>>6201306
balance fallacy

You're retarded.

>>6201296

Belonging to a nation is a matter of culture, not genetics.

Also I don't know why but you can always spot the far rightists because they will without fail mention "hurt feelings" to illustrate how they are instead hard ubermensch, unfazed by trivial and plebeian things such as mercy and compassion for your fellow man.

>>6201320
Did I deny that culture was an aspect of it?
Calling me a 'far rightist' because I don't think the Greek state is older than the Turkish state seems a bit unfair.

>>6201306
>And then, to a lot of people, the act of giving them a voice appears as some form of right that violent people do not deserve.

That's exactly it man. You talk to them, maybe you give in to some of their demands, and by doing so you pass the message that "violence gets you a seat at the table" which is a fucking dangerous thing to do.

>>6201318
Balance fallacy? To talk about it is not there to determine whose side of the equation has it right and which side has it wrong. You forget that to talk to them is also means to educate them or, at the very least, to clear things out of their way and think of new possibilities (for both sides), to have what they want and by what means deliberately expressed (which does not entail, by any means, that we must abide to it) and to have our side of the story spoken to them clearly as well. To assume that this is a case of balance fallacy or that by taking the position of listeners we are accomplices is to ignore our own agency to talk about it and take our stance like adults. It also gives them more reason to not talk and act violently instead.

>>6201332
I can understand that, but it seems to be a matter of insistence then. You don't give them a seat at the table, thus they turn violent and thus, you can't give them a seat at the table anymore in order not to prove this violence effective. The mistake might have been not to give them a voice early on, but now it is a matter or resisting to the violence. I question whether this resistance is really a question of avoiding to send the message that violence leads to a seat at the table and not some ulterior political motivation. The fear seems to be that other groups that do not feel represented might say "okay, so if I act violently will you listen to us like you did with ISIS?", but the appropriate response would be, "no, we will listen to you right now before any violence". It's always important to remember, though, that to seat at the table doesn't mean to comply, to listen to them doesn't mean to grant them what they wish, but to further develop the relationship between what each side wants. This is the misconception that I feel people jump to, that to listen is to agree and that to talk is to demand. If this misconception persists, then indeed, violence reactions will break from all sides.

>>6201359

What you don't seem to understand is that this is not a group that was non-violent before and turned violent as a result of not being listened to.

This is a group FORMED, ARMED, TRAINED and FINANCED with the EXPRESS PURPOSE of committing acts of violence, terrorism, what have you. Violence is not their last resort, it was their aim from the start.

They don't want to talk to you. They want to fucking behead you or set you on fire.

>>6201373
>tfw they were formed, armed, trained, financed with the express purpose of committing acts of violence by the same people who are getting beheaded now.

>>6201107
>>6201123
>>6201142
>this is what americans actually believe

>>6200807
>Mostly genocide and robbery and rape, but one or two statues may have gotten smashed along the way, too.
> one or two statues may have gotten smashed
> one or two

if only

> We found a large number of books in these characters and, as they contained nothing in which were not to be seen as superstition and lies of the devil, we burned them all, which they (the Maya) regretted to an amazing degree, and which caused them much affliction.

I honestly don't care at all. Never would have even heard about these artifacts in my life if these guys never did this

>>6201083
>calling anyone you disagree with a jewish agent is incredibly popular throughout the region
it's pretty popular on some boards on this site, too

>>6201516
You are far too obvious rabbi...

>>6200807
>The conquistadors weren't religious.
>Implying the catholic church hadn't passed a papal bull telling christian rulers the conquer the pagan wold in the name of Christ.
>Implying the Spanish crown didn't want gold to pay off their crusade debits, and fund another crusade.

>>6201521
i am targeting my special jewish space lasers on you right right now

>>6201524
he said there motivation was not religious not that they were not religious

>>6200817
Which were invented by Indians and adopted by Europe through Arabia.

i'm a STEM fag and i feel horrible about this. i collect old and ancient stuff. i feel if there's anything holy in the world to me it's things like these, the stuff our ancestors left behind, the things that bind us all, it's crazy fascinating and to see some bearded twat hammer it to pieces it makes me legit sad. fucking barbarians.

I'm gonna be contrarian here for a minute.

Most muslims I've met were alright people, but I strongly dislike radical islam. However.
In a way, I can completely understand the desire for autonomy the people in the region must have. US & company have been bombing and pillaging the area for control over, mostly, natural resources for decades now and then they pulled out leaving a defunct state that they "nation-built" in a, historically speaking, tiny tiny timeframe thinking it will somehow work out, with deals that let them further exploit resources and that made sure the system was at least vaguely pro-west and wouldn't pose a threat. Can you blame some Iraqi sandnigger who probably lost his loved ones, his home and any chance of any sort of desirable future to some big ass overseas empire blowing everything in their way out of their path and then sucking the land dry of the one natural resource it has, for going full jihad?

I can't.

And the people making the decisions in the US can't either, or at least they know this is legit and powerful, because otherwise they'd have just bombed and invaded the place again already. But it wouldn't change anything. This is a strong opposition bound by having similar heritage and more importantly, a common enemy, which is a powerful, powerful thing. It's not some puppet state lead by a single warlord.

And it does make sense to destroy these ancient artifacts from that position. Revolutionaries of any kind never had much regard for historical sentiment. They're fighting an assymetrical war, they must hit the enemy where it hurts and this has certainly hurt.

>>6200941
Strange to see that image. I used that as my profile pic for a while. It looks just like me, or that is to say it once did. Profile of a Boy. Faiyum portraits were always my favorite.

>>6201647
>Portrait of a Boy
whoops

>>6201647
u look like a faggot

>>6200655
Photos of univ. of Lebanon, Iran, etc exist-- they've appeared on the Web

I used to major in Ancient Near East.
Felt like shit all day. Went to the museum today with an amazing collection of ancient Near East treasures.
Almost cried because I am a sensitive bitch but damn, I really felt bad.

>>6200144
>mealy-mouthed Western liberals upset about inanimate objects but didn't give one iota about the human lives sacrificed for the satisfaction they get from imperialism
This is what you wanted, and there is more to come.
>thisisthefutureyouchoseronaldopaulface(exceptforreal,sojustignoretheronaldopaulheandhissonareidiotstoo).jpg

>>6201578
>>6201720
i gotta agree. i'm still sad.

>>6201033
Abstract algebra is non-trivial. Simple algebra is trivial, all muslims ever worked on was simple algebra and they didn't even get as far as solving cubic equations. Literally the only value of muslim work in mathematics was introducing the Indian numeral system to the West.

>>6200314
>the Cultural Revolution in China when 2000 years of accumulated history was purposefully obliterated
This really didn't happen, mate. At worst some Han culture artifacts, books of which many duplicates exist, were destroyed, maybe some Tibetan ones. Try asking why the majority of Han and Tibetan would do and celebrate such a thing. Living under the domination of landlords and warlords is insufferable and their superstitions and institutions they used to subjugate the peasants and workers isn't worth preserving, at least not in a non-popular form. Which is why -- bum bum bum -- religions weren't ever outlawed and minorities were actually encouraged to revive their traditional languages and customs under Communist protection. >yfw the Dalai Lama is the most hippie-liberal head of a religion anywhere thanks to the Tibetan revolutionaries that deposed the Tibetan theocracy and properly separated the "church" from the state, otherwise he'd just be an out-and-open despot all the other lamas before him.

>>6201708
>Went to the museum today with an amazing collection of ancient Near East treasures literally stolen from their native lands so they could be properly commodified by myself and every starry-eyed child like myself.
You people

>>6200807
>>6201745
What is with the revisionists in this thread?

>>6201766
Are you retarded? There's nothing "revisionist" about saying muslims did no work in abstract algebra.

>>6201759
They didn't defend it back then. They didn't cry or crawl all over their treasures.

>>6201768
http://www.storyofmathematics.com/islamic.html

>>6201784
Do you even know what abstract algebra is you retard? That link proves you wrong.

>>6200294
you're a dumbass. what about Maoists during the cultural revolution in china? what about stalin?

you haven't really thought your statement through yet you're saying it for the whole world to read. please stop!!!!! the world will become dumber should anyone take you seriously.

>>6200910
>What do you think about my thoughts on masculinity?

Nonsense and quixotic.

>>6201262

>>6201262

>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TK9721v_V0E#t=41

>>6200204
to recruit edgy muslim kids

>>6202516
so... before he killed himself he dipped a banana in nutella? (a phallic object into a feces- colored liquid) and posted it online?

is zizek right about islam?

>>6202516
started laughing like a retard in class and was asked if I had anything to shaer

>>6201290

>>6201789
>didn do abstract algebra didn no nuffin lol
No one cares, the point is this:
>Literally the only value of muslim work in mathematics was introducing the Indian numeral system to the West.
is clearly fucking wrong. Put your brain-cells to work for once instead of your ideology, someone else could be using the oxygen you're wasting oxygen for more productive activities than you can muster, such gardening or playing sudoku or masturbating.

>>6202516
>a little jihadi snack
>alhamdulillah
Holy shit my sides
Is ISIS full of /b/tards?

>>6202564
Most likely

>>6202568
This might be true. There are many manchildren and edgy teenagers on the West who have enlisted on ISIS ranks. Probably this guy was a 4chan shitposter.
Or they all post on 4chan and have been infected by the memes.

>>6202525

1. jihad does not = suicide

2.

>is zizek right about islam?

In the same way Freud would be about you and your interpretation with the 'phallic' symbol and 'shit'.

>>6200310
The Spanish Left was more Christian than the Catholic church during that period by far.

Keep the war drums booming guys! We'll be in Damascus by this time next year... and we'll be there in 20 years too!

>>6201154
>But this IS is quite another thing. I mean this is the Freudian Death Drive taking over entirely.
ISIS is undoubtedly fueled by the same primal root of fascism, but its been turned even more extreme by decades without any real political or societal stability in the area.

Its no surprise that Islamist extremism was born in a part of the world where you are either "liberated" with the bullets of foreigners or under the boot-heel of technocrat dynasties, royal or otherwise. You are likely an uneducated, highly religious individual who has either grown up in the face of these wars, so recruiting is easy.

ISIS has the bonus of being led by some well funded individuals (ironically they are likely the sons of the same westernized wealthy that ISIS hates dearly). So they make sleek videos and recordings that dupe foreign Muslims into fighting the good fight with a far greater rate than Al Qaeda could even dream of.

And whilst Adnani clearly knows a lot about his faith, he undoubtedly knows that by urging his followers into doing exceedingly horrifying deeds that he is going to exacerbate Islamophobia in the region and in the West to a point where his enemies will leap at the chance to give him his apocalypse. Or at least, that is what I think he is trying to accomplish, because what he is preaching surpasses parody in its comicbook ridiculousness.

How it will all pan out in the long-run is as fascinating to think about as it is bleak.

>>6202575
>mfw imagining ISIS posting on 4chan

>>6200144

This can be justified in many reasonable ways:

One could say that these artifacts are the vain, narcissistic monuments of long dead tyrants and oppressors, and as such are morally repugnant.

Or one could point out how many individuals and organizations are willing to spend excessive amounts of time and money to preserve such artifacts, instead of using that money to help millions of actual, living human beings who suffer abject poverty. These lumps of old stone, which causes some men to care for them more than their fellow men, clearly have an unhealthy effect on society.

Get over it.

>>6202667
Neither of those were their reasons though.

They destroyed them because they were idols of false gods.

>>6200144
Nietzsche said you mus enjoy destruction, ISIS are only following their will to power.

>>6200348
>their numbers would intensify to nightmare
If we were willing to kill civilians in large numbers there's absolutely nothing they could do to stop us from carpet bombing the entire middle east. If the American or European populace ever felt seriously threatened this "war" would be over in a matter of weeks.

>>6202664
I'm sure they do. Probably on /pol/. There are many threads praising ISIS and many fags there get annoyed if you start talking in a bad mood about islam.

>>6202674

So its said they say. I bet you never heard the Taliban's real reason for destroying the Bamiyan Buddha's either.

>"I did not want to destroy the Bamiyan Buddha's. In fact, some foreigners came to me and said they would like to conduct the repair work of the Bamiyan Buddha's that had been slightly damaged due to rains. This shocked me. I thought, these callous people have no regard for thousands of living human beings -- the Afghans who are dying of hunger, but they are so concerned about non-living objects like the Buddha's. This was extremely deplorable. That is why I ordered its destruction. Had they come for humanitarian work, I would have never ordered the Buddha's destruction." - Commander of the Faithful Mullah Muhammad Omar

https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Mohammed_Omar

As a Muslim I was used to the glares and bad treatment from random people after 9/11, and in a way I understood where it came from.
Other than garden-variety racists, they were driven to fear and hate by this terrible thing, a lot of them were simply scared and bought into prejudice out of a sense of survival. And in time it lessened, though it never fully went away.

But ISIS is totally different, I am suspected of being some sort of sleeper cell and I am expected to apologize or answer for actions that would have been done to me, not just for being a traitor in their eyes but for being Sufi. I am not even a part of the same Islam and yet I am seen as one of them.

Its funny that they are destroying all these pieces of past faiths, because they are destroying their own faith and all other branches of Islam.

Not to mention all those poor Sikhs.

>>6200722
>Is it just me or has Islam waged a 1500 year long war on other cultures and religion?

pretty much like the West in that respect innit

>>6200722
Almost every religion has done this. I don't want to sound as le fedora man, but religion caused this massive crap.

>>6202696

>Bamiyan Buddha's
>'s

I even added it to every instance in the quote.

My God, I'm stoned as hell

>>6202696
It is remarkable how the West is going apeshit over some statues, while probably reading about it on their phones containing Coltan, mined by children in war torn areas of the Congo, manufactured in Chinese factories with suicide nets around them.

To keep it more local: it's funny how when the oil price and oil monopoly over the Middle-East was threatened, the U.S. deployed 500.000 soldiers to Operation Desert Shield, turned Desert Storm, dropped the biggest bombardment campaign in military history on Iraq, and kept the population under heavy economic sanctions for over a decade, only to attack them again, displacing hundreds of thousands again, completely ruining what was left of the country, then get mad when the offspring of the generations that had to live through this demolish some culutral herritage and say they want to murder the West.

I mean, it's all terrible, but fuck me if the idea of the West doesn't have it coming to them. All you have to do in Western courts is say you were touched as a kid and there you go, insanity plea, punishment altered, but somehow we're expecting kids that grew up in the rubble of what was once an alright country (say what you want about Saddam's cruelties and the atrocious war on Iran, he modernized the living hell out of Iraq, established Iraqi nationalism and created a wealthy middle class, fought illiteracy sucessfully, etc. It's no surprise he was cockhungry for Stalin, horrid deeds, decent results somehow) act like perfect little angels.

>>6201296
>or do you disagree?
yes, actually, since the 'barbarian invasions' never had anything to do with breeding-out the population of a single city.

>>6202893
To add: There are plenty of people aware of this, there are plenty of people who don't support the West's actions, but there are too many who are either unaware, or completely uncaring, at least not enough to actually do something about it. As cliché as it is, our system is too strong to defy by now, and it's turning everything to shit and making everyone hate our guts, and rightfuly so, and we can even agree with them in their ideas, but there's nothing we can do about it, it seems.

So don't read the above post as a pro ISIL thing, but more of a realization of the utter futility of the modern Western man in trying to do anything about perpetual injustice we are actively taking part in, simply by buying what we buy, and paying taxes.

The problem that many of these militant groups make is thinking that somehow the West = corporations/government, and I guess we are democracies, so we have no excuse to say that we aren't, but still, the people aren't represented by their governments, or by their corporations one bit. It's a very annoying situation to think about.

ITT: Arabs who did literally nothing wrong

>>6200651
>literally orientalism: the post