/lit/ - Literature

>But of course such poor wretches have no idea how corpselike and ghostly their so-called "healthy-mindedness" looks when the glowing life of the Dionysian revelers roars past them.

>>6153304
Nietzsche is the most appolonian philosopher.

>>6153304
>Are all those faggots who complain about degeneracy just buthurt Apollonians who can't into Dionysianism?
Essentially. But what Nietzsche qualified as Dionysian isn't what your average joe qualifies as hedonistic.

>>6153353
Well I've only started reading, but it looks like he's praising Dionysus harder. Do you have anything to back that claim up or is this one of those. HURR DUR NIETZCHE WAS A FEDORA TIPPING PROTO FACIST Things.

>>6153367
This, Nietzsche hated hedonism. His idea of Dionysian was dancing, music and today's.

>>6153304
>>6153374
>faggots
>butthurt
>all caps mocking
>hurr dur fedora tipping proto fascist

This board has gone to shit. Anyway, Nietzsche would find degeneracy bad too.

>>6153410
Plays I mean

>>6153410
His idea of Dionysian was affirming life and the inherent joy and jubilance of being alive. Contrast that with contemporary hedonism which is all about distracting yourself from life at the cost of destroying yourself.

>>6153316
I felt so bad when I read it because I'm that kind of person

>>6153428
bullshit, you're just a life denying ascetic looking for excuses to justify being a shutin

>>6153413
Nietzsche would have harsher words for neo-reactonaries than the so called "degenerates" considering what he had to say about German nationalists.

Even if he didn't like Degeneracy, he'd pretend to just to piss /pol/ off, remember this guy pretended to be polish and said Germany should deport anti-semites.

>>6153468
What? Have you been on 4chan so long than you can now only think in terms of false dichotomies? Like that everyone who doesn't subscribe to contemporary popular notions of hedonism is automatically an extreme social invalid?

>>6153531
I'm not that guy, so I can't account for his ad homonym, but I still think you are wrong. both about modern hedonism and Nietzsche's Dionysian.

When he talks about the Dionysian he talks about intoxication, orgies, pagan rituals, and "the witches brew of sensuality and cruelty."Modern pop music might take him some getting used to, but he'd probably be forced to conclude that it's Dionysian to the extreme, and people who complain about it, are just being the arrogant Apollonian who he claimed look sickly and foolish when they turn their noses to songs about big buts and expensive parties.

>>6153613
I don't disagree with you so much I think you've missed my point. I believe that for Nietzsche it was all about the underlying ethos not the actual acts of hedonism. Something is Dionysian when it wholly affirms life. I'm sure there are plenty of individuals out there that affirm and realize life through the joy of intoxication, music, partying etc. But in my own experience a vast, vast majority of individuals engage in these activities as a form of oblique repression, a reprieve from their otherwise unrealized and unfulfilled lives. When I speak about contemporary hedonism I refer not to acts and actions but to the common mentalities that underlie it. Mentalities which Nietzsche would almost certainly condemn as life-denying.

>>6153643
ur just a closet puritan, kill yourself

>>6153652
I'm merely expanding on my interpretation of Nietzsche thought, not my own beliefs or practices as such. That being said ad hominems are wholly inappropriate. If you disagree with me then articulate why.

>>6153353
Even though it's literally the philosophy of tragedy i.e. Dionysos against the crucified

>>6153643
Would you mind expanding on those?

>>6153613
>When he talks about the Dionysian he talks about intoxication, orgies, pagan rituals, and "the witches brew of sensuality and cruelty."M


umm no he does not.

>>6153658
>>6153643
>>6153531
Just wanted to say I agree with your interpretation completely.

>>6153675
Actually he does, section 2 of The Birth of Tragedy, where he introduces the fucking concept for the first time.

Your quote isn't even about that, it just mentions it in passing. Also given the filename, you appear to be a Gator trying to cherry pick Nietzsche to fit your views.
Forgive my Godwin here, but that's LITERALLY what Hitler did.

>>6153668
Nietzsche interpreted the Dionysian rather idiosyncratically, and throughout his career the dichotomy of the Dionysian and Apollonian became increasingly intertwined with his dichotomy of Christian civilization (referred to through a variety of appellations) and the 'higher man'. Even in early on in his thought, in the Birth of Tragedy, he invests the concept of Dionysian with a great deal more than most writers on the Dionysian. The Dionysian isn't merely the affirmation of life through pleasure, its also for Nietzsche the sum of the “pre-ideological ideal”, an ideal which Nietzsche arguably spent his whole life writing about and is that which the ubermensch represents.
The Dionysian is the pure unadulterated experience of life, and thus its affirmation. It's a casting out of (for lack of a better word) ideology or ideas, forms, and all other Apollonian concepts (and all concepts in general), in order to literally experience life itself.
With regards to the contemporary ideology of hedonism it fails to meet the criteria for being Dionysian because of just that- it's become ideological. Most individuals who seek pleasure do so for a wide variety of reasons and for a wide variety of ends. It is “ideological” because it is based in and caused by ideas. To "be" Dionysian to seek pleasure for no reason and to no end other than for a pure experience of life itself. You could say that a rave for example could be a Dionysian experience, but in reality I think you’d find a majority of attendants would provide an ideological or conceptual answer as to why they were there.
My apologies if this makes no sense, its pretty late here and I should have gone to bed two or three hours ago.

>>6153735
So you are saying modern hedonists aren't really Dionysian because they feel the need to justify their hedonism with what other meme philosophers would call "Spooky ideology"?

That makes sense, but I'm not really sure I agree a significant about of modern party goers actually do that.

>>6153704
I have unmasked a monster!

>>6153735
Clearly you are overflowing with energy pregnant with the future, keep on overflowing!

>>6153758
>what other meme philosophers would call "Spooky ideology"?
I use the appellation "ideology" for lack of a better widely employed term, but what I'm really trying to get at is the cognitive processes involved. The Dionysian, for Nietzsche, was among many things a rejection of Platonist idealism. With regards to modern day hedonists, I would argue that most of them conceive of their hedonism ideally or in a conceptual sense, which is really the opposite of what the Dionysian is.

No, it's the other way around. Apollonians are the good guys. Dionysian are the sick reactionary natalist perverts.

>>6153784
You can think that, but Nietzsche disagrees with you.

Nietzsche just uses 'life-denying' to mean 'something I don't like,' the term has no real meaning.

Nietzsche retracted that book anyway.

>>6153819
He did not retract it, but he does constantly correct himself about that book.

>dionysus is not about health you hitler but orgy and witches

>>6153517
Nationalism was still a liberal jacobin idea while Nietzsche was still friends with Wagner. It wasn't always the extreme conservative ideology you know it for, now.

>>6155292
He still opposed it after he broke up with Wagner for being a racist christfag. He opposed antisemitism and Christianity as well as nationalism.

>>6153784

How did you get that the Apollonians are 'the good guys'? Also why is this thread discussing the two as though they're mutually exclusive?

In one respect, the Apollonians may be viewed to be naive; they rely on the form or appearance of an object, as to uplift it to a state that we are able to conceive of and accept. Consider Nietzsche's example of the Olympians when contrasted with the story of King Midas' encounter with Silenus. The idea of the Olympians, when contrasted with Silenus' words, seems very naive, if one is to take Silenus to be as wise as he is proclaimed to be.

However, in another respect, one may consider the Dinoysians to be rather frail and thus also relatively negatively connotated. After losing one's self within 'the primal unity', becoming one with nature via any medium Nietzsche lists -- let's say Wagner's music -- one destroys one's 'Veil of Maya' and sees the world for what it is. However, as this is absolutely terrifying for us (hence the tragic element of the work), we necessarily rely on the Apollonian to, as mentioned, uplift that which we cannot bear to a state capable of being pondered -- not necessarily accepted or understood, but at least partially realized.

To talk of them both as mutually exclusive is to completely miss the idea of their dialectical nature.

>>6155543

It looks like i contradict myself here, but a distinction is relevant. We may accept and understand the form of something, i.e. Apollonian art, as I state within my first lil snippet. But in the second, where I say that they cant be necessarily accepted, I mean what we actually encounter through the Dionysian ecstasy cannot be understood or accepted. That why we bring it into a form of some sort, via Apollo, so that we may accept the form, at least. We may never accept the actuality.

Isn't Nietzsche someone who appreciated "the struggle"? How could he be for any sort of Hedonism when Hedonism is about avoiding the struggle as much as possible?

>>6155292
Nietzsche hate Carlyle as well. He liked the idea of a aristocracy that were very sparse and not decadent, and were soldiers. Like Sparta.

If you want to go deeper, >>6156002

>>6156787
Any quotes on him complimenting sparta>?

>>6155554
That's from the birth of tragedy (currently reading it) but I understood that he later rejects all apollonian and goes full dinoysian, I could be wrong...

>>6156876
What he goes on to call Dionysian in his mature works is dialectic between apollonian and dionysian images found in the birth of tragedy. I don't recall apollonian being used as much after that, if it does its usually the traditional meaning.

>>6156924
I assumed he liked both, but saw too much Apollonian and too little Dionysian in the world he lived in.

>>6156787
You clearly haven't read Carlyle.

>>6156876

I think you're confusing it with Socratic knowledge homie

>>6153643
In a certain way, oblique repression strikes me as a true affirmation of life, in that "the vast, vast majority" as you put it, engage in those activities regardless of their level of self-examination.

>reading about a l'atheist

>>6155561
You could argue that realized hedonism recognizes the problems that occur from a completely pleasure-seeking approach and rationalizes them as a way to continue without changing perspective at the cost of metamorphosing into a struggle hugger

>>6157574
or, more accurately, a masochist all along

i seriously hope you don't all take Appolonia and Dionysian to be in dichotomy

>>6157662
No, but it seems that Nietzsche was complaining about people who did. 19th century Europe was obsessed with the Apollonian and rejecting the Dionysian.

It seems certain elements on 4chan make the same mistake.

>>6153613
Its spelled ad hominem not homonym