/lit/ - Literature

>>6121323
>Or is the glorification of pain a form of escapism from the truth of meaninglessness?
Yes.

The problem that I see with his conception of pain, right off the bat, is that a lot of suffering is unequivocally senseless. He seems to ascribe a positive value judgement to suffering, which I think is flawed: that a person, particularly a strong person, grows within very challenging circumstances. But I don't think that's true. I think that a lot of suffering simply eats away at people, since it literally may weaken their physiology. But, even if didn't, suffering isn't necessarily an opportunity. In my view, it's an obstacle--something to be circumvented.

We are biologically designed, if you will, to avoid it. For example: Once we learn that the stove is hot, we don't touch it with our bare hands.

Personally, I think that people grow through being challenged. But that's not the same as suffering. The latter implies some degree of pain and extreme hardship. The former is simply that which requires focus, dedication, etc., and will--from my perspective--only bring about mild frustration or anxiety at times.

But I could be completely wrong.

>>6121363
You're a woman, aren't you?

>>6121370

No.

>>6121363
>For example: Once we learn that the stove is hot, we don't touch it with our bare hands.

This brings up an issue of whether Nietzsche truly believed what he asserted, at least as it applies to himself. He avoided countless opportunities to maximize his suffering...

>>6121323
Nietzsche himself realised how insane his rationalizations were at the moment of his breakdown.

Torture any Nietszchean or Strinerist and they will all cry out in despair.

>>6121363
Nietzsche recognized that senseless pain was unbearable, he even noticed that this is the only thing humans can't seem to be able to bear. As long as suffering is supported by a sufficiently strong purpose or meaning, it is bearable. I guess you could say that Nietzsche's point is that you can make all pain bearable precisely by giving it sense. As long as you will that pain, as long as you affirm it as necessary part of your happiness, of your greatness, it is not only bearable but desirable.

>>6121363
But don't you attribute a positive value to your notion that suffering doesn't deserve one?

I've always taken Nietzsche to mean in this regard that the importance is not that you give a positive value to suffering but that you give a positive meaning to your life as it is for you in this moment. The more intense a life is the more living can be done. Most of the time you're "suffering" you're not thinking about the fact that your suffering is bad, you're intensely experiencing life by being engaged in the suffering because you're immediate experience is the most important and meaningful thing to you at that time.

>>6121404
I miss used you're because I'm one a phone.

Sage for no double bump.

>>6121416

you also misused misused you bloody retard.

>>6121432
Still on a phone. You got the context I used it in.

>>6121386
This. When Nietzsche embraced the horse it was a recognition of Schopenhauer being right.

Life is shit and compassion is the only answer.

Suffering is everything indicative of a finite existence, whether that be a macro existence of a universe, an earth, or life, or a micro existence of a relationship between two people, or simply a reminder of time passing you by. It is through these indications of finiteness that we begin to learn our true nature as a part of infinity, and to be drawn out of petty foibles and into the realm of the infinite, just as a lotus reaches through the mud, to arise into open space in pristine condition and beauty.

through this lens one can see where Nietzsche might have been coming from; that pain, or suffering, is needed because it's all there is to counter the beauty of life, so in it we learn to see, conceptually, the reflection of that beauty within ourselves - to strip away that which doesn't matter in order to reveal that which truly matters.

>>6121323
Yes
The weak will die
The strong will overcome their suffering

>>6121441
Nietzsche was sick by that time. Philosophy can't make a person comatose, which is where his illness landed him.

Doesn't that quote imply that life is more than suffering? If that's what we really thought than the greeting he uses as an example would seem normal and obvious to us, but it doesn't, because it's not what we believe when we're not sitting and reflecting one it.

>It is through these indications of finiteness that we begin to learn our true nature as a part of infinity

By why should we thing our place is in the infinity? What could you tell a man to convince him that his place was in some conceptualized version of infinity instead of his here and now?

>>6121472
Meant to link to >>6121455 before the greentext.

>>6121323
>that pic
>this thread

This world is truly hilarious.

>>6121472

We're two-part beings, one part finite flesh and one part infinite awareness. Why? Due to Time and Space being a fabric, that which is outside of Time and Space must be timeless and 'spaceless'; infinite. Since we are derived from that which is timeless, we consist of that which is timeless. This is the cause of much suffering, infinite awareness facing the idea of it's own death is frightening and unfathomable, causing social insanity.

>>6121363
>We are biologically designed, if you will, to avoid it.
You say it like this makes suffering bad
>implying defying biological desires and wills isn't the one thing that is inherently virtuous

>>6121489
What part of us is that which is timeless? Your body certainly isn't, and your subjective experience of mind, which is probably what you mean by "me" isn't either. Your experience of consciousness is wholly dependent on space and time. Events happen in space and find sequence in time, as do the processes of memory and introspection and anything else. Timelessness is a concept dreamed up by beings who only exist within time.

>>6121489
if there's no space, wouldn't there also be no time for the soul? in that case, why would you fear death, especially if it's then, rendered, an inconceivable paradox?

>>6121500

Um... There is a bit of an issue with your logic there bud.

> I must defy my biological programming! Only then can i be considered virtuous!

> I am biologically programmed to feel sympathy to children! Therefore i must punt all children! GRAAAR!

> I am biologically programmed to want to continue my existence via sexual reproduction! Therefore i must cut off my testicles with a rusty bread knife and punch every uterus i can see! GRAAAR!

> I am biologically programmed to avoid pain! Therefore i must put my hand on that hot stove for literally hours on end, causing untold damage to my arm! GRAAAR!

Defying your programmed biological instincts is all well and good but a lot of those actually have totally logical origins (well, actually all of them do, a small amount are merely no longer relevant) so going out into the world and defying them without presenting a better alternative makes no sense.

>>6121489


Why are people responding to this person?

I know this isnt exactly /sci/ but he opened his statement with the sort of nonsense that a hippie would want to print on a placard.

Hes either stupid or high. Ignore him until he stops being one or the other. Dont engage with him for fucks sake.

> Since we are derived from that which is timeless, we consist of that which is timeless.

I mean fucking what?

>>6121508
>Your experience of consciousness is wholly dependent on space and time
well it's good that you think that, but he seems to think otherwise! explain

>>6121517
I'm the guy that replied to the guy negatively above, but I still think his opinion I was worth posting.
Instead of going with my gut and dismissing him offhand I thought about what he said and it made me formulate a reason I didn't agree with him and articulate that in words which helped me understand it.

If that's not it, then what is that the pleasure of an online forum?

>>6121535
Masturbatory shitposting and dubs.

>>6121508

All of matter combined. If we think of God being the One and All, then all is the One God. If God is the timeless, spaceless ethereal outside of the time-space material, that which contains everything and all, then so be it - it must also contain it's own negation. It can only do such a thing by 'creating' an illusion of negation, a la a split of the ethereal into a higher vibration until it reaches a stage of degradable matter, by which point time is created as a vacuum inside infinity, through the proxy of matter. As matter evolved so did the eternal spirit evolve through matter, because how can it not? The negation/finiteness is merely an illusion. Humanity was willed by the spirit of the infinite, and is the core observer of it's own spirit.

>>6121508

There's always time for soul. See the illusion stated above, imagine yourself ascending an upward coil, away from your body and toward the stars, the bottom being your own excrement and the top being the Almighty of a new, reformed spirit - that which has faced it's own negation and dug itself out from the dirt.

>>6121517

It's ok.

>>6121528
Your actual experience of the world, visually and audibly, is dictated by space. You don't just hear a car honk, you also immediately have and idea of which direction the sound came from. It's the same sensation, it's not different.

You make sense of this sensory data only through the concept of time. "This happened, then the car honked. That must be why they honked" or "then car honked then it switched lanes".
None of this could be made sensible without time, you make sense of events as sequences.
Just try to imagine sensation without space or intelligible thought without time. We're incapable of it.

>>6121549
What can I say, I know how to shitpost.

>>6121323

>that picture

Why is God so apathetic and disdainful towards humans?

>>6121554
But why shoudl I believe that all that talk is truer or more immediate than my own subjective sensory experience?
Yeah you can argue it is with words, but when it comes down to it you just believe that because of your constitution in the moment. In 10 years you won't think the same way.
People always believe their assessment of the universe at any given time is right without aknologing the fact that it's already changed a countless amount of times before in their life, and each time it changed they believed they had arrived at a truth some degree higher than the last, which is itself just another sensation.

>>6121576

You've made many false assertions about me but it's good to know you keep an open mind; keep it open and don't close it, keep searching for truths and they'll come to you, If you're happy as you are then good for you, but see at whose expense you are happy by.

Life is a progression, and we have different words for the same thing - ultimately we are all searching for the same thing, we merely find it in different forms. A muslim will look at the words Allah Akbar and feel the same love a Christian feels when he sees the word of Jesus, yet when each sees to the other word, they will likely feel a sense of revolt, or a pang of a threat, no matter how deep I imagine it would be there. Yet, to the mind, they are ultimately the same essence.

So, you don't have to believe anything, but maybe one day you will feel the need to chase a truth and you will begin your journey, that's all.

>>6121558
to me, all that pic says is that god has a great sense of humor, and a good deity ought to have good taste in comedy

>>6121595

I think you made a funny post. Nice job. :)

>>6121591
the difference between us is that you believe in agency. You believe that we are some consistent being that stays the same while following a line of reasoning.

You can't believe your judgement of a line of reasoning without also believing that the 'judging you' is something outside the thought that analyzes it while remaining seperate.

>>6121558
the whole point of life is that it is not heaven. if bad things didn't happen, we would be in heaven, not life

>>6121483
This guy gets it.

>>6121612

Like it or bite it, all science is based on principles laid down time ago by people fully engaged with what you call agency. Many of the scientific revolutionaries were people engaged with the esoteric and the occult, and the elite practice much occultism.

Besides that, the big bang created space-time, and you cannot comprehend what is outside of that, but you can perhaps, through pragmatic reasoning, come to the conclusion that it was without time, or space. Referring to earlier, the product of your seed contains history dating back to the big bang, just as we are the product of the seed of that which created the big bang.

You can be the watcher of your thoughts and follies in order to parse what is good and what is not. Good is anything which brings you or those around you up the coil, towards that essence which is infinite, and that which is not good is anything which brings you or those around you down the coil, that which is concerned with the illusion of death.

>>6121323
/fit/ here, he's absolutely right.

>>6121363
"Did you ever say yes to a pleasure? Then you also said yes to all pain. All things are linked, entwined, in love with one another." — Nietzsche

>>6121323
is that nigga a basketball

>>6121643
>Like it or bite it, all science is based on principles laid down time ago by people fully engaged with what you call agency.

Did those people engaged in "agency" have any say in what thought proceeded the thought they were having in the moment? Did they decide how they would reason? What was more important to them, the values they put on things at that moment in time or the principals they had learned from "rationality" that are only applied during introspection?

>>6121661
Exactly. Pleasure as a concept doest exist without its negation.

>>6121657
I find it hard to believe anyone /fit/ can possibly do what they do without being pulled by an incentive of sexual gratification via envisioning the advent of your labors in the eyes of some love object. The pain is only the intrinsic, rationalized, reward supplementing for this external motivation.

What do you think? Can this love object be exchanged for some higher cause, like the state of Sparta, or something? Is it truly possible to lift strictly for your soul?

>>6121675

Name me one man who exercises to keep ‘healthy’ and is not merely focussed on the aesthetics of his body due to some compensation for lacking in another department, and I will commend him. I will commend him because he does not postulate this holier than thou attitude regarding the ‘sanctity’ of the human body when the truth lays in his playing an age old game of “monkey can hit things monkey appealing” caveman tactics of pre-communication courting.

>>6121674

You'd have to ask them yourself. Read Aristotle's apology for a refreshingly sound mind.

>>6121683
>not merely focussed on the aesthetics of his body
but the meaning of these aesthetics is strictly derived from some notion of sexuality, isn't it? Do you think one can maintain the practice of lifting for the aesthetic reward if he lives alone, isolated, somewhere?

>>6121683
Spoken like a true weak ass beta.

>>6121672

It's not a nigger; she's Asian.

Fucking racist MRAs polluting /lit/.

>>6121683
I am basically a full blown hermit and exercise because I keep weight on easier that way. I was getting dangerously skinny so lifting weights was recommended by my doctor to build appetite as well as to assist my body in holding any gains in weight for longer.

It has helped tremendously and I have reached a healthy weight.

>>6121683
I know a guy. Those are the dudes who usually stay away from roids (though not always some people really don't care about girls) but goes to the gym enough without centering their entire life around it. Some people really just want to challenge themselves and see how much they can improve. It basically becomes a competition with yourself as well as a way to let off stress(like all exercise that strangely enough is never usually given this negative label). I think that it depends on the person.

>>6121695

If it were an activity to keep him sane, then yes, but not to the extent that he would if he were around others, most likely.

>>6121697

Spoken like a true PUA, keep repping them negs brah!

>>6121698
What? Nigga is the non racist form of nigger that black people use and is a general term for a dude(or person), homie, or a dude
>Being this out of the loop
MRAs aren't usually racist btw, they're usually just sexist.
I love how you had to distinguish from being black(as if black=nigger) by saying she's asian though.

>>6121695
No one /fit/ lifts for girls/sex, and yes, lifting is all about commitment, self control and all the inner spirituality that comes with it.

>>6121715

It gets to a point where we are driven from such depths that it is difficult to identify why anybody does anything, but it can usually root back to evolutionary monkey brains a la mating. I'm 6, 4 and don't feel the need to work out, you'll see a pattern in that the shortest of men tend to go for the weights for the aesthetic, are likely egotistical, and most likely couldn't give two durbas about their health, whereas more 'sensible' persons are more likely to balance their fitness between cardio and weights. I prefer to channel stress into thought and mental exercises but that's just me.

>>6121711

>as well as to assist my body in holding any gains in weight for longer.

I didn't know lifting weights could do this; learn something new everyday.

>>6121323

Nietzsche is prone to exaggeration and half-truths. A degree of suffering is necessary for excellence, but too much is destructive.

>>6121698
shes a lil asian nigga basketball

you dont gotta be mean about it

>>6121729
>Nigga is the non racist form of nigger

>>6121785
You really don't listen to rap do you?

>>6121755
There are plenty of tall guys that lift...the same guy I speak of is like this and doesn't seen egotistical at all. In fact he;s rather sweet. Smart kid too.
If you want to cut, cardio is often preferred and better honestly.Everyone not obsessed with size("Muh cardio kills gains" myth) usually has a cardio day me included.

>>6121845
>white guy who listens to rap knows all about racism
got it

>>6121877
I'm not white but ok anon. I personally don't care when other races say it when rappers obviously don't care to stop themselves from saying it themselves.

>>6121877
under the guise of "we mean it in a different way" of course. Forgot to add that.

>>6121323

from The Birth of Tragedy:

>Could it be, perhaps, that the very feeling of superabundance created its own kind of suffering: a temerity of penetration, hankering for the enemy (the worthwhile enemy) so as to prove its strength, to experience at last what it means to fear something?

we require some degree of crisis in our lives to use our bodies, and therefore our minds, to their fullest potential. minor suffering like physical pain is nothing compared to the suffering of stagnancy in a state of "superabundance;" the former builds confidence of mind and hardness of body, whereas the latter leads to softness of both.

>>6121513
no

hes saying that if you are a slave to your desires and biological workings you might as well be a beast

man can inflict pain upon himself and defer pleasure which makes him unique among all of the beasts, why is the greatest virtue discipline: literally deferring present pleasure for future reward

>>6122017
>"I am going to redefine suffering so that even its absence is suffering, that way it will fit neatly into my philosophical narrative"

>>6121398
ding ding ding

>>6121323
That bitch is a goddamn bossfight

>>6121323
Pain gives quality to the soul, more pain more value less pain less value. All traditions says that perennial truth it's an ancient knowledge. To hate that idea is to refuse the idea of quality and hierarchy, is to hate the idea that something superior than mankind exists and evil in it's essence.

Nietzsches ENTIRE philosophy is about liftin, the reason he loved the Greeks is because they were the first civilisation to care about their body.

He's the ULTIMATE /fit/ philosopher.

>>6122917
Forgot pic

>>6121615

>the point of life is for us to suffer brutally. If we weren't suffering immensely, there would be no point.

Guess heaven is pointless.

>>6122946
Well, it goes nowhere, so yeah, pretty much.

>>6121386
>Stirnerist
When did Stirner say pain is good? I actually did not finish the book yet, but it doesn't sound like something Max would sa.

>>6123015
he doesn't

>>6122917
no

He who has a Why to live for can bear almost any How.

>>6121753
>No one /fit/ lifts for girls/sex, and yes, lifting is all about commitment, self control and all the inner spirituality that comes with it.
because you are too weak to achieve this without body-building