/lit/ - Literature

Alan Turing?

james crutchfield

>>6077723
Too gay

>>6077717
This:
>>6077723

>>6077773

If that's too gay I don't know what you're doing on /lit/

>>6077717
Oh look, it's the most pretentious person in the world again. He's the person all of /mu/ and /lit/ can only hope to be.

>>6077717
There's many. Even Wittgenstein joined in on the topic:
>Turing Machines are Humans who Calculate (Wittgenstein 1975 [1939]: 1096)

http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/computer-science/
http://www.cse.buffalo.edu/~rapaport/Papers/phics.pdf

Hofstadters book is good but its only some sort of mechanical academic writing. From the book I you can tell that his logic stuff its pretty much trying to solve the halting problem and other computer science enigmas

>>6077779
>Music genres I often like include some Spanish folk music (but not Flamenco), Latvian folk music, Swedish folk fiddling, Moroccan traditional music, Soukous, Balkan folk dance music, Turkish folk dance music, Turkish classical music, Armenian folk dance music, Georgian choral music, Indian classical music (I tend to enjoy Carnatic more than Hindustani), Javanese and Balinese gamelan music, Vietnamese traditional music, Japanese court music (Gagaku), Japanese folk dance music (Minyo), Andean folk music (except when the words are in Spanish and about romantic rejection), and traditional US folk music when it is lively.

>/mu/ BTFO

damn op u sure are dumb, saying RMS is a "computer science philosopher" is like saying Marx was an industrial philosopher. they're both just jews with huge beards who want you to give away your labor and property to lazy people.

I recently made a thread about "Quantum computing since Democritus" by Scott Aaronson, which is a bit of philosophy of (quantum) computer science and how it relates to our view of reality... But no-one replied.
Matti Tedre might fit too, but the field "philosophy of computer science" is very badly defined and too young for there to be something like *the major work*.

Here's a nice paper: http://staffweb.worc.ac.uk/DrC/Courses%202006-7/Comp%204070/Reading%20Materials/scheutz%20Comp%20Philo%20Issues.pdf

And here's a book about the philosophy of computer science: http://www.cse.buffalo.edu/~rapaport/Papers/phics.pdf

Stallman is just a zealot who has lost his fight 20 years ago and now forces South American children to eat his toe-nails.

>>6077814
>let me just list random "world music" in a pathetic attempt to sound erudite

>>6077884
Stallman is the nerdest of fucking nerds. Look at his freaking face. Does that look like the face of someone who would try to look cool?

>>6077875
Stallman is a hero, and you are a nobody.

>>6077875
>Scott Aaronson
Disgusting

Verbose, navel-gazing midget with an immensely irritating fanbase that constantly name-drops links to his "disproofs" of various things.

>>6077814
>Andean folk music (except when the words are in Spanish and about romantic rejection),
Stallman confirmed for not knowing what he's talking about

>>6077875
Multi-billion IT businesses depend on GNU to put their firmware into your shitty coffee machine or to control lasers to weld your crappy car. I know because I work for one. Be more thankful to Stallman-Sensei.

>>6077717
Hard to say, the picture's pretty zoomed-in.

>implying chomsky didn't have the most significant impact on CS

>>6077957

I'm a rationalist radical feminist and therefore have a love-hate relationship with Slate Star Codex and friends, but aren't you just ad homineming to the max?

Has Aaronson actually done anything bad?

(BTW I'm not confusing Alexander (author of Slate Star Codex) and Aaronson, it's just that they're kind of related.)

>>6078023
>Has Aaronson actually done anything bad?
Yes. He employs his nerd-charisma to attract, gather, and finally convert, fundamentally inept automatons that merely flirt and deify the idea of rationalism; later to dwell under the illusion that they too in fact understand something. When in fact they do not. They are automatons such as you.

>look up Slate Star Codex
>Elsewhere, especially on Less Wrong, I blog under the nickname “Yvain”.
>Less Wrong

Literally dropped. Take your cultish, transhumanist friends and go elsewhere (>>>/x/ or >>>/sci/, preferably).

>>6077814

>Spanish folk music
>but not Flamenco

How autistic can you be?

>>6077717

Tarn Adams

>>6077991
Multi-billion IT businesses are not using the GNU license for their own software since all software based on GNU-licensed software has to be GNU-licensed itself, and you can't really sell GNU-licensed software since you always have to open the code. That is economics 101.

>>6077717
Zuse - first freely programmable binary computer and the Nazis had it and they were too stupid to get it. His paintings were also pretty nice - picrelated.

mencius moldbug

>>6078098
>just more ad hominem

do you even have an opinion or are you just mad?

>>6078130
>selling software licenses is the only way to make money in the IT world.

Try again.

>>6077717
Donald E Knuth. Obscure name outside of CS but if you study it you will sooner or later find out about him.

>>6078139
>not understanding that I'm talking about selling software itself

Read again?

>>6077773
Turing was a god you fucking imbecile

>>6078098

I'm not even a LessWrong member.

Slate Star Codex has very thoughtful articles.

You sound bitter over something.

I've had a lot of frustration in the IRC channels for LessWrong/SlateStarCodex though, so I guess I kind of get where you're coming from.

>>6078149
I see what you're trying to do: "if I keep on posting xkcd comics and defend the clichés of computer science I will surely ruse someone who will rail against STEMtards",

but it's not working out and you can stop it now

>>6078130

Guess what software Google's servers are running on.

RMS is one of the most influential people in CS/software history.

>>6078167
Yeah, but Google's product is advertising, not software, so you're not really making your point - Bill Gates didn't become the world's richest man by using the GNU license.

>>6078147
but we are talking about using GNU.

>>6078167
Not only is influential in the tech field, He is influential in politics and culture.

toady

>>6078175

When did you sneak selling software into the discussion?

Creating software should be a service job. You get paid to create new software or improve existing software. The current economic model into which software is painstakingly stuffed by shipping binary blobs, obscuring source code, DRM, etc., leads to an incredibly nasty waste of effort, just like the rest of the capitalist system. We could have done without another idiotically wasteful industry.

guy who wrote methaphysics of virtual reality

can't think of his name and too tired to check

>>6078167
They are running Google Web Services 2.0, a proprietary web server exclusively developed internally by and for Google, originally based on Apache. This has what to do with Stallman, exactly?

>>6078198
so you want everyone to be software serfs, endlessly tilling the code and giving the surplus to the landlord? you never want to see a programmer own the product of their own labor? damn, you are are stupid, but then again I was 20 years old once too...wait until you bust your ass writing some actually useful code and then decide...Stallman wants me to give this away FOR FREE? Is he planning to pay my students loans for me? Oh, no? Then I have to charge, bitch.

>>6078219
What operating system do the servers run?
What operating system do their programmers use?
What compiler and other programming tools do they use?
You cannot be this ignorant.

>>6078227
Fuck off.

>>6078165
The Turing Machine is a fascinating model.

>>6078245
>What operating system do their programmers use?

Every Google engineer I've ever seen used a Macbook with OSX.

>>6078258
plebs.

>>6078262
Dude, the only relevance Stallman ever had was GCC, but no one serious uses that shit anymore...

I think there's room for the discussion of Computer Science as it relates to morality.

I've long considered that suffering and pleasure might be typed. That is, you can't compare all suffering and pleasure in a meaningful way. It's good against utilitarianism.

Consider the classic question "Is it morally correct to brutally torture a man for 40 years to universally eliminate a minor inconvenience experienced by a large number of people, such as stubbing one's toe?" Most utilitarians would argue that, yes, it is, if you can be sure that the net pleasure is positive. I would argue that it's actually a type error. You can't compare the two in a meaningful way.

>>6078272
being this ignorant.
go back to your notepad.

Brian Cantwell Smith is a computer scientist and a philosopher. Very much "philosophy of computer science," although it's more general than that also. Very original and interesting stuff.

>>6078198
>binary blobs waste effort

actually binary blobs are fucking great, all of the highly optimized and well designed object in the OSX/iOS libraries are a joy to work with and I never have to waste one second looking at the internal code, which is how object oriented software is supposed to work..."free software" is a relic from the ancient procedural days, and Stallman even as much when he talks about how "back in the old days everything was open source", yeah, back when every program was just some random collection of functions and the only guys with access to computers wore labcoats and had ivy league degrees (like Stallman), let's face it, Stallman is actually just mad about the personal computing revolution, that made rich upper west side high priests of computing like him irrelevant after Steve Jobs in a Lutheran revolt against computing tyranny put the power of the microprocessor into the hands of families all across America and the world. If we listened to Stallman, there would still be ten computers in the country and they would be on military bases or elite universities with big iron gates in front locking out plebs like YOU! wake the fuck up and thing for yourself, bro. Google is one of the biggest corporations on the fucking planet with sinister links to the US military-industrial complex who follow the computing paradigm of "big iron" server clusters from the era of Stallman's youth. You've been sold a bill of goods man. Instead of giving away your hard work for free, put that shit in the app store so millions of people around the world can benefit from it instead of a few nerds with github accounts and you can finally get paid and move out of your mom's basement.

>>6078258
>OSX
Guess what amount of GNU software OS X has.
Tip: a lot.

>>6078272
>GCC
>had
GCC is still kicking. Other than that,
>what is Glibc
>what is Autotools, Yacc, Bison, coreutils, findutils, grep, sed, awk, GRUB, and pretty much the fucking rest of GNU

Stallman/GNU are incredibly influential.

>>6078460
>no emacs
fuck you.

>>6078281
Thats pretty interesting, got anything else?

>>6078485
Normies don't use/appreciate Emacs. I included only things which is almost directly relevant to anyone working in IT. Especially at a place like Google where you can bet on 99% of the programmers using GNU.

>>6078460
>>OSX
>Guess what amount of GNU software OS X has.
>Tip: a lot.

Guess again, retard. OSX is based on BSD, which, guess what? Uses the BSD License, durr. And Apple has been using the BSD licensed LLVM compiler for a while now, hell even FreeBSD switched to LLVM. I don't think you realize how much people are moving away from GNU and its stupid shit. You seriously sound like some computer science freshmen who just woke up from a 10 year coma. Linux is soooo 2003.

>>6078526
>MFW OS X ships with even GNU Emacs, leave aside coreutils and shit

>>6078111
>>6078192
As much as I love Toady, he can barely code

>>6078486
Perhaps there might be types in general morality as well, which could aide in making moral decisions to some extent.

Taking /lit/'s favorite problem of the train about to kill 3 people you could divert to kill one, each possible course of action might have a different type of morality. So pulling the lever conforms to a "Greater Good" type, not pulling it conforms to a "No evil action" type, and attempting to derail the train by pulling it as it traverses over the junction is a "No Compromises" type. All of these options may be impossible to compare in meaningful ways.

>>6078485
>>6078500
emacs is an obscure operating system which lacks a decent text editor.

>>6078557
Emacs's text editor is amazing, as is the rest of the OS.

>>6078612
even when emacs was at its peak (about 20 years ago) half the people used vi, so even then it was never this ubiquitous shit everyone had to use

>>6077717
A philosopher of a subject is like a round circle. A philosopher deals with everything, otherwise you're just a specialist.

>>6078623
vi is ubiquitous because it's fucking tiny and specified by POSIX alongside ed and ex. These are tools as tiny as grep, sed, and awk, to put things in perspective.

Don't confuse it with Vim, which is an actual "programmers' text editor" or w/e.

>>6078626
many of the best philosophers do attempt to deal with everything at once. but many philosophers, realizing that philosophy requires rigor and determination, often elect to pursue one particular topic, in the service of the long-term pursuit of general philosophical truth. so there are indeed "philosophers of X"; contemporary analytic philosophy is structured around such distinctions. "philosophy of computer science" is no different.

>>6077717
>implying Stallman can be considered a philosopher
Most of computer science is derived directly from analytic philosophy, so anyone who contributed to type theory (e.g. Bertrand Russell) is a computer science philosopher. Also logicians like Haskell Curry, Alfred North Whitehead, John Von Neumann count as "computer science philosophers".

>>6078671
as a professional analytic philosophers, it's not entirely fair to say that computer science is "derived directly" from analytic philosophy. computer science is derived from mathematical logic, almost all of whose originators and developers were /also/ philosophers, and whose research was partly motivated by philosophical questions. but it's important to realize that frege, russell, whitehead, turing, godel, and others were all also formally trained mathematicians.

>>6077717
Alan Kay? I'm taking a class taught by him this quarter and he's got some good things to say.

>>6078645
>contemporary analytic philosophy
analytic(i.e anglo-saxon) philosophy is another thing which is like a round circle

>>6078130
please try to educate yourself before posting

>>6078843
>Multi-billion IT businesses are not using the GNU license for their own software

>Multi-billion IT businesses are not using the GNU license for their own software

read it again shitlord, he said "for their own software", sure, multibillion dollar businesses like Google and IBM are more than happy to exploit your GPL code for their own profits but if you notice all the code they right is proprietary as shit...face it, you've been had, they tricked you into working for free for some faceless megacorporations. if you believe in workers rights then you should oppose GPL based exploitation

>>6078848
> if you believe in workers rights then you should oppose GPL based exploitation

No, GPL opened great alternatives for those workers who dont want to be fucked in the ass by big corps.

>>6078101
Spanifag here, Flamenco is awful.

>>6078870
by working for IBM and Google for free? Cool man, I bet you think being a 4chan janitor is a real cool privilege and not just unpaid labor by a cheap ass social media company

>>6078896
your vision of the issue is very reduced.

educate yourself first please.

>>6078915
no u

>>6078544
you need to get your head checked

>>6077717
Dijkstra is to CS as Feynman is to theoretical physics

>>6078848
actually not true, most free software contributions are done by contributors paid by corporations

>>6078130
You can run software on GNU systems without opening the code, unless you adapt GNU code. You can not change their libraries or drivers without opening the code. To put it simply, you can run closed software on systems like Linux and you can develop closed drivers as well as long as it's 100% your code. I've worked in such companies for the last 15y, when I started there were not too many but now it's a VERY mainstream embedded system. How do you think Android could have come into existence ?

>>6078974
that's why working on GPLed bullshit is in no way shape or form "sticking it to the man" or whatever kind of silly leftist fantasy you have about free software, you want to "stick it the man" found a disruptive startup and bankrupt their bitch ass, or you always contribute to their code base for free and uh, help their shareholders maximize profits of your free labor,that will teach them a lesson!

>>6078995
most embedded systems use BSD because they don't want to have to ship a fucking linux CD with every piece of medical equipment or whatever they produce...the GPL is fucking stupid.

>>6077814
>Gagaku
just looked that up. this shit is fucking cool

stallman really is annoying, though. he dissed gregorian chant, so he is not my nigga at all.

>>6078889
Spainfag here, self-hating retards like you deserve to die. Flamenco is great.

Philosophers of cybernetics?

>>6078997
there's something to be said about convincing large corporations to produce massive volumes of software free for public use - tools that are available for anyone to use, not just those who can afford thousands of software engineers

>>6079850
but that's not really a victory, they want everyone to program for free and they sell "services" based on those programs...it's like how spotify sells you a streaming music service while paying the artists who make the music a fraction of a penny per play, essentially making their creative output worthless and reducing them to mere laborers "performing" their own creations...it's too much to get into on a cartoon imageboard but you could check out "Who Owns The Future" by Jaron Lanier, if you want a critical assessment of "free culture" by someone who "gets" but ultimately rejects open source. Open Source is a road to serfdom, if you want to be free you need to own the product of your own labor.

He really does look like a fat harmony korine

>>6079885
An incredibly gross mischaracterization.

The "service" commonly referred to when asked how free software might make money means technical support.

Spotify is in fact proprietary software, and the model that you're referring to (Service as a software substitute) is emphatically denounced as another method of taking away your freedom.

Please read
https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/who-does-that-server-really-serve.html

>>6079885
i guess i should add that i do like most open source licenses like bsd that let you use the code for whatever you want, because it just means we all have that much more code to use, i don't however like the gpl model that says if you manage to write something cool and useful you are compelled by law to send it to IBM and Google,

>>6079910
Are you trolling or retarded?

The difference between BSD and GPL is that IBM and Google CAN take your BSD code, use it in their programs, and not pay you a single cent, or give anything back to the community.

While the GPL prevents them from from using your code unless they release their program as free software or unless they purchase it from you under another license.

>compelled by law to send it to IBM and Google
Is complete and utter bullshit because both licenses are open source, meaning anybody (including IBM and Google) can look at your code whenever they want. You don't send anything to anybody, you release it to the world.

>>6079901
man, you are so naive...i'm talking about the content that spotify serves, hell, spotify probably "runs linux" on the server side, but again, who gives a shit, that's not a victory, my point was spotify...ok maybe you can't relate to musicians work so let's say amazon, what do you think of the new amazon licensing model for ebooks that let's people read on a subscription? wouldn't you like to get paid for people buying your books instead of just having amazon (using a giant farm of linux boxes no doubt) rent them out and take all the cash for providing the "service" and leaving with dick all? when companies sign up for a "support contract" for some open source database backend, do you support they will go to you? or to IBM? but then suppose you make some innovative new database improvement that outperforms IBMs product...not for long, you are legally compelled to send it to them for free, have fun competing with their third world support staff in south asia to "provide support"

oh, and this "provide support" model is a bad idea just from a purely software engineering perspective since it incentivises writing difficult to use software with poor user experience because it gets you more customers for "support" when no one can figure out how to use the shit...you've swallowed the propaganda whole, wake up my dude

>>6079935
Content distribution has nothing to do with the free software movement. I agree that streaming is a shitty model but that's completely orthogonal to the notion of being able to do what you want with software you use.

If you honestly have no idea what you're talking about, you could at least write grammatically. I honestly can't decipher what "when companies sign up for a "support contract" for some open source database backend, do you support they will go to you?" is supposed to mean. Failing that, don't say anything at all.

You do make a good point about the incentives of paying for support, but if you don't write good code then nobody's going to use it anyway. Plus the nature of it being open-source means that anybody can make a better fork, and users will flock to that.

>>6077717
>philosopher of the computer sciences
you have to define what you mean by this

there is an emerging field called the philosophy of information (floridi)

>>6079956
are you honestly so fucking stupid you can't see the relationship between "free" streaming content like spotify and amazon subscriptions and open source? no wonder you believe this stuff religiously...

>saying "orthogonal"

i now know you are a very skinny pimply nerd who probably doesn't actually do any software development and despite being a devout believer in open source has a windows partition on his so-called linux box filled with proprietary video games.

fuck the fuck off

>>6077814
The turdburglar specifies he likes "Javanese and Balinese gamelan music" when Gamelan music exclusively comes from those areas, so it was pointless for him to specify.

>>6079973
There is no relationship and I'm sorry that you can't write properly and that common words scare you.

>>6079982
>stretching the definition of orthogonal to fit it into casual conversation to try sound smart

entry level mistake, little autist

kill yourself

Kolomogorov 's work in complexity and probability edges into the realm of philosophy, and he's one of the greatest geniuses of the past century.

>>6079992
>getting this triggered over someone using the word orthogonal

>>6079992
sorry to say this but his use of "orthogonal" is 100% acceptable. in contemporary parlance, "x is orthogonal to y" means, basically, "issues pertaining to x are unrelated/irrelevant to issues pertaining to y"

it's also pretty embarrassing to fault someone for word choice. it basically shows you have nothing of substance to say. hth

>>6080107
choosing to word the orthogonal is a statement like wearing a fedora, faulting someone for using orthogonal is no worse than faulting someone for hat choice, good day, sir.

>>6077717

Luciano Floridi

>>6077717
Jaron Lanier, 100%

Jaron
http://thecolbertreport.cc.com/videos/bjwnn1/jaron-lanier

Eliezer Yudkow- ahahahahaha

>>6080156
lol

>>6080156

>Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality

good fuck

>>6080156
The man is a supreme genius and acts rationally at all times.

Nobody has mentioned

_why the lucky stiff

I thought I was on /g/, since recently there have been many stallmanu haters there.

Go fuck yourselves retards. This thread isn't about "hurr durr le cheese eating man", it's about philosophy in CS.

>>6080696
I have no idea what the hell you would even call _why.

The closest thing I can think of is "some sort of bard."