/lit/ - Literature

>>6022654
Yes, it's called not bitching about inane questions on your favourite Tibetan cartography dating website

>>6022683
I only come to this Czechoslovakian woodcut website because everywhere else is to slow.

there are so many books you will never read that you should feel retarded for wasting time with a book you don't at least find somewhat worthy of finishing.

>>6022705
I enjoy the story and the concepts presented, but the ideology behind it is so dumb it makes me want to scream.

>>6022738

what are you too old for a bedtime story?

hey look guys i'm reading heinlein isn't that cool but he had some pretty crazy ideas though right XD

>>6022654
It's a polemic, against the notion of enforced martial service, advocating a voluntary system backed through reward. It's not one that's particularly well thought through but at least it recognises flaws inherent in slavery..

>>6022654
>Can I get some advice on how to read books I find ideologically repulsive?
Just pretend you're reading satire!

>>6022738
I concur, I hate Heinlein for that. Each of his books just exists to describe a new ideology he apparently just came up with on the toilet, and all of them are so retarded they want to make me scream.

What's even worse is the fanboys on the internet who run around and keep on listing them as their favorite author, or put him on "n best SF books" lists - I hope for these people they haven't re-read him since age 15.

i liked it :)

>>6022654
>Can I get some advice on how to read books I find ideologically repulsive?

>>6022654
is your problem with heinlein's presentation of ideology or the human factions state ideology, the aliens ideology, or the various individuals respective ideologies?

>>6022876
I Personally detest the people who takes his political views seriously enough to consider them actual ideologies and perfectably acceptable viewspoints. Knew a guys who had a hard on for military dictartorships because he read the book and considered the majority of people (himself excluded) were so stupid that he felt 'they' should all be put under military rule.

>>6023015
your friend is right though

>>6022654

You could try not being a bitch. You don't have to jerk off to it. Why would you want to close your mind off to different views anyway? Not everyone thinks like you. In fact, most people don't think like you. Deal with it. Unless you are incredibly weak-willed, it's not like you have to worry you'll get converted. And why would you be repulsed by the fact that someone thinks differently to you?

>>6023022
Hello Mr. Edgy McEdgelord.

>>6023015
My grandfather fought for Franco and then for Mussolini. All for glorious fascism and he never regretted it. Your friend is right.

"Muh freedom" is overrated anyway. Liberals are okay with having their freedom to earn money or speak freely (hate speech laws are common enough around the world) curbed, so who really gives a shit. They throw away plenty of freedoms to live in the society they want to.

>>6022738
Then kill yourself, you big babby. Also there is no ideology in a book about a future. You can link fascism, capitalism and communism to the greeks at some point and that would make you unable to read the greeks since one of those ideologies would hurt your feelings.

>>6023047
while i'm sure your "humour" makes you feel more comfortable, without actually confronting the points he raised you have failed to do anything constructive. perhaps your opinion isn't as informed as your belief in it?

I largely accept Heinlein's ideals

but I'm not physically revolted while reading lefty shit, so man up, pinko

>>6022869
I actually thought it was satire the first time I read it... Though now I appreciate the ideas he has in this book even if I don't want it in real life

>>6023052
'Liberals' isn't really a meaningful political term in the way you use it, given how broad and poorly defined it is, not to mention that it's a term used both to describe economic and social attitudes that vary greatly across time and space, but I'm gonna go ahead and assume you mean 'liberal' in the sense of left-wing on social issues as well as economic ones as per the definition that I have most often seen used by Americans.

Freedom is overrated anyway. And what do you consider overrated specifically? I believe the democracy movements in places like Myannmar would probably disagree with you. Having a well defined set of laws to protect personal safety and property is something I'd consider fundamental for freedom. A set of laws limiting government power and defining the rights of the individual is the basis on which most democratic countries are built, and ensure, among other things, that you as an individual cannot be persecuted without reason. If we remove the restraint on government power, as is one cornerstone of fascism, we are left with a system in which any citizen can be persecuted at any time for any reason, removing all subsequent rights of private ownership and protection under the law.

You say that hate speech laws and redestribution of income (I assume) is throwing away freedom and 'librals' (again, who are they? In my country what we define as a liberal operates on the right side of the political spectrum, not someone on the left) are for these. Disreagarding the variations over time and space these assertions are rather meaningless. But I'll indulge you. Being pro-limitations of freedom of speech can be a result of many things. I'm persoanlly not for it, but I can see where the issue comes up. Is freedom to practice religion hindered by the right of others to slander this religion? Can a hierachy of freedoms be created? If a politician holding a public office talks ill of certain groups can he/she rightly be expected to guard the rights and respect the freedoms of that group? I don't claim to have a definite answer, I recognize the difficulty of the question and stick to my own opinions rather than generalize my respons into a meaningless slander of ill defined but supposedly opposed political groups.

1/2

>>6023159
I recognize that people will give up certain goods in order to favour other goods. However saying that 'liberals' are willing to give up the 'freedom to earn money' implies that said liberals are against a market economy. The definition of an economic liberal would be someone who is for an open market economy, making that point rather confusing in itself. I might add that fascism, as Moussolini practiced it, wasn't actually for an open market. The fascist economic model, sometimes labelled the Third Alternative due to opposing both communism and capitalism, was based on state, unions and industrial sector working together for the common good. Of course as both unions and buisnesses were ultimatively under the state's boot this ultimatively meant that the market was unions were expected to meet buisness demands while buisness could rely on state support in negotiations, meaning the production apperatus didn't really improve at all as it could always rely on the cheap labour provided by the state controlled union rather than actually having to innovate and improve production. Fascist Italy wasn't really an industrial economic powerhouse, neither was Peron's Argentina or Junta Brazil to name some other examples. Moreover it certainly didn't allow for much freedom of the worker or anybody else.
So what you are saying is that freedom is overated, yet you do not actually put up any alternative, do you? Can facism create more wealth than liberalism? Doubtful. Can it secure the rights of the individual better? By its very nature no, it can't.

>>6023057
See above please. I certainly don't recognize 'Fascism is awesome because my grandfather thought so' as very constructive, nor do I consider it an attack on my political views with the ability to shake my faith in said views. I've tried to formulate why, although given the anti-intellectual nature of fascist ideologies this might very well be futile, making me reluctant to push it any further. Rest assured that nothing I've read so far has really managed anything but to confirm views I had and will continue to hold.

2/2

>>6023164
>>6023159
great post, quality content!

>>6023159
Liberals are right wing in my country too. It has some vague "leftie" meaning in the US. I can't believe you wrote a reply that long. Why?

>>6023159
>>6023164
are you a girl?

>>6023180
Basically for the sheer hell of it. Those fascist guys just rub me the wrong way and before I knew it I was writing 3000+ characters.

>>6023188
No. Why?

>>6023213
I am that "fascist guy" btw. I'm not really a fascist. My grandfather was unashamedly a fascist. I don't know why you'd get so mad over this shit, though.

I don't think fascism is "anti-intellectual" either. What a moronic thing to say.

>>6023225
I 'get mad over this shit' because some random anon spews shit. At least try to be consistent, first you agree that people are dumb and should be suppresed, then you're not really a fascist, only your grandfather was.

And saying that fascism is anti-intellectual is 'a moronic thing to say'? You wit is impressive. I assume you have some actual arguments to back up this assertion that for some reason doesn't need to actually be presented and/or explained.

Fascism was a project of brawn over brains, if communists or capitalists, jews or democrats are against you kill them all rather than actually let your arguments triumph over theirs. 'Great leaders' like Mousollini were hailed as being great precisely because they weren't intellectuals, they were naturally superior and suited for leadership. Jesus, in Germany the periodic table of elements was officially declared to be useless because it was designed by a jew. The scientists who made Germany's rockets used it anyway, meaning the German nazis were actually living in a make believe world where 'jew science' was inferior, but was relied upon to make the wunderwaffen that'd win the war. Read a book on fascism before you make useless assertions.

Not that I expect a person with your attitude to actually try and make a reasonable counter-point. I assume of course that you are so incredibly intelligent that oyu don't actually have to refute any of my points with actual arguments, or rather you've convinced yourself you could refute my points so easily that it wouldn't be worth your time. Have a nice fantasy time, now move along.

>>6023170
Thanks man.

>>6023259

>>6023259

Serious question: is this your first week on 4chan?

Now I understand why you can't even read an old SF novel without getting buttmad.

>>6023180
Those aren't right-wing, those are disgusting capitalist globalists. Real right-wing is conservative.

i also tried to take heinlein ATM and i found he really rubbed me up the wrong way. suggest you find a gentler method OP.

>>6023342
Classical liberalism. Look it up, kiddo. The American meaning is modern and apart from its historical use.

>>6023326
My god, being passionate about something immidiatly draws you to assume I'm easily offended? I don't like Heinlein, I feel strongly about it. 'Muh, buttmad' is a pathethic respons.

And no, not my first week on 4chan. Although I don't take the kind of pride in being a long time anon as you imply one should.

>>6022683
>>6022691

stop wasting your time on this Italian trumpeteer postal network and read some fucking literature

>>6023458
Dude you're clearly pretty rattled over this whole thing. I don't think this is the right website for you.

>>6023052
>freedom
>HEY LETS VOTE FOR BREAD AND CIRCUSES WHILE THE PLANET BURNS AROUND OUR EARS

>>6023767
> is this your first week on 4chan?
> I don't think this is the right website for you.

neither for you, I think http://boards.4chan.org/b would be more your style

>>6024011
>Makes shit thread
>Gets angry enough to type out whole paragraphs scolding anonymous users on 4chan when they don't provide stimulating discussion

The thread ended here >>6022992

>>6023326
The times they are a changin'. Racist 4chan is dying off. Thank fuck.

>>6023053
>>6023045
If i was a bitch, I would have just stopped reading it already. I want to finish it and I was hoping you guys would be of some help. Im slated to read Rand next and I expect much of the same reaction.

>>6023012
Definitely the presentation.

If I have to read the phrase "FREEDOM ISN'T FREE!" or "THE TREE OF LIBERTY MUST BE WATERED WITH THE BLOOD OF PATRIOTS". one more time, I don't know what ill do.

>>6022654
Considering that Heinlein also wrote The Moon Is A Harsh Mistress and Stranger In A Strange Land, assuming that every book he writes represents his own views seems unwise.

>>6024151
realizing this is true is one of the only things that keeps me here after being too old for this place for years now

>>6024329
Oh my, what will you do

>>6024365
Go full burger

>>6024331
>The Moon Is A Harsh Mistress

God I hated that book. It went like this.

>Hey guys, turns out libertarianism is awesome IF you have an all-knowing and all-powerful artificial intelligence solving all your problems for you also the decisions are actually made by a very small group of people, the rest must obey said group AND the computer

Yeah fuck you Heinlein.

keking hard at Americans thinking their "liberals" are left wing

They have two right-wing political parties and don't even know it, this is hilarious

>>6024414
>hating books
Can't you accept the books premise for the amount of time youre reading it to understand the train of tought that went into writing it?

>>6024424

Pretty much. The right tries to control discourse through feigned interest in family values, and the left tries to control discourse through feigned condemnation of hate speech.

In the Information Age the real power comes from controlling the narrative. It's all one big power play.