/lit/ - Literature

The noble savage is a western myth.

The noble savage is a stupid idea.
However, yes, I would much rather have grown up in a tribe in the middle of the Amazon; as dirty, dangerous, and smelly that might be.
I don't think the savage is more noble, I'd just rather live that way.

>>5983553
Probably not real and I wouldn't. Too much stuff to do here.

>>5983634
i hate fags like you
they think they're "in-tune" but are really just delusional
you'd probably be eaten alive

>>5983641
That's not even what he's saying.

>>5983601
This, it is both the root of colonial racism and of modern identity politics, retarded as fuck.

>>5983648
how the fuck do you know ugly?

no. i like bugs away from my orifices.

Svetlana sucks lemons across from me

http://www.amazon.com/The-Ecological-Indian-Myth-History/dp/0393321002

the concept of the novel savage is often distorted but the basic premise underlying it is correct

as for the 2nd question no but I wish society and people in general were closer to nature and spent more time living out in the wilderness

>>5983655
If he was the "in-tune fag" you imagine, he'd be gone, offline and living in a hut in the jungle or wherever.
Instead he's only looking back at the way humans lived, not unlike the nostalgia for ancient Rome or something.

>>5983687
well then he's just a bitch who needs to take initiative.
Either way i hate his kind

I wonder what the world looks like to uncontacted tribes.

IF living is a savage is so great, why did we create civilization? And you know there's nothing stopping you from going out and living in the woods either, you know

>>5983660
and I am progressing abominably

Yeah if you like starving to death because you can't eat because your jaw is so swollen from impacted wisdom teeth. You also had a twenty five percent chance of dying from violence. Life in tribes sucked, you have no idea how good it is just to be able to take shit and flush it away

I think it's for the better that we shelter them from our way of life

all those natural resources are a pain to collect, refine, ship, sell, etc.

not to mention always checking my cellphone!

sheesh, but this is my white man's burden I guess

>>5983715
And I do not know my own way to the sea

i think we should genocide those kinds of tribes

Rousseau was a pussy

>>5983759
who are we to decide what's best for them
fucking condensing prick, they aren't zoo animals

how about, you know, we contact them and tell them about the world and start trading with them and bringing in medicines

or just quarantine them like zoo animals so the white man can feel good while they die of easily curable diseases or infections

I bet half the fucking women die in childbirth

>>5983664
Ok Thoreau, have fun wid' dat. You could easily say that yet would still be so reliant on aspects of civilized society to properly experience "living out in the wilderness"

>>5983786
it's cool to know that there are still tribes like that in the world

also trading implies they have something to give us, which they don't

>>5983786
you're going to give them medicine, thus increasing their population, without giving them access to more/better food sources? they will all die of starvation if their population increased. you are sick!

and what, you're going to trade them an ipad and a ford f150 for some seashells or whatever? what are they going to do with an ipad or a ford f150? they have no way to charge or refuel or repair. these items are utterly useless to them

>>5983742

>Yeah if you like starving to death because you can't eat because your jaw is so swollen from impacted wisdom teeth.
doesn't sound realistic, they could pull out teeth you know

>You also had a twenty five percent chance of dying from violence.
the number is made up, admit it

>you have no idea how good it is just to be able to take shit and flush it away
you never lived in nature did you? you can take shit and go away
i lived on a small desolate island with a few other people for several months a couple of times and there it was way worse, we literally had no place to take shit except a tiny bit of a very rocky beach at one side (other side quickly became impossible to pass and its passable part was well seen from our camp) and one should have been careful not to stumble into others because there was our main route to the top of the island in the very side of the beach (no we couldn't live on the top of the island, it was quite hard to reach even afoot and with a rope, we couldn't get our stuff there). still wasn't that bad, it's much better when you have plenty of space, not several hundred meters of passable beach. on the bright side, ocean flushed for us

>>5983708
1. drive to a remote rural location.
2. get a hammer and whack yourself in the head 'til unconscious.
3. when you wake up from a successful whack try to stand up.
4. you are now uncivilised, enjoy.

>"Crazed savages, they were. Ate the meat right off the carcass. What they bloody well need is some civilization from the white man. Damned noble in their own right, mind; a kind of primal spirit that one can't help but admire."

>>5983852
>>5983827
stupid responses

>>5983641
>Would you have rather grown up in the Amazon
>Would you move to amazon and live like a tribesman

Can you comprehend?

>Go about naked all day
>Share all work and wealth
>Fuck as desired
> Spend time with family or hunting with bros
>Psychedelics encouraged
What's not to love?

Only on /lit/ you would find this crap.

>>5983742
>twenty five percent chance of dying from violence.

most ways of dying are awful and painful anyway.

Actually dying being old in a bed with doctors trying too keep you alive while extending the pain should be worse.

>>5983856
kkekk

This has nothing to do with literature
Hegel gang

>>5983761
but the saltiest sea knows its own way to me.

>The noble savage is a colonial myth.
>Yes because when the white man was murdering all all the brown people, he was doing it because he was jelious of how much better their lives were.

The noble savage concept has some truth in it. It became popular during the colonial era DESPITE colonialism and racism. Some of the white settlers, when confronted with the other, realized that maybe their culture wasn't the best. The concept was never the mainstream (and still isn't) but has persisted because a lot of people are rightly dissatisfied with western society.

That said, if some random white kid goes to run off to live in the amazon, he's going to die a painful death. The idea of him somehow becoming a better Indian than the Indians and saving a native tribe from other white people with modern weapons is even more rebellious. You have to be be raised like this. Civilized people are dependent on the society that raised them.

>>5984154
Even more ridiculous rather.

-take off all your clothes
-burn all ID
-stay awake for 48 hours with caffeine
-take a great amount of klonopin
-walk into a Quaker/Amish community
-Act as if you barely remember how to talk, do not know your name, have no idea where you came from, who you are, or how you got there.

Oh here comes the Avatards, twenty-five percent death by violence is from The Angels of Our Better Nature and how would you pull out a wisdom tooth if all you have is stone tools and wood?

>>5984371
I get you on the wisdom teeth thing, but what's wrong with death by violence? I'd rather die violently than in bead of some horrible disease.

>>5983553
Idk they look like fucking savages but I wouldn't mind being a native American
>pic related

>>5984385
>I'd rather die violently than in bead of some horrible disease.

no you dont, you cant even survive a day without your smartphone

is /lit/ composed by a majority of edgy teens? it seems so

>>5984337
Would this work? I would try this out but I'm an Indian dude.

Considering most violent deaths happen at a younger age denying people years of their lives

>>5983553
If your read up on whats going on in that screenshot, youd know that the reason they are being investigated is because they are stealing and attacking conservation workers and local peaceful tribes (who want to massacre them with their bolt action rifles). They burnt a whole conservation center that was established to keep poachers and loggers away, and the guy who does flyovers limits it to once a year so as to not antagonize them. Oddly enough the guy who is actually flying over was going down the river, and the same tribe shot him through the neck with one of those 3.5 foot arrows, he had to be medivacced to the nearest hospital. In spite of this he is constantly fighting the nearest tribes because they want to go and retaliate, and probably give them all pneumonia.

Note the pan in the center, its ceramic and stolen from a local tribe that knits textiles for tourists. "Noble Savage"

>>5984522
so what? ah they attack our poachers and loggers who peacefully kill animals and cut trees on their territory

>>5984154

>>5984533
No, the poachers and loggers fuck them up.

They only kill peaceful local tribes and sympathetic government employees.

There was a really good part of the article where the daughter of the head of conservation ran from them after they attempted to rip her clothes off, hid from them in a tin hut with a lock, and it confused the fuck out of them.

I think there is a bbc documentary on this on youtube too

>>5984533

you missed the part when he said ' They burnt a whole conservation center that was established to keep poachers and loggers away'.

>>5984468
idk what would happen.
i think it would help to be white tho

>>5984543
where do you live? usa? imagine some muslims moved to your country and began to do something which you dislike, for instance to sell heroin, then, say, china went there too and made a conversational center for conversations between citizens of your country and drug selling muslims, what would be your reaction? so they had it the same

that guy above obviously think that savages should knit stuff for their white overlords and be silent

>>5984542
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=72AeLM-LZD8

Found it.

Note the horror of the local people at the prospect of dealing with these noble savages.

>>5984563
>white overlords

They are all Brazilian citizens. They are all niggers. A more apt analogy is:

"Imagine if in your neighborhood there was a large patch of woods. On one side of the woods is a construction site. Some of the construction workers fuck with a religious family in the patch of woods, and in retaliation they attack police officers and your family, as well as steal from them. When you contact the local government, they tell you that the religious family believe in being isolated and that neither they nor you can do anything, just take it."

>>5984582
>They are all Brazilian citizens.
do they know it? did they agree? do they hold id cards or passports lol
it seems as a one side aggression on the brazilian side

p.s. brazilian descendants of portuguese are white

>>5984591
Your argument would stand up if the local tribes that just happen to trade on the river instead of in the amazon werent the ones getting buttfucked.

>aggression on the brazillian tribe
They are literally not allowing the river people to seek blood vengeance for their dead and stolen property, as would have happened 600 years ago. Your argument would have worked in the congo in 1895, not in this circumstance.

>>5984600
;^)

>>5984610
hue

>>5984402
What does my smartphone have to do with how quickly or slowly I want to die? I don't want to suffer, so I'd rather die quickly and violently.

Cancer sounds a lot worse than getting shot or stabbed to death. One is slow pain over the course of months or years, the other takes an hour at most, and I'd probably go into shock and not feel anything anyways.

Why is edgy your go to reaction to anything you disagree with? Are you perhaps projecting?

>>5984582
>People who have been hiding in the jungle from white people for hundreds of years can't tell the difference between the ones who want to help them and the ones who want to put a bullet in their head.

OH NO TRULY SUBHUMAN SAVAGES WHO SHOULD BE SUCKING THE GOVERNMENT'S COCK.

>>5984689
Once again, the local tribes people are the ones that are getting stolen from and attacked. It isnt some fucking white aid worker or a crew of huehues deforesting their land with AK-47s.

Its a bunch of people that look like them that just happen to wear knit ponchos instead of nothing and watch a tiny tv in the center of their longhouses (that are identical)

>>5984694
Again, they were driven closer to civilization by illegal ranchers and loggers who WERE "deforesting their land with AK-47s." It's not their fault they don't trust anybody who isn't them. You'd be just as crazy if you were in their position.

>>5983553
Obviously no. I couldn't shit up threads on /lit/ if I lived like that.

>>5984694
>a tiny tv in the center of their longhouses
do they have a keeper of sacred tv, you know like a keeper of sacred fire long ago before matches were invented

>>5983856
would they literally phone the local police department and start the process of taking me to be locked up in a psych ward tho? perhaps for life if I catch the wrong money grabbing psychiatrists?

>>5983710
Take agriculture for example. It is know that when agriculture became commonplace average lifespan and health of the population significantly decreased. Why would people settle down to form agricultural communities then? One of the common theories is that it allowed people spent all their time near megalithic structures where priests enjoyed way more power than in the wilderness. It allowed powerful motherfuckers to gain more power. That's how progress works 8 out of 10 times. It allows rich and powerful to become even richer and more powerful usually at the expanse of the common folk. Take the whole Luddite shebang as another example...

>>5984799

depends on where you do it.

if you do it in outside a psych ward, maybe.

>>5984337
>Quaker/Amish
Faux seventeenth century isn't exactly what people mean when they're talking about noble savages. That's more of idealistic pastoralism territory.

>>5984819
wut
>>5984839
i was being ":^)"

>>5984814
Lifespan and health didn't decrease, people could stockpile food for winter/shortages whatever so they could feed a larger population = more workers = more people = here we all are consuming entertainment not worrying about food.

>>5984549
It'd be pretty neat if that worked. If I were white I'd try it out.

>>5984814
>Take agriculture for example. It is know that when agriculture became commonplace average lifespan and health of the population significantly decreased.

i doubt that

>One of the common theories is that it allowed people spent all their time near megalithic structures

ridiculous. and how did priests persuade their tribes to do all that

i think it was the following way, tribes grew because people got better with hunting or for another reason and suddenly they began to have food shortages because the amount of game got too low to support them, so they invented agriculture and it started a chain reaction increasing the population even more and therefore making it heavily dependent on their crops

or they could simply invent agriculture to support the instability of the hunting as the main food source and it eventually started the same chain reaction itself

>Everyone talking about Mah hunting.
>Ignoring that most pre-agricultural societies get most of their food from gathering.
>Talking about over-hunting when the benefit of being a hunter-gatherer is you can always find something else if one particular food source is depleted, or simply go somewhere else entirely.

Seriously guys?

No-one ITT actually seems to understand what the "noble savage" idea is. >>5984154 is probably the most egregiously stupid.

>>5984337
What happens after that?

>>5985214
>>Ignoring that most pre-agricultural societies get most of their food from gathering.

it sounds questionable. huge herds of animals can provide a lot of food but the herbs, bee nests etc stuff which you can find...

>>5985313
Care to enlighten us then?

>>5985359
Not all hunter gatherer societies follow herds. It largely depends on where they live.

A tribe in the jungle might hunt every day, but not always catch something. However they won't starve because they get most of their nutrition from fruit and berries.

>>5984154
what the fuck are you on about retard

if this was your grandma, or uncle or whatever, living in those filthy conditions, wouldn't you want to contact and help them?

these amazon people aren't animals or zoo creatures. they are human beings just like you and me, and equal with us as well. we should look upon them as kin, not in such a way as a scientist watching rats in a maze

these people, like us, need access to medical supplies, education, a stable source of food and income, and a safe environment in which to raise their children.

how dare we excuse their living conditions as 'noble savagery', no these people, human beings like you and me, live in abject poverty and need our help, not a sort of 'truman show-esque' condescension.

if you push towards non-contact, then you are a racist. if these people were white everyone would say they need our contact, help and aid. we would see them as equals.

>The Abos are human because they're all dead.
>Explain
>If they were alive it would be dangerous to let them be human because then they'd ask for things, but with them dead it makes it more interesting

>>5985431
are you trolling or are you ignorant to the fact that 80% of their population would die out in two years after contact? this is statistical fact, not racism

>>5985359
Tribes from amazon even had knowledge on production of alcoholic drinks before Portugueses got there. You are underestimating them.
>>5985431
Projecting as fuck.

>>5985458
Source on this please

>>5985480
http://www.uic.edu/classes/osci/osci590/3_3%20European%20Disease%20in%20the%20New%20World.htm
http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg13618424.700-how-columbus-sickened-the-new-world-why-were-native-americans-so-vulnerable-to-the-diseases-european-settlers-brought-with-them.html
http://www.backyardnature.net/loess/ind_pox.htm

not the best sources but i'm sure you can understand the general concept

whiteys spend centuries developing immunity to various diseases, only to bring them to foreign natives and decimate their populations

maybe this is all environmentalist propagandawatch the skies

>>5983710
It's Illegal.

>http://www.lastminutesurvival.com/2015/01/04/florida-outlaws-off-the-grid-living/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=RtiI1KA8Vps

>>5985521
>Killing a beaver for fun
What an asshole.

>>5984337

Amish quickly contact authorities who came take you to a psych ward.

Why would you think the Amish would adopt a a naked crazy retard?

>>5983852
>you're going to give them medicine, thus increasing their population, without giving them access to more/better food sources? they will all die of starvation if their population increased. you are sick!
plus the western world has illnesses that the savages could not be aware of.

It happened to ethologists bringing bacteria to some tribe. SO we had to care for them in the end

>>5983553
The noble savage is convention constructed to illustrate the tyranny of socially imposed strictures. We're all, to some degree, at odds with the demands our social context imposes upon us, even if we're unaware of it, that's the noble savage is usually transposed to some mythical of semi mythical context, one that conforms to alternative morality. That's an interesting exercise, as far as it goes, examining the artificial nature of ethics and morality, but it opts out the more mysterious question of personal integrity and commitment to the reality of truth within a social context where truth and integrity are liabilities not assets. Some authors have explored this area, Spillane Highsmith but they generally get interpreted, in the main stream, as anti-hero stereotypes.

>>5985467
>Tribes from amazon even had knowledge on production of alcoholic drinks before Portugueses got there. You are underestimating them.
alcohol is a true universal cuisine. Even in the middle of the desert in India, some settlers manage to ferment their crops.

>>5983699

get a load of the angry edgelord over here.

go punch walls

>>5983855
>the number is made up, admit it
This study actually says the number was 30%

http://munews.missouri.edu/news-releases/2012/1002-amazonian-tribal-warfare-sheds-light-on-modern-violence-says-mu-anthropologist/

Whatever the exact number is, it's millions of times higher than in civilized society.

>>5984468
Why don't you go full buddha in India, then?

>>5983553

>>5986252
more statistics for the edgy teens wanting to live in the amazon

>>5983553
Is that a metal cooking pot on the ground?

>>5986258
See
>>5984522

>>5986258

I noticed that too. If they're uncontacted, how did they get that metal pot?

>>5986280
They've been stealing from local communities, the documentary is in the middle of the thread along with some typical lit commie bullshit

>>5986259
>violence is only measured by deaths

interesting

>>5986299
you must have not read the "by warfare" which immediately follows the word "death", which put together reads "death by warfare"

or maybe you're just being intellectually dishonest on purpose.

>>5985521
The statist capitalist system depends on its drones staying in the production line. Of course they wouldn't let you "opt out." Realizations like this and an awareness of just how trapped we are is the reason the far-right (I mean the actual far-right, not Republicans or whatever) has become so obsessed with the concept of "exit."

>>5986256

Eventually.

There is actually nothing wrong with violence. People die all the time, murder is no more cruel than illness. And from a population standpoint, people will still be born faster than they die.
WWI killed less people than the Spanish Flu, and within a few decades the global population had more than doubled. We only think war is scary because society hides it from us.

The reason society hides it from us (with the exception of a specialized military caste) is because warfare is harmful to the social order. By keeping the people afraid of war, the state can maintain an monopoly of violence and only have to fight when it benefits the state. The state keeps the people in line by telling them how much "Safer" they are not fighting, but from an objective standpoint, they aren't preventing you from dieing, just making sure you die in a way that don't harm them. The reproductive success is unaffected by war.

>>5986861
violence has a long trail of anxiety and other strong feelings like despair, helplessness, rage etc, not only war, any violence
a murdered person hurts others immensely stronger than somebody who died in an accident or of an illness because a murder is a deliberate action of another human and it feels both out of the natural order of things and as something which can be controlled, revenged and prevented

>>5986903
>a murdered person hurts others immensely stronger

I would pick being murdered with a bullet over months or years of suffering aids or cancer.

>>5986903
>violence has a long trail of anxiety and other strong feelings like despair, helplessness, rage etc, not only war, any violence

It's almost like we've been conditioned since birth to avoid it! How natural is this natural order?