/lit/ - Literature

>>5934705
> if McDonald's cut their profit margin, then employees could live very comfortable and have shorter hours.

That's like objectively true

Anyway, to respond to the thread in general, what I would say is lol

i hope your teen gf breaks up with you

Your girlfriend is smarter than you.

>>5934717
>That's like objectively true
and objectively obvious, and therefore objectively retarded. "if the owners would the employees more moneyz the employees would have have more moneyz"

>read Capital
I seriously doubt she read an unabridged version
she's exhibiting marxist tendencies to estrange herself from her father, there's no point in trying to dissuade her puerile ideology as she isn't genuinely politically interested at all, its a rather proxy means towards another goal and gauging her political interests as serious is a clear misjudgement

>>5934723
>I seriously doubt she read an unabridged version
pretty sure she did, it was mighty thick

>she's exhibiting marxist tendencies to estrange herself from her father, there's no point in trying to dissuade her puerile ideology as she isn't genuinely politically interested at all, its a rather proxy means towards another goal and gauging her political interests as serious is a clear misjudgemen
I'd normally agree with you, but since I'm her bf I have more influence with her on this than her daddy does.

>>5934705
It sounds like she's making a lot of sense. Orwell was against totalitarianism, not Marxism. He won't change her mind. What has really happened here is that she has developed intellectually, surpassing both you and her father, making you both uncomfortable with these ideas, of which you both (you and her father) have only a tenuous grasp.

The Wealth of Nations.

>>5934705
>so give me some books I can give her to set her straight
Kropotkin
Bakunin
Rosa Luxemburg
Ellison's Invisible Man

>>5934736
This but unironically

>>5934736
Luxemburg was a Marxist, butterfly.

>>5934728
at 3 volumes (I'm assuming the penguin classics edition) it comes to about 2600 pages. you can maybe exert pressure by discussing the biographical tendencies of Althusser (strangled his wife) and Veblen (innumerable affairs) and casting them as patriarchal scum (pseudo-marxists eat up personal injustice)

get her into Habermas (Structural Transformation of the Public Sphere) Rawls (Political Liberalism) and Popper (The Open Society and Its Enemies) the last probably being the most effect means of swaying her back (particularly that book).

>>5934728

>it was mighty thick

it would be in several volumes it is several thousand pages long

single volume abridgments are pretty common and still thick looking

>>5934705
I like the way you are open to your girlfriend exploring her social and political ideas.

Also, Orwell was a socialist.

>>5934751
>at 3 volumes (I'm assuming the penguin classics edition) it comes to about 2600 pages.
yeah it was only one volume. maybe it was abridged, it's the one with the workers in the factory on the front..

>you can maybe exert pressure by discussing the biographical tendencies of Althusser (strangled his wife) and Veblen (innumerable affairs) and casting them as patriarchal scum (pseudo-marxists eat up personal injustice)
she's not really a die hard feminist, although she detests sexism, but I'd just as soon not turn her into someone constantly talking about the patriarchy

>get her into Habermas (Structural Transformation of the Public Sphere) Rawls (Political Liberalism) and Popper (The Open Society and Its Enemies) the last probably being the most effect means of swaying her back (particularly that book).
thank you, good sir

First, you have to make the distinction between Communism and Marxism, so next time you speak to your girlfriend, ask her if she's a Marxist. Second, you have to ask yourself why her subscribing to these beliefs is such a big deal to you. You dont have a clear set of ideas as to why Marxism is bad (otherwise you wouldn't be asking for materials on the subject) and hence your aversion for it is on an irrational basis (no doubt been pumped full of Western propaganda).

>>5934743
Of a certain stripe I hear. All good.

>>5934756
i wouldn't be comfortable with her spouting shit from Mein Kampf. there is a limit to being open minded

>>5934771
She was against vanguard parties, pro-democracy, pro freedom of speech, and pro improvisation of socialism by the workers as you go .

>>5934771
luxumbourg is just a final fallback for people who want to believe in communism but find even trotsky was too hardcore...she never had a chance, sorry, a jewess is never going to be made dictator of germany, which is why she was executed without much fuss, if she did come to power she probably would have just slaughtered a bunch of turks or bombed some anarchists and been just as much a villain as any powercrazed jew given dominion over the goy

>>5934777
>against vanguard parties

Spartacist League are some of the most annoying vangaurdists freaks on the "leftist circuit"

>>5934783
>, if she did come to power she probably would have just slaughtered a bunch of turks or bombed some anarchists and been just as much a villain as any powercrazed jew given dominion over the goy
She was highly critical of Lenin's ideas before he even came to power.

>>5934772
I see where you are coming from, but her skepticism of capitalism is not so concerning that the OP needs to "set her straight." Exploring an alternative economic system to capitalism and becoming enamored by Hitler's philosophy are very different things.

gramsci imho

>>5934788
They might be, but we're talking about Luxemburg as a theorist, not about contemporary people who use the names of the group she was a part of. They don't necessarily resemble Luxemburg's Spartacus group anymore than her group resembled the original Spartacus's group.

>>5934791
maybe if she had followed lenin's lead instead of being a pussy she wouldn't have ended up dead in a ditch.

>>5934734

>>5934796
i am op, and Scandinavian socialism is one thing, Marxism is something else. she is shitting on her dad and accusing him of being a criminal, basically, simply because he owns a small business (that he started).

>>5934803
She never actually gained power, so I don't see how she ever had the option to follow his lead.

>>5934803
This

Lenin 420 blaze it imo

sounds like you're the moron OP

cognitive dissonance ftw

>>5934806
when you think about it
all dads are criminals

>>5934722
>the employees would have have more moneyz
>That's retarded
Are you a trust fund kiddie or something? You want your precious capitalism to work right you have to dither the damn cash out to those who are going to spend it. Keeping people servile and stupid so they can serve you cheap shit food is a really bad idea.

>>5934804
will get for sure, thanks

>>5934818
>re you a trust fund kiddie or something? You want your precious capitalism to work right you have to dither the damn cash out to those who are going to spend it. Keeping people servile and stupid so they can serve you cheap shit food is a really bad idea.
without capitalism, there would be no incentive for investment you pinko idiot

>>5934813
Agent provocateur. /pol/ plant.

>And then a couple of days after that, we were having dinner with her dad and she accused him of exploiting his workers, which is absolute bullshit, he owns a small business and all his employees love him and he workers harder than anyone there by a long shot.

lmfao

>>5934816
everyone's dad is a criminal and our nation is evil, that's what professor jewberg taught me at college this semester, now here's the bill for $50,000 ok dad

>>5934828
>without capitalism, there would be no incentive for investment

oh lord

>>5934837
you see a lot of investment happening before capitalism? didnt think so fgt

>>5934828
Dumbass, I was telling you how to run your capitalism. I didn't even say anything about tearing it down
>Pinko
I'm a red and black, get that straight.

>>5934806
It sounds like you need to have a conversation about black and white morality. If she believes that her dad is in the wrong because he owns a business and that the working class are in the right because they do not, she has a very narrow perspective regarding social justice.

>>5934841
what like armies and shit? saw a lot of redistribution in those days too

>>5934806
>she is shitting on her dad and accusing him of being a criminal, basically, simply because he owns a small business (that he started).

totally trustworthy unbiased interpr insight

>>5934736
>Bakunin

i understand that bakunin differs from marx , but my understanding of his diffrence was actually obscured by reading him, based on wiki i thought i knew what he was about, but after reading his letters I couldn't really tell how he and marx differed.

along a simmiler vien, op get her Proudhoun.

>>5934764
>yeah it was only one volume. maybe it was abridged, it's the one with the workers in the factory on the front..

thanks for clearing that up bro,

watch badlands 2gether

>>5934855
well, Baku was an anarchist. Completely different from Marxism. So..

>>5934705
Robert Nozick - anarchy, state and utopia


It's pretty much neolibertarian answer for socialism. She might object the central ideas of the book and drop it half way through, but you can always persuade her by stating that its good to know your enemy or something.

>>5934855
>Free shrugs.jpg

>>5934887
Neo libertarianism is dumb as fuck though and Nozick sucks ass

>>5934891

Yes it might be, but the point is that the mainstream economics claim that its a good thing. I don't think its wasted time to be educate on how your opponents think.

>>5934819
Yes sir. The Wealth of Nations and Kapital are two must reads for anyone interested in economics.

A bit of Malthus wouldn't hurt either. And the school of transcendentalist philosophy, particularly Thoreau, seems to even delve in a bit to economics, because resource allocation is irretrievably attached to Nature.

>>5934705
you're an idiot and she's too good for you

>>5934831
>>And then a couple of days after that, we were having dinner with her dad and she accused him of exploiting his workers, which is absolute bullshit, he owns a small business and all his employees love him and he workers harder than anyone there by a long shot.

The definition of exploitation is not "is an asshole to the people who work for you", exploitation is profiting from someone else's labour. She is technically right.

Sorry to break it to you OP not really, you're completely in the wrong here but your gf is merely extending her intellectual boundaries and looking at things more critically, apparantly further than you or her father would tolerate due to your ill-informed conjecture on what Marxism is. Tell your gf to read Karl Korsch, just for fun.

>>5934905
If he's not jerking our chain about her, she's going to leave him soon enough.

>>5934913
so what she's probably fat or something anyways

>>5934917
Grapes are hella sour imo

>>5934705
Go read Capital, Veblen and Althusser and debate her
Get on her intellectual level btich

>>5934855
>get her Proudhoun.
haha no

>>5934887
cool, thanks

>>5934908
i wasn't aware that exploitation has a "scientific" definition, but since the business wouldn't even exist without her dad, i don'ts ee how he's "exploiting" them by setting it up and giving people jobs. you take him away, the business wouldn't even exist

>>5934917
no she's a very dainty eater

>>5934720
pretty much

i think you're not up for this task op, specially if orwell and hayek compose your idea of highbrow political literature

>>5934705
>we were having dinner with her dad and she accused him of exploiting his workers, which is absolute bullshit, he owns a small business and all his employees love him and he workers harder than anyone there by a long shot.

fucking lol

this is like when use capital in social theory as a synonym for money

Do you really need to come up with this bullshit story? Can't you just say you've been losing debates here and you want to step your game up?

>>5934951
>i wasn't aware that exploitation has a "scientific" definition, but since the business wouldn't even exist without her dad, i don'ts ee how he's "exploiting" them by setting it up and giving people jobs. you take him away, the business wouldn't even exist

she's obviously using the marxist definition of the term you fucking pleb. equivocational fallacies out the ass

>>5935016
>marxist
>using pleb as an insult

>>5935156
>he thinks i'm marxist

>>5935156
please explain the irony

>>5934705
>She's still a teenager
In the spirit of the new sincerity, every thread on /lit/ should begin with some variation on this.

>>5935156
>using irony incorrectly
Oh the irony

>>5935166
1. marxism claims to be a "science"
2. "pleb" is just latin for "proletariat", which is the class that marxism glorifies

>>5935169
oh, the irony.

>>5935169
There are a number of ways to use the word "irony", it want to be strict with it, it means the audience knows the story but the characters in the drama don't, it's a literary expression of determinism.

/lit/ is the wrong place to ask, OP, it's full of mentally handicapped Marxists.

Give her the Greeks, Carlyle and Hobbes.

>>5935284
The economic institutions that allowed the development of the industrial proletariat that Marx and Engels believed to be the next class to impose change in the arrangement of production and distribution in human society came into existence more than a millennium after the fall of the Roman empire. They aren't the same thing by any stretch of the imagination.

>>5934751
>Popper (The Open Society and Its Enemies) the last probably being the most effect means of swaying her back (particularly that book).

ahahahahaha seriously? Popper is the best thing liberals have?

>>5934728
i recommend you read the book and learn what Marx was actually trying to say so that when your retard gf says more stupid shit you can correct her and tell her to read a companion to the book or some shit cuz she dum.
also break up with girls who are stupid unless you yourself are stupid.

>>5934841
Wow, you're fucking retarded.

>>5935712
Well, apart from having the advantage of being based on reality rather than utopian abstractions...

>>5934841
A feudal lord spending gold gold to drain marsh lands for agriculture is investing. And that was before capitalism.

who /revleft/ here?

op is an obvious troll, why does this thread have so many responses?

>>5936245
Worse than /pol/ and unfunny to boot.

>>5936245
That pic has been edited right? I'm pretty sure it has but you never know with revleft reality can go beyond satire.

>>5934705
>And then I asked her if she was a communist now or something
lel OP you're a retard and an American at that
i hope your gf breaks up with your dumb ass

The girl in the OP sounds pretty cool. I wish more teen left wingers read their marx and post-marx.

>she's not shopping or anything much anymore. She's still a teenager, so that's pretty strange
too obvious, but it was a nice text, OP. I could really feel the characteriaztion in your narrator.

>>5934913
>>5934908
>>5934905
>>5934837
>>5936297
>>5936278


Scum like you will soon be eradicated, we watch closely what you do, where you live, communist-antihuman movements that you support.

You may think that your faces will go unnoticed in the crowd, but they won't.

We are preparing, and one day we will come to you.
The AR-15 that I'm holding on my lap right now, was waiting way too long for that day, but it will come and soon at that.

Your blood will fill the streets
Your bodies will hang from the cranes.

There is more of us than you can even begin to suspect

>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_nQBLR-rrqI

>>5936518
jesus dude threatening mass shooting just because you lost an internet debate is pretty over the top

>>5936518
grade-A edge. Make sure your mom doesn't catch you wacking off that big gun to an anime website about old books

>>5936518
Oooh, power fantasies!

>>5936518
nigga did you forget what happens when u try to civil war with us

china would never have become maoist if chiang kai-shek didn't commit mass murder with the communist wing of his party

>>5936518

>>5936518
>everyone who disagrees with me is a commie
lel America

>>5934705

>>5936518

>which is absolute bullshit, he owns a small business and all his employees love him and he workers harder than anyone there by a long shot.
I bet your girlfriend does let you spurt all this hot pearly white ideology all over her face.

>2015
>reading capital
>being a Marxist

>>5934705
Is this real

>>5937430
we haven't had sex yet and probably won't for a while

>>5937451
yes, but i might as well not have posted it, 90% of this thread has turned into shitposting

>>5937466
>we haven't had sex yet and probably won't for a while
massivekek

>>5934705
>so give me some books I can give her to set her straight (no Ayn Rand plz). I already got her Hayek and Animal Farm, what else?

I hope for the sake of your relationship you're not actually this stupid

>>5937472
i'm not going to fuck her until it's legal to do so, and she's not exactly hella experienced

>>5937475
what the fuck do you mean by that?

>>5937466
>/lit/'s not conforming to my shitty opinions so it's shitposting

>>5937480
Topkek
She's probably fucking multiple Marxists that haven't showered in 4 days while you suck off her capitalists daddy.

>>5937466
>we haven't had sex yet and probably won't for a while
AYY LMAO
I bet she prefers Tyrone's dick

>>5934705
Wealth of Nations
... Or just tell her to take a fucking economics class.

>>5937488
she hasn't popped her cherry yet, so not likely.

>>5937480
>Animal Farm is a rebuttal of Marxism

She's going to think you're an idiot.

>>5934705
>A few days ago she said that if McDonald's cut their profit margin, then employees could live very comfortable and have shorter hours.
Well, not entirely. I think Marx did mention about the capatitists dillema. If one business lowers the wage of their workers, then another busniness may have to do the same if they are to stay in compition with them. Even if the boss of the company doesn't want too. Then again, this is McDonalds, but even so, if a recession or something happens, not lowering the workers wage may put them out of business, leading them to be sold to another company.

You sure she didn't read the communist manifesto? Capital isn't that reactonary.

>>5937480
>i'm not going to fuck her until it's legal to do so, and she's not exactly hella experienced

She done read Marx, she don't give a fuck about your bourgeois rule anymore.

>>5937497
Keep believing that, cuck. She's liberating her body by subscribing to sex positive feminism. She enjoys tyrone's dick because she loves giving equal opportunity to minorities.

>>5937491
Wealth of nations is just Marx lite, in many respects.

>>5937497
>actually believing this

>>5937526
why not? she's willing to have sex, I'm the one holding off.

>>5937519
I can tell you just from a cursory knowledge of Marxist theory and an extensive knowledge of Smithian theory that's completely incorrect. Adam Smith viewed the progress of labor into manufactures as ultimately necessary to improve the conditions of the population, however there were many flaws he saw in the way the free trade was administrated and even developed.

>>5937533
*tips fedora*

>>5937506
i'm sure she read Capital, she carried it with her religiously for a week and had her head in it all the damn time

>>5937543
i'm holding off because she's a minor, dumb ass, and because her dad trusts me not to fuck her

>>5934705
Veblen wasn't a Marxist. He was influenced by Marx's economic writings, but was generally critical of many key points of Marxist theory.

>>5937553
*tips pussywhipped fedora*

>>5937553

Get off of 4chan and step your ass out of the closet right this second young man.

>>5937553
You're getting cucked by her dad. She's definitely an anarcho-primitivist

>>5934705
OP you need to give her a hard fucking. communists get fucked by reality. Her recent communist views are an unconscious attempt to experience the sexual submission her sex naturally desires. If you do your job as a boyfriend you should see things improve.

>>5937553
>she's a minor
Please tell me you're fucking other girls on the side

/pol/ btfo

>>5934705
>if McDonald's cut their profit margin, then employees could live very comfortable and have shorter hours.

That's not Communist, Communism would be if the employees took over the business, then ran it on an egalitarian, community-solidary basis. This whole "if the bosses would just be fair" only shows how deeply ingrained the whole slave mentality is in modern Capitalist society.

Orwell actually lived his life struggling against Capitalism.

>>5937553
You have little choice. Her father may understand if you explain it is to dissuade her of dangerous Marxist beliefs. Getting fucked is the only thing communists understand.
Ayn Rand would agree your required course of action is an ethical one.

> not being glad that his partner is actually interested in legitimate topics and not lost in the YOLO/POP culture

be glad of what you have (if you really do)

>>5937534
I've read Capital Vol 1 and all of the wealth of nations.

It's not incorrect, but more of a hyperbole or half-truth. Both use historicism in their analysis, smith and marx both go through the stages of economic history. Smith giving a broader, but more diluted version of it while Marx giving a smaller scale, but with more depth. Smith advocated the LTV, but did not know how to apply it to wages. Marx, depending on the did (though apparently book 3 goes against this and LTV for marx had nothing to do with monetary value). Both econnimists used simmilar terms and both used class at the centre of their analysis.

Suprisingly, Marx did not critisie Smith as much as he did ricardio and malthus in Volume 1 of capital.

>>5934705
>animal farm

mistake

>trying to stop gf turning into communist
>get her animal farm
Ha, enjoy your trotskyite gf

>>5937584
why would i cheat on her? we care about each other.

This is what a few months of /lit/ does to you. I used to be a centrist for years

>>5934705
A fucking history book.
Communism contradicts human nature due to the system being demotivating and force is therefore necessary for it to work.

>>5937691
Hmm good point imo, never thought about it that way, perhaps we should listen to this guy as he seems really 'deep' and well-read

>>5934788
And full of Jews

>>5937691
any particular history books you'd recommend?

>>5937702
Prove him wrong.

>>5934728
>but since I'm her bf I have more influence with her on this than her daddy does.

Look at him and laugh. This faggot actually thinks he has more influence on this daddy issues GF, than his actual daddy has.

That's cute.

>>5937712
Fact: he's a big dumb gay baby

Ergo he is wrong

Qed

>>5937691
Literally name one communist country, Stalinist states aren't communist because they aren't stateless, classless societies. Where the means of production are run by the proletariat.

>>5937716
I'm pretty sure that's what the Soviet Union was trying to accomplish.

>girlfriend cares about him
>has not had sex

Your gifriend is probably sucking off a gang of socialist Jewish students as we speak.

>>5937716
>Literally name one communist country, Stalinist states aren't communist because they aren't stateless, classless societies. Where the means of production are run by the proletariat.

Not him but I agree with you. There is no way that anyone can escape capitalism. Even the countries that tried to escape capitalism turned into authoritarian and totalitarian versions of it.

There is no escape.

>>5937725
she wants to have sex, i'm the one who says not yet

>>5937738
>she wants to have sex, i'm the one who says not yet

>>5934951
>>get her Proudhoun.
>haha no

have u read proudhoun or just wiki ?

also OP are you really politicly involved? if not, they idg why u gaf

>>5937702
Why make it so complicated? It's in human nature that the harder you work, the more you achieve. If all the extra you achieve is taken away from you then you won't put in the extra amount of work, unless you're forced to.
>>5937716
Take Lenin for instance. Heard of the NEP? The only time communism caused a higher living standard was when they used capitalist policies.
And ffs, the reason there are no "true communist regimes" is because any attempt has failed.
>>5937708
Not any particular, but 20th century history, which focuses on the Soviet Union, China and Cuba would do.

>>5937727
>There is no escape.
And why is that? Are you implying that the whole world is dependant on capitalist nations and therefore cannot escape the system? Then why did the capitalist nations manage to take control of the whole world?

>>5937727

Of course you can escape Capitalism. It's just that everybody discussing it seem to be mental infants who somehow expects someone to come along and do every fucking last thing for them. And then they cry about how they get fucked over.

It's not some high school discussion about how things oughta be, it's so unfair, boo hoo. It's what you do, how you struggle for what you want and whether you think you are the only person who matters.

>>5937771
>And why is that? Are you implying that the whole world is dependant on capitalist nations and therefore cannot escape the system? Then why did the capitalist nations manage to take control of the whole world?

No, I am implying that every attempt to escape the capitalist world order, will only end with authoritarian versions of it, like the USSR/Cuba/North Korean type state capitalist systems.

You cannot escape the ideology, because it can literally survive in any type of state.

>>5934705
>She's still a teenager
Why are you dating a teenager?

>>5937787
>You cannot escape the ideology, because it can literally survive in any type of state.
I'd argue that's because of human nature. Ergo, Communism fails due to human nature.

>>5937787

Bullshit

>>5934734
>>5937491
You two have obviously never read Wealth of Nations. I did and it made me much more of a leftist. Do you think it is something similar to Hayek or Friedman? You will be in for a surprise.

>>5937691
>>5937793
>>5937443
>>5934887
>>5934841
>>5934772
>>5934722
>>5937580
>Being this ideological
>Being this immersed in spooks
>2015
>still sucking the Spectacle's cock this vigorously

Also this person >>5934736 and this person >>5934770 are right.

>>5937738
Then you are going to get cucked.

>>5937910
you still haven't realized that the op is a troll?

fuck off back to reddit, m8

>>5934705
Give her the Managerial Revolution by James Burnham. Despite it's flaws it explains the world better than marxism does.

>>5937664
You turn into a retard that uses biased internet political quizzes?
Sounds about right.

>>5934705

Send her some Milton Friedman videos. There are many on YouTube. mises.org has a lot of good videos and essays as well.