/lit/ - Literature

Because you shouldn't like fag shit like education and opera. You should like God and Football.

Same reason people supported Fascism in the past. It's all about context. It depends on what type of reactionary you are and what context you're working in. The truth is all those abstract notions of politics like universal rights apply less than concrete promises and cultural flak.

>>5902037
Fascism actually strove to educate the working class, and although Germany was artistically shit, fascism in Italy strongly supported the arts, and not just retrograde art that reactionaries would approve of.

I'm talking about people like Evola, traditionalists.

>>5902044
>and although Germany was artistically shit
U wot m8

>>5902049
that's shit m8 regardless of ur pleb-ass opinions

>>5902049
Not counting architecture, that is.

>>5902044
Traditionalists actually don't care about having political flak. Just look at Evola ranting against the Italian Fascists directly and being hated by everyone in the party.

They're mysticists. They care more about denying material reality for an eternal principle rather than catering to any classes. Anyone who supports a traditionalist probably doesn't care for anything other than transcendence.

>>5902049
that's just ripping off Romans architecture with more concrete

>>5902052
jew pls

>>5902053
okay

>>5902062
Following a certain architectural style is not "ripping off".

Also, Nazi Germany lasted 12 years. It's unfair to compare the artistic production of a country which lasted a bit more than a decade with the artistic production of countries over hundreds of years.

>>5902067
>Also, Nazi Germany lasted 12 years. It's unfair to compare the artistic production of a country which lasted a bit more than a decade with the artistic production of countries over hundreds of years.
That's implying that the entire German population was replaced with "Nazis" for exactly 12 years and then changed back after the war

>>5902071
No, I'm just implying that the time period was short, and hence the artistic production was small.

>>5902067
Compare the artistic productions of Germany under the Nazis with the artistic productions of other countries during the same period. Germany was pedestrian as all fuck because anything that wasn't radically banal upset Nazi sensibilities.

>>5902067

While I certainly don't want to defend modern art, you can't honestly believe Hitler to have been a good artist. Go to your local gallery or something.

>>5902077
Case in point: People should look up "Entartete Kunst" (degenerate art), which was the tag Nazis used for art that offended them. They used it practically on everything that wasn't statues of Arian muscle hunks. It was used on Jazz, Cubism, Symbolism, Dada, Surrealism, practically everything "modern" (modern for the 1930s).

>>5902067
nazi art is modern art you fuckin pleb. read a book

>>5902067
Dude, seriously. Leave this board. It's not for you.

>>5902067
Are you seriously being butthurt that someone criticized your beloved Nazi architecture

>>5902034
The Tao De Ching agrees


When the Way is forgotten
Duty and justice appear;
Then knowledge and wisdom are born
Along with hypocrisy.

When harmonious relationships dissolve
Then respect and devotion arise;
When a nation falls to chaos
Then loyalty and patriotism are born.

****

If we could abolish knowledge and wisdom
Then people would profit a hundredfold;
If we could abolish duty and justice
Then harmonious relationships would form;
If we could abolish artifice and profit
Then waste and theft would disappear.

Yet such remedies treat only symptoms
And so they are inadequate.

People need personal remedies:
Reveal your naked self and embrace your original nature;
Bind your self-interest and control your ambition;
Forget your habits and simplify your affairs.

****

Without taking a step outdoors
You know the whole world;
Without taking a peep out the window
You know the colour of the sky.

The more you experience,
The less you know.
The sage wanders without knowing,
Sees without looking,
Accomplishes without acting.

****

Honest people use no rhetoric;
Rhetoric is not honesty.
Enlightened people are not cultured;
Culture is not enlightenment.
Content people are not rich;
Riches are not contentment.
Education and opera is for fags.
Fags attend to education and opera.

So the sage does not serve himself;
The more he does for others, the more he is satisfied;
The more he gives, the more he receives.
Nature flourishes at the expense of no one;
So the sage benefits all men and contends with none.
Praising God and playing football with the lads.

>>5902071
>>5902077
>>5902078
>>5902083
>>5902086
>>5902091
I see that the JIDF squad has arrived.

Isn't it lunch time in Tel Aviv?

>>5902098
Quality fresh humour, my fellow memester!

What's with all the reactionaries and traditionalists on 4chan
Why do you hate it when people have individual freedom, do you get off on restricting them or something

No reactionary in existence tries to limit education or cultural refinement to an elite. Even the most elitist elitist these days still believes in radical meritocracy compared to some random aristocrat 200 years ago, who legitimately thought refinement was in the blood and the peasantry and bourgeoisie couldn't be uplifted from their mundane concerns.

>>5902081
Hitler was absolutely right about degenerate art. If he had won art wouldn't be the shit it is today.

>>590209
Still butthurt that your board got raped?

Gothic cathedrals are the pinnacle of architecture

prove me wrong
preferrably with cool images

>>5902067
Nice perspectice on dat Hitler
and wtf is this monstrosity

>>>/pol/

>>5902112

/pol/ is left without a home and is wandering the 4chan desert. they're just upset that they're the new jews now.

>>5902110
Most art doesn't look like that today, m8. Not that you'd know because you probably have never gone to a museum when you have your artistic Deadpool comics.

>>5902110
right, imagine all those meticulously crafted cherub dicks we could have

>>5902122
>>5902126

Don't mess up his confirmation bias with your shitty reason. That's no fun.

>>5902122
>implying
I live in Paris, I've been to the Louvre more times than you've been to mcdonalds.

I went to the centre Pompidou only once though. It gave me nausea.

>>5902120
degenerate art

>>5902126
I'm sure that this uncurcimcized dick bothers you Shlomo.

>>5902121
Don't they have the eight-chan board? Please, /pol/guys, anywhere but here with this crap.

>>5902110
The art that the Nazis suppressed and destroyed was often great, and the soft porn they replaced it with really destroys any faith I have in their aesthetic judgments.

>>5902131
Guess who the artist is

>>5902131
Try going to a museum with contemporary art sometimes, instead of goggling "genital art" and then saying that represents art today.

>>5902131
Mais dégage putain, tu ne vois pas que tu fais chier tout le monde avec tes conneries?

>>5902110
>literally scared of vaginas

>>5902137
Not Hitler.

>>5902131
>uncurcimcized

way too spell and get point of my post, retard

also
>I went to the centre Pompidou only once though.

>>5902142
Casual sex is degenerate because people shouldn't have fun without me.

>>5902081
That was one of the good Nazi policies.

>>5902067
pleb taste in ideology, pleb taste in art

obviously pleb if people actually voted that shit in. the very definition of pleb

>>5902147
It was awful. Imagine if they passed a law on literature that said everything had to be written in the along the lines of "Pamela, or Virtue Rewarded"

>>5902147
i liked the policy when coward nazi officers killed themselves in shame

>>5902137
Oh I thought you meant that the blue square with a light blue line going through it was the monstrosity.

>>5902136
Is this supposed to be great? Top kike

>>5902138
I did. The centre Pompidou. It was shit.

>>5902140
Gobe mon chibre

>>5902148
There is nothing more "pleb" than modern art.


Here guise, have a bit of real art.

>>5902060
I enjoyed reading your post, Anon, thank you.

Traditionalists/Mysticists thread, I guess.

>>5902095

kek

the football that can be commentated
is not the true football

>>5902153
>There is nothing more "pleb" than modern art.
There is nothing more pleb than painting naked people over and over and over. Event he Futurist movement, which was strong associated with fascism, knew this.

We fight:

Against the bituminous tints by which it is attempted to obtain the patina of time upon modern pictures.
Against the superficial and elementary archaism founded upon flat tints, and which, by imitating the linear technique of the Egyptians, reduces painting to a powerless synthesis, both childish and grotesque.
Against the false claims to belong to the future put forward by the secessionists and the independents, who have installed new academies no less trite and attached to routine than the preceding ones.
Against the nude in painting, as nauseous and as tedious as adultery in literature.
We wish to explain this last point. Nothing is immoral in our eyes; it is the monotony of the nude against which we fight. We are told that the subject is nothing and that everything lies in the manner of treating it. That is agreed; we too, admit that. But this truism, unimpeachable and absolute fifty years ago, is no longer so today with regard to the nude, since artists obsessed with the desire to expose the bodies of their mistresses have transformed the Salons into arrays of unwholesome flesh!

We demand, for ten years, the total suppression of the nude in painting.

>>5902153
>rigid
>expressionless
>bland colouring
>bland lighting
>no central focus
>no moral message
>obviously no classical training

not even good by pre-modern standards

>>5902163
Not even Napoleon tier. What happened to Europe?

>>5902169
your mom

>>5902153
>There is nothing more "pleb" than modern art.
Really? Being incapable of enjoying anything more exciting than the artistic equivalent of spiceless sauceless bratwurst makes you some champion of "real art"? /pol/ plebs are the worst

>>5902163

christian detected

i bet u havnt even SEEN odin

>>5902175
ossian was FAKE literally the onion news site of poetry

>>5902182

well lets see u try to be fake and write poems too

huh yeah how about that

fake ppl cant write poemns mate its literally science

>>5902191
>science
reported

>>5902201

do u even have a single fact to back that up mate?

> bumblasted christain detected

>>5902031
First of all there are currently no working classes in first-world countries. Low-tier service sector isn't working class.
2nd. In aristocracy culture atleast exists, unlike during democractic capitalism where everything that receives praise is tuned for the mass man and his averageness. Every peasant contributed to german romanticism with his being, while the current office-worker only feeds the trash with his money and is basically without Being.

>>5902034
Fuck off projecting amerifat. Modern sports culture is modernist trash.

>>5902153
Un /pol/tard à Paris. On aura tout vu. Est-ce que tu te coincés l'anus dès que tu vois de la "diversité" dans le métro?

>>5902104
>he doesn't understand artistic creativity comes better in an environment where there's restrictions
Typical capitalist loser mentality. Kill yourself pleb.

>>5902062
>concrete

nazis built with stone so the ruins of their great architecture would inspire awe in future peoples, m8.

>>5902204

>>5902161
>There is nothing more pleb than painting naked people over and over and over
Yes there is. Pic related.

>>5902173
> than the artistic equivalent of spiceless sauceless bratwurst
That's, like, your opinion man. How would you describe pic related?

>>5902205
>tu te coincés l'anus
Apprend à parler français sale bougnoule.

> Activist campaigns, which tend to be conducted in the name of the people as a whole, neither consult the people nor show much interest in noticing them—a point that was noticeable to Burke, in considering the insolence of the French revolutionaries. Such campaigns are affairs of elites who are seeking to triumph over real or imaginary adversaries, and who make an impact on politics because they share, in their hearts, the old socialist view that things must be changed from the top downwards, and that the people themselves are not to be trusted now, but only later, when the revolutionary vanguard has completed its task

I am sorry OP.

>tfw you love both degeneracy and nazism

becuz working class ppl r dumb n pleb n dont read hhahhaa dey dont even read or know who chopin is kek
but pls support communism tho becuz histoires

Because leftists piss them off after having been their target for years.

Just think about it for a moment you faggots... Who have you been a bullying for years?
Right.

True modern art is to be found in the modern and vastly more complex artforms of cinema and computer games, and it is there that the future also lies

masturbating over paintings is just mindless nostalgia, all the old masters would gladly have thrown their canvases and chisels in the dumpster if it meant they were given access to the tools we have today

>>5902203
christ is our only salvation pleb

>>5902225
I'd describe it as typical Rothko, a great artist who did something new without throwing out the baby with the bathwater. Nice choice of pallete and those soft edges are gorgeous.
No idea why wronggeneration Nazis circlejerk blue-curtains style over Rothko being "just squares", at the very least his work is often easy on the eye. Most people who hate heavily on Rothko on 4chan really don't know anything about aesthetics or art in general, he's just a convenient scapegoat for their discomfort at DEGENERACYYY or whatever other bugbear they're crying about

>>5902225
>apprend
lel, dixit le "français de souche"
paille, poutre, tout ça..

Why should I support any Fascist/Reactionary/National Socialist state when they all collapse or are militarily defeated within 40 years at most?

>Franco
>Mussolini
>Hitler
>Codreanu
Every single one lost or overthrown or transitioned to democracy.

>in b4 other democracies fail too or the gommunists fail
No shit, Sherlock. I'm asking about them. If these states are all so great, how come they're all gone and democracies, as 'fucked up' as they are, are still around?

Pic related. The fate of Germans who were duped by National Socialism.

I'm a lower class (I hate the term working class, so much) monarchist. If I had my way I'd probably never have even come to this conclusion because universal education wouldn't exist. I'd be a de facto monarchist in lieu of ever thinking it could be any other way. I'd be working away somewhere waiting for the weekend to get drunk on Saturday, go to mass on Sunday, and thinking about the local peasant girls. I am a little smarter than the average peasant though so I'd probably end up going to seminary and getting a religious education. I can still get a little drunk though.

Anyway, I've never heard a reactionary criticise someone for working. As for access to intellectual things, well, I don't see why everyone is obliged to those things at all, and certainly I'm sure that the great majority couldn't give a fuck if they had never even existed in the first place.

Try to step out of your historical setting.

>>5902274
So pic related is "spiceless sauceless bratwurst" but a blue square is a gorgeous art piece? Damn you're stupid.

>>5902275
Commettre une faute d'orthographe sur un forum de dessins animés japonais est moins grave que d'écrire "tu te coincés l'anus", qui ne veut strictement rien dire.

>>5902283
Franco was rather successful.

Nazi Germany and Fascist Italy collapsed because of this thing called ww2, you might have heard of it.

>>5902285
Naturalistic art has its place, but compare it to "modern art" like Van Gogh (degenerate art, according to the Nazis) or Picasso and it can't hope to hold a candle. The Execution of Torrijos could just as easily be a photograph of the scene it portrays and it would lose very little of its power, but the same can't be said for Starry Night - great art usually comes from the personal input of the artist.

Pic related is clearly the best drawing of all time, because it's a faithful representation of the subject without any degenerate "subjectivity" or "emotion"

>>5902274
Man, the guy who wrote the emperors new clothes really knew what he was talking about. But I'm sure I just need to read more art history so I can appreciate the superiority of these complex masterpieces!

>>5902295
That drawing is vastly superior to any picasso piece

>>5902296
>emperors new clothes
What a coincidence that this same line of thinking is used by Harry Potter fans who hate Ulysses

>>5902300
What makes this painting any better than a photograph of the same people in the same position?

>>5902307
Style.

>>5902320
At what point in art history does the imposition of the artist's style at the expense of strict realism start to bother you? Is Turner degenerate?

>>5902328
That looks nice.

I like art as long as it looks beautiful

Pic related does not look beautiful.

ITT: art history faggot who tries to justify his commie tier ideology with good "taste"

>>5902204
>Every peasant contributed to german romanticism with his being
If by being you mean work force and servitude.

>>5902159
THIS is real football. the rest is gay shit.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y6E9sJ6B-u8

>>5902333
>art has a history
Wow, such a cancerous ideology

>>5902332
Well yeah, I often prefer beautiful art too, but beauty isn't a requirement of art. The "muh pretty pictures" definition of art beloved in YouTube comment sections is wayyy off. Goya's Saturn isn't traditionally beautiful (dodgy proportion, messy strokes, clearly drawn heavily from imagination) but nevertheless it's a great work of art.

>>5902332
You're not answering the question. Looking beautiful means nothing if you don't define it a bit, you're just saying "if I don't like it it's degenerate" like some toddler.

>>5902285
not the anon you're replying but Im interjecting anyway. Art doesn't have to do shit, its just something/anything that's appreciated aesthetically. People that haven't been exposed to much art generally look for narrative and decorative features in art, in the same way that people thatve never been to a car show look for the biggest spoilers and the loudest engines. There's a whole lot of shit that can toyed with and examined (in interesting ways) outside of those things, so fuck you if you think you get to draw the line

>>5902346
>but beauty isn't a requirement of art
I disagree. In fact, I'd define art as something made by man which is beautiful.

>>5902349
I believe that beauty is objective.

>>5902284
>because universal education wouldn't exist
You are aware the modern education system was invented during the Prussian monarchy? Fuckbois like Kant and Hegel got to be some of the first non-aristocrat circle philosophers because of the the system back then.

>>5902283
>nazis
>reactionary
Pick1. It was the Enlightenment taken to the extreme. Meanwhile monarchies lasted for centuries even if sometimes the dynasty changed.

>>5902353
How can it be objective if you can't define it? If anything you keep insisting it is subjective by reandomly choosing what has it and what doesn't.

>>5902252
>video games
As someone who has over 4 real years of gametime on various generations of consoles and PC, I can say that this is wrong and shoudn't happen regardless. A capitalist invention like video games can't ever achive(again) enough elitism to be the aesthetic geist of the world. It's bad enough already that the mass man has invaded video games, but now even the cultural terrorists are after then.

>>5902363
I do think we can define it. For example, I've never seen anyone say that geometrical shapes are ugly. This points towards the fact that geometrical shapes are objectively beautiful.

There's an objective foundation to aesthetics.

>>5902353
>I'd define
I'm sure you would, but I care more about the opinions of experts in the field throughout history than photorealist Nazis on the Internet

>beauty
>objective
If my friend finds Michelangelo's David beautiful and I just find it ehhh, is one of us more correct than the other? Do we have to poll the entire human race to find out, objectively, whether it is beautiful or not? Who decides what's beautiful? God? Are you really so arrogant as to believe that your taste in art is objectively the best, based on criteria that you've constructed yourself?

>>5902067
tbh hitler was absolutely shit at painting
objectively

>>5902252
>work quality is dictated by the medium
>a medium has inherent meaning
>a medium can be all around better than other
don't say such awful things!

>>5902307
The skill required.

>>5902373
>I'm sure you would, but I care more about the opinions of experts in the field throughout history than photorealist Nazis on the Internet
Nice appeal to authority. You should try forming your own opinions from time to time.

>If my friend finds Michelangelo's David beautiful and I just find it ehhh, is one of us more correct than the other? Do we have to poll the entire human race to find out, objectively, whether it is beautiful or not? Who decides what's beautiful? God? Are you really so arrogant as to believe that your taste in art is objectively the best, based on criteria that you've constructed yourself?
You misunderstand. Obviously some people will like a certain art piece more than others. There is a subjective touch when it comes to appreciating art. But just because you don't like a certain art piece doesn't mean that it's ugly : you can not really like Michelangelo's paintings, but that doesn't mean that they're not beautiful.

Likewise, even if you pretend to like "can of artist's shit", it doesn't make it beautiful.

>>5902287
>Franco was rather successful.
True. Spain is a pseudo-democracy. The control of everything is still in the same hands.

>>5902381
Are you trying to imply that the more difficult it is to do something the more value it has? Are you sure you're looking at the painting and not the wiki article about it?

>>5902385
>Nice appeal to authority. You should try forming your own opinions from time to time.
It's called reading about a subject you're interest in, it tends to teach more than debating people who openly recognize not to have given more though to the topic than a few threads.

>>5902393
>It's called reading about a subject you're interest in, it tends to teach more than debating people who openly recognize not to have given more though to the topic than a few threads.
What do you think of the rest of my post?

>>5902390
That's a weird criteria. Would you compare WW2 Germany against the current economy and say that money has greatly changed hands? If anything Spain has a bigger french presence right now and just as much german.

>>5902367
>>5902367
Video games arent a capitalist invention(the first videogame, Spacewar!, was not for sale). They just use the capitalist model of funding, but this is a necessity if they are to achieve anything, since the best games are the most complex. Games just seem vacuous because our society is vacuous, youre not going to get more out of painting this day and age.

>>5902385
I formed my own opinions but coincidentally, on learning more, they turned out to mirror pre-established ones, presumably in the same way that you formed yours and they turned out to be the same as Joseph Goebbels'

I'm a fan of paintings by Holman Hunt, but I'm sure there are many people who, for various reasons, do not find them beautiful. My belief that they're beautiful does not mean that people who believe that they're not are lying or misguided. Nor does their belief that Hunt didn't paint beautiful art make my belief invalid. Different things are beautiful to different people.
Many people have wept over Rothko's paintings - are they all pretending? Are they objectively wrong in finding his work beautiful?

As a side-note, why do reactionaries making a fuss about "degeneracy" always use the most extreme examples of modern art to the point that it doesn't even reflect it accurately? An abstract painting by Rothko, a Manzoni can of shit (evidently understanding irony is also a degenerate trait)... maybe if I'm lucky you'll link me to Interior Semiotics next, O scholar

>>5902395
You didn't say anything
>complaining about appeal to authority
>Obviously there's subjectivity
>Not liking doesn't make not beauty
>you can't pretend my overused example
The amount of discussion that work generated just in 4chan should make it an iconic piece in art history. But it's just a gimmicky work, it happens and there's no reason to care about it.

Art, if anything, should be about generating though. How much "nice" it has doesn't matter to anyone except the worse kind of hedonist, trying to force beauty into everything and failing to get other feelings.

>>5902399
>since the best games are the most complex. Games
Cheap teleology go away.
You shouldn't think that harder to do means better after age 18 and getting sick of power metal solos.

>>5902400
They chose always the same examples because they can't be bothered to search more just like they are refusing to read the most introductory aesthetics text.

>>5902404
Thats right children, NES games are the peak of artistic creation! Or maybe you should realize that complexity means more room to fulfill your artistic vision. Its not that complexity automatically makes something better, complexity can also make something worse. Just compare the worst painting youve ever seen to the worst movie to the worst game and the worst game will always be the worst bexause its terribleness will assault you on the visual, musical and interactive plane.

>>5902332

Is a Bosch "beautiful" how bout a Francis Bacon?

>>5902404
>Cheap teleology go away.

That's not what teleology means.

>>5902355
Yes, I took some interest in how universal education came about. I'm not as well read on it as I'd like, but I know a little. Are you mentioning it because I said I'm a monarchist? The later monarchs are not the ones I have in mind, they seem to have simply paved the way for nationalism, something the Prussian education system aided with its unifying effect.

>>5902416
When did I mention NES? You said that the best is the most complex, if you're gonna tone down on your discourse don't get mad at your audience. My issue was your idea that having more room to fill means every work needs all that space, and that technological progress implies a quality progress which isn't inherent like that.
It's the same as saying that the bigger painting is the best painting, since more canvas means more space to do art. That's dumb, each work should be as complex and deep as that work should be.

>>5902429
I was referencing his idea that the posterior instance is the definitive one, but I checked and my use of the word has been affected by reading it in other places.

>>5902421
not him but Bosch aint beautiful
fra angelico is beautiful

>>5902399
Please faggot. The art of video games aren't in your muh artsy indie shit hipsters who haven't played a single PC point n click from the 90s make. It's in the gameplay.

>>5902142
>literally thinks that's aesthetically pleasing

>>5902399
People need to stop perpetuating this myth that video games are bad right now because all art is bad right now. Look at film, which is arguably better than it has ever been and is by far the most vital and important art medium that exists today.

>>5902462
I wish film could have the strenght and originality it had during the 60's. If anyone tried to do something like structuralist films would be accused of being a hipster waste of money. Any revolutionary strength film had has been fully dulled in the masses.

>>5902456
>aesthetically pleasing
what is this? the 1800s? do you feel the whole society needs to go through the shit that was the enlightenment again just because you can't open a history book?

>>5902400
>Many people have wept over Rothko's paintings - are they all pretending?
Seriously? Who weeps over Rothko?

>>5902468
I'm just saying it's fucking ugly.

>>5902468
>what is this? the 1800s? do you feel the whole society needs to go through the shit that was the enlightenment again just because you can't open a history book?
Really? You are asking why society needs to reinstate the best era in european history?

>>5902475
>the best era
>pseudo science bonanza
>universalizing europe's history
>everyone should be the same way because rationality makes europe absolute
>money makes you a human being, if you don't have money you are royalty, there is no in between
>it's okay to keep everything from religion if we say it's for us
>everything is about us, rich people
The enlightenment eventually resulted in the far superior modernity, but it was a shit period no matter how you see it.

>>5902452
Lmao, if I thought retarded indie games were art i wouldnt have called for complexity, stupid. And the art of video games arent "in" the gameplay, theyre "outside" the whole thing, which is why they have both pretty pictures and sound and narrative and mechanics.

>>5902462
Nobody said that video games are bad right now, theyre better than ever.

>>5902483
>superior
Don't you have some analtytical vs continental thread to troll.

>>5902470
He's pretty notorious for it, famously talked about how the people who cry in front of his paintings are feeling the same religious feeling which he felt when he painted them

"Spectators of works by Mark Rothko, the American Abstract Expressionist, are often moved to tears. There is something about the large expanses of colour which the artist deploys with such subtlety that puts the viewer in touch with the absolute. Awed by these visions of infinity, many break down and cry. The Rothko Chapel in Texas is a popular destination for art lovers, its interior exclusively decorated with large abstract Rothkos. One should not be surprised to discover that, besides security guards, there are also counsellors on duty to offer comfort to those visitors overcome with emotion."

>>5902492
You don't even know what you're trying to say.

>>5902031
You aren't working class and nobody should support reactionaries unless they're a perverse caricature of Calvin's dad. Case dismissed.

I don't think its that you, as a lower class person, should support reactionaries. I think that your opinion isn't supposed to matter.

>>5902049
>they made a big tall le ebin building
>art

Liberals/Leftists always have a hard time admitting the superior quality of work produced by the ideological opposite.

For example, Louis-Ferdinand Céline is one such problem. His work is top tier, but him being a raging antisemite is something they find hard to understand.
How can a "ignoran raycis xD" be a genius? Only my crew can, right?

>>5902693
>Liberals/Leftists always have a hard time admitting the superior quality of work produced by the ideological opposite.

Yeah because that's not totally what right-wing fags mean by his "degenerate hurrr"

I've got a question: is it even important if something does or does not qualify as art? I predict that we will, in coming years, come to have some "objective" understanding of aesthetics, on a neuroscientific basis. But aesthetics and art are obviously two different things, since Dada is art (regardless of any meaningless label of "degeneracy") that is nonaesthetic. And what are we to say "degeneracy" is, anyways? Lacking these (most likely objective) aesthetic qualities? But Picasso is obviously aesthetically pleasing, and so is softcore pornography. So I guess that won't do. But what, then? What is degeneracy, as divorced from aesthetic pleasure? Ask yourself: are you saying anything profound when you call art degenerate, or are you just expressing a more simple-minded sort of discontent and frustration with the "modern world"?

>>5902693
Actually Céline was more of an exception. Also antisemitism was different back then, context, etc.

>>5902860
You are sort of getting this upside down. many people have proposed serious definitons of art from Hume to Frankfurt going through everyone including Hegel and Nietzsche. And that's not counting the people who had been trying to define it while also using the word "god" since the middle ages.
Hegel criteria is pretty cool, it can be summarized as
-Is a work created with the intention of being art
-It exists autonomous by itself, it doesn't need external works to complete its message
-It's recognized by academia and peers as art
But the las 60 years have been moving away from that. In part through content and in part through new media and just the social evolution of art. Many people think that shitting and using plastic are key postmodern mechanics but not really, something way bigger are installations. You have multiple works working as a total work and using the characteristics of the space where it is exposed and respond to what the spectator is doing.
In the end there is no need to define art as long as we understand its effect. If it has lasted so long through so many re interpretations

>>5902735
>anon makes a point against leftist idiocy
>BUT YOU DO IT TOO
That's not an excuse, faggot. If you're too stupid to realise that you just prove his point.

>>5902062
>that's just ripping off Romans architecture with more concrete

>fascist
>nazi

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p7n67wN1lQ4

Ever notice that whenever someone dares to criticize the third reich or any Nazi policies, deeds or "achievements" (such as, let's say, triggering a world war that got 50 million of people killed, half of which being CIVILIANS) there will always be that one fucking guy who always replies to every post in a /pol/tarded way, calling everyone jidf/shills/? The autism is real.

>>5902067
Hitler was shit as a painter you fucking retard. That's why he wasn't admitted to the arts school. And no, the "post-modern trash" nor "suprematism trash" existed in Germany those years, so Hitler was shit as painting.

>>5902031
They won't.
Now fascism is another case. They support the workers, same as the nazis in Germany (ARBEIDEpartei).

>>5902985
Lel he didn't have a certificate because he skipped some time from school, and that's why they couldn't take him in. Learn your history faggot before you start posting about it. Fucking illiterates.

>>5902992
No you fucking retard. He was bad, that's why he wasn't admitted. You can still lie to yourself he was a good painter.

I bet you are so illiterate that you don't even know good painters that were alive during Hitler's regime in Germany. You only post about Hitler because that's the only topic you know.

>>5903000
If that's the case then he'll stop posting hitler stuff when you stop making it into a conversation.

>>5903000
Doesn't the Torah have something in it about how getting angry and shitting yourself is bad?

http://sobadsogood.com/2013/07/22/25-rarely-seen-artworks-painted-by-adolf-hitler/

>O-OY VEY I-I-I MEAN OH GOD Y-YOU PIECE OF R-RACIST TRASH H-HITLER W-WASN'T NEARLY A-AS GOOD AS P-PICASSO
Well no shit he wasn't perfect, why do you think he wanted to go to art school? To get better, silly Kike.

>>5903011
Are you really stupid?
>Well no shit he wasn't perfect, why do you think he wanted to go to art school? To get better, silly Kike.

If you are good then you can go to the art school. He wasn't good so he wasn't admitted.
Do you think he wasn't admitted because a jew didn't like his painting, a conspiracy or something?
Also, seems you know nothing about what a good painting is. You can still post cubist painters and delude yourself that Hitler was good.

>>5903000
Contain your butthurt, Schlomo.

>>5902860
>on a neuroscientific basis
So, you are gonna judge things based on a materialist base?

>>5902225
>Yes there is. Pic related.
Nope. Pic related would look far more aesthetic and interesting in your house than a nude would, which would just look gaudy as fuck. Nudes are pretty much shit outside of quaint period wonder in a museum, and that should be reserved for museum interested in period works. The subject was salvaged a bit by modern art such as Picasso's, at least in terms of interesting, but Picasso is also aesthetically gaudy and is strictly to be relished in a museum.

>>5902031
>So why would a working class person support reactionaries when they call working class people shit for having a job and say people like me should haven't access to intellectual things like education or opera?

Most of the benefits of Monarchy have little to do with a person's class. Reactionaries look down at the poor in today's world because they have all the opportunity to advance themselves, mentally, intellectually, culturally, spiritual, physically, however they chose to get fat and watch sports

>>5903625
Not OP but I am advancing myself, and traditionalists would like to take that away and replace it with, well, watching sports and getting fat.

>>5903630
>and traditionalists would like to take that away and replace it with, well, watching sports and getting fat.

how so

>>5903635
Scrapping public education and probably scrapping public museums.

>>5903625

Isn't that image made by that racist piece of shit Slavros?

>durr race matters to traditionalists because I'm a gopnik piece of shit

>>5903638
Public education is really a waste of money and Kings usually protect what would be in a museum for status

>>5903644
>Isn't that image made by that racist piece of shit Slavros?

I don't think so. Slavros usually loves to tell people he did something, this has no time stamp.
Also slavros is a fascism, a modernist.
But it could be who knows, why does it matter?

>>5903625

It's funny that a mystical Marxism would agree with that graph but interpret materialization of the ideal as a good thing.
I like to think this is what's happening. But also, the other way around, i.e. matter trying to become ideal.

>>5903649
>It's funny that a mystical Marxism would agree with that graph but interpret materialization of the ideal as a good thing.

I don't think its funny. Marxism seeks to destroy western civilization to make way for a universal proletariat cultural.

>>5903654

Chill. I'm not a Marxist.
More like Jüngerian dude. Read "der Arbeiter", where the final stage of 'descent' will actually end up in spiritualizing the human species once more.
That is the logic of cyclical history.

Nigga, do you even alchemy?

>>5903646
See? "Waste of money," so there goes my chance at education. You probably feel the same way about subsidies for colleges.

>Kings usually protect what would be in a museum for status
Yeah, but if I can't actually go into the museum, I'm still be deprived, and left to watch sports and get fat.

>>5903666
>See? "Waste of money," so there goes my chance at education. You probably feel the same way about subsidies for colleges.

saying public education is a waste of money is not the same as saying education is a waste of money. And yes I do feel the same way towards college subsidies.
'
>Yeah, but if I can't actually go into the museum,

Well there is nothing really prevent a peasant from seeing the King's treasures however the monarch usually only invites the nobility to his court.

> I'm still be deprived, and left to watch sports and get fat.

Or better yourself, work on your family and its fortune and a few generations down the line they will make it into the nobility.

>>5902301
Harry Potter is better than Ulysses

>>5903682
>there is nothing really prevent a peasant from seeing the King's treasures
Besides the royal guard you mean? This "people going into castles and taking pics" only happens because no one is interested in using them.

>Or better yourself, work on your family and its fortune and a few generations
That's the same as nothing, literally.
Have you read Jünger? He has this sort of neo napoleonic view of the army and constant war as means to reveal character and mature people. He makes it sound pretty nice.

>>5903682
I thought you were dead.

>Or better yourself, work on your family and its fortune and a few generations down the line they will make it into the nobility.
So, god forbid you mooch off of your neighbors, but it's okay if you mooch off your ancestors?

>>5903694
>Besides the royal guard you mean? This "people going into castles and taking pics" only happens because no one is interested in using them.

What I meant by that was there is nothing stopping the King/Baron/Ruler etc from letting you in.

>That's the same as nothing, literally.
This is why you imagine yourself as a peasant.

>Have you read Jünger? He has this sort of neo napoleonic view of the army and constant war as means to reveal character and mature people. He makes it sound pretty nice.

yes

>>5903682
>saying public education is a waste of money is not the same as saying education is a waste of money
He wasn't saying you were saying that. He was just saying that you make it harder to 'advance yourself' when you take away public education.

>>5903625
>>5903635
>>5903646
>>5903648
>>5903654
>>5903682
>dribble

>>5903760
>He wasn't saying you were saying that. He was just saying that you make it harder to 'advance yourself' when you take away public education.

Yes, that's the point.
When the poor can rise up too fast we get the degeneracy we have today

>>5903638
Public museums and libraries were made popular by monarchs, not to mention most notable culture in mesuems are from kingly times. Stop consufising tories or your little murrican republican party for being traditionalists. Also the whole mass sports shit you are talking about is modernists drivel popularized by totalitarian regimes like nazism and stalinism.

>>5902031
Because they're, as Steinbeck said, "only temporarily embarrassed millionaires". The ruling class always teaches the working class to admire them for being them, and since the people of the working class are made compliant, either with lack of education or with money, they maintain unconsciousness.

>>5903783
>as Steinbeck said, "only temporarily embarrassed millionaires".

Fast upward mobility is a product of the Enlightenment, which Reactionaries also reject.

... I wonder if any "monarchist" has any understanding of history whatsoever.

>>5903682
>Or better yourself, work on your family and its fortune and a few generations down the line they will make it into the nobility.
That's not a realistic expectation. The main opportunity the working class had to transit to bourgeois in pre-modern times was the black death, it made the price of labor skyrocket and so saving up can be made.

But I don't really want to climb in your shitty system where the Rothchilds were made nobility just for being money-lending Jews, as far as I'm concerned the nobility has no better judgement than the haute bourgeoisie. I can only respect someone as inherently superior to me when they've earned, not when they're born into it; Napoleon I could respect and follow as a leader unto death, I could live my life for him, but not for some hotshot Frenchie wearing highheels and squandering the state's money on countless mistresses and fountains that can only run when he's around, now THAT'S decadence.

>>5903746
>yes
And no opinion about it? Why did you think I asked? Just to check?

>>5903808
Obviously not.

>>5903794
>seriously not understanding that Steinbeck was being ironic
>being dribblekid

Choose two

>>5903808
LOL

4chan talking about art feels like the debates I had in first year of art school. You have much to learn.

>>5903848
>That's not a realistic expectation. The main opportunity the working class had to transit to bourgeois in pre-modern times was the black death, it made the price of labor skyrocket and so saving up can be made

Its not realistic in a single lifetime.
However it is over the course of 5 or 6 generations

>But I don't really want to climb in your shitty system where the Rothchilds were made nobility just for being money-lending Jews, as far as I'm concerned the nobility has no better judgement than the haute bourgeoisie. I can only respect someone as inherently superior to me when they've earned, not when they're born into it; Napoleon I could respect and follow as a leader unto death, I could live my life for him, but not for some hotshot Frenchie wearing highheels and squandering the state's money on countless mistresses and fountains that can only run when he's around, now THAT'S decadence.

>>>/leftypol/

>>5903894
The real issue is that the people who could make a vaguely above first year discussion don't really bother to post. No one even mentions Ficino, who would come perfect for this threads.

>>5903908
I don't bother to post because I did bother to post in the past several times and I'm sick and tired of doing it over and over, contextualizing shit and what not. 4chan doesn't change because it's always fucking children taking babby steps, then they either go away or stay manchildren. Me? I'm just visiting because it's christmas.

>>5903903
>Its not realistic in a single lifetime.
>However it is over the course of 5 or 6 generations
No, it's not realistic to expect to become a member of the aristocracy through 5 or 6 generations of making minimum wage and having no government subsidies for education. You aren't going support a family on that and have enough left over to invest significantly, and since you have no access to education, you probably won't know shit about investment.

> >>>/leftypol/
I just commended Napoleon, how did you get lefty out of that? I'm a fascist.

>>5903808
Yes. Monarchies lasted way more than mere 20 years on average that a constitution lasts.

>>5903925
>No, it's not realistic to expect to become a member of the aristocracy through 5 or 6 generations of making minimum wage and having no government subsidies for education

No one said you are forced to make minimum wage your entire life. That doesn't happen IRL

>>5903903
Evola frequently uses the word "bourgeois", you poorly read oaf, and describes himself as "anti-bourgeois".

Your /lit/ card is revoked, if you ever had one.

>>5904090
>No one said you are forced to make minimum wage your entire life. That doesn't happen IRL
It generally does if you aren't educated. Either that or you're a NEET or a criminal. You might get promoted to "manager" in a minimum wage job if you work there long enough, but that's not likely, since managers are generally hired for such.

>>5902474
of course you think vaginas are ugly anon

the battle for beauty takes place in the museum. it's not an inherent property

>>5902896
>-It exists autonomous by itself, it doesn't need external works to complete its message

this is silly. you need to know about the bible or greco-roman myths for the bulk of western art

>>5902031

Actually Evola's view was that a peasant who does his duty is far superior to an aristocrat who fails to do his. The merely social aspects of life, like secular education and opera aren't considered that important, and illiterate peasant with spiritual virility is "higher" than someone with a university degree and high born family who is materialistic.

In a wider view of reaction, people of different types polluting each other's scene is the problem. Standardizing everything and being overly inclusive makes everything based on lowest common denominator values, and more unique and differentiated values get snuffed out for homogeneity at a low level .

Reactionaries claim that working class people should be trained in a way uniquely set out for them, where those who are to be scholars or warriors should have their own kind of unique training, and that there should be as little overlap as possible.

Let the plebs have their music forms, but when the aristocrats music forms starts getting compromised by non aristocrats then we have a problem. Most Traditionalists think that merchants are the problem anyways, plebeians are the backbone of societies and a respected part of it, they usually maintain traditional values to a degree. It's mercantile types who are usually disruptive and ruin things when they get to much power. The working class music is the folk song in the tavern, it can exist along side with the symphony no problem. When the aristocrats lose all their wealth, power and influence, consumerist trash like Justin Bieber fills up stadiums, while classical muscians have a hard time making ends meat. This is where the problem occurs and we need an aristocratic renewal of the arts.

>>5902031
There is literally no argument against social Darwinism apart from "wahh unfair, muh feelings"

>>5904206
You mean nigger societies where people act like thugs and just care about me me me?

Why would you even care about the arts when the most fundamental questions about life haven't been answered by philosophy?

>>5904222
philosophy does not exist to 'answer the most fundamental questions about life'

that is a rather ambiguous phrase anyway; define your terms continentaltard

>>5904196
Stop trying to speak for us, you modernist faggot.

>>5904206
the premise of social darwinism is flawed. it must assume evolution is progressive. it's not.

>>5904612
>stop defining us in a way that isn't flattery or equivocation!

>>5902031
>So why would a working class person support reactionaries
Unconscious ideology
Humans not being rationally thinking free acting beings etc

>>5903654
>Marxism seeks to destroy western civilization.
by the same logic so does Evola.

You could take the same chart, switch Evola's JRPG asspull the names with prevailing means of production, tweak the dates and you would have a close approximation of the Marxist idea of history. Spooky. Consider also Engel's glowing review of Past and Present and how seriously Carl Schmitt took Marx. You may be barking up the wrong tree.

>>5904206
Human beings have removed themselves from natural selection.

>>5904206
>Darwin

Atheists belong on >>>/reddit/

>>5902067
The critique of Hitler's art is that it was utterly banal, not that he lacked the technical skills to produce a banal painting.

Not that you'd understand, you'd probably think Chuck Close is fucking amazing.

>>5904612

Are you serious?, I was defending reactionary politics, Traditionalism and explaining Evola's views, I own 6 of the guy's books and have been on the reactionary right for 3-4 years now.

>>5904196
"Today's generation is dumb. They only care about Justin Gayber and twerking. Truly euphoric and enlightened people enjoy sophisticated topics such as minecraft, /B/, and being a hacker. I was born in the wrong generation." - Anon 2014, certified 280 IQ, euphoric being of enlightenment

>>5904966
Evola is very important to reactionary philosophy, but he isn't the Lord and Savior of us. Most of us are Christians, and his Eastern Mysticism is fucking cancer to Western culture.

>>5905014
Also, Evola was a cum guzzler. Can't take a queer reactionary seriously, just can't.

>>5905027
I don't know if he was, in fact I'd like to see some evidence. But obviously, being homosexual would significantly impact his credibility.

>>5902067
This painting by Hitler is absolute shit. The perspective is failed, and for the year it was made in, it is neither conservative nor avant-garde, just tame-ass shit.

Even the working class know their customs are shit and wish all outfits of expression weren't catered to them, they're like weak willed fat people who hate themselves

Why else would they demand father figures like god or strong leaders

>>5904124
That's a massive generalization. Some vaginas are ugly, some are not, that depiction of a vagina is a tacky piece of shit.

>>5903924
I guess that the really mistaken people are the ones who expect something of value in 4chan when it clearly isn't the place for that. But you can't help of dream about accidentally finding people knowledgable who would share their understanding a foster a short of era of actually original though in an unexpected place. We were trained by movies to expect to be the exception, it just happens.

>>5904132
I assume Hegel would consider them not really works of art as much as objects of cult. If we can now have things really close to art that aren't we can assume we'd have the same in the past, I guess. Maybe as a barely post enlightenment author he just had to assume that biblical knowledge was just as natural as scientific and philosophical knowledge. I can't remember anti particular mention of this, but I'm pretty drunk right now.

>>5905013
You really though that post out. I really respect you as a 4chan poster.

>>5902486
No, they're not; whole genres are basically dead.
If it wasn't for Kickstarter then CRPGs would be dead.
The big publishers are ruining the industry and, sadly, most indies are walking simulators or puzzle platformers.

>>5905294
Good video games were always rare, but they're there

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Art_game

>>5902287
Fascist Spain and Portugal were relegated to irrelevancy after the Second World War. Sidelined by NATO, it was difficult to maintain the relevancy of your ideology when it had been defeated and denounced by rival powers in the space of six years.

>>5902081
All those are degenerate trash though.

>>5902107
You're objectively wrong. I am a reactionary and I don't believe in meritocracy. Nobility IS in the blood, and the aristocracy derive their right to rule from God, not from merit or popular acclaim.

>>5902081
That was the one thing the regime did right. Romanticism is the greatest movement to ever occur and anything else is degenerate garbage.

>>5902345
Sarah Silverman is such shit. Why is she on television?

>>5908555
>Silverman

>>5908216
romanticism is trash and single-handedly caused degenerate art to exist. get the fuck out

>>5908561
Yeah, but people don't come to her show because she is a jew.

>>5905032
>being homosexual would impact his credibility.
>Traditionalist
ohboy

>>5908575
People would come to any goddamn show that was on, it's her show because of Jewish nepotism and also because Jewish media propaganda brainwashes the masses with Jewish values and messages 24/7.

>>5908581
Could you attempt to express yourself more clearly please?

>>5908593
Julius Evola couldn't have been "homosexual" in the modern sense of identity, but homosexual activity (sodomy) is deeply ingrained in the fabric of western civ and is a critical component of male hierarchy and behaviour.

>>5908618
What nonsense.