/lit/ - Literature

>>5860063
>>>/pol/

>>5860063
It's in the logic of late capitalism

FUCK OFF NOT LITERATURE

cultural appropriation can be both cool and funny therefore im all for it

>>5860083
So can genocide

I think those people who spend a month in Thailand or India and come home as Buddhists with dream catchers above their beds and precious stones under their pillows and walk around Shoreditch in elephant pants and saris with Henna all up their arm - I think those people are lame as hell.

>>5860083
funny yes

cool i'm not sure

http://www.tumblr.com/search/Red+Indian

i'm browsing this and I just want to punch most of the people there. All these girls thinking they're being cute with that nonense

>>5860090
>visiting tumblr to deliberately get pissed off and posting about it to people you want to agree with you

Sure is /pol/ in here.

With globalization, more open boarders, increased migration flows, social media becoming a bigger part of social reality etc. etc. it's only going to get worse/better (depending on your perspective).

ALL THAT IS SOLID MELTS INTO AIR - Karl Marx.

It's a concept for 115iq white people with fetishes for self-flagellation.

>>5860123
>"blah blah blah white guilt"

really?

>Woah dude, these headdresses are so siiiiiiiiiick, Indians rule, right on brah

There's a lot of whiny bullshit, but I'm pretty against cultural appropriation. You look like a tool doing it, and you out yourself as ignorant and incapable of empathetic analysis.

Just look at shit like Iggy Azalea. How nobody looks at this shit and thinks "this is lame as shit" is beyond me. An Australian pretending to be a working-class black woman from Georgia is retarded as fuck.

>>5860138
i'm jewish, not white

Serious question, does the Wu-Tang aesthetic count as cultural appropriation or is their way of doing it acceptable?

Because they enjoy japanese culture and pay homage to it, but in essence (including dressing, speech, etc) they remained essentially poor black people from the US

>>5860149
that's not my point

>>5860063
It's a croc of shit. Cultures don't belong to anybody, which means you can't appropriate them. They can't be stolen. The very fact that people use something from another culture like native american hats to look hip at concert is a sign that that culture is now part of ours not because we own it (only a retarded capitalist spawn sjw could ever think this) but because we've been exposed to it, it's in our minds, it's in our art and in our history books.
The concept that people should be offended if you use something from their culture is even sillier, and that's assuming native americans still use war bonnets.
If I were a native american I would sell overpriced war bonnets to hipsters on etsy or some shit.

>>5860156
you didn't make a point; you posted "really" and expected the rest of the thread to read your mind as if you were a 17 year old white chick

>>5860160
You implied white guilt exists, while it doesn't.

That wasn't so hard now was it?

>>5860090
they are, i would totally fuck them with that shit on.

>>5860163
i don't even know what you're saying. a white person has never felt guilt? there aren't 115iq white undergraduates with weird pseudo-historical self-punishment complexes? both of those things are pretty easy to verify.

>>5860155
Wu-Tang just loved comic books and Japanese movies. They did not start going "Oh Method-san! ODB-chan thinks you are a baka!' or wearing kimonos or any of that noise.

Definitely not cultural appropriation. Art is made to be shared with the world anyway, so all those goofy karate movies definitely can't be appropriated

>>5860155
I think that's the key difference: because they're not even pretending to be Asian, but just using a few symbols in a pretty reverential manner it feels much more like homage than appropriation, say in a case of some urban white girl pretending she knows what being a native American is all about with her ponchos

>>5860170

There's no such thing as cultural apropiation. Just cause a weeb says "baka" instead of "idiot" doesn't mean he owns it or stole it from anyone. Just like how the rest of the internet apropiates 4chan memes it doesnt mean shit.

>>5860149
Please use this while browsing here.

>>5860157
>calls others capitalist spawn
>wants to profit off of people's stupidity

Merchant pls

it's funny because a huge portion of east asians are racist as shit and would probably be angry that blacks wanted to imitate them

>>5860157
Seconded.

Culture is not property. Anyway, any cursory look into American history shows many cultural exchanges between whites and natives, both "appropriating" from each other constantly. We don't give native american kids shit for wearing flannel and blue jeans, so don't give white kids shit for painting their faces. It's fucking stupid and it doesn't matter and people need to stop whining about shit.

Many people read books to see things from the view of others. Denying the author the same liberty in writing as people have in reading is nonsensical.

consider: most people really into sjwisms like "cultural appropriation" are white middle to upper middle class kids. they are generally born to people who have been christian for centuries. now, what is one of the most important novelties of the christian religion? its method for overcoming human guilt in the face of its conception of divinity. surely the popularity of the religion indicates, at least to some extend, that this type of guilt complex was a common issue among some portion of these ancestors. now consider that most of these sjws are atheist. they have abandoned their forefathers' strategy for dealing with their guilt, which likely exists to some extent because of heredity and continued customs of their racial group and social strata. with no outlet for these feelings. what can they do? they manufacture an atheistic version of the original sin based on half-understood high school history classes and repent before strangers their privilege isolates them from.

tl;dr sjwism is uneducated people trying to solve one of the problems christianity did much more elegantly and healthfully for their ancestors

>>5860177
>make crafts
>enjoy making crafts
>sell crafts
>AHHAHAAHHA MY CUSTOMERS SURE ARE STUPID
Alrighty then.

>>5860174
The main deal is that cultural appropriation does exist but it's not always bad. White people copped rock and roll from African Americans, but it wasn't sacred to them or anything so it was just an "ehhh whatever"

Something sacred to a culture (like Native American headdresses) being pointlessly and meaninglessly used by people because "it looks cool" is where people get mad. Maybe a bit more than I think is rational, but I'm not part of their cultures so I can't say I understand their exact feelings

>>5860202
that feel when you spend more than 20 seconds writing a post and nobody reads it

>>5860180
what's even funnier is that a huge portion of east asians e.g. the chinese are huge blackboos.

>>5860232
nobody responds to christian crap
this is an agnostic website

>>5860204
>The main deal is that cultural appropriation does exist but it's not always bad. White people copped rock and roll from African Americans, but it wasn't sacred to them or anything so it was just an "ehhh whatever"

yeah yeah yeah

I think it's about the inner logic of whatever cultural practice you're trying to "appropriate"

popular music, manga, and shit like that pretty much grew as modern industries, seeking to create as much demand and expand itself into as many markets as possible. therefore it's bound to be mutated and mixed in the process

this a long shot from someone turning something like their traditional clothings - never really mixed and long removed from popular market - into commodity, or adopting abstract notions like speech as his own.

there's also other things to take into account, like the inherent relationship with artforms and practices of other cultures. like you said, it's a good thing white and african popular music mixed, and the thought of someone white playing jazz, which has many roots in european classical tradition, isn't as ludicrous as a white dude trying to be a 100% hip hop dude

>>5860253
i don't think anything in my argument could accurately be characterized as christian. the conclusion is more of a provocation than anything else; the rest is not religious

stay low iq, brother

>>5860204
>but it wasn't sacred to them or anything so it was just an "ehhh whatever"
actually most black people who felt they got ripped off got pretty mad.

>>5860261
question: is it more ridiculous for a white kid from a poor urban area to try to be 100% hip-hop or for an educated, upper middle class african (like africa african, not african american) to do so? because i've seen examples of each. the africans don't face this authenticity nonsense despite having a much more tenuous connection to the culture surrounding hip-hop.

let's admit that cultural appropriation is a nonsense concept, intellectually, and is only relevant to anything because it is used as a point of attack in american racial politics

>>5860063
Well, it is silly, as cultural identity is not something derserving of protection.

>>5860282

>>5860282
also let's further admit that a lot of these "racial" issues only are as large as they are because the upper half of white society uses them to antagonize each other

>>5860271
Yeah, but I think that's due being ripped off without credit and then having to come through the back door of the club to perform and not being allowed into club if not performing.

>>5860282
Is it cultural appropriation if an asian american girl named Shirley is late for school and runs with a toast in her mouth and says "baka" to his boyfriend?

>>5860173
>because they're not even pretending to be Asian, but just using a few symbols in a pretty reverential manner it feels much more like homage than appropriation

Couldn't that be understood as fetishizing, though?

>>5860282
i think no culture will ever be 100% homogeneous so there's no point in asking "what about such and such white person in such and such background"

let's just say there's an obvious difference between a white person being raise in a black ghetto and that essentially being his cultural background and a white person in his mid 20s suddenly deciding that it's pretty cool to act black and tell black people what real hip hop is and isn't

your middle-class black dude example is also nonsensical because that's like asking if a westernized middle-class chinese living in the us should have absolutely no ties at all with chinese culture

>>5860297
it's cultural appropriation for the american part of her but not the asian part

>>5860296
>I think that's due being ripped off without credit
Its not ripping off to make a song that is the same genre as some other song, or has similar sonority. We know this now, but Chuck Berry really was unique shit and when the Beach Boys came he was mad as fuck because his popularity was fading and theirs was rising.
So maybe that wasn't so much "eh whatever" just because it wasn't "sacred".

>>5860303
i don't mean middle class black dude, i mean middle class AFRICAN with no real connection to inner city black american culture. like this guy for example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BSYM10-t9zA

notice the total lack of hateful authenticity-questioning comments

>>5860303
the example is nonsense because the concept is nonsense. not than anon though.

>>5860317
see >>5860315 for an example

>>5860315
well take for example a person of anglo-saxon or german heritage with his family living in the US for generations now

neither in theory nor in practice there's a gap wide enough between their cultural tradition and experience to say there's anything wrong with said american person listening and mimicking british rock or that weird german industrial music and their respective subcultures. it can be silly depending of the extent, but definitely not offensive to either of them.

truth is, i don't know. this is the first time i'm even thinking about it and i haven't really grasped the essence of this. like i said, i usually dismiss it as silly but the more i think about it the more (some of) the SJW who talk about this make some sense

but frankly i have no idea where this last king of scotland shit you posted ranks within that system of analysis, i didn't even know they made music videos over there

>>5860340
>i haven't really grasped the essence of this
look it's basically this
a few years ago there were minor hissyfits because someone dressed in blackface or something at halloween. an ad campaign ensued to discourage people from this, saying "cultures aren't costumes". so people stopped doing this, but then some girl at coachella wore a war bonnet and the instagram picture arrived on tumblr.
this is the essence of the problem.

Can any white person in this thread explain why white people feel its their privilege and duty to get offended for other races?

This whole Washington Redskins fiasco is blown up by people who find it "extremely offensive."

Why can't white people let others speak?

Why are the ones fighting racism and colonialism the most racist and colonialist?

>>5860202
>>5860232
>>5860253

I think you might be on to something with your argument. The idea that there is a deep-seated self-loathing that people have expressed in different ways over the years--it feels like its worth investigating. Religion, in this case Christianity, is one example, and modern movements in liberalism can also be read that way.

I would go so far as to connect this to the whole "environmentalism is becoming a religion" idea. In fact, that case may be stronger since a lot of greens think of the planet's ecology as a transcendent expression of life with which they seek to commune, much like the Christian idea of God or the Buddhist concept of Brahman.

>>5860362
my hypothesis is summarized in >>5860202

>>5860362
>Why can't white people let others speak?

I thought this whole business started with native-american organizations protesting the name

What I find problematic is that any syncretism is now morally abhorrent.

Truly, I can't imagine anything in this world not being the result of an exchange, of indeed even shamelessly 'appropriating', i.e. making it your own.

In other words, they want to own the exclusive rights to a culture ( which by the way no tribe or culture ever cared for ).
Nice to do exactly what third positionist fascists want to.

>>5860362
>Why are the ones fighting racism and colonialism the most racist and colonialist?
this is what amuses me
they do this with every topic they talk about, but with this specific one it's so blatant: multiculturalism is good but it's only good if everyone is THEIR OWN culture, rite guise?

'cultural appropriation' is just good old fashioned exoticism. like if people in africa start saying 'old bean' and wearing top hats no one would give a shit but somehow every aspect of foreign culture is mystical and deeply significant.

>>5860362
native american groups have been kicking off about that name for ages tbf

>>5860374
> tell the redskin that being called a redskin is offensive, he's too stupid to not see how offensive this is to him and his peoples

The guy who designed the logo was native and his grandchildren support it.

Oh, yeah, I forgot. Natives are too brainwashed to think proper thoughts. The white man needs to help him because the white man thinks better thoughts than the r--skin.

>>5860393
I thought people were upset with the name and not the logo. Are people upset with the name and the logo?

>>5860362

white person reporting in with the white perspective (as if u had to ask for a white person to do that lol)

i'm not personally offended by the name redskins. but other people are and have raised their voice to speak on it so i'm a supporter of changing it

>>5860141
>How nobody looks at this shit and thinks "this is lame as shit" is beyond me
a lot of people do that, though. like, most people
>>5860155
cultural appropriation and acceptable aren't mutually exclusive. wu-tang is clearly appropriative but it's not a type or appropriation that anyone could logically be opposed to.

The same people who push for the Washington R--skins name change are the same ones who insist on using "African-American" instead of black, because, uh, you know we say "European-American" and not "hwhite."

>>5860383
Commoditization and fetishization aren't symptoms of multiculturalism, quite the opposite, and date back to a time when our modern notions of multiculturalism weren't unthinkable to the western mind. If the people dressing lolzy as native americans and muslim steoretypes were half as interested in their culture as they claim to be when do the whole "I'm not a racist" speech and would, say, pick a book about islamic culture and native american history from time to time, then definitely it wouldn't be as big of a problem as it is.

>>5860402
They support the name.

>>5860403
Other "European-Americans" are offended by the name so now you support changing it?

>>5860408
>Commoditization and fetishization aren't symptoms of multiculturalism
I didn't say they are

>>5860413

i think that if something is offensive enough to prompt people to organize and air their grievances, it's worth taking them seriously

what is the harm in changing the name, anyway? pls answer this question, how are u hurt by not changing the name?

i personally know members of the morongo tribe in southern california who do not appreciate the name. "redskins" is a racial slur, at least as far as many natives are concerned. whether or not you agree, isn't in our best interest as a society to take other people seriously?

>>5860393
You're speaking as if all native americans had a consensus about it, and no native american took part in the protests against it.

If one family of a certain ethnic and cultural background profits over a particular practice that is offensive to the rest of the people who share that identity, that doesn't make it ok just because the people responsible for it were part of that community as well. It's also completely dishonest to portray it as white people getting mad in other people's name, and I'm sure you have some clever parallel to draw with the "white man's burden" to reach to the conclusion that we are the real racists, but trust me, in this case and the huge majority of other cases, it's not really going to work.

The only people who think only white people are aware of such matters are white people who only know white people.

>>5860426

obviously i meant to ask: "how are you hurt by changing the name?" and maybe i can add... "how is anyone hurt by changing the name?"

>>5860405
dude the inclusion of "hwite" at the end made your post top quality

>you should consome responsibly

Ok, SJW. Thanks for your wonderful suggestions again.

>>5860405

except "black" isn't literally a racial slur are you serious

>>5860405
i don't even

I eat chinese food regularly. I am not Han Chinese, nor do I have any Asian, East Asian, South-East Asian, Ainu, or Middle Eastern background.

Am I a racist?

What's the difference between wearing clothes that don't match your skin colour and eating food not common amongst people with your skin colour?

I pay money and show the world that I eat chinese food and they can tell that I'm not Asian.

On a scale of 1-10, how problematic and racist is it that I eat kung pao chicken?

>>5860441

i'd say your sophistry is about a 10 on the scale problematique

Well all we do is prance around with silly looking stuff and put it in our homes to give it that little extra.
We don't literally claim it is ours like some others do.

>>5860436
>>5860439
Why do we say African-American then?

It's clearly an othering tactic to mystify and exoticize a people's whose legacy and culture is thoroughly American.

"African-American" should be considered an extremely offensive slur. It reinscribes a whole system of cultural and racial oppression.

>>5860426
>"redskins" is a racial slur
Not american here.
I truly don't understand how you people decide this shit. "redskins" is just something people started calling the natives when it was apparent they were not indians. In fact I'm pretty sure "indian" is much less respectful. It's the same thing as calling african americans "black".

>>5860441
0.

This is not what any of this is about but I'm curious to see how far you guys can go with deliberate, cynical misinterpretations of the whole issue:

>uuuhh dude I'm using a technological device made in China right now and I'm not even chinese does that mean I'm a racist lmao??? SJW are sooo stupid

>>5860441
Are you white? If so, you are racist.
If you are nonwhite, you are still racist by way of internalized racism that your disprivileged upbringing has not given you the tools to analyze properly. Please consult your nearest 20something Wesleyan graduate for further consultation

>>5860450

>I truly don't understand how you people decide this shit.

are you surprised that it's pretty complicated? i'm not an expert on how things become racial slurs but "redskins" is part of a group of words that are widely considered racial slurs

that wide consideration is what makes it a racial slur

>>5860445
What's the difference though?

I go to a muslim clothing store and buy one of their robes and wear it or I go to a locally owned kebab restaurant and eat 100% halal sharwarma.

I'm not muslim. I'm not even arab.

Is it not a crime because I don't post it on instagram? If I posted it on instagram then people would throw a fit?

Just because some stoned white chick at Coachella wears a hat doesn't mean that all white people who don't wear a native hat suddenly give a shit about Native-American oppression that isn't newsworthy.

>>5860461
>pissing in the well

>>5860447

>
It's clearly an othering tactic to mystify and exoticize a people's whose legacy and culture is thoroughly American.

where the fuck do you people come up with this stuff

i mean do you actually think that people consciously use the phrase "african american" as an othering tactic? honestly?

i don't mean to be a cunt but if that's really what you're suggesting, let's just pretend i never replied to you :(

>>5860451
Tell me what the difference is. Halal food is for Muslims.

They allow me to purchase it in the same way that I could go buy clothing made by Native Americans.

It has the blessings of the merchants but not of white people.

White people have the monopoly on what's considered racist.

>>5860466
internal consistency is a problematic white-devil-invented concept that is not relevant to this one's Lived Experience

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eGgj9S8XO7k

this dude knows what's up.
common sense =/= SJW

>>5860466

you're building these ideological stances on countless different sophistries

what does this have to do with instagram?

>>5860471
It's not conscious. The most harmful forms of racism and oppression are exactly that - unconscious.

We're simply making these problematic socio-linguistic cultural norms conscious and thereby facilitating more emancipatory forms of dialogue and social engagement.

Never EVER say "African-American" again.

>>5860483

>Never EVER say "African-American" again.

you need to interact with more real life people, especially african americans

>>5860481
Racism is only a problem if it's newsworthy and clickable.

>>5860447
First of all black isn't a slur, second of all complements like that are used only when to designate one's heritage when they're outside of the ethnical or cultural majority. You don't have to say "european-american" because the term "american" itself apart from meaning anyone who resides in the US also comes loaded with the implication of a protestant, german/english person. Other european people who escape this are also usually refered to by their specific countries of origin, or are you going to tell me you've never heard of "irish-american" or "italian-american"? Even people who lived there before you are usually refered to as "native" americans, "european" american is the default.

Your whole angle here is really really silly

>>5860362
Because Kipling.

>>5860495

i realize you're probably being sarcastic but you're not really communicating anything clearly

this whole thread has been pretty much what you just did: sassy little one liners that dance around the very basic issue

what is so hard about taking seriously the grievances of other people? even if you don't share them yourself, why is this so complicated for you?

Too bad most qt's on tumblr embrace this bullshit.

>>5860499
Do you know how problematic that is? You're triggering me right now so bad.

If you think black Americans and Africans share a cultural bond and consider each other as "brothas" you are absolutely clueless.


>>5860487
> if you spent more time with African-AmericansTM you'd realize how much they love being called African-AmericanTM

>>5860507
I can take their grievances seriously but I don't do it for them. Cultural appropriation being problematic exists only because white people say "look at how offensive this is to you!" And then they take the reins and march their protest for them.

Read the essay "Can the Sub-Altern Speak" by Spivak.

Identity politics is for white people.

>>5860462
>are you surprised that it's pretty complicated?
My issue with it is exactly that it doesn't sound complicated at all, but completely and utterly arbitrary instead.
The word that in my language directly translates to "nigger" never was a racial slur here until the civil rights movement. "Nigger" was a racial slur, but not the word in my language. Nevertheless, when civil rights hit someone decided it was a racial slur too and it was absolutely terrible to use it, and that you should instead use some retarded meaningless paraphrase.
Now, is there a reason for "redskins" to be a slur in a country that still largely uses "injuns" with no intention to offend or was it decided overnight like this?

>>5860525
>Do you know how problematic that is? You're triggering me right now so bad.

hahah get it people he's acting like a tumblrite to attack the same positions they adopt and claim the same moral highground and angle isn't it clever

>>5860532

yo, the word "nigger" was also not considered a racial slur until the civil rights movement

the civil rights movement didn't come until the civil rights movement

>>5860525

>You're triggering me right now so bad.

>>5860536
You act like SJWism isn't a diverse rich movement capable of self-critique and perspective.

Fuck off, ignorant /pol/ bigot.

>>5860555

pretty sure you oughta re-read that post

>>5860555

>SJWism is a serious thing

No it's a fucking cancer and at best it can only moralize, never politicize.
SJW can be summarized as follows: if everyone would walk on eggshells we're basically in utopia.

>>5860525
>Do you know how problematic that is? You're triggering me right now so bad.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/little_bitch_syndrome

Man up. Grow a thicker skin.

>>5860564

>No it's a fucking cancer and at best it can only moralize, never politicize.
>SJW can be summarized as follows: if everyone would walk on eggshells we're basically in utopia.

what a unique perspective from a white dude on 4chan

so glad you decided to share

>>5860562
Fuck off /pol/.

>>5860568
It's "European-American" shitlord.

We're talking about the systemic oppression of Native Americans and here you are willfully reinscribing the trope of Americans as ethnically white.

/pol/ cancer is leaking so bad

>>5860542
>yo, the word "nigger" was also not considered a racial slur until the civil rights movement
Literally first thing you see when you look up "nigger":
>Nigger is a noun in the English language. The word originated as a neutral term referring to black people,[1] as a variation of the Spanish/Portuguese noun negro, a descendant of the Latin adjective niger ("color black").[2] Often used disparagingly, by the mid 20th century, particularly in the United States, it suggested that its target is extremely unsophisticated. Its usage has become unambiguously pejorative, a common ethnic slur usually directed at blacks of Sub-Saharan African descent.
This never happened in my language, only the part about it being a neutral term. It was even used in movies and other stuff because it wasn't an insult. The voice acting in The Jeffersons has "nigger" used when they use "black" in multiple instances, and that was 20 years after the civil rights movement.

>>5860525
>Read the essay "Can the Sub-Altern Speak" by Spivak.
That essay is bullshit and Spivak is a ridiculously privileged person.

>>5860568

How far do you think this tribalism is gonna serve this and the next generation?

>>5860579

lol so now /pol/ is where people go to get nonwhite perspectives on culture and race in the US?

i guess i'll take your advice and hit the road then

>>5860555
Yu're just embarrassing now

No, not your character, the person behind it. Literally everyone can call the act an you're not even witty or educated enough to make it work.

Just pretend you were joking all along and stop making me cringe

>>5860590

don't really give a fuck but i know you're going to pretend to for the sake of being a sophist

there's plenty of people in this thread who don't adopt the melting pot view of what culture should but but all of a sudden you're acting like that's so shocking

fuck yourself

Rich people can afford to import art from other cultures.
Poor people can't and have to live in the culture they were born in.

This is a privilege of rich (in this case white) people, but it's much less destructive than literal looting and pillaging. I think this is the sort of thing rich people ought to do with their privilege. Alexander the great was a huge Persiaboo, and his bringing Asian influences to Greek culture created what we now know of as Western culture. Cultures mixing in this way is definitely a good thing for humanity, particularly if you value tolerance and multiculturalism. No amount of tumblerites will convince me otherwise. Sure whitegirls with feathers is dumb, but that kind of vapidness is just a harmless side effect.

>>5860141
>empathetic analysis.
massivekek

Cultural appropriation isn't a valid criticism. That's just what culture is, there's a constant interplay. Imagine the Greeks telling the Buddhists they can't make statues in their style because it belongs to them, or Black Americans being forbidden from appropriating white culture by using their instruments.

I understand the feeling people have when they consider their culture 'disrespected' by others flippant use of it, but nobody has the right to deny them that.

>>5860595
That guy is obviously from /pol/ and being fascetious.

>>5860606

>Poor people can't and have to live in the culture they were born in.

Maybe before the 20th century.

>>5860595
Fuck off.
>>5860603
Check you privilege. Not everyone is white enough to study third-wave feminism at university.

>>5860477
>guy didn't even know what cultural appropriation was
sounds like he was so troubled by it

>>5860622

>fuck off

>>5860613

u sure?

>>5860618
Yes, now it's becoming easier. One of the best definitions of progress I can think of, is things that used to be the privilege of the wealthy are now considered universal rights.

Modern leftists obsession with privilege as a bad thing is misguided. Privilege shouldn't be taken, but rather more widely distributed.

>>5860624
Pretty darn.

>>5860628

you'd have to be pretty asspained to go to those extents of ironic doublespeak sarcasm sass

but i guess one shouldn't put that passed the population of /lit/

>>5860624
>>5860628
So I need to go back to /pol/ for simply stating that white anglo-saxon is not the default definition of "American" and in fact, other people lived there before them?

But of course, white people will never use the term "European-American" because that's just stupid and facetious.

>>5860638
> asspained

Yep, only a /pol/tard would spout such homophobic insults.

>>5860639

yes you do lol

you can put all that glitter on your pile of steaming shit of an opinion but it's still a pile of steaming mayonnaise right wing randian cock sucking shit

>>5860638
/pol/ is eternally more butthurt than you can imagine, especially now
>>5860642
He would not be using the suffix "tard" if he was genuine, he just is avoiding saying fag (poorly).

>>5860664
White people don't like it when their double standard gets demolished.

I'm sorry if this made you cry, bigot.

>>5860232
i read it.

>>5860664

yeah, i think i can see it now:

>>5860642

you can tell he's said some homophobic shit here and been told to fuck off to /pol/ for it

and now he's so cosmically rear wrecked that he's jumping at every chance to tell people to fuck off to /pol/

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

>>5860063
When non-white people adopt white traditions and practices, it's labelled as "multiculturalism." When white people adopt non-white traditions and practices it's labelled as "cultural appropriation."

>>5860693
European Americans sure are strange. If I point out their hypocrisy and privilege while they pretend to advocate and care about my and my people's grievances they tell me I'm a racist and should go to pol.

This is some weird anglo shit I'll never understand.

>>5860710
>they tell me I'm a racist and should go to pol.

damn the victim complex is real with this one. that's literally what you came into this thread doing

how can you be so delusional

>>5860710
>anglo
wow, language

>>5860710
fuck off nigger

>>5860714
You think you're a bigger victim than me?

>>5860722

>i am the biggest victim
>i have been told to fuck off to /pol/ for saying homophobic and racist things
>why is every1 being so mean

>>5860710

> they pretend to advocate and care about my and my people's grievances

Should we actually care that your your race is inherently inferior?

The only reason we "pretend" is so that we don't have to fucking hear about it.

Now quit your whining, nigger.

>>5860608
>empathy
>the ability to understand the perspective of another person

doesn't mean you necessarily have to agree with it

step it up

its mildly funny to imagine a non-religious person wearing some kind of edgy t shirt with a cross on it getting mad about "sacred" bits of other cultures/religions getting used in a different context

>>5860725
> Keep Crying, B---- N-----

Well, well, /pol/ reveals its true colours.

Reported.

>>5860757

damn nigga i can smell your bitch ass milquetoast tears from here

>>5860764
You ignorant, hateful bigot! Shame on you!

>>5860757
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mVwTuDjx5uo

>>5860779
You need to read this.

http://pitchfork.com/thepitch/515-sun-kil-moon-yells-at-cloud-the-problem-with-male-pattern-violence/

Another thread full of garbage-level discussion and shitflinging, courtesy of /pol/. Thanks, boys!

>>5860802
>you need to read this
>pitchfork
I doubt it

>>5860157

i dunno, when minority voices say that it's theft, then i think maybe we should listen to them and believe them. why is it that only white voices are believed and given the benefit of the doubt when they make claims?

>>5860922
>i dunno, when minority voices say that it's theft, then i think maybe we should listen to them and believe them.
I don't believe them for reasons I have explained.

>>5860802


Literally the dumbest thing I have ever read.

>>5860291

you do not seriously think that racial issues are the result of the intellectual white class attacking other members of its in group? how batshit retarded are you? do you not see minorities speaking out against racism every fucking day?

>>5860802
funnier than anything i've ever read labeled as comedy

>>5860930

you don't believe them because they're not white. plain and simple. only the white viewpoint is the "objective" viewpoint.

that is literally the mindset of racism.

>>5860922
> why is it that only white voices are believed and given the benefit of the doubt when they make claims?
> " i think maybe we should listen to them and believe them" - a white voice

Nice.

And for the record, it's "European-American."

>>5860946

this is logically retarded. saying that we should seriously consider the authority of minority voices is not the same as usurping that authority from them.

>>5860945
>you don't believe them because they're not white.
I explained my points of view, you on the other hand are just using an ad hominem, and also you're operating under the assumption that I belong to the social group that better fits your poor arguments. I'm afraid I stand unconvinced.

>>5860968

your "explanation" is basically just a restatement of my accusation against you. look at your language, for example. you say that
>The very fact that people use something from another culture like native american hats to look hip at concert is a sign that that culture is now part of ours

yet

>not because we own it

something can't be a possession "ours" unless it's owned. and who is the "us" in "ours," anyway? white culture. you claim against culture ownership but have no problem with claiming that your own culture is in your possession, and that it can be added or subtracted to. you allow for yourself what you seek to deny to others.

further, you assume the viewpoint that white culture is the default objective status. it is not. it is a culture like any other.

again, this is deeply internalized racism. my point still stands.

>>5860988

to add: white american culture isn't "colorless" or neutral. while it is the default status quo, it is not a neutral one. it is a culture all its own. racists have a very hard time making this distinction, and this is why they believe every white perspective is an objective one, and every non-white perspective is subjective.

>>5860988
Not that anon, but my family is my family even though I don't own it.

>>5860988
>hurrrrrr you used ours
It's a limit of the language. Do I have to pretend that you really need this explained?
>white culture.
If you think western culture is just "white" you're a dumbass.
>and that it can be added or subtracted to.
Never claimed any of this. A culture can become different, as new concepts can become part of it or stop being part of it.
>you allow for yourself what you seek to deny to others.
Only if you're hell bent on trying to misconstrue what I said.
>further, you assume the viewpoint that white culture is the default objective status.
Now you're starting to see things.

>>5860522
>there will never be a glorious day when the proud maoist third world can round up and throw every single white liberal off a bridge

Only in dreams...

Cultural appropriation is bullshit when it takes the form of commoditized fashion.

For people opposed to this idea, imagine the things you like being taken on in superficial ways by yuppies.

Your music, maybe it's metal. Does hipster metal bands make you angry? The whole nerd culture thing, do you consider yourself a real nerd and get upset when cool kids pretend to be nerds?

It's not only a cultural exchange. It's a type of cultural exchange that is one-sided. It creates a degrading stereotype of one of the cultures, while only providing entertainment to the appropriating culture. Part of this is the way in which the appropriating culture maintains distance from the culture it takes from. In my examples, "yeah I like metal but I'm not like one of those goth losers", "I'm a nerd but not like one of those socially-awkward misogynist ones". "I believe there's value in the teachings of X religion, but I don't agree with their actual beliefs where they contradict with my western, liberal beliefs".

They aren't engaging with the actual culture, they are just taking symbols of things they find entertaining and are able to do so because the culture they're in is more powerful. Therefore, this is a relation where the more powerful culture only becomes more powerful through this relation, and the less-powerful culture loses the things which make it unique and becomes represented in the eye of wider society by the inaccurate stereotypes perpetuated by those who are doing the appropriation.

SJWs have argued that even something as benign as trying to learn another language is cultural appropriation.

If it ever meant anything, it's now nothing more than a synonym for segregation.

>>5860988
Cultural ownership does not imply exclusivity. There are cultural artifacts owned by many cultures.

>>5861037

it's not a limit in language. you said exactly what you meant. the culture you internalized is allowed to appropriate and be added to, the ones you do not associate with cannot be added or subtracted to and therefore have no right to claim theft.

"it makes it different" is just a euphemism. what it is is addition and subtraction. again, something you only will allow your favored group.

>>5861058

now you're asking them to empathize. good luck. not being able to empathize with other races and cultures is expressly the mechanism that allows this sort of thing to go on. expect breathless and nonsensical assertions that "it's not the same."

of course, it's not the same for reasons that they only allow themselves and their culture to have.

>>5861058
the things which make up my "culture" have actual value, so that would mean nothing to me

i don't really care either way about cultural appropriation though

>>5861058
>Your music, maybe it's metal. Does hipster metal bands make you angry? The whole nerd culture thing, do you consider yourself a real nerd and get upset when cool kids pretend to be nerds?
This kind of shit didn't even make me angry when I was 17 and had special snowflake syndrome like every other teen.

It's wrong.

>>5861057
Does your dislike truly stem from the cultural appropriation aspect or commoditized fashion itself?

>>5861058
>They aren't engaging with the actual culture, they are just taking symbols of things they find entertaining and are able to do so because the culture they're in is more powerful. Therefore, this is a relation where the more powerful culture only becomes more powerful through this relation, and the less-powerful culture loses the things which make it unique and becomes represented in the eye of wider society by the inaccurate stereotypes perpetuated by those who are doing the appropriation.
It's funny, because these "special snowflake" type arguments are not taken seriously in any other sort of discourse.

>>5861080

oh look, apparently whites culture is responsible for clothes and science. huh.

are the people who make these things at all educated?

>>5861070
>it's not a limit in language
Yes it is: >>5861030
Either way, what I said is perfectly clear, unless you want to purposefully misconstrue it.
Now here's the thing: if you admit this then we have nothing to say to each other, because your whole argument is based on this. If you don't admit this you have problems with language I can't possibly hope to solve for you (English isn't even my first language).
In both cases arguing with you is pointless.

>>5861090

it is pointless, you're right. because you don't even understand the very things you are saying. it's impossible to have a discussion with someone so ignorant.

>>5861089
Well, it's true that most africans didn't wear clothes and shoes until they were colonized, as for the science part I fail to see how you infer that from the comic.

>>5861089
That image is dumb as hell, but yes, whites are responsible for western fashion, the english language, and many scientific achievements. Non-westerners appropriate aspects of western culture daily and (rightly) nobody cares.

>>5861097
>no u no u no u no u
we'll, we weren't off to a good start with you anyways.

>>5861098
of course africans wore fucking clothes you idiot. africans invented the very concept of "covering the body form the elements."

as for science? let's see
>cell phone tech
>bullets (?)
>vaccines
>eyeglasses

while it is true that white individuals had a hand in inventing those things, "white culture" is not responsible for it.

want to know what white culture is responsible for? segregation. the tea party.

>>5860149
Lol. Jews are white. You're not getting that one past anybody

>>5861108

arguing with you would be like trying to explain to fish what water is. your racism is so internalized and second nature that it will take an entire intervention to get you to see it for what it is. i'm not that patient.

It's the first step toward segregation.

>>5861115
>want to know what white culture is responsible for? segregation. the tea party.

>>5861115
>segregation.
Something that every powerful group ever in the history of mankind has done in some aspect. It's a product of power differences, not "white culture"
>the tea party.
A minority group that most of white culture rejects.

>>5861122
"You are wrong because you are a racist" is not an argument.

>>5861115
>of course africans wore fucking clothes you idiot.
Intertwined banana leaves worn around the waist do not constitute "clothes" (and even less "shoes".

>as for science? let's see
>cell phone tech
>bullets (?)
>vaccines
>eyeglasses
All of which were invented by europeans.

>"white culture" is not responsible for it.
I actually kind of agree. I believe white genes played a bigger part than white culure in european achievements.

>want to know what white culture is responsible for? segregation. the tea party.
On the left side of the bell curve, I see...

>>5860063
>What does /lit/ think of the concept of cultural appropriation?
Terrible when white people do it. Normal people shouldn't pretend to be all exotic and shit.

The black guy wearing a suit is just acting normal instead of ethnic. And why shouldn't he? Halloween is only one day a year.

>>5861137
>white genes
lel

>>5861137
/lit/ isn't "/pol/ backup"

>>5861150
Jewt killed /pol/ because he's a cluck, blame him.

>>5861136

i'm talking about american segregation, which was a specific thing in history. don't be willful obtuse.

your being a racist isn't a argument, it's a statement of fact.

>>5861137

this entire post is the definition of tedious

>>5861115
>while it is true that white individuals had a hand in inventing those things, "white culture" is not responsible for it.

Actually, modern scientific thinking is very much a product of "white culture". I guess you can say it's no longer an exclusive feature of white culture, however.

>>5861122
Then stop replying.

>>5861158
>this entire post is the definition of tedious
Logic and reason can be tedious to a simpleton

>>5861150
>/lit/ isn't "/pol/ backup"

Yes it is, you filthy kike.

>>5861158
>your being a racist isn't a argument, it's a statement of fact.
By what objective standard?

>this entire post is the definition of tedious
Not an argument.

Please take your feelings back to tumblr.

>>5861158
>american segregation

A large element of which was trying to keep black culture away from white kids so they wouldn't be influenced by it.

The stated reasoning has changed but the effect is still the same: Pissed-off white people mad that little white kids are interested in cultures other than their own. Only now they mistakenly believe they're "liberal."

>>5860074
this
I came to the thread to write exactly this.
Late capitalism commodifies culture.
Adorno said this a while ago

>>5860522
we live in times where everything is commodified. It's hilarious and essentially culturalism/nationalism if you oppose this trend out of "muh culture" reasons.

>>5861176
>A large element of which was trying to keep black culture away from white kids so they wouldn't be influenced by it.

gross simplification. the biggest and most important motivator behind racial segregation in america was the fear of miscegenation. everything else was window dressing.

>>5861173
>By what objective standard?
he thinks you're me.

>>5861195

came here to say this: as usual when it comes down to it, whites were/are afraid of black biology. every other reason is made up under the sun but that's the truth behind it all.

>>5861207
And thank god they were. Otherwise, America would have a large multiracial underclass like Brazil.

>>5861195
Segregating cultures segregates societies. It just doesn't seem to bother SJWs that they use the same tactics to much the same effect as the old segregationists because they have in their mind better intentions.

Then again as they like to say "intent is not magic."

>>5861213

more racists tipping their hand to their racism in blatant, non-coded language.

it's funny how the longer you sustain a conversation about these issues, the artifice behind most of the racists' reasoning eventually falls away (by necessity).

>>5861226
>it's funny how the longer you sustain a conversation about these issues, the artifice behind most of the racists' reasoning eventually falls away (by necessity).
Because the /pol/ shitposters see the thread and flood in

>>5861226
>more racists tipping their hand to their racism in blatant, non-coded language.
Are you implying that I'm a racist.

Because it's pretty obvious that I'm one. Although I prefer the term "race realist".

>it's funny how the longer you sustain a conversation about these issues, the artifice behind most of the racists' reasoning eventually falls away (by necessity).
The opposite is usually the case. Which is why the opposition usually resorts to name calling (the r-word) to silence their opposition.

Fortunately, since we're on an anonymous forum, I don't fear professing my views about racial inequality.

I'm brazilian, and race relations here are VERY weird

Now, while I'm seeing ths "cultural appropriation" debate coming up in Brazil often, I have some questions:
Brazilian punk came mostly from the working class, and a lot of those bands were mixed race. Is it cultural appropriation from anglo culture?
I know it's retarded, but when I was 14-15, I liked to tell people I was a mod, am I appropriating british working class culture?
I know rich black kids who are into rap, is it appropriation because they're rich?
I know poor white kids who are into rap, are they appropriating, despite the fact that they're in the social demographics?
People in the north grow up somewhat close to a lot of native american groups, if they adopt some of their customs, are they appropriating?
Do I have any right on respecting the IRA, for example?
Where is the line drawn between "cultural appropriation" and "respect and admiration to a different culture"?

>>5861218

then you misunderstand the criticisms against cultural appropriation. in fact, you, like many others in this thread, don't seem to understand what "cultural appropriation" even means. pro-tip it is NOT the same thing as acculturation, and it is NOT the same thing as assimilation.

what it is is when a dominant culture takes the cultural signifiers from an oppressed culture and reuses them without its original context. sometimes this means commodification, but not always. but in every case it is a relationship of subordination.

Cultural appropriation aka non-issue distraction.

Keep the people fighting each other.

>>5861253
>Are you implying that I'm a racist.
>Because it's pretty obvious that I'm one. Although I prefer the term "race realist".
he thinks he's been talking to one person

>>5861253
>(the r-word)

i love it. the one way to really hurt a white person's feels is to call them racist. racial epithets don't work on them--honkey, cracker, whitey, none of them make a dent. but to call a white person racist is to cause them the same psychological stress that a black person feels when they're called a "nigger"

but as usual, the function of the racist mind is so ignorant it could never appreciate this irony.

>>5861272
>implying I'm white
Assuming I'm white is kind of racist, you know

>>5861254
>Where is the line drawn between "cultural appropriation" and "respect and admiration to a different culture"?
Literally "it is ok except when white people do it or when non-white people don't like it"

>>5861275

that's not what racism means. prejudice, yes, but not racist.

you would do well to understand the difference.

>>5861272
damn at this point either you're doing a bunch of levels of irony or you're just straight up dumb

>>5861259
White people playing blues music. Relationship of subordination taking cultural signifiers (da blues) from an oppressed culture (plantation negroes) without its original context (white people do not know the blues nor have them in their possession).

EUROPEAN-AMERICAN!

>>5861279
Yeah and I bet a bunch of niggers beating up a white kid because he's white is "prejudice" too

>>5861259
>>then you misunderstand the criticisms against cultural appropriation.

Or I recognize a bait and switch when I see one. Or more accurately, a motte and bailey.

>>5861276

the difference is here:

>>5861259

>>5861282

you're right, it was cultural appropriation. there are still people alive today that are furious that they never got any credit and never saw a dime after guys like buddy holly and jerry lee lewis took their sound, style, and vernacular and made a living off of it

>>5861279
structural inequality =/= racial discrimination

labeling of both of these concepts as "racism" and using them interchangeably is irresponsible

>>5861296

there is no bait and switch, just your stubborn unwillingness to actual understand a topic.

>>5861300

sorry but you're wrong. when the structural inequality is based on racial disparity then it is what it is. sorry if you'd like to keep race out of it, but reality doesn't work that way.

>>5861259

In every case it's completely natural product of the way societies interact. The history of humankind is the history of power relations -- a culture is is a "relationship of subordination" to begin with, and for one culture to subordinate another is not some great evil, it's totally amoral event that follows the existence of cultures as surely as night day. The grand boogeyman of oppression which you are conjuring is literally the condition in which all human cultures exist and have flourished and faded away. You are deluded if you think it is subject to your criticism.

>>5861299
buddy holly did a lot more than "steal" someone else's sound pal

not that you've listened to him or his precursors in the first place

Israelis eating hummus and falafel and couscous.

Surely this is cultural appropriation.

>>5861299
Van Gogh died in obscurity and today his paintings sell for millions.

Unless someone literally steals material and claims it as their own (as Led Zeppelin did on several occasions), then it's not legally actionable. Nobody owns a genre.

>>5861308

there are probably better, closer-to-the-source examples but his name is what came to mind. either way, he's part of that legacy of misappropriation.

>>5861307

ladies and gentleman: the pathology of the racist mind.

>>5861308

you're talking to the tumblr crowd now.

can't expect anything from them beyond parroting buzzwords and screeching "racism" when anyone points out they're full of shit.

it's really not worth your time. religious fanatics are not easily dissuaded of their beliefs.

>>5861307
>it always happens therefore it's ok

it always happens and it's wrong. using the awfulness of history as an excuse for more awfulness is what i find immoral.

>>5861299
But should white people in year 2015 play the blues?

Can white people make rap music?

>>5860106
Tumblr hates cultural appropriation though

>>5861326

people always talk about tumblr. i don't even use tumblr and i barely understand what it is. so stfu about it.

and your wish that people stop talking about race is never going to come true, sorry.

>>5861320
>>5861326
>>5861328
>>5861336
It's easier to samefag when you don't type in a characteristic way : for example failing to capitalize at the beginning of sentences.

I'm gonna assume that this pathetic attempt at samefagging is due to the fact that you're a low IQ nigger.

>>5861306
>there is no bait and switch

The entirety of online SJW crusades against cultural appropriation is one in which, when pressed, they'll state reasonable desires which their critics can agree with ("I think it's offensive to wear headdresses and make whooping sounds"), then when the coast is clear, it's time to go out and attempt to expand the boundaries ("Don't wear dreadlocks. Don't learn Japanese. Don't cook jollof rice.").

>>5861328
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BSom6OC5_fs

Is this immoral? Come on, that's fucking ridiculous.

>>5861341

you keep talking about "social justice warriors" as a type. i don't associate with that type and i do not speak for them. nor do they me.

>>5861339

the second one is not me. and i've made no effort to obfuscate who i am. why do you think i have?

>>5861320
>>5861328

Again, my point is that this isn't a moral issue, no matter how much you feel like condemning my moral character instead of confronting that point. People are not magical free agents who choose to do Right Thing or Wrong Thing like characters in a videogame, they are subject to world-historical forces that dominate their wills. Yes, even you are subject to such forces. The fact that history is full of awfulness should teach you this, that people's eyes are so to speak bigger than their stomachs, that people can always be counted on to hypothesize a better world yet somehow no better world ever arrives and we're all still in the shit, lynching the same people just in different ways: should teach you that moral reproach is a blind alley. Leash your ressentiments.

No minority group actually finds this offensive. At worse, it's stupid and uncultured like "lol this dumb white person trying to do X."

The only type of person/culture that would get upset about white people wearing non-white fashion accessories are white people.

It's ironic how they end up advocating for segregation. Such bigots.

>>5861307
at least this is to the point and not misinterpreting the argument.

in the consumer capitalist society, which is the dominant culture here, the only value of any cultural product is how much money it can make or how it can be used to manipulate people into doing things which make money for someone else. if you're ok with this kind of world, that's probably the end of the argument here. all cultures will be assimilated in the form of entertainment, including your own. you may be higher up the ladder and have enough excess resources to fund your preferred form of culture without having to sell it out, but the day will come.

for all I know, this kind of world may be inevitable.

>>5861336
>people always talk about tumblr. i don't even use tumblr and i barely understand what it is. so stfu about it.

well you should. you'd fit right in.

>and your wish that people stop talking about race is never going to come true, sorry.

Didn't mention race or wishing for people to stop talking about it.

That was my first post in this thread in case you confused me for someone else. But more likely you're so anxious to denounce heretics that you reflexively attribute the imagined opinions/beliefs of your bogeymen to anyone with whom you disagree regardless of what they actually have said.

>>5861356

yours is the an ideology of contentment. only someone who is not and will never be the victim of those injustices can sit there and say what you say. this is why you're school of thought is untrustworthy.

and civilization has excised many gross and persistent systemic injustices over the millennia. that you're OK with this one in particular is telling.

Isn't the whole point of feminism/LGBTQ politics that signifiers can and should be played with?

Why are we supposed to go backwards into adhering to rigid social and cultural norms?

This isn't the 1950s.

>>5861316
I have one of those.
Actually I wore it while posting in here before.
lel

>>5861347
If I were to take you at your word, the best I could say is that you're one of their useful idiots, naively defending a narrower and less controversial definition of cultural appropriation than the one that is actually being employed on the internet and elsewhere.

The term is just so poisoned that it's beyond saving.

>>5861371

you're talking about acculturation, acceptance, and tolerance, which is entirely different from misappropriation. read up on it.

>>5861318
>as Led Zeppelin did on several occasions
/lit/, the only thing worse than you talking about books is you talking about music. pls stop.

>>5861370
how is it an injustice

was it an injustice when black people from detroit stole the sound of white euro-disco and synth-pop to make techno

>>5861377

like i said, they don't speak for me. there are ill-informed liberals everywhere who are correct in spirit, yet don't understand the details. they are hypocrites. and yes they exist.

>>5860922
>why is it that only white voices are believed and given the benefit of the doubt when they make claims?
That doesn't happen

>>5861347
It doesn't matter. It's internalized social justice. I'm sorry.

>>5861380
Whose to say that people at Coachella aren't part of that? Why assume that a white girl wearing some indian clothing isn't fully aware of the symbolism?

Because she's blonde she must be ignorant?

>>5861080
I hate when white people celebrate the day of the dead and find that they often disrespect the meaning of the day.

>>5861115
>want to know what white culture is responsible for?
The computer you're using? The prosperous democracy you live in?

>>5860063
If a Caucasian wears a war bonnet he may look silly, but who is going to stop him? The cultural police?
Is it offensive? If you take it with offense. You can try to stop him, but unless you go to ridiculous lengths with the state, you would look even sillier trying to take it off of him.
It's simply something unavoidable in the digital and globalist age.

>>5861396
Either way, she's using the culture as an accessory. It's almost worse if she actually understands what she's doing.

>>5861390
You're outnumbered. The term you're defending has been taken up as a banner and its definition broadly expanded. As this thread should evidence nobody who hears the term "cultural appropriation" is going to think of your narrow, "pure" usage. They're going to think of how they actually see it employed as a bludgeon against any kind of cross-cultural influence.

So in effect, they are speaking for you. And the only thing you can do to change that is come up with some new terminology.

>>5861396

if they are "aware of the symbolism" then that would mean they aren't just ignorantly being racist, that would mean they are consciously being racist.

>>5861058
>"I believe there's value in the teachings of X religion, but I don't agree with their actual beliefs where they contradict with my western, liberal beliefs".

That's how cultural exchange works dumbass. People take what they like about other cultures and ignore the parts that aren't compatible until they end up with a new culture with the best aspects of both.

Or do you think things like genital mutilation and child marriage is an important part of some cultural heritage that needs to be preserved?

>>5861413
No she's not. She's using an accessory as an accessory.

>>5861416
>confirmation bias

you should read serious literature and serious publications and not just blogs. your perception is...not accurate.

>>5861370

Ah yeah, I forgot that white people have +10 to saves against systemic oppression, sorry. But seriously, you are completely deluded. Approaching the "problem" of oppression from the point of view of "racism and appropriation are bad and everyone must agree on this!" is Sisyphean nonsense that enables you to evade responsibility for what you have construed as a morally indefensible position in which you participate, indeed enables you to climb up onto a high horse and comfortably ignore your actual participation in it entirely by representing it as a moral act in a causative void. Read a book, specifically this one. Then read Genealogy of Morals.

>>5861413
this is the crazy part, and i know i won't get a real answer here but what is wrong with that

when did "culture" become something sacred that's not allowed to be trivialized

>>5861408
White people were decades behind the rest of the world before they pillaged it for spices. Just because white people set the world back and eventually invented computers doesn't make white people justified or better.

>>5861430

lol, I like that you can even construe the renaissance as mean, unfriendly, violent act for which western culture should collectively have been taken aside by The Great Nanny and given an understanding, but nonviolent talking-to. Kill yourself.

>>5861429
It's basically the same as a serial killer (white people) wearing the skin of their victims (everyone else). You can't just burn down the world for spices and then "celebrate" the culture of the people you've terrorized.

>>5861429
It's not, it's just some vague word that you can give whatever meaning you need for your arguments to work. It has an important sound, so people will think it's something deep without you having to actually explain shit. I don't like ethnocentrism, for example, and I realize how it's dangerous, but criticizing any culture being taboo is perhaps even more perilous.

>>5861430
>White people were decades behind the rest of the world before they pillaged it for spices.

Poe's Law has kicked in.

>>5861430
>mongols annihilate central asia and china, causing western europe to get ahead
>it's the fault of white people
Kek

>>5861427

you don't believe white privilege exists? then your argument is unsound. period. you are ignoring actual evidence and there is no excuse for that other than ideological.

i don't participate in cultural appropriation and i do not defend it. so yes, i do have the moral high ground.

>>5861429

when did you believe culture was ever, ever a trivial thing? you're just making shit up now.

>>5861430
>White people were decades behind the rest of the world before they pillaged it for spices.
That explains how they so easily conquered the world. Because their technology was so far behind. Makes perfect sense.

>>5860063
>>5860074
>>5861187

Gotta love it how a Jew wrote a theory about cultural commodification and nowadays minorities are telling whites to stop culturally appropriating things.


/pol/ is always right.

>>5861422
Is there a more trite defense than "you should go read books that will explain why you're wrong"?

>>5861452
>trying to blame the mongols
Typical honky blaming the victim.

>>5861452

beautiful. europeans people are solely 100% responsible for all of their advancements, yet none of their failures.

sounds so familiar. hmm. if only they extended the same courtesy to minorities.

>>5861466

no, i meant that you're reading apparently a very very select group of leftist thought (which is in itself probably not even internally consistent). there is a world of serious fucking scholarship out there that apparently you want to ignore because it's inconvenient or something.

>>5861455
>you don't believe white privilege exists
Holy shit you literally can't read

>>5860362

>>5861450
White people were amazed and confounded by Aztec agriculture, far far behind the middle east mathematically, maybe on par with eastern philosophy, by the time they came up with a decent democracy they were basically just taking half of it from native Americans. Please, tell me how a race that had to be taught how to bathe by colored people is really anything besides a total joke.

>>5861477
>Ah yeah, I forgot that white people have +10 to saves against systemic oppression

then i take it you weren't trying to be sarcastic here?

>>5861470
Not 100%, something like 95%. Not even white btw.

Look, it's an undeniable fact that Europe has dominated intellectual achievements for the past millenia, to the point that western civilization has pretty much become the world civilization.

>>5861483
I'm not the same person.

>>5861456
>guns
>only technology that matters

Typical white American perspective

>>5861478
>/reddit/
Go home

>>5861488

western civilization was made in the image of europe, so why would any other culture dominate it? it is intrinsically european. there is nothing divine about that. of course all of its advancements are via european means you idiot.

>why is chinese civilization so chinese?

>>5861491
>guns
>only technology involved in traversing the globe and setting up permanent societies
And I'm not American ya shmuck

>>5861479
The fact that you are trying to hold up the Aztecs, a stone age culture that had not invented the wheel, as more technologically advanced than the European race is pretty revealing.
You'll say absolutely anything, won't you, you slippery fellow? I've met people like you - in street markets.

>>5861489

so why are you replying in his stead? or were you making a non sequitur comment.

>>5861475
If you just want to terminate the conversation, you could just say so. You don't have to pull a load of faulty assumptions out of your ass to justify yourself.

Have a nice day.

>>5861497
What part of the phrase "western civilization has pretty much become the world civilization." do you not understand, you stupid nigger?

Today's chinese civilization is not chinese, but western in its origins.

>>5861502
>stop being problematic by saying white people are better but also this is why they are worse

>>5861511

i'm not the one insisting on talking about some scapegoat idea of "SJW" and insisting that it has more influence. i'm politely pointing out that you are "apparently" not even looking at other leaders of leftist thought which are AT LARGE much more influential and relevant.

>>5861430
Y'know, prior to today's rapid technological development being mere "decades" behind or in front of another civilization wouldn't mean all that much.

>>5861506
>so why are you replying in his stead?
I'm replying for myself, not anyone else. Are you stupid? this is a public discussion. I wanted to make an observation and the observation is that you can barely read.

>>5861524

ah, see how they change the rules of engagement when they're in-group is under scrutiny.

>>5861517
>>5861502
>>5861479
whoops wrong quote

>>5861455

See? You react with hostility to the implication that you take part in this phenomenon of power-relations among humans that you have identified as bad and immoral. Too bad your attitudes and opinions don't have any influence on the phenomenon to which you apply them. Instead, you are defending the very concept of social hegemony from which your conception of evil oppressors and pitiable subordinates proceeds by positing that there is a moral high ground to be attained. "If everyone was like me, then everything would be better": that positive ideology is what you and the racists have got in common, and that's why I don't take you or your worldview (which you appropriated, by the way, from other people) seriously. It is fantasy that you concoct to make yourself feel big.

>>5861529

so it was a non sequitur comment. got it.

next.

>>5861531
What rules?

I'm just saying you or whoever wrote that should have perhaps used "centuries" if you wanted to make a meaningful statement.

Why are you confusing criticism of word choice with criticism of ideas? I'm helping you make your argument more effective, ya tit.

>>5861501
Teotihuacan was looked on as ingenius and many explorers rave about it in their writings. If your educated is so limited that you can't even respect the Aztec civilization then I don't see this conversation going anywhere.

>>5861531
>they're

This should be a bannable offense on a literature board.

>>5861533

you still don't understand the difference between misappropriation and assimilation. you have manufactured an idea that i oppose integration. i do not. i am not defending social hegemony. i am against "punching down" and theft. integration is a different thing entirely. YOU are the one who doesn't understand that.

>>5861546

srry 4 typing 2 fast mom

>>5861533
>typing this much for a person who can't read

>>5861553
>i am against "punching down"

Is it punching down to, for example, mock the Westboro Baptist Church? They're certainly a very small, widely disliked, and marginal group, so is it wrong to make fun of their abhorrent behavior and beliefs?

my god, when are sjws going to just go away, they're the absolute WORST

>>5861564

it isn't because their group (white, christian) dominates the american power structure. they may be en extremis with the details, but their philosophy is the same as the status quo.

>>5861542
Those crackers were just exoticising the world that was foreign to them

>>5861569
Someday the hugbox will reach critical mass and collapse in on itself like a black hol--I mean like a singularity of color.

>>5861553

You're splitting hairs. Your fantasy is bankrupt attempt to compensate for your own lack of power by positing a scale of moral righteousness that turns power relation on its head. This is why I recommended that you read Genealogy of Morals. There isn't any hard-and-fast difference between the good things you posit and the bad, it is all your subjective valuation and I find that valuation to be masturbatory nonsense. I understand this all too well, because I felt the same way when I was 14.

>>5861577
Then why did they call the decidedly not-savage American natives "savages" then?

>>5861586
Cause they hucking spears at each other and didn't know how to read or write and basically didn't know shit about anything except bird spirits in the sky

>>5861583

again, yours is the ideology of contentment. you've no need to alter the power structure because it (likely) benefits your in-group. i don't believe this moral-neutrality line for a second. if anything it is secondary (and ex-post facto) to your need to preserve the comfortable power structure.

>>5861586

Because they wanted to kill them and live on their land, and the Indians wanted to kill the whites and live on their land, and there's nothing wrong with either of those two stances or any of the acts that proceed from them. That's how it goes, you win some you lose some, sometimes you genocide others and sometimes it's you that eats the genocide. "Savage" just means a wild man who lives in the woods, it's from the French for "wild" which derives from Latin root "silva", "forest". Negative connotation and implications of barbarism and cruelty that it has accreted over the years are consequence of its application to American Indians, who behaved barbarously and cruelly -- as humans are wont to do.

Modern identity politics is so lacking in class consciousness it's sickening.

>>5861623

class is baked in, actually. the white interests we speak of are the middle-class-and-up persuasion.

>>5861601
As long as I didn't pay taxes to fund the shit tier school that taught you this, I'm not offended

>>5861623
It's lacking in any consciousness that isn't false

>>5861632
All right, let's list the intellectual achievements of native americans :
>

>>5860522

Bindis are indeed worn around the world. they are a meaningless fashion accessory. Being butthurt about them is something that only an upwardly mobile brown person with only first world problems would do. It's like complaining about white people liking foreign films about poor people....the argument is supported but it's fucking petty and ridiculous

>>5861626
>actually. the white interests we speak of are the middle-class-and-up persuasion.

Because white people who aren't of any value to SJWs are invisible. They only care about white people who can give them something.

>>5861656

i was just pointing out that the most eggregious cultural appropriators are of the middle class variety (and higher). lower class whites are often in the same socio-economic situation as black americans (who are as a whole mostly in the lower class) and therefore it makes sense that they integrate with that culture.

see the difference between assimilation and appropriation now? it's directional.

>>5861623
This.

>>5861623
it's because poor whites are an easy and fun target when you can lump them in with rich whites (whom they have almost nothing in common with)

systematic poverty actually takes effort to solve, and after occupy wall street fizzled out you don't get twitter moral points for talking about it so why bother

>>5861699
*systemic

>>5861668
then how is it a race issue at all, outside of the fact that minorities are underrepresented in higher classes?

>>5861699
>fizzled out

you mean "dismantled"

>>5861732
"imploded" is probably the best choice

>>5861715

it's both. race and class are synergistic.

>>5861752
but if we're talking about the causal reasons for problems, isn't it incorrect to conflate the two? no doubt race had an impact on how the class structure was formed, but casting class issues as race issues seems to get in the way of actually addressing the underlying problem

>>5861495
I think stephen fry makes a good point regardless

white libs always love to pretend that their own race (white americans) is the only race in the history of mankind that has ever diminished a foreign culture.

They like to pretend that or they genuinely believe that, at this point I cant tell.

>>5860922
>i dunno, when minority voices say that it's theft, then i think maybe we should listen to them and believe them.
Firstly, it's not theft. The original is left completely intact, while theft implies it's taken away. No one is stealing culture, and the claim that they are doesn't even hold up to the most basic level of scrutiny.

There are those people who say cultural appropriation "devalues" culture, but the idea that sharing a culture with thousands is not millions of people doesn't devalue it but if someone from outside the culture adopts some of the ideas does strikes me as ridiculous. The value of culture is personal, it's not like gold which is dependent on scarcity.

Second, saying that we should believe a minority because they're a minority is as stupid as believing a majority because they're a majority. All claims should be subject to critical examination, not arbitrarily given a pass.