/lit/ - Literature

>>5842683
For any sane person, yes. That doesn't mean it stops there, however.

>>5842690
Where would it go?

>>5842683
Why is Jesus sad, he gets to hang out in the desert and his dad is god

>>5842708
but wat if dad dosnt reel

>>5842695
Relative/personal values.

>>5842695
hellenismos

>>5842683
Any secular philosophy that isn't Nihilism or Absurdism necessarily holds unfounded beliefs and is just as baseless as any faith-based religion, only the faith is going into some sort of inane abstract objective quality somewhere, rather than something supernatural.

>>5842778

Like Marxism?

>>5842683
Individualism maybe.
Atheism in my understanding also is a sign of a very large personal scale that encircles the whole world. Personally I don't even understand some of the processes taking place in and with my own body, quite disgusting things sometimes. Which machine is complex enough to control its own function, or even understand it?

>>5842778
Atheism is typically adopted as much in faith as religion, resentment providing very sturdy foundations. Truly, there is naught but uncertainty, not absurdity. And I'm using the word 'atheism' as regards its *real* meaning.

everything is a slippery slope to nihilism. most people just don't live that long.

>>5842871

>resentment providing very sturdy foundations

I was an atheist before I began to harbor resentments towards the Abrahamic cults. Its just that there is a compelling lack of evidence in their ridiculous and absurd claims that I honestly can't believe how many gullible folks it has fooled.

>>5842708
He hasn't had a bite to eat in 40 days, and Satan is coming near.

>>5842879
Good thing we have you to give us all the answers to the big questions in life.

>>5842695
Absurdism, existentialism

>>5842879
You'd be surprised the forces at play in facilitating belief, anon. The subconscious can be a torturous bastard.

And I'm not saying there aren't halfway sensible atheist, either, btw.

>>5842683
The only people I accept as true atheists are hedonists. They're the only people who have thought it through and live by their convictions.

Assuming, as a fool does, that there is no God.

>>5842884

I associate church-goers with those crazy delusional people out on street corners with signs warning pedestrians about the world ending tomorrow.

It may sound hyperbolic, but I see little difference between the two other than perhaps one is insane and the other is simply ignorant or too emotionally invested in their faith to ever let go regardless of contradicting evidence.

You'd laugh your ass off if I told you with a sincere face that there was a magical Garden Gnome colony in the center of the Earth that feeds off of unicorn meat and the souls of orphans. They are both equally ludicrous and until evidence is provided, they should both be equally dismissed.

Its not about "knowing everything", its about applying logic and not taking everything at face value like a dupe. I really do not even think it is stupidity that Christianity exists, I believe it is emotion and willful ignorance that keeps it alive today.

>>5842911
Sure is fedora in here

>>5842879
I have recently started reading The Democracy of Objects by Bryant and I'd like to share the following:

the things each of us sees as "truth" are incidentally the things each of us individually is capable of understanding.

Science and scientific progress are interpretations of what we have seen and experienced in some way up to now and religion is "old" science, giving us explanations for the world around us.

Following this, nihilism is, to me, a space in philosophy waiting to be filled with substantial knowledge, a waiting room of sorts.

>>5842911
>emotion
>willful ignorance

That's not how you spell 'faith'

>>5842911
It's outcome dependent.

If the world in fact ends soon, they were giving you proper warning, and you rejected it.

As there is no contradicting evidence contained within the bible, your argument is with fallible people, not an infallible God.

The reason I would not laugh at your delusional example is that you currently hold a worldview that is even less believable than the one you propose as absurd, and I am not laughing at you now.

>>5842896
The only people I accept as true christians are that guy on a rock in OP's picture. He's the only person who lived up to his teachings.

>>5842913
That's not nihilism, but Scientism. That one day, Science will provide all of the answers to all of the big questions.

Religion is a good thing in its ways. It keeps people in touch with the right sort of uncertainty - uncertainty with regard to others.

>>5842924
Correct.

And because He imputes that righteousness to all who believe in Him, His righteousness is there for the asking.

>>5842683
Only if you choose to. The slope's not that slippery and you can walk off to the side if you want.

The trick is realizing that a lack of externally-generated "meaning" or "value" does not make the universe actually meaning-less or humans value-less.

>>5842929
Religion, from religio, is a system of bondage. I reject all religions in favor of being adopted by God into God's family, given a place in His home, and being a brother to Christ Jesus.

>>5842925
Personally, I don't think that science is anything but a human tool to solve problems we see.

I have failed at communicating there; I expect science to prop up nihilism by way of "yup, this is it, nihilism is scientifically sound".

>>5842931
By definition, it indeed does. Calling meaningless things meaningful, and calling valueless things valuable, does not make them so.

>>5842939
It cannot, as "nothing" could not be empirically proven to be true.

I see "science" as the collective wisdom of mankind, and I know that God sees the collective wisdom of mankind as foolishness.

>>5842941
No? Meaning doesn't come from any external source. We INVENTED "meaning", after all. Since it is our experience that things have meaning, and things did not have meaning before we got here, therefore we are the actual source of meaning.

That's like thinking that the self must be an "illusion" just because it's made out of meat and ions.

>>5842912

>uh oh I have nothing useful to say because my imaginary friend and I just got BTFO

>>5842921

>As there is no contradicting evidence contained within the bible, your argument is with fallible people, not an infallible God.

Every single word of god has been transcribed to humans to give to other humans, thus there has been no definite contact with this "God" character other than these fallible humans.

There is literally not a single theistic argument that has substance.

To be a theist is to play mind-gymnastics and grasping for straws as to continue desperately to cling to their faith for as long as they can until their rationality overcomes them.

Man thinks it can WILL god into existence, this is why religion is still around today, but as the god of gaps shrinks and shrinks in influence thanks to better education and technological advancement we will come out of this intellectual dark age better than before.

I don't intend to sound condescending. I am not saying you are stupid, I am just saying your beliefs are stupid.

>>5842951
If we invented meaning, then it is a meaningless invention of ours that will die with us in heat death.

>>5842952
God is literally inside of hundreds of millions of people today in the form of His Holy Spirit, giving us life, eternal life. He talks to billions of people every moment of every day. The evidence of His handiwork is all about you, and the impressive scope of His creation is above you to be viewed with awe.

You will never be forced to believe something you do not want to believe, not by you, not by me, and not by God.

>>5842952
good post, very on-topic for a thread discussing the potential relationship between atheism and nihilism, keep up the good work

>>5842981
kek

He's a Scientismist and doesn't even know it.

>>5842944
Cool.

Let me see if I can put my own insanity into words in some way.

We are a species of problem-solvers and we are really good at solving problems, because we help each other and by that, lighten the load the individual has to carry around.
We are a species which makes shit up as we go along, even inventing something we call our personality which, in turn, makes interacting with each other easier; of course, to me, our personalities are a lie, since there isn't one per individual, but many, depending on whom or what we are interacting with.

Now, our history up to this point, is part of the universe's history, a huge spiralling fractal of existence, generating more and more details with every single turn and branch of said fractal.
In a sense, as above, so below and we are trying to understand what is going on "around" us, misunderstanding that this around doesn't exist.
We are not observers of the universe, we are the universe, because there is no fundamental difference between inside and outside, we just assume that there is.

In my mind, we are the universe trying to make sense of itself without understanding that.
There is no aim, no final goal, no sense, no final achievement anywhere, our consciousness isn't real at all, our thoughts and imaginations are just part of this fractal that the universe is; we're just problem-solvers which happen to exist by chance.

Because, ultimately, existence itself is thoughtless and that which we consider to be thoughts and that which we consider to be scientific understanding of the universe is a pointless exercise in solving a problem which isn't there: we just imagine that there is one.
There is no solution. No final goal.

Were the universe conscious, it would eternally navel-gaze. Because that's what we do.

Insane enough, /lit/?

>>5843003
That's pretty insane, in fairness. I'd be careful with it, might lead to a whole load of nutty 'greater good'-type thinking.

>>5842981

Yeah, I forgot this was about Nihilism and got side-tracked.

Guess my point is that religion is an artificial psychological defense against potential nihilism by men too feeble-minded to adapt to a world where meaning is not as concrete or even important.

>>5843021
It's just the largest thing fitting into my head, itself an exercise in futility.
This personal thing I just wrote is meaningless.

It's sort of trying to stare at the universe from outside, too, nothing anyone should be interested in because this kind of knowledge is useless to any and every one, including myself.

That's why I sheepishly call it insanity; not because I want anyone to agree with me, but because it has no allure, at all, to anyone.

Like I have said, it is just the largest thing I manage to fit into my head.

>>5843003
As stated previously, this is the belief set of Scientism. That Science will confirm that we are random accidents turning ourselves into gods. That we are not responsible to anyone for our own creation, and that we will eventually master all that there is, or ever will be.

It's a lie from the pit of hell, with no evidence to support it whatsoever, but because you believed the person who gave you the idea, you think it's true.

I listen to different people.

>>5843042
Cool beans!
Thanks for interacting with me today!

I am getting shitfaced now, sweetie.

I like to think of us as a becoming, personally. Our consciousness is something marvelously free - I don't think people have a proper appreciation of this.

>>5843031
I'm curious. Do you live your day-to-day life by that belief? That nothing you do matters? That if you pay your rent, or don't pay your rent, or kill someone, or don't kill someone, or hit someone with your car, or don't hit someone with your car, it's all the same?

Or do you actually do everything that society tells you to do, and then bitch about it?

>>5843062
Well, she is *here*, after all.

>>5843052
Self-medicating to relieve stress? Because surely you know alcohol is a depressant, and not a good way to medicate depression.

>>5843068
And even then, what I post here, I consider meaningful. And I post in a language that can be understood by the reader, using grammar and syntax and all sorts of meaningful tools with which to communicate.

I would think that a true nihilist would be more like the crazy homeless person outside my business, yelling that the CIA implanted trackers in his teeth.

>>5843062

I believe it matters, but I don't believe that there is some invisible hand ready to punish those who commit wrong-doings or reward good deeds.

A saint and a sinner both end up in the same place in death, so it takes a greater will to be a decent person without the fear of being reprimanded with hellfire and brimstone.

Nihilism is not objectively false, but it is not necessary either.

>>5843084
And if saints and sinners do not end up in the same place after death?

>>5843085

>And if saints and sinners do not end up in the same place after death?

But they do.

>>5843134
Is the hypothetical so earth shattering to you that you cannot even consider it?

That the bodies you see laying dead in the ground, those very same people live on in the afterlife, as we are eternal beings?

>implying religion isn't just a sophisticated form of psychosis constructed to deal with the weak willed inability to deal with the lack of inherent value in existence

>>5842690
Sanity is overrated

>>5843220
That's already been dealt with, in this very thread. Perhaps your reading comprehension is not as sound as you imagine it to be.

>>5843220

It's amazing what mental gymnastics ducks can perform under the tuition of satan.

>>5842879
Why would you be upset that someone stupid wants to believe in a loving imaginary friend that will punish them for doing bad things? Sounds like a free, good parent figure for adults.

>>5842683
No, people can be atheists for any reason. They don't necessarily have to be intelligent critical thinkers who question unevidenced dogma, hence the amount of secular humanists you see amongst them.

>>5842912
I bet half of us were like that faggot in middle school when we realized our parents were lying to us and couldn't take it maturely.

>>5843250
The difference between atheists and secular humanists escapes me.

>>5843246
Sounds better when you properly remove the word "imaginary" from your post.

Sounds awesome then.

>>5843256
Atheism: there is no God. Secular humanism: there is no God, also
>muh moralfaggotry

>>5842683
Nihilism is just a phase for teenage boys.

>>5843362

>>5843419
He is either a troll or a close-minded religious person or a /pol/lack who thinks himself to be a close-minded religious person.

>>5843524
I'm an open minded deist who thinks that nihilism is a phase for teenage boys or cunts who can't face their problems.

>>5842837
Marxism is fundamentally materialistic, the only assumption there is that the material world exists, which from a skeptical standpoint is a gargantuan lead of faith, but one that we make all the time over the course of our lives

>>5843538
So, you think the idea that nothing has inherent value because of the lack of a metaphysical entity giving this value is so absurd that only deluded or immature people can have it, even if no logical or empirist evidence seems to lead to such a metaphysical entitiy?

>>5843565
Yes, obviously.
It is a position abandoned by anyone who had had any work.
If you have or have had hardships and don't rely on your mothers basment/money/care you see that it is just for edgy cunts.

>>5843577
I don't find that so obvious, and if you need to have a rough phase in your life to see it I don't think "obvious" is the right term.

And just in case that second part had any implication, I am studying and working in a town 4 hours away from my parents.

What do you think makes it so obvious?
Yes, I know, I am falling for a troll right now, I will stop responding if his next posts are retarded.

>>5843538
so basically you're saying that nihilist are idiotic, undereducated and immature, and that if they would just do some reading and stop wallowing in self=pity they would see the error of their ways?

well im sorry to burst your bubble of delusion but i have read all kinds of books on all kinds of positions and nihilism is the only one that i find convincing, furthermore i would say it is not in spite of but because of nihilism that i am totally happy and satisfied with the life i live

>>5843601
Because every nihilist is an edgy cunt.

>>5843610
Well, that's just an insult, not an argument.

>>5843524
I did not mean to imply that nihilism is a phase leading to god. It's just something that you grow out of.

>>5842683
Definitely not. Most atheists are also humanists, and humanists are the opposite of nihilistic.

>>5843003

>>5843608
>I lie a lot on the internet.

>>5843644
You can't be this retarded and live long enough to post on the internet.

People who think human beings are the highest form of life in the universe are by definition atheists.

>>5843644
>humanists are the opposite of nihilistic
humanist nihilism is perfectly possible

>>5843676
>thinking people on /lit/ aren't well read

>>5843608
>because of nihilism that i am totally happy and satisfied with the life i live

This was the lie bud. You can read all the books you want to, but this is a lie. And now you know that I know it is a lie.

>>5843683
Yeah, but they are not nihilists. What is the retardation of that anon?

>>5843696
Not exactly, since humanism implies the (any) value of human life, which nihilism denies.

>>5842683
No, christianity is.

>>5843763
replied

>>5843745
Obviously in believing that human beings are the highest form of life in the universe.

Was that not plain?

>>5843756
nihilism denies any inherent or objective value, it does not stop you from choosing to attach value to human life

>>5843725
of course i am not totally satisfied with the way i live, i have things i strive for and things that i wish i was, but i am satisfied with my progress towards those things. Nihilism has helped, even allowed, me both to define what those things are and to move towards them

>>5843779
But he said:
most atheists = humanists

You are now saying
believing that humans are the highest beings in the universe = atheist
as in
humanist = atheist

So what is wrong with anything he said? He did not say that he himself is a humanist, and that is irrelevant to the argument anyway.

>>5843793
>nihilism denies any inherent or objective value, it does not stop you from choosing to attach value to human life
Well, yes it does, that's when you step out of nihilism. Have you not read Nietzsche?

>>5843793
Your understanding of things is obviously evolving, and I hope for your sake they evolve rapidly.

>>5843793
I'm pretty sure it wasn't nihilism that allowed you to define your goals in life.

>>5842962
>that will die with us in heat death
Yes.
>then it is meaningless
No. What part of this are you not getting?

No. Atheism is one position on one issue, it doesn't make any claims on meaning.

>>5843841
The part where you think that meaning that you apply to things has some sort of inherent and eternal truth to it, as though you were God.

>>5843853
If there is no God, life is random and meaningless. There is no really sound and robust atheistic case for anything but random meaninglessness. We're here for no reason, and we're gonna die, and be dust, and the universe will collapse.

That's a piss poor worldview that does nothing short term, long term, or into eternity.

>>5843861
Where are you getting the eternal from? I just said it was something we generate. Are we eternal? (Hint: no.)

why is /lit/ so afraid of nihilism

>>5843868
>if there is no God
>life is random and meaningless

THAT's a bit of a logical leap. Why do you think that a God is required for life to be ordered or meaningful?

>>5843872
Well, shouldn't value have some kind of consistency? Otherwise what is the point of the value?

>>5843868
>If there is no God, life is random and meaningless.
This is incorrect, and atheism doesn't claim that there is no god.

>>5843884
Because it is a pretty shitty albeit plausible worldview.

>>5843886
Meaning has to have a source, and that source is mostly god or something transcendental.

>>5843892
Are you still trying?

>someone will actually reply to this

>>5843884
Because it's a common philosophical trap.

The purpose of science is to attempt to determine the rules of the physical universe. The purpose of philosophy is to work with OUR universe, the one we created on top of the physical one, made out of things like "meaning" and "identity" and "reasons" and "history." We experience non-nihilistic things like meaning, ethics, and purpose; therefore, the purpose of philosophy is to create a system of human thought which fits these things in to the real world.

A philosophy which abandons these things is both seductive - after all, they cannot be derived a priori from raw physics, and are inherently dependent on humanity - and a total and complete abandonment of the point of philosophy (and depressing to boot). Embracing nihilism is thus both as dangerously attractive and as complete a failure as a scientist throwing up his hands and declaring his results to be the work of God. (Although in the opposite direction - God is seductive from the human standpoint but physically dubious.)

>>5843872
Yes.

You are an eternal being, at this moment, completely unaware of your true nature and potential.

ain't nothing wrong with active nihilism, plebs

>>5843886
It's not a leap at all. If we were made by God to fellowship with Him, as the bible indicates, then we have meaning and purpose in being loved and accepted by our God.

And failing that, we have eternal torment.

The choices we make in this lifetime, that determine whether or not we are participating with our Creator, and whether or not we will live with God forever, are important and meaningful.

When you reject God, have no clue how the universe came to be, have no clue how life came to be, have no clue how human life is different from animal life, have no clue about the value of consciousness, or its origins, and do not know that you are an eternal being, nothing your delusional mind makes up matters.

It will die in the universal incinerator, devoid of any meaning of purpose whatsoever.

>>5843868
It doesn't matter if its a shitty worldview, its reality.

You move on. Rejecting the transcendent is the first step in actually living in the world. People who are more concerned with the ideal than the real will never see their ideals become reality.

>>5843889
Er, subsititution: You just said "meaning" instead of "value." I'm not sure these are synonymous.

And also, I agree that meaning and value MUST have some kind of consistency. I simply disagree that the required amount of consistency is "has a single Correct form which has existed for all time and will exist for all time." That seems like overkill.

I think that the meaning that humans create, for humans, is real *enough*. That it is less real than gravity and hydrogen does not invalidate this.

>>5843955
Nope. It's just your shitty worldview of reality that really misses the mark, and doesn't help you out at all.

>>5843959
Worldviews aren't meant to help you, if the conclusions they come to are detrimental its irrelevant, as long as they're rooted in reality.

>>5843968
I'm prepared to disagree with this from a meta-ethical standpoint.

>>5843950

>When you reject God, have no clue how the universe came to be, have no clue how life came to be, have no clue how human life is different from animal life, have no clue about the value of consciousness, or its origins, and do not know that you are an eternal being, nothing your delusional mind makes up matters.

I disagree with all of this.

>It will die in the universal incinerator, devoid of any meaning of purpose whatsoever.

And this.

>>5843803
>Have you not read Nietzsche?
yes, though i cant say i have a complete understanding of his ideas, my understanding was that nihilism was the lack of inherent value, and while you might create your own values, you were still a nihilist

>>5843804
thanks

>>5843806
nihilism didnt specifically point out the goals to me, but is was a basis of the framework upon which i chose those goals

>>5843984
No, nihilism is the mouse trap that you need to escape. Nihilism is a mindset.

>>5843980
Point-by-point:
>you have no clue about how the universe came to be

Obviously, I disagree strongly here; however, this being a question of faith colliding with my own understanding, I will not attempt to convince you otherwise. That never works and you probably wouldn't be all that happy if I did.

>Have no clue how life came to be

See above, but centupled.

>Have now clue about how human life is different from animal life

We're working on that. Betcha we'll have a much better idea in sixty-seventy years.

>Have no clue about the value of consciousness

At last, something philosophical rather than purely factual! I disagree that the soul is necessary for consciousness and life to be precious.

>It's origins

Question of faith, blahdy blah.

>And do not know you are an eternal being

Again, question of faith, not gonna argue, et cetera.

>It will die in the universal incinerator, devoid of any meaning or purpose whatsoever

Yeah, but that's a few billion years off, and frankly I'm prepared to settle for that.

>>5843968
Your worldview is not rooted in reality.

Is that clear enough?

>>5843980
Do you imagine that your rejection of reality means anything to anyone but yourself?

>>5844005
Only to your last point, the lifetime of a human being is only 120 years, maximum, most people living 70 years, 80 if they're strong.

You have far less time than you think to wrestle with these issues.

>>5844017
My understanding of reality disagrees with you on fundamental points.

Unfortunately, they are at such fundamental points that there is no method of argument I could muster that could feasibly shift your position on them, and probably none you could use to shift mine; at the relevant levels we cease to be speaking the same philosophical language.

>>5844022
I disagree that I'm rejecting reality.

>>5844032
Oh, sorry. I assumed by "universal incinerator" you were talking about the heat death of the universe; someone mentioned that earlier. No, I do not expect to live a few billion years.

If you're talking about "You will eventually die, pretty soon in absolute terms, and that's going to be awful and pointless", that's a totally different thing whatsoever.

>>5843950
your entire argument rests on the existence of the god detailed in the bible, and even then it's the god you interpret the bible to explain.

>When you reject God you know nothing
well, 400 years ago we invented this thing called the scientific method, and it has allowed us to discover a good portion of the things you listed

>nothing your delusional mind makes up matters
it matters to me if i value it, i dont mind if it doesnt matter to anyone else, although a lot of it does

>It will die
as will everything else, i have no problem with this

>devoid of any meaning of purpose whatsoever
meaning and purpose are not qualities that an object or idea can inherently posses, like size or mass in the case of physical objects, or logical consistency in the case of ideas. meaning and purpose are things we chose to give things, the bible does not give you meaning, you give the bible meaning.

>>5844033
Neither of our understandings of reality impact on reality.

I think only one of us realizes that.

>>5844043
By "universal incinerator", I mean Hell. The Lake of Fire. The place this universe will be tossed into, and replaced by a new universe completely.

And you have even less time than you think.

In fact, you have only today. You were not promised tomorrow.

>>5844109
Yes, that is correct. The foundation for my views is based on God as He revealed Himself to people over many thousands of years, and on the Word of God, the bible.

I don't know if you can grasp this, but there is no scientific evidence to support the scientific method. In fact, the opposite is true. All of the answers found by science have been refuted by the next generation of scientists, or the next.

You can possess all of these things, these deep desires of your heart, for Love, and Acceptance, and Meaning, and Purpose. You just cannot have them the way you're going about your life.

You are a walking dead man, spiritually speaking, and it will take God Himself to convince you of that reality.

(As He does for everyone else.)

>Is atheism necessarily a slippery slope into nihilism?
No, religion is. Anyone embracing religion who wasn't a complete moron would immediately see that the odds of their having been born into the "correct" faith and sect, added to the odds of them dying in a proper state of grace to go to their heaven, are astronomical. Even if they were (idiotically) sure they were going to heaven, it turns this life into a mostly meaningless mandatory class you have to pass so you can get to the good stuff, rather than the proper focus of our hearts and minds. It focuses you on your own personal salvation and the supposed afterlife, rather than having a realistic perspective on this planet and our relationship to it. Monotheism and religion in general contribute to the "fuck this planet, I'm leaving soon" attitude that is destroying our ecosystems. A sensible atheist knows that they have a strictly limited time to do anything: whether it's personally gratifying or altruistic. They are more likely to hold the planet in proper reverence or at least respect, because they don't have some Sky-Father's "wrath" and "love" to worry about. Only a deranged lunatic would care about somebody's "soul" or "salvation" more than their current dire straits, but billions of religious people do so. Worse, if they think they have transgressed to an irredeemable point (remembering that this fictitious lunatic sadist judges you for your thoughts as well as your deeds) and are damned, they lose all hope, as if the world, love, beauty, art, nature, and hope were somehow nullified because they had lost sight of some fluffy afterlife.

>>5844133
Sheeeeit I didn't even know I was promised this afternoon

>>5844155
There are very few "religions" that a person must be born into; even Judaism has converts.

This planet is doomed. Sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but if you listen closely, you can hear it groan in pain.

>>5844170
The vast majority or religious people are the same denomination as their parents, hence, "born into." An idea as stupid as religion has to be indoctrinated before the age of reason to reliably work, though there are exceptions. If they choose it as an adult, regardless of criteria, it makes no difference to anything.
Of course the planet is eventually doomed: nothing eternal or unchanging is worth a damn. That makes no difference at all either. Only an insane ego demands eternity.

>>5844170
>This planet is doomed. Sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but if you listen closely, you can hear it groan in pain.
Nah, at best your world view is dying, that's it.

>>5844145
>Yes, that is correct. The foundation for my views is based on God as He revealed Himself to people over many thousands of years, and on the Word of God, the bible.
so it should come as no surprise to you that to me your views sound ridiculous, as we basically live in different universes

>there is no scientific evidence to support the scientific method
indeed, the statment that the scientific method can lead us to an objective view of the universe is itself a metaphysical statement. however this is no grounds upon which to reject science.

>All of the answers found by science have been refuted by the next generation of scientists, or the next.
all this means is that we are coming closer to the truth, newton had no idea about quantum particles, so his science does not attempt to explain them, and was refuted by those who discovered them, this in no way refutes science.

>You can possess all of these things, these deep desires of your heart, for Love, and Acceptance, and Meaning, and Purpose. You just cannot have them the way you're going about your life.
i feel like i have them, or more specifically have constructed them for myself, how is that any different from having them?

>You are a walking dead man, spiritually speaking, and it will take God Himself to convince you of that reality.
what does this even mean? that my soul is dead? if that is the case than it appears that i never needed it and am better off without it

The universe will go on without us. It gave birth to us, permitted us to stay for a blink of an eye, and will take us back eventually. We are all lucky to understand that we are part of an unending world, understand that our lives are as insignificant as can be imagined compared to the scale of that world, and eventually be able to embrace its vastness in death. The ultimate goal of life is to fully understand that we are weak, as close to nothing as can be, and part of something that is infinite in size and age, and to accept that the price and reward of being born is to become part of the universe that birthed us.

>>5844193
Facts say differenty, religion is on the rise, especially in China that will in 10 years be the biggest christian country in the world.
It isn't dyinf, it is shifting.

>>5844224
And that means the world is doomed?

Well, yeah, it is, it is doomed to eventually "die" the heat death, but what does that have to do with christianity?

>>5844224
well, its rising in china, but 'religion' as we understand it never existed in china
moreover in areas like europe and north america religion is indeed dying

>>5844230
It exists there now like we know it.
No one is denying that it is dying in the West.
At least it is now, hard to tell what the future will bring.

I don't see how nihilism can't be found in religion.
>everything is a test, you will never die, all you can do is hope for the best and hope those you love receive the same

I would not find it hard to take on the viewpoint that it was all for nothing or that our lives meanings were futile and useless in the face of such a dreadful existence. Played like a puppet on a string by a greater power who demands your obedience and praise. How could you not fall into nihilism being a Christian, you're the equivalent of a lab rat and even then you're not contributing to anything other than your own survival or destruction.

What does it matter if everyone is judged to heaven or hell? No lessons are learned (Well lessons are learned but there is nothing to apply them to, you simply get confirmed or denied your life then plopped into an eternal purgatory one way or the other), nothing you do really has a great effect on growing as a species or a person, the universe is destroyed accomplishing nothing in the process and that's the end of it. Where could one find meaning in an existence like that outside of their own imperative need to survive?

>>5844191
You dismiss a billion people or more who choose their own religion offhand without merit.

I mean doomed, as in it will not be here 2,000 years from now.

>>5844193
The planet is dying. This is not a religious belief. The actual planet you are actually living on is dying.

>>5844244
Well, you did not really get what God in Christianity is. He is not just some authority figure that is kinda a dick for not letting you do what you want, he is the very basis of existence, and also love. God is love and values are absolute. That would be some pretty comfortable thoughts.

>>5844252
Well, define "dying". Because even if we apply common definitions of life (which I usually do not) I don't see this planet as a living being.

>>5844262
>conform your mind to his happiness

So you're not only chasing the need to survive against the ultimate destruction or salvation, you're also chasing the happy feelings that accompanies obedience. Sounds similar to drug addicts chasing the dragon of ecstasy.

It's beyond lab rat adding an emotional perspective, it's self imposed Stockholm syndrome as a coping mechanism. Even more nihilistic than before.

>>5844209
That is correct. I do not expect the world to understand the things of God, without having God explain it to them. All I can do is steer you towards Him. He's the one you must deal with, eventually.

The notion that science is closing in on the truth is false. The truth is not empirically discerned, but spiritually discerned. The form of religion being propagated by pop science is still not the truth.

By saying you are spiritually dead, I am saying that you are a descendant of a long line of people back to Adam and Eve, who lost the Breath of Life when they fell from grace.

That when Adam and Eve sinned and rebelled against God, the Holy Spirit of God left them. The instant they sinned, they died.

They physically lived for many centuries following that spiritual death, but that day, they died. And all of their offspring were born spiritually dead, including you and I.

It is the regaining of that Holy Spirit of God, that Breath of Life, that is what I mean when I say "be born again in the Spirit" from the bible; a born again, new creation in Christ Jesus.

That if you consent to be saved, and transformed into a new creation, and become born again, you will be granted the very Spirit that your ancestors lost.

That Spirit made them eternally alive.

>>5844262
I mean it is already broken, and already falling apart, and that process will continue until God burns it all with fire.

And then creates a new heaven, and a new earth, where we can live with God without all of the consequences of sin, including pain, and sorrow, and death.

Jesus stands before all people, with life, and good, and heaven in one hand, and death, and evil, and hell in the other.

And you get to choose which one you want.

It is not a trick question.

>>5844277
It is not Stockholm syndrome if you are in love with existence itself.

You seem to think that christians see God as a foreign influence, when he is the complete opposite.

>>5844290
>I mean it is already broken, and already falling apart.
How so? Earth seems pretty stable.

No, but I've heard that you're a slippery slope into your mom's vagina. Watch me pop it.

>>5844298
The Beginning of Sorrows will change your mind. All of the things mentioned in there, things like earthquakes in divers places, and pestilence, and floods, will increase in number and severity much like a woman's labor pains.

The world was not always as it is now. You're just used to the broken world, and don't realize it's getting worse.

>>5844282
>That is correct. I do not expect the world to understand the things of God, without having God explain it to them. All I can do is steer you towards Him. He's the one you must deal with, eventually.
i have this fantasy in my head that when we all die we will all go to heaven and god will be there, and he will say to us 'i specifically created this universe so that there would be zero evidence of my existence, and have never once in any way intervened in any events that took place in the universe. however a bunch of you morons made up a bunch of stuff about how i existed and frankly this has very greatly pissed me off, so i have decided to sentence all of you to an eternity of damnation. other than that i invite all the rest of you who did not believe in my existence to the wildest and most radical awesome party ever.' obviously i don't believe this, but consider that it may well be the case.

>The truth is not empirically discerned, but spiritually discerned
this is pure lunacy, how does one spiritually discern the mass of an object, or the existence of the higgs boson. i get that you might have problems with the scientific method but i simply cannot take that statement seriously.

>stuff about adam and eve and shit
you do realize that stuff sounds like a load of complete baloni to me right? it is impossible to prove the existence of the soul, or of adam and eve, or of god. also why am i denied a soul because some jackoff sinned a couple thousand years ago, thats just unfair, whoever this god guy is he's a complete dickhead

>>5844324
Well, nah, earth quakes and stuff were always like that, paleontological evidence suggests that.

Also, what does this have to do with the planet dying? Is the planet a living thing influenced by floods or pestilence?

>>5844331
He would be well within His sovereignty to do so. He will not do so. He will not violate His covenant with us in such a manner, because of His nature, and for His glory we exist in a sanctified and glorified state.

The things you mention, that you measure with your senses, are not the truth. The truth is spiritually discerned, not the mass of a widget. Science is just fine for figuring out the mass of a widget; it's completely incapable of figuring out how to achieve eternal life. (But it is trying.)

I do know that these things sound like foolishness to you, because the bible says they will sound like foolishness to you.

The Way of the Cross is foolishness to the Greek (that's you, scientifically minded) and a stumbling block to the Jew, but to the saved, it is the power of God unto salvation.

Take it from Shakespeare. There's more to life than what is contained within your philosophies, my dear man.

>>5844346
Again, the increase in number, location, and severity will be the clue that you are in the Beginning of Sorrows, and headed for the Tribulation.

If you want to take man's word on what is going to happen in the future, instead of God's, that's on you.

>>5844362
I think I'll go with the one with the more reliable track record on this.

Plus, I have philosophical objections to absolute rulers in general, and I refuse to accept any ruler who demands worship, rules for life, throws dissidents into a torture chamber. Free speech and all.

>>5844374
That would be God and the bible, with a 100% inerrant track record.

Mankind's "science" when the bible was written was that the flat earth was held up on a plate by elephants supported by an infinite column of turtles.

>>5844374
God as a ruler would be actually truely absolute. Not "absolute" as in "don't object me or I get mad", but as in "the absolute fundament of the world"-absolute.

>>5844362
If God shows up and tells me, sure.

But your trolling is getting dull now, get more creative next time.

>>5842683
Yes

>>5844358
>He will not violate His covenant with us in such a manner
well, the god that i described never made such a covenant so really you cant be so sure my hypothesis is wrong

>The things you mention, that you measure with your senses, are not the truth. The truth is spiritually discerned, not the mass of a widget. Science is just fine for figuring out the mass of a widget; it's completely incapable of figuring out how to achieve eternal life. (But it is trying.)
uh, no, if a piece of copper has a mass of 10 kilograms than it has a mass of 10 kilograms and thats the truth, and it doesn't matter how high you are if you say otherwise you are just wrong. oh and by the way its a truth we discern with our senses.

anyway it seems that your definition of truth is completely different to mine, this debate is going to go on forever because fundamentally you are unwilling to question your religious beliefs. i will never be able to convince you otherwise, because from your point of view applying any kind of rational observation or criticism to your beliefs is sinning and is wrong, as it is doubting god. you are locked in an eternal circle, you beliefs are self confirming and immune to criticism. as such i dont see much point continuing this discussion, nothing will come of it. i operate generally on reason and logic and your arguments contain none of that and so will never convince me of the existence of a god, especially the one described in the bible (a book put together several hundred years after the death of Jesus, a person whose existence there is practically no historical record of). i will never convince you because you are fundamentally unwilling or even unable to listen to my arguments.

in conclusion let me say this, from your point of view god created me, everything i am, everything i was and everything i will be, meaning he created me as a person who will probably never believe in gods existence, meaning he created me knowing he would send me to hell. there is no grounds upon which you can describe a god such as this as all loving, as the bible states he is.

>>5844382
It will be too late, then. Which is why I am bothering to warn you, now.

>>5844438
I see no point in talking of imaginary gods. The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob made His mark on the world, and then manifested in the flesh as Jesus, Who also made His mark on the world.

And God made many covenants with mankind, the best of which is the currently open New Covenant offered to all who believe Jesus is Who He says He is, the living Son of God.

Your copper wire will never get you into heaven. You can play with it for your entire life, and find out everything there is to know about it, die, face God and the judgment, and be cast into hell.

I'm sorry you don't think God has the balls to throw rebellious angels and men into hell. I assure you, He does. See, for instance, the Flood.

>>5844464
You are not really convincing though.

>>5844127

there is no objectively discoverable reality bud.

Since Christianity is atheist for all but one God, Christianity is a slippery slope to atheism, and yes atheism is a slippery slope to nihilism.

>>5844474
Let's see. You have already rejected the witness of God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit.

You have rejected the evidence of the second heaven, space, with all of its awesome creations.

You have rejected the firmament and all of the evidence of His handiwork.

You have now also rejected my witness.

Do you see a pattern?

>>5844487
Evidence should be in scare quotes, and you know it.

>>5844496
The evidence, and the witnesses, speak for themselves.

If you're not afraid of God, you should be. It is a fearful thing to be in the hands of a living God.

Has no one got around to pointing out slippery slope is a logical fallacy yet? Suppose it isn't relevant in a religion thread.

>>5844496
Anon, stop, he is merely pretending.

>>5844487
Yeah, I see a pattern alright.

>>5844508
In this context it is not meant as a logical fallacy, but as a more general metaphor.

Also, this is not really a religion thread, quite the opposite actually, but you know how people are.

>>5844508

don't be like this, that's not what a fallacy means

>>5844509
I am pretending?

okay

I'm sure you have based that opinion on the same grounds that you have based all of your other opinions. And it is equally as valid.

>>5844538
Yepp.

I will stop responding now, btw, and I encourage that other anon to do the same.

>>5843212
not that guy

Well, one can consider it, but there's no reason to believe it. Any yearning for eternity is an inability to accept futility, which is the only thing existence could possibly be classified as.

>>5842683
im both so really i dont give two shits about how i got here. then again, if i really was a nihilist i would have killed myself. but ill admit im too pussy to do it now. then again, i wouldnt post this so im assuming i must care about something im doing right now

>>5843950

>Rampant Absolutism: The Post

Thank goodness we have you to provide all of the answers to us.

>>5844503
I do not choose to respect, let alone worship, any ruler who relies on fear to enforce respect.

>>5843220

>>5843003
hey we are the same, that's neat

>>5843950

Yeah, it's so much better to believe in a fairy tale.

>>5843803
Glad to see someone else mentioning Nietzsche. Only one though... :(

Still, let's stick together, fellow Ubermensch! "The time is right"!

>>5844145
>no scientific evidence to support the scientific method
>All of the answers have been refuted by the next generation

The whole point is a constantly evolving body of knowledge that is relative rather than fixed. Naturally there can be no objective foundation fixing the scientific method as valid; it can only be understood as a successful means of exploration *within* a system defined by certain limits, such as the fact that we exist.

>>5844716
Don't fuck around with your doctorate, anon, get that shit done.

>>5842966
>God talks to billions of people everyday
Oh, well I guess he didn't have time for today. He's very quiet you fuckwit

Not believing in God is certainly not a slippery slope into anything. It's the most basic premise for philosophical development.

I doubt the question you've typed and posted is the question you're really asking. You're asking whether materialism (or something else that implies atheism) can lead to moral nihilism.

>>5844471
>I see no point in talking of imaginary gods.
but you're doing that right now

>>5844438
>10 kilograms than it has a mass of 10 kilograms and thats the truth

Not in the sense that he meant it, I assume. Weight is just a human construct, like everything else. The only truth is pure reality which is beyond any form of comprehension or description.

>>5846388
>Not believing in God is certainly not a slippery slope into anything. It's the most basic premise for philosophical development.
>Not believing in God is certainly not a slippery slope into anything. It's the most basic premise for philosophical development.

>>5846453
if you want to get all skeptic about the universe than you must at least concede that there is no rational basis to believe in any god

>>5843610
"Nihilist" is a vague term usually used as an insult. No wonder mostly silly people call themselves nihilist. I'm sure people who call themselves niggers and faggots are annoying as fuck too.

>>5846480
If we were to be absolutely sceptical we couldn't accept scepticism either.

>>5842683
It's the emerging awareness of a problem.

From an interview in Playboy magazine, the great Stanley Kubrick offered perhaps the most insightful comment I've yet seen regarding man's search for meaning:

Question: If life is so purposeless, do you feel that it's worth living?

Answer: Yes, for those of us who manage somehow to cope with our mortality. The very meaninglessness of life forces man to create his own meaning. Children, of course, begin life with an untarnished sense of wonder, a capacity to experience total joy at something as simple as the greenness of a leaf; but as they grow older, the awareness of death and decay begins to impinge on their consciousness and subtly erode their joie de vivre, their idealism-and their assumption of immortality. As a child matures, he sees death and pain everywhere about him, and begins to lose faith in the ultimate goodness of man. But if he's reasonably strong - and lucky - he can emerge from this twilight of the soul into a rebirth of life's elan. Both because of and in spite of his awareness of the meaninglessness of life, he can forge a fresh sense of purpose and affirmation. He may not recapture the same pure sense of wonder he was born with, but he can shape something fare more enduring and sustaining. The most terrifying fact about the universe is not that it is hostile but that it is indifferent; but if we can come to terms with this indifference and accept the challenges of life within the boundaries of death - however mutable man may be able to make them - our existence as a species can have genuine meaning and fulfillment. However vast the darkness, we must supply our own light.

Human beings need fiction, we can't function without them. God dying was wasn't a move to some "Truth" but it did open the possibility of better myths which humans can live by.

I think if we can't find Truth can we at best find stories for ourselves that we would wwant to live with?

>>5846726
skepticism is a position, you cannot doubt its existence

>>5843931
that's a good point. But why is saying there is no inherent meaning a bad thing? We can experience these things by choosing to.

>>5844471
>he thinks the Flood actually happened
You do know it's a myth - and a borrowed one no less?

>>5843003
>Insane enough, /lit/?
The way you think this is some revolutionary new totally mind blowingly insane way of viewing things and that you are oh so enlightened by this just calls out for someone to yell out "but everyone has read that universe experiencing it self bullshit"

But no, its not insane enough. You gotta add some Terence Mckenna in to the mix

I always liked this painting.

Regardless of everything, this man succeeded in what he wanted to do.

>>5847249
Stick a big woolly fedora on that universe too to top it off.

>>5847279

You do realize that just about every ideal he had was completely skewed to fit a point of view that's almost the diametric opposite of what he probably believed, right?

Jesus was most likely a Jewish zealot who wanted the Roman empire to leave the Kingdom of Israel, I've always found it funny how he became the protagonist in the narrative of the exact empire he wanted to destroy

>>5847302
You know literally the same could be said of any historical figure, right?

>>5846858
There was a real global flood, and as you seem to be a fan of Gilgamesh, know that the man he sought out, Utnapishtim, is Noah, the Old Salty Man.

The Flood happened about 4,500 years ago. Ancient civilizations that sprang up from the Tower of Babel, Babylon, wrote down what happened in the Flood about 4,000 years ago.

About 3,500 years ago, God told Moses what happened, and Moses wrote it down in Genesis, along with everything else.

So, no, God did not steal the story of the Flood from the Sumerians/Babylonians/Chaldeans, He told Moses what really happened when it was time to start writing the bible.

>>5844675
Thank God we have the bible, the Word of God, to provide all the answers to us.

>>5845462
God never lacks for time. Ever. Nor is He ever busy, worried, in a hurry, or rushed.

>>5846745
That meaning is transitory and ultimately meaningless, and has already been discussed, in this thread. Appealing to the authority of a filmmaker is novel though.

>>5847302
You know Jesus just taught the Law of Moses, right?

>>5847317

Yes, because bats are birds and when people worship golden cows, you should commit genocide on them

>>5847339
Bats are "winged creatures" in the Hebrew, and when people worship calves made of gold, they are worshiping Ba'al, not YHWH.

And if people are irretrievably wicked, and God pronounces judgment on them, and that judgment is death, it is holy, just and righteous, as God is holy, just and righteous.

>>5847339
>birds
>being an actual thing
Come on now, a species' name is invented by humans to categorize animals, and the concept of a species as we know it is rather novel. Back then, basically everything that was a creature of the air was considered a bird, because biology had not defined the term bird yet.

>>5847345
If you skip ahead a couple of pages he mentions giving him firstborns and sacrifices

>>5847345

So whatever God says is moral, even if it's genocide of women and children?

>>5842966

>God is literally inside of hundreds of millions of people today

slut

>>5847350

Then how can the Bible provide all answers if it doesn't even know basic biology?

>>5847351
What do you care about what the God of the Jews told the Jews to do 3,500 years ago?

What is that to you?

>>5847374
Come on now, I am not that troll you are arguing with. But biological terms are not facts, they are merely tools we use.

>>5847353
Yes.

God is Good. The things of God are Good. Obeying God is Good.

God, being the Creator of all things, has rights you do not have, and can enforce them against your will.

>>5847394
If you are going to slander me, I would prefer you not back me up.

>>5847392
You know your God is literally the God of the Jews, right?

>>5847405
Yes. And had they accepted Him when He came to earth, I would never have been born.

And thus, could never have been adopted into God's family.

After the Jews rejected Jesus, Jesus made a New Covenant with all who believe in Him; that to any who believe on His name, He gave them the power to become the Sons of God.

I took the offer, and am now a new creation in Christ Jesus, and I recommend every single human being sees the offer for what it is, and takes it.

>>5847374
'Birds' is a mistranslation, it says literally 'winged creatures'. Google is really easy to use for little factoids like this, you know. Could help you out.

>>5847420
Yup. But people who do not want to believe, do not believe. And that is their right, as free will moral agents, to act within their own sovereignty. While they still can.

>>5847426

check out spooky mulder here

>>5847436
It's just what is. Right now, you're alive, and you can act. After you die, it's too late. After the Rapture, it might be too late.

And either event can happen at any time.

>>5842683
I really like this painting.

>>5847829

you can save it if you want

>>5843233
underrated post...!

>>5847436
lol

All philosophy leads to nihilism, its the final stage. The only thing you can turn to is subjective philosophies

>>5848434
aw shucks thanks mister

>>5842966
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_and_schizophrenia
A common report from those with schizophrenia is some type of a religious delusion - that is, they believe they are divine beings, God is talking to them, they are possessed by demons, etc

Gardner sure thinks so, at least in the absence of any external force to strengthen one's inherent drive to believe in something greater than one's self.

...or maybe Grendel was just fucking nuts