/lit/ - Literature

>>5822222

I stoically applaud your quints

It seems like a livable philosophy that certainly has something to offer but I'm not a fan of the pantheistic or deterministic stuff

>>5822222
checked

>>5822222
Impressive. Very nice.

It's just the Spirit getting stuck and not being able to progress to Christianity

Read the actual Stoic texts and not some douche's interpretation. I'm looking at you Tim Ferriss and Ryan Holiday.

It seems to be not about doing what you want to do, but doing what needs to be done. All tasks should be completed fully and rigorously.

>>5822287
Eh, get on back to /b/. We don't care about "gets" here.

>>5822301
Speak for yourself fagboy, lit is the only board I browse and I love gets

>>5822309
You're not a credit to the board.

>>5822301
ill ook u in tha gbbr m8

>>5822301
butthurt singles fag detected

>>5822314
Says you.

>>5822222

>muh virtuous life in accordance with nature

To really embrace this philosophy requires crossing a bridge you likely won't be able to, and that's the bridge of devotion. With religion this is easier, because you feel the swell of popularity around you given that many are undertaking the same journey; but Stoicism is a thing of the self, for it is not an organized religion and it has no cults.

Instead this is a personal decision that you make. But, in order to do so, and you might find it difficult, you have to really accept the metaphysics. His >>5822248 dislike of pantheism and determinism really make it impossible to follow this philosophy, because without the acceptance that our lives are nothing more than extensions of nature, that we ourselves are such extensions modes of the infinite substance , you really can't activate the ethics.

When you accept that your entire life is already contained and mapped out, only then can you realize that you cannot change this, and that the best approach to things is to live your life in accordance with nature: that when misfortune befalls you, it had to be that way, and couldn't possibly be different.

Until you REALLY BELIEVE this, you can never activate Stoic ethics.

>>5822575

I accept that existence is an eternal loop that endlessly repeats itself. Is that good enough?

>>5822642
no

>>5822222
Nice.

>>5822222
I think that the most important element is the trying. Never stop trying to be upright. Our failures keep us humble.

>>5822575
I had no idea that stoicism has a deterministic element. Would you point me to some examples?

>>5822222
It seems pretty neat but I lack the self-control to be a stoic. My beard game is pretty weak, too.

>>5822846
>not having a glorious beard

>>5822857
It's sucks so bad, man.I could have had god tier beard genetics like my father and the men on his side of the family, but instead I inherited the inability to grow anything beyond a weak goatee from my mother's side.

>>5822870
>tfw 23 and nice thick beard

>>5822832
read The Handbook

>>5822575
(OP here) I see, I've read Meditations and Letters from a Stoic and really enjoyed them. I understand that our lives are an extension of nature but I didn't really associate that with a Theistic vibe, despite being an Agnostic. I understood the determinism to an extent but I thought it was malleable to some extent (maybe wishful thinking). Thank you for your insight though.

(OP here) I see, I've read Meditations and Letters from a Stoic and really enjoyed them. I understood the determinism to an extent but I thought it was malleable to some extent (maybe wishful thinking). Thank you for your insight though. I need to get better at accepting the (perceived) antagonism that finds its way into my life.

>>5822871
What if you are 23 but look like 16?

bump with song that has a name relevant to stoicism

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VUUH5d9iNes

It's, ironically, depressing to live that way.

>muh virtues

deluded stoic faggots

>>5822832
More or less, everything that ever happens was already pre-determined in the mind of God when the world began

This is why, if things don't turn out the way you'd like, you shouldn't be upset about the outcome - you should be happy to have failed because that's the way it's meant to be, and in a Stoic universe "everything is for the best"

>>5822222
I don't understand how the determinism of this philosophy is reconcilable with responsibility and freedom. Can someone explain how, if everything that will ever happen is pre-determined, I shouldn't be apathetic and indifferent and refrain from acting? I'm really no seeing it

Stoicism is pleb tier self help based on flawed appeal to nature rhetoric.

If you want Hellenistic self help based on something better, check out Epicurus or Pyrrho.

>>5824422
It mostly comes down to the fact that the vast majority of anything is outside of your control, so stfu and stop crying about it when it doesn't go how you wanted.

Outside of your control is sometimes taken to mean predetermined.

philosophy moved past stoicism many centuries ago

Stoicism is for the hard, not weak ass bitch niggas like OP.

A 5minute youtube video is more than enough to explain what Stoicism is all about, the hardest part about soticism is the self-discipline it takes to follow its maxims.

Eat shit and sage.

>>5824415
Isn't that the same kind of shit Voltaire was parodying in Candide?

>if your life is shit just accept it

Stoicism is a shit-tier philosophy for losers

>>5825821
hahaha you're extremely misinformed friend

>>5824422
You will go from A to B. The difference is: getting pulled to B or embracing the way to B.
This latter is obviously the Stoic way. In balance with the world.

>>5825821
Could you be any more reductive?

>Realize that Seneca, Epictetus, Aurelius were right
>Realize that Socrates was right
>Realize that Aristotle was right
>Finally define what is Good
>Finally define what is Justice
>Finally define purpose in life
>Realize that Jesus was right
>Realize that the Bible is right [hist-gram method]
>Reconcile stoicism with Christianity

>First time not depressed in years
>First time not feeling ennui in years
>First time looking forward in years
>Cry tears of joy in a fuckin' coffee shop

I've deleted all the sad froge and unhappy feels macros from my hard drive. I won't need them any more. Ordered a fishbowl, scale, and a pair of binoculars. Called my folks and told them I loved them.

>>5826289
Tell me more about this, anon. I'm genuinely interested.

>>5826289
>tfw you know that feel

>>5826289
I'm happy and sad for you at the same time.

>>5826289
>>5826351
end game is empathy/cooperation?

>>5826289
>see people this retarded
>feel more confident in my intellectual predatory behaviors

People like you let psychopaths run the place

>>5826289
>Ordered a fishbowl, scale, and a pair of binoculars.
Is this some sort of deranged suicide meme?

>>5822222
The older I get the less of an Id driven little shit I am and the more I appreciate The Art of Living.

I feel like my brother resents me for being stoic.

I am a stoic and my brother looks up to me. At least I think I am. Pretty sure I inspired this thread.

>>5826697
I piss my brother off for not being all active and happy seeming all of the time. He expects me to be all crazy and uppity like he is. Instead, I think I come off as boring and lazy to most people. He doesn't like to be around me because he says I'm a downer. Stoicism is tough to practice around my family. They all just think I've become withdrawn, creepy, and weird.

>>5826701
Oh, that's not what I am then. I thought Stoicism was just having yourself under control. I fuck with my brother's head a lot :)

Honestly, anon, I think you're doing it wrong. Being driven by virtue doesn't mean being boring as fuck.

>>5826716
I think it's like not having yourself under control. I think its living in accord with your nature. I think it's about giving up control of yourself, or controlling yourself through giving up control. I have to reread Epictetus.

"I follow cheerfully; and, did I not,
Wicked and wretched, I must follow still
Whoever yields properly to Fate, is deemed
Wise among men, and knows the laws of heaven."
-Euripedes

Maybe it's just my fate to have my family be angry with me.

>>5826743

"I follow cheerfully; and, did I not,
Wicked and wretched, I must follow still
Whoever yields properly to Fate, is deemed
Wise among men, and knows the laws of heaven."
Euripides, Frag. 965

How do you interpret this?

>>5826780

23. If you ever happen to turn your attention to externals, so as to wish to please anyone, be assured that you have ruined your scheme of life. Be contented, then, in everything with being a philosopher; and, if you wish to be thought so likewise by anyone, appear so to yourself, and it will suffice you.

-Epictetus, The Enchiridion

>>5826780
Do what must be done.
>>5826789
No looking fancy.

Fair enough.

>>5826811
I don't even think it's about being fancy. There's nothing wrong with acting in accordance with your nature, whether it's wicked and wretched, or however pleases yourself. If you're fancy, or wretched, then that's just how you are.

"I must follow still" is like the obvious statement that you will yield to your Fate no matter what. I guess it just has to do with accepting your fate. I don't know. Do whatever you want I guess.

>>5826830
Mmm. I'm not so sure about that second bit. And I know it's not just about looking fancy, but rather being anything but a rock of philosophy, which contradicts your interpretation of the other part, I think.

>>5826845
Honestly I don't really know what the heck the philosophy is about, but I don't really think you can make a philosophy out of being anything at all. Be anything, but don't moan about it? What?

>>5826845
It has nothing to do with being a rock. Doesn't "appear so to yourself" just mean to be how you want to be, rather than pleasing others?

>>5826870
No, I think it means 'appear as a philosopher to yourself', not to bother with the judgement of others.

>>5826866
That's exactly what it means. Be anything, but don't moan about it. At least, that's what I thought it meant.

Except here it says "yield properly" to fate. So, I think that means that there is a correct way to yield to nature. I don't know.

Euripides obviously did some bad ass shit and is using determinism to justify or come to terms with his behaviour

I'm pretty sure that second part is about concerning yourself only with philosophy/rightness, which then questions the whole 'do whatever' interpretation of the first bit.

>>5826897
I think more than just coming to terms, he is advocating "stopping the bleeding." In other words, he is trying to improve himself. I don't think he wants to continue being a shithead, if he ever was one.

On another note, I read somewhere that a lot of these stoics were mean to their wives. They talk about having mean wives. Epictetus mentions Socrates had a mean wife and a less than great family life.

It makes me think that maybe some of these philosophers should have stopped thinking so much about the meaning of life and start wondering why they were so apathetic to their families. Or maybe apathy for family stems from stoicism. I don't know. Just a thought.

>>5826912
What's not right, or immoral, about doing whatever? As long as you don't hurt anyone, I don't think that conflicts. Anger doesn't really go along with stoicism, so if you attack someone out of anger, I don't think that's very stoic. You are yielding to your fate, but not "properly."

I try to live my life by certain moral and ethical principles, however sometimes I slip up and do something that directly contravenes those values. Guilt stems from those kinds of behaviours, and guilt can be life consuming. I feel like Euripides is talking about how he overcame the guilt that he carried for some of his behaviour in the past. I don't know what he did or what he feels he is trying to atone for, but I definitely sense an attempt to rationalise personal choices.

>>5826934
It makes absolutely no sense as a philosophy unless it's founded upon some principles or something, dude. There's literally nothing there to teach. And because people will do what they will do because of their emotions, that's the determinism of it. I think it's more about getting oneself under control and doing right, whatever right.

>>5826955
Epictetus says that the effects of philosophy are shown by your fleece. This means that the more you practice philosophy, the more it become obvious. The virtue of your life is obvious in your outward actions. Your principles are obvious through your actions.

It does sound like determinism, I'll admit. But you are consciously controlling your virtues, and Epictetus says you have control over the way you see things. Your free will is in your perspective.

The Stoic ethic espouses a deterministic perspective; in regard to those who lack Stoic virtue, Cleanthes once opined that the wicked man is "like a dog tied to a cart, and compelled to go wherever it goes."[6] A Stoic of virtue, by contrast, would amend his will to suit the world and remain, in the words of Epictetus, "sick and yet happy, in peril and yet happy, dying and yet happy, in exile and happy, in disgrace and happy,"[7] thus positing a "completely autonomous" individual will, and at the same time a universe that is "a rigidly deterministic single whole."

Stoicism is to take control, basically; to not allow your emotions to run you around. It's about doing right by the world.

>>5825783
Not the poster you are referencing, but I think he was parodying deterministic philosophies which are life denying. Stoicism asks one to live in virtue in the face of all terrible things because the bad which happens in the face of virtue would have happened otherwise as well. Then again, I haven't read Candide in years.

>>5827000
Trips.

Yeah, I think you're right.

>>5822222
goddamn i hate stoic people

show some fucking emotion you tossers

I just failed at being Stoic in that thread about approaching grills

>>5827064
Is laughter an emotion?

I don't think a Stoic has to be emotionless, just be more in touch with one's emotions, which would then serve to resolve a lot of them, because a lot of them are fucking retarded

>>5827097
A stoic is always happy, that's all it means really. Happy despite any outward appearances. Happy and peaceful, presumably, since he would have no reason to fight.

>>5822871
>that indifferent feel when can grow a beard but not a mustache and everyone thinks you're Amish

>>5827116
No, a stoic appears calm in the face of deep troubling.

>>5826289

>>5826356
The most glorious thing about understanding apatheia is no man and no thing can then take it away from you. Live on, my brother.

>>5826359
No reason for sadness, anon!

>>5826364
I think empathy captures reasonably my meaning. Not very specific though.

>>5826372
Would love to have coffee with you, fedora. I never have the pleasure of meeting someone with your mindset very often, and getting to know you would be a wonderful way to spend an afternoon. Fight on - your posts do a service to get the ideologically underdeveloped to start thinking harder.

>>5826515
Only to have nice real-life representations of the models I used in my reasoning. I will put them over the mantel when I have somewhere greater to live.

>>5826351
Not before finals week, anon. If stoicism threads come up over break I might.

>>5827114
With everyone's emotions!

>>5827451
Actually, brain damage from attacks or accidents can very much take it away from you.

Bamp

Is it possible for the mentally ill to practice stoicism? I have Borderline Personality Disorder, but stoicism always struck a chord with me. I try to be a good stoic, to inform my life and actions with love and understanding. It's just so hard to be a good man when I'm always so disillusioned and confused. Should I just try to accept my nature? Help me, stoicbros.

>>5827945
mentally ill, phew
don't they chain your kind to the wall in the dark wet and cold basements

>>5827945
If you don't have immense will power and self-discipline, you're pretty much shit out of luck.

It's an incredibly hard philosophy to live by, especially if you're a cuckoo cuckoo bird.

>>5827953
Nope, they favor chemical cocktails to turn us into halfhearted facsimiles of normal people. Get with the times, we're progressive and understanding now.

>>5827958
What does a stoic even look like?

Someone neutral and calm, equally so in the best situations and the worst?

>>5827961
Behold, the stoic ideal.

>>5827967
The dude is more epicurean than stoic.

>>5827967
>>5827972
Also, I think it's time you get this stuck in your head:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s10ldVRHRSw

>>5827974
My thirst for kahlua is growing.

>>5827959
it's a pity

>Now he said to Joenes, "Yes, we've found the cellar very good. It's moist and dark, and that seems to help the excitable types."
>"But why do you keep them in chains?" Joenes asked.
>"It gives them a sense of being wanted," the doctor said. "Also, the educational value of heavy chains must not be underestimated. Sunday is visitors' day, and when we bring people past our howling, filth-laden madmen, it creates an unforgettable picture in their minds. >Psychology concerns itself as much with prevention as with cure, and our statistical samplings show that people who have viewed our underground cells are much less likely to go insane than the population at large.

>>5822222

>>5824443
>Epicurus or Pyrrho.

>>5826780

Do what presents itself to the best of your ability, and be willing to complete the task fate has given you.

So don't begrudgingly complain about having to buy Christmas presents for your family, buy them and be grateful for the opportunity to do s.

>>5827974
The Coen Bros did a great job directing this movie

>>5822222
Nice numbers, Quintillius.