/lit/ - Literature

>>5599637

Don't care either way. This stuff has been going on since the beginning of time.

>>5599649
>since the beginning of time.

I guess cavemen were into their 1D fanfics then?

What the devil are you talking about boy?

>Spend two weeks working on a poem
>publish in shitty magazine: fifty quid and a free issue reward for 60 lines
>read guardian, some inbred hick is making paper off their fanfic, again
>deeply question life choices
>try to write some 50 shades of shit type nonsense
>realise I can't do it
>question talent
>resign myself to poverty and misery because I can't even sell out if I want to.
>come to 4chan and whine about it like an impotent bitch.

>tfw the filthy plebs wont leave my medium alone

Who's idea was it to educate the masses again?

>women

>>5599663
you probably don't realize how many fanfic authors don't have any publishing except on line in their whole life

>>5599667
>my medium

Show us some of your deathless prose then anon, let's see how you stack up against Fifty Shades.

>yfw you can't get anyone interested in your work because it's actually shit.

>>5599653

I'm talking about shit becoming popular while being undeserving. Everyone knows where you're going with this. It's not worth discussing.

Of course it sucks. Of course everyone here thinks they are writing the Great American Novel. Of course we probably are not.

So some Texas housewife went out and wrote shit and is getting a pay day. Good for her. She got that money because teenage girls are guaranteed to buy it. They're the only consumers left anymore.

Let's be honest, if the next Great American Novel came out tomorrow, a book that made every critic and publisher and academic lose their shit and say, "this is it, this is the big one," that shit isn't gonna make any money. 90% of the threads here would be, "Hey /lit/, anyone know where I can find this? Anyone want to send me this?"

It doesn't mean I'm going to throw the next Great American Novel in the trash and start writing 1D fanfic. It just means some Texas housewife wrote a 1D fanfic and made some money. Good for her.

>>5599677
It's better than Fifty Shades I can tell you that much. My post was semi-satirical anyway.

>while her husband was away getting shot at by sand people
>his wife wrote down her sex fantasies about some young men
>she is the one with all the money now

How long before they divorce?

>>5599637
Life is unpredictable and thus more exciting.
Some talented writers will succeed, some trash authors, too.
Other shitty literature will fail, some great masterpieces, too.
If it were different, destiny would be controllable and the future foreseeable, and we all know it doesn't work like this.

Of course, you can influence the probability (e.g. good connections more likely result to get published, hard work won't be a disadvantage) but the final decision is done by god, randomness, whatever is true, whatever you believe in.

So, to answer your question. I don't care. I write my own shit, try my best, and hope life was fun.

>>5599683
>I can tell you that much.

Show, don't tell. Didn't you learn anything from your online correspondence course in "WRITING THE BESTEST BUK EVAH"?

>>5599653
>taking it this literally
He means that 'shitty art' has always been more appreciated than 'real art'

>>5599679
>They're the only consumers left anymore.
why don't you write that kind of poetry they would buy then :3

>>5599686
>while her husband was away getting shot at by sand people

I think you meant.

>while her husband was away killing people in the name of 'democracy'

>>5599693
>'shitty art' has always been more appreciated than 'real art'

citation required, because it looks like you're talking out of your arse, m8.

>The 583-page tome that is After centres on the relationship of an innocent American college freshman who meets a British man named Hardin Scott – the publishers chose not call him Harry Styles in print, but the connection becomes clear early on as the reader is introduced to an array of characters whose names knock off the rest of the One Direction crew and encounters detailed descriptions of Scott’s Styles-esque tattoos.

Disgusting.

>>5599693
>'shitty art' has always been more appreciated than 'real art'

I don't think that's true.

>>5599679
>They're the only consumers left anymore.

>implying teenagers don't download books off the internet.

The main consumers for this shit are over 30s women. That's who bought up fifty shades wholesale. Why do you think it's being publicised in The Guardian, and not Just 17 magazine?

If you write commercial fiction aimed at teenaagers, you'll go broke because they don't buy anything. You need to write something that will sit on the shelf, heavily discounted, in Asda or Walmart, so the fat cows can just graze it up along with their chocolate and celebrity magazines.

>>5599696
>>5599699
Did i say that? Just saying what that other bloke was on about

>>5599694

I have no interest in it. I have an interest in wanting to be great.

>>5599705
but it's how people like shakespear became great, they wrote the stuff their potential public and monarchs liked

>>5599706
What if I told you that you could pander to an audience, and make great works as you do it?

>>5599686

>while her husband was away getting shot at by sand people, his wife didn't go fuck around with Jody's and lived out her fantasies in her harmless fan fiction.
>while her husband was away getting shot at by sand people, his wife didn't go fuck around with Jody's and actually did something which turned into a big payday and helped bring money into the family.

Some people see things differently. She sounds like a fuckin' winner to me.

Plus you underestimate that military pension.

1 Direction doesn't make good music but gawd they are hot. Will see the movie, might by the book if it's good. You all know that if there was a book being published and a movie adaption of female pop singers with lots of sex in it, you would see it, perhaps even read the book.

>>5599703
Okay. I'm sorry I don't know the intricacies of the market. Teenage girls or middle aged moocows, my point still stands.

>>5599691
I'd rather not derail the thread. I'm not claiming I'm publishable, or that I ever will be. My gripe, as it should be, is with the market being desaturated by this thoughtless tripe. It makes it harder for those writers with actual insight to earn a living and consequently impoverishes contemporary literature. It's capitalism at it's best; rewarding the shit that sells because it's accessible, rather than things of genuine quality because it doesn't appeal to everybody immediately.

>>5599679
There is very little truth in this.

The fact of the matter is ebook pirating just isn't streamlined and mainstream enough to be as bad as the other mediums -- older consumer base = less experience with technology.

With that in mind, let's look at an example: The Luminaries. Won the Man Booker prize, lots of buzz, and so on. 23k ratings on goodreads, 1200 ratings on amazon. Even with an extreme overestimation claiming 1/5 of any books readers will use goodreads (no way), that makes the novel's gross over a million dollars at the very least.

Literary fiction isn't a cash cow, sure, but they sure wouldn't be in business if it didn't make decent money.

>>5599704

If you can't back up your retarded statements, then why are you bothering to white-knight a retarded stranger?

I smell samefaggotry.

>>5599707
where i told you you should write bad poetry for teen girls, write great one :3

>>5599713
>I'm not claiming I'm publishable, or that I ever will be.
>but I'm better than that woman because my mum says I'm a great writer and all my friends as well

lel

>>5599713
It's going to be like what happened with art.

>"artists" make shit
>for some reason people go nuts over it and spend hundreds of thousands on shit (literally, a can of shit)
>now everyone only makes shit because they're smart enough to make a buck, but not smart enough to make something good

>>5599707
Cormac McCarthy is the only contemporary author I know of who can write great work that the masses enjoy.

>>5599696
>>5599699
Maybe not always, but we are going that way. Top sellers for the last 30 years:

1984: The Talisman by Stephen King and Peter Straub
1985: The Mammoth Hunters by Jean M. Auel
1986: It by Stephen King
1987: The Tommyknockers by Stephen King
1988: The Cardinal of the Kremlin by Tom Clancy
1989: Clear and Present Danger by Tom Clancy
1990: The Plains of Passage by Jean M. Auel
1991: Scarlett: The Sequel to Margaret Mitchell's "Gone with the Wind" by Alexandra Ripley
1992: Dolores Claiburne by Stephen King
1993: The Bridges of Madison County by James Robert Waller
1994: The Chamber by John Grisham
1995: The Rainmaker by John Grisham
1996: The Runaway Jury by John Grisham
1997: The Partner by John Grisham
1998: The Street Lawyer by John Grisham
1999: The Testament by John Grisham
2000: The Brethern by John Grisham
2001: Desecration by Jerry B. Jenkins and Tim LaHaye
2002: The Summons by John Grisham
2003: Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix by J.K. Rowling
2004: The Da Vinci Code by Dan Brown
2005: The Broker by John Grisham
2006: For One More Day by Mitch Albom
2007: Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows by J.K. Rowling
2008: The Appeal by John Grisham
2009: The Lost Symbol by Dan Brown
2010: The Girl Who Kicked the Hornet's Nest by Stieg Larsson
2011: The Litigators by John Grisham
2012: Fifty Shades of Grey by E.L. James
2013: Gone Girl
2014: (Thus far) Divergent by Veronica Roth

>>5599713
Jesus, man. Don't be so self righteous. Everything in the market can't be all thought provoking and high brow and difficult. Jesus Christ, we'd have like 3 books released a year.

>>5599715
because im bored as fuck

>>5599711
I'm going to name the most recent female pop 'stars' that I have heard of (heard of, not heard) and you shall see how out of touch with contemporary popular music I am, how little I care for it, and how wrong you are.

>Beyonce
>Britney Spears
>Madonna

Now kindly fuck off with your trolling sir, and take your cape with you.

>>5599713
Capitalism doesn't reward shit writing, it just makes it all about marketing.

>>5599714
That's probably fair to say and I'm too critical of it sometimes. I guess it's best to say it's no longer the cash cow it was and that it's been replaced by other entertainment industries.

>>5599724

>this is shit art because I say it is
>no, I'm not jelly, not at all

kek

>>5599718
I really don't care what you think.

>>5599725
No it doesn't have to be, you're absolutely right. I'm not against the publication of something if it appeals to people. I'm questioning the concept of giving more money to those that produce something visceral for a larger audience than to those who produce something of with more quality for a smaller one.

>>5599731
Im not a writer, and I dont give a fuck anyways, but to say that shit lit isnt rewarded over and beyond isnt really true anymore.

If you pander to the lowest common denominator you are pandering to 75% of your market. Aside from IT, maybe Stieg Larsson, and some of Clancy's Works, the rest are pretty low tier YA level writng.

I did learn about how to go down on a girl from mammoth hunters though

>>5599738
>I really don't care what you think.
>and I'm going to post repeatedly so you can be certain how much I don't care.

>>5599740

Your definition of "shit" is irrelevant. Nobody cares what you think, tard.

>>5599738

But your second point doesn't make sense.

"Well, person A is going to sell 1000 copies. person B is going to sell 10 copies. But since we all know B's work is better we're gonna give B the money we were gonna give A." That doesn't work.

The world knows this. It's why we have things like the MacArthur Grants and such. It's why in the past, many of the great artists had "sponsors" and patrons, rich people who basically employed them because they appreciated their work.

This is nothing new.

>>5599653
>Cavemen writing rockfiction about rocks

>>5599637
whenever threads like these come up i remember when i was 16 and knew people who were genuinely mad that kids loved mainstream music instead of rock
oh no shit taste sells! why don't people like what i like, that's the reason i have a bad social life! fuck clubs!

>>5599706
>Writing for the mainstream.
>Not writing the book you would want to read.?

Popularity is not by itself a good enough reason to spend that much time and effort writing. It is irrelevant how many shekels you make in the end.

>>5599744
>>5599744
Would you argue that the number of sales, or popularity, is the only factor to consider when determining the quality of art? No, neither would I, neither would anyone with half a brain. Yet, sadly, in a society that revolves around acquiring money that's is pretty much what happens.

>"Well, person A is going to sell 1000 copies. person B is going to sell 10 copies. But since we all know B's work is better we're gonna give B the money we were gonna give A."

Holy extrapolation Batman. Just because I think there's an inequality in quality of work/money earnt from work doesn't mean that I think the majority of the money should be given to those that regard quality in their work over potential audience.

Sure, in terms of the capitalist model, rewarding those that push more units can be considered 'fair', however, I would argue that the fact that this then has a negative consequence on those that aren't producing things for a larger audience brings that fairness into question. It's not just a case of having a smaller piece of the pie, but having a piece of the pie at all. Why would publishers give an opportunity to an unpublished writer that is writing about subjects that aren't the latest flavour of the month? Why would they offer this a person an opportunity when they aren't guaranteed a certain amount of sales, when they could equally offer the opportunity to someone who is? Why would they risk their livelihood? After all, art doesn't make the world go round.

And I haven't even mentioned marketing.

In terms of encouraging quality, the system is broken.

>>5599760

>No, Ugh, you are the bison
>and then Ugh was a hoers

>>5599838
is that horse shitting? was that shitdrawing?

>>5599637
>caring about money or integrity

You'll all fail to become writers.

>>5599856
>You'll all fail to become writers.

So will you.

>No man but a blockhead ever wrote except for money.

- Johnson, My Johnson

>>5599863
I'm the Jack Kerouac of the 21st century.

What was wrong with that sentence, bitch?

>>5599867

>>5599867

I suspect youre trying to derail the thread by b8ing people into posting "kerouac a shit" and so forth.

>>5599872
Ah! You resort to memes!

You have lost this intellectual battle! You knew there was nothing wrong with that sentence and tried to make yourself superior to I but I will not allow it! You have fallen to my sword of honesty!

>>5599875
It was simply a joke, my dear boy.

>>5599876

>implying I said anything was wrong with the sentence
>missing the point repeatedly

>>5599881

>>5599887
In what way will I fail, my dear child?

>>5599888
I don't understand. Is that a meme you children like to post about?

This shouldn't be surprising to anyone.

The main problem with aspiring writers is that no matter how well they write they lack the ability to create anything with marketing ability. Surprise, people are stupid and need to be sold on an idea. Simply being of a moderately high quality isn't enough anymore.

That's why coming on /lit/ us so satisfying as someone who has a secure job writing for a studio. As hundreds of /lit/-core types apply for my position each week, I know that most of them could never dream of replacing me. The idea of marketing scares them or they're too sheltered and idealistic to understand how marketing even works.

>caring about money or being known
>not just writing for the sake of it and expressing yourself
>in the end you die anyway and will never know if your writing takes off after death
>caring this much

>>5599893
>>5599896
>>5599876
>>5599867

>>5599905
I asked you a simple question.

You can answer it. No need to post meme pictures, my child.

>>5599724
>7 consecutive years of grisham

>>5599906

It's considered good form to stop when you've been called out for trolling.

>falling for OPs bait this hard

Stop being fucking children, or start playing the game.

>>5599649

No it hasn', fanfiction being published after slight cosmetic tweaks is a pretty new phenomenon based on the fact that publlishers see this stuff getting a lot of attention without paid-for publicity and think "I want some of that".

Sine fifty shades, every publishing house is looking for some new garbage they can churn out with minimal effort. This is a whole new kind of hackery, entirely a product of the internet era.

>>5599900
>being this much of a sell out

>>5599637
The same way I feel about a stock-broker getting a large commission on a transaction. Good for him, good for her; they're doing something completely foreign to me.

>>5599985

>beng this scared that nobody's interested in buying what you have to sell

It's OK, a lot of cowards use "integrity" as an excuse, you're not alone.

>>5599990
>hurr i'll use quotations to imply that integrity is a construct whilst simultaneously calling you a coward with full sincerity

>>5599999

>hurrr durr I'll waste my duble trips dubs to make an asinine post in greentext that makes no sense and fails to hide the stench of terror that emanates from my cowardly position in life

>>5600010

>hurr durr I truly believe in an un-ironic way that dubs and trips have any tangible merit and matter in any way possible

>>5599999
>imply that integrity is a construct

I was implying that in your case it's a constuct that you use to justify your intellectual cowardice and lack of marketable talent, so yes, I guess..

>>5600010
>hurr im stupid and cant get gets even though i desperately crave them and hold within me some sort of reverence to the meaning of their posts as this anon alluded to>>5600024

>>5600024
>>5600034

>implying unironic

Ah, you guys are priceless.

>>5599867
Don't be so hard on yourself.

>>5600040

I gave your mother a hard on herself last night.

>>5600045
You've been jerking off my tranny mother?

>>5600045
You've been here for like three hours, man. Just stop.

>>5600039
>i was just pretending

>Capitalism

people make 10 figures for putting balls in baskets and I'm supposed to be bothered by wll paid fan-lit?

I don't fucking care. Delete this stupid thread.

>>5600067

>hurr durr no-one lieks trips and dubs unironically
>except U lel

You're probably too retarded to even understand how retarded that is.

>>5600135
>I don't fucking care.
>Delete this stupid thread.

some contradiction here?

>thread about books and publishing
>on /lit/
>delete it

kek

How many on /lit/ write fanfic? Does this kind of thing inspire fanficcers, or do they get butthurt at someone elses's success?

Also, is it "selling out" if you change all the names so you don't get sued? I wonder how the community thinks about it

Every writer knows a positive reception with the public is a secondary convenience

>>5600549

Does that include fan fiction though?

>>5600570
I think that at a certain level, fan fiction has to just be about someone finding an easy outlet for some predisposition to creative writing, and it comes with a built-in audience so it's even easier to

>>5600580

So has candlejack started taking people even if they don't say his na

>>5600603
this is the only appropriate way to end a fanfiction. it's pretentious to try and have a resolution with characters you didn't create

>>5600607
>it's pretentious to try and have a resolution with characters you didn't create

Yeah, that Shakepeare cunt and his rip-off remakes of other people's shit. Fucking hack.

>>5600617
like charlemagne and alexander the great, shakespeare really didn't exist bruh

>>5600622

>this is what uneducated people actually believe

>>5600617
It's not nearly the same as unimaginative, talentless house-wives xoxoxo

>>5600651

>I have no real response
>move the goalposts

>>5600622

So /lit/ is as stupid as always then? I've been awway a while.

>>5599695

Fight the power, good sir.

>>5599741
That looks like a man.

>>5601879
You can tip your fucking funny hat all you want mate, i was more making a point about that anon sounding like a tabloid journalist than anything political.

>all these assumptions that, purely because of her subject matter, she must be bad at writing
>all these anons apparently convinced that, if it wasn't for their gosh-darned artistic integrity, they'd all be making hundreds of thousands of megabux through their writing
Ha!

>>5601879
not being racist is so fedora-y

>>5604147
Anything can be fedoratastic if you follow it with a picture of a man tipping his fedora. Has 4chan taught you nothing?

>>5604145
>implying anything on wattpad is of quality

>>5599915
fuck I never realised he was so dominant

NOTHING. I FELL NOTHING ABOUT ANYTHING AT ALL.

The subject matter is unimportant. Her writing a fanfic about 1D is no different from Homer writing stories about the heroes of his day.

>>5604551
>There's nothing wrong with glorifying mediocre musicians

>>5604551
kek

I feel good. I don't see why her being a housewife or from Texas is important except to bias /lit/'s misogynists against her. I don't have anything against housewives, Texans, or fan fiction in general.

>>5599637
I think it's funny to assume that anyone on /lit/ will write a better book than she has.

>>5606203
>misogynists
Opinion discarded.

>>5606203
> or fan fiction in general
Opinion discarded.

>>5606225
You: white/male/20 years old/that useless pedant your peers roll their eyes at

Right back at you.

>>5606262
Are you autistically obsessive? Do you arrange your toys by size?

Fuck I googled "1D fan fiction" now. I'm stuck with reading them, shit is fascinating

Anyone with a bone to pick over genre fiction or "badly written" fiction should read Fiedler, especially "Toward an Amateur Criticism":

http://www.kenyonreview.org/kr-online-issue/kenyon-review-credos/selections/leslie-a-fiedler-656342/

>>5606266
You: white or hispanic/female/21 years old/that exceedingly sentimental radical left feminist undercover racist and sexist bitch that is picky towards every single smallest, virtually nonexistent identity politics issue and also holds strong opinions based on pure emotion and relativism.
Also tu quote + ad hominem.

>>5606363
You sure got me pegged.

A pragmatist would ask, "Relative to what?" Relativism implies an absolute.

Unless you said "relative to the values and meanings put across by a discourse community," in which case that doesn't sound like your pejorative "relativism." It sounds pretty sensible to make a frame of reference for values and meanings according to what your peers communicate. The charge of relativism always seems so emotionally motivated.

>>5606397
>You sure got me pegged.
Heh, ever got the age right?
>A pragmatist would ask, "Relative to what?" >Relativism implies an absolute.
Indeed, but my mind probably meant "somebody who only views only from his perspective without major concern of people with differing views" and put it in wrong manner. I would correct "relative" to "egotistical" if I had a chance but whatever now.

>>5606520
I was being sarcastic. You weren't close on anything. Typing
>misogynists
>Opinion discarded
shows just as much concern for identity politics as any "SJW."

Publishing is a business and it would foolish for them to pass up something that can get them sweet returns for at least 2 years for a small 6 figure investment. Also women are the majority of readers in america.

I've been writing Always Sunny erotica for the past two years.

I've written 7 short stories and one full length novel.

I've never told anyone except you guys right now.

>>5606637
B-but there's only one girl on that show and she's not even attractive. Please tell me you exclude Devito and focus solely on Mac's tranny gf.

>>5606637
Links. Now.

>>5606902
>Please tell me you exclude Devito

Nope.

I've written "the gang fucks Dee", one about Charlie being tied down and forced to watch everyone bang the waitress, "Cricket's revenge", "you two aren't banging are ya?", Charlie and Dee stories, Charlie and Frank stories, Mac and Dennis stories and yes a couple involving the trannie.

It's more funny than erotic to be honest, but I don't know if I'll ever show anyone.

>>5606979
I might upload them soon, no links up yet.

Also, they are really bad. I'm not a good fiction writer and I'm ok with that.

>>5599724
i think it's fair to here point out that the large historical periods usually last several hundred years, and that anything within our current (modern) period cannot be assumed to apply to any other period.

the "shitty" art criticism has been around for as long as there has been a bourgeois class, and can be said to be a product of that class' poor tastes.

see, for instance, alexander pope and his essay called "The Art of Sinking in Poetry."

>>5604511
settle down vlad

>>5599724
The moral of this post is simple: learn to write like Stephen King and/or John Grisham, anything else is a waste of time.

>>5606996
give us a sample

>>5600135
Yeah except putting balls in baskets at the level they do is really fucking hard.

>>5599724
>The Chamber
>The Rainmaker
>The Runaway Jury
>The Partner
>the Street Lawyer
>The Testament
>The Brethern
>The Summons
>The Broker
>The Appeal
>The Litigators

Now that's some creative titling there, Johnny.

>>5606637
... I'd be willing to pay you money to read some of those.

>>5599724
I've never read a John Grisham novel, but I have to say I'm kinda impressed with that streak of top sellers. Dude beat out pretty much every Harry Potter book save for two. As well as Hunger Games/Twilight.

Unfortunately, this will only get worse now that women are the primary consumer in pretty much every genre except console video gaming.

>>5599637
People need to stop thinking of books as either good or shit. A book's greatness is determined by how well it caters to its specific demographic. For example, Twilight had everything it's readers wanted in it. It tapped into a deep subconscious attraction the brooding vampire the public had, and in that was it was well written. I'm not saying you have to like it, or that I do, but not everyone is looking for the same thing in literature. Plenty of books with literary merit get debated here about whether they truly deserve it or not.

>>5599723
muhnigga.jpg

>>5607754
>and in that it was well written
We are talking about Twilight, correct? And just because something achieves what it set out to do doesn't mean it's not total garbage.

>>5607754
>tapped into a deep subconscious
shut the fuck up, idiot.

>>5607827
if people like it its not total garbage

>>5607840
someones mad they arent getting published

I like that people itt started really getting into the idea of Anon's It's Always Sunny erotic fanfic.

If it was the other way around the guy wouldn't get a 6 figure deal, he'd get his teeth kicked in by a swat team as they pull every single device they can out of the house looking for signs of pedophilia.

>>5599637
ebin

>>5606985
Please man
PLEASE

>>5608122
I love this jpg.

>>5608018
AHAHAHAHAHAHA

Have you ever seen Big Brother? Or any other similarly terrible 'reality' shows?

>>5599663
If you equate quality with monetary success you'll never write anything good anyway. The very fact that you're here possibly implies that you're incapable of descending under a certain intellectual level in the first place, no matter how low /lit/ can get (it's still very much above the level of people who read drivel like 50 shades, Twilight and this fanfic).

If you write well money will follow in one way or the other, though you might not necessarily become a millionaire. I think Lovecraft's life is telling in this aspect, how he didn't like writing for money and was excessively relaxed about that aspect of his life, which prevented him from capitalizing on his own successes many times. Due to that he was broke when he died. But he'll probably be relevant even at the end of this century while just a couple decades later it will be as if this Anna Todd person never existed as far as literature is concerned.

>>5599713
>the market being desaturated by this thoughtless tripe. It makes it harder for those writers with actual insight to earn a living and consequently impoverishes contemporary literature

If there's anything that never ceases to amaze me about Marxist, it's their undying, unrelenting belief in everything in the world being a zero-sum game.

There's nobody out there that says "Hmm, maybe I should purchase Infinite Jest... but no, then I won't have enough money for the Fifty Shades trilogy!". If these books weren't sold, then either something else would take their place, or nothing would - but neither would the "serious" stuff. People who like high-brow literature buy it, people who like low-brow stuff buy that, people who like both buy both (or maybe all of them borrow or pirate, but that's beside the point).