/lit/ - Literature

http://www.theonion.com/articles/god-diagnosed-with-bipolar-disorder,348/

Explains all.

>>558425

Funny. But seriously, do Theiest even read their books? This is just hard to believe.

>>558430
I remember my angsty atheist phase. You'll grow out of it soon and realize you have to appreciate people for themselves, not for their labels. Good luck!

Don't fault the creators for the acts of the Demiurge.

He was a dick.

The Bible is just a collection of fictionalized accounts of real life events to teach a certain lesson. Most of them are incredibly enlarged to increase the effect on people's minds and reinforce the idea that God is to be feared for his powers are endless.

Most theists (at least the ones worth talking to) understand this, so I don't see this as a big deal.

>>558468

There's was a flood at the beginning of time?

>>558480

There was possibly a great flood of the red sea or mediterrainean sea, given that Sumerian, Judeo Christian and even Greek lore speak of an eerily similar event. But a world-wide flood? Not likely.

>>558456

> angsty atheist phase

not sure if trolling

>You'll grow out of it soon and realize you have to appreciate people for themselves, not for their labels

Okay, now I'm sure. I didn't start this whole bible-study thing so I can say shit like "lol, you believe Noah was 600 years old!" but instead to understand the origin of christianity, and other religions as well. I understand the stories are only stories, but I'm looking for the morals.

Plus, already stated I was a deist and don't give a shit about labels. I just hate mindless sheep (who never read the scriptures).

>>558480

Cataclysmic events periodically occur. This is a fact.
Great flood narratives point to this reality.

>>558493

>but instead to understand the origin of christianity
Please understand that the Bible was not created until the 300's.

You should also understand that the Bible is not considered a revealed text according to Catholic theologians.

>>558493
>but I'm looking for the morals

You will never come close to understanding religion if you limit yourself to ethics.

>>558508

I know the bible wasn't written until well after the death of jesus. I'm attempting to understand the mind-set of people who read the book, and go "oh, that makes sense".

> revealed text

could you elaborate on this please?

>>558468
I live with people and met several others that consider the bible tales as factual historical events
Most christians probably do. Just look at the fight against evolutionism

>>558468

>Most theists (at least the ones worth talking to) understand this, so I don't see this as a big deal.

Wrong, just wrong.

>>558493

Origin of christianity? Son, it's just a Jewish off-shoot of which Judaism is one of several (both alive and dead) mutations of Zoroastrianism which, in itself, was just some guy tinkering around with the already conceived notion of a singular god (of which the Egyptians happened upon some centuries earlier).

The Bible itself is pretty damn cool when you can separate the actual history from the relevatory stories like with Sodom and Gomorrah. They prbably didn't die from godly wrath but perhaps a meteor shower or someone took extreme poetic license with a society, supposedly very sinful. Maybe there was a deadly outbreak of a sexually transmitted disease that ended up whiping out those towns. Now this is fascinating.

> revealed text

A book written by god, or dictated by hi and recorded by someone. Essentially a huge load used to convince people its true. The Muslims do it too.

>>558468
I forgot to mention that most religions also have certain dogmas which are to be believed by the theist no matter how stupid it may sound.

Like the virgin birth of Mary:
>"The Fathers and the medieval theologians continually used the analogy of light passing through glass: just as light passes through glass without breaking it, so Our Lord is born of the Virgin Mary without breaking the seal of Her virginity."

>>558518

>could you elaborate on this please?

According to the Muslims, the Qur'an was given to man by God. The Jews view their scriptures in a similar manner. According to these two religions, their holy texts do not have a human origin.

Christians authorities have never held this view.
According to Christianity, God revealed himself in Jesus Christ, not in the Bible.

The Bible is inspired, but not revealed.

Read the scriptures of any religion and you will see that things are pretty weird in there. Then realize that they were written (for the most part) thousands of years ago, when lives were different and intentions were dissimilar to today's.

The Bible is the Jewish and Christian equivalent of Greek myth. Interesting.

>>558456
This.

>>558528
What do you mean by wrong?
You know any christian worth talking to who actually believes the whole world suffered a flood?

I went to a Catholic school (I'm an atheist) and the school's principal, a priest over 60yo, talked about Noah's ark, stating that even science had proven that it was impossible. Same with Adam and Eve...

>>558518
The gospel of Mark and the Q source existed as written documents likely within 20 years of Jesus' death.
>>558415
I know it's kinda weird and like, a terrible justification for lots of atrocities and wrong-headed thinking, but I think its worth reading so you can understand 19th-c German thinking. Israel has a covenant with God. Israel breaks covenant. God sends prophet. Prophet tells Israel God is not pleased. Israel kills prophet. God smites away.
The Christian contribution to this dialectic is in conceiving of Jesus as the last prophet. His coming will bring about the 'kingdom of God' on Earth, and end Jewish salvation history once and for all.

You can see echoes of this pattern in Hegel and Marx in particular. Thesis (covenant), Antithesis (breaking of covenant), Synthesis (renewed covenant) and so on and so on. Absolute Spirit in that sense could be understood as the kingdom of God. Marx as well sees communism as the end of history, of God's tumultuous relationship with the world.

It's important to realize that bible scholarship originated in 18th-c Germany and that all the philosophers from Germany in the 19th-c were brought up in schools in which this kind of redaction criticism was popular, so they all had it deeply instilled in them.

So, read the bible.

>>558547

The historical context should not be forgotten, but this should not lead one to dismiss scriptures as something "outdated". Truth does not grow old.

You'll grow out of the angry atheist phase when you realise that looking down on people for being religious is not any better than when religious people look down on people who's not one of their own. It doesn't matter if you think you have logic on your side. Being right doesn't let you be a dick. An able person can't just talk to a cripple about walking without being a dick, yet his opinion is right. You become a douchebag when you're the one who BRINGS UP a subject where you find superiority. If you want to be a cool atheist, then never speak of religion. If somebody tries to speak of religion, say "no". Say it again, again, and again. In the rare chance that the conversation is really really serious about discussing faith in detail ( which never happen, ever ) THEN you can bring up your bible quotes on the table, and end it in five minutes without being a rebel-without-a-cause about the oppression of religion in humankind's history and how every theist is a poo-poo head.

>>558415
Well you haven't even really read it that closely clearly, God hated the world he created because the world had turned to sin and there was literally only one righteous family left, Noah's. And the promise was that he'd never smite the world with a deadly flood ever again. If you're gonna make fun of Bible stories at least read them closely shit.

He doesn't promise to never smite men again. Read it another time, heh.

oh, good kids

you need to read this before you read the bible

>>558592

Wow... Atheist status [*]Told [ ]Not Told

>>558592

Seriously, get out right now. Your pissing me off.

Already stated I was a deist, not an athiest. So I know your trolling.

Never said I look down on theist, cool straw-man argument. Everyone here is having an educated discussion except for you. You think you are so awesome and inciteful because you're super tolarant of people. just leave you're putting words in my mouth and I don't like it.

8/10 would rage again.

>>558553

>You can see echoes of this pattern in Hegel and Marx in particular. Thesis (covenant), Antithesis (breaking of covenant), Synthesis (renewed covenant) and so on and so on.

I think you might be overstating your case. The renewed Biblical covenants are not compromises. The thesis is strengthened throughout the Bible from Adam to Noah to Abraham to Moses to Jesus, not mitigated.

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>>558545

>According to Christianity, God revealed himself in Jesus Christ, not in the Bible.

Not really IMO. Sure you might have your own theories about the relationship between Jesus Christ and scripture but don't try to pretend it's at all standard.

2 Timothy 3:16 - "All scripture is God-breathed . . ." <- to say that it is "God-breathed", taken in the context of Christian and Jewish theology, is to say that it is, in fact, straight from God in the same way that Jews believe the Tanakh and Oral Torah to be straight from God and the Muslims with their Koran.

>>558611
>>558610

From my bible, King James Version;

"I will not again curse the ground any more for man's sake; for the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth;"

now the part I read as will never smite man again

"neither will I again smite any more everything living, as I have done."

So, this is a bit of a weird one. He is either saying he won't smite again (which if that's the correct translation, is a lie)

OR, he's saying he won't kill everything again (which he never did in the first place, he spared noah and many other animals.)

>>558592

Why is it that it's impossible to discuss the Bible without people going all DERP DERP YOU'RE AN ASSHOLE CRITICAL DISCUSSION IS RUDE AND BAD

Why don't you complain about when people talk about how Zeus or Thor are dicks? Probably because you're just looking to do exactly what you accuse "angsty atheists" of doing.

>>558622

Status

[X] trolled
[ ] not trolled

>>558493

>
Okay, now I'm sure. I didn't start this whole bible-study thing so I can say shit like "lol, you believe Noah was 600 years old!" but instead to understand the origin of christianity, and other religions as well. I understand the stories are only stories, but I'm looking for the morals.

You should check out some good Christian commentaries on scripture. Orthodox Christians (i.e. your Catholics and E.O. and the more conservative Protestants) tend to heavily allegorize the stories in the Old Testament. This is a very old thing - just look at the Epistle to the Hebrews, for example. In fact that'd be an excellent place to start. Another good thing to read would be the Epistle of Barnabas, an early Christian text (and not a heretical one either). You can find it online here:

http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/barnabas.html

>>558618 Never said I look down on theist, cool straw-man argument
No, of course this talk about bringing up a subject of conversation just to bash doesn't concern you. It's "trolling". It's not like you made a thread just to say
>>WTF am I reading
in reference to a religious subject you brought up.

>>558652

>Christian commentaries on scripture

The whole idea of reading it myself was so I can make my own opinion. Thanks for the link, but won't be interested until I read the old and new testament in full.

>>558639

I'm not giving you my opinion.
This is what the Orthodox and Catholic chruches affirm. Traditional Protestants also hold this view.

>In Christianity, God’s revelation of Himself takes the primary form, not of a book, but a person—the Person of Jesus Christ—a person to whom all written documents and other expressions point and from whom the truth of any particular Christian doctrine is ultimately derived. This is something the Bible itself affirms. I’m thinking, for example, of such texts as Colossians 1:15, which describes Jesus as “the image of the invisible God”, or again John 14:9, where Jesus Himself says, “He who has seen Me has seen the Father”.

The Bible is by no means the primary or essential foundation of the Christian faith.

>>558656

Ignore the fact that this is a religious text. No one would have given a shit. I am reading it as if it were a regular book. If there are inconsistencies in a book, they should be pointed out. This happens all the time without people getting butthurt. But if it's a religious text everyone flies off the handle.

I have no problems with god, no problems with christ. But I hate people who stubbornly stand by something written, and re-written thousands of times ans claim it as eternal truth.

>>558508

>You should also understand that the Bible is not considered a revealed text according to Catholic theologians.

Could you expand on this? I am myself Catholic and to my understanding we've always believed Scripture to be totally inerrant (though this does not mean that it is literally true, you have to take into account the literary forms employed by the sacred authors and what God meant to convey) - "§7. These books the Church holds to be sacred and canonical not because she
subsequently approved them by her authority after they had been composed by
unaided human skill, nor simply because they contain revelation without error,
but because, being written under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, they have God
as their author, and were as such committed to the Church." That's from Vatican I and similar pronouncements were made at Trent and etc. etc. They seem pretty unambiguous to me.

>>558662

Are you the one who wishes to understand the origins of Christianity.

If so, you should definitely take a look at how the Biblical writings were received by the early Christians. Puzzles have many pieces.

Isn't the old testament just the Jewish bible translated into different languages wrongly?

>>558670

>The Bible is by no means the primary or essential foundation of the Christian faith.

Ah okay then. I just misunderstood you.

>>558686

>wrongly

What do you mean?

>>558685

This.

It's cool that you want to understand the morality of the Old Testament and how it's understood by Christians but if you read the whole thing "nakedly" you'll fall into Dawkinsesque errors ("hurr look how immoral god is lol").

>>558690
In Hebrew some words have more then one meaning. So if you were to talk to a rabbi he would tell you a different meaning then if you were to say talk to a priest.

>>558701

All translations are flawed my friend.

>>558701

Yes but I don't see how this is relevant. Christians accept the Hebrew Old Testament alone as inspired. Translations are just an unfortunate necessity.

(there's one exception to this, that being Jerome's Vulgate for Catholics, but that's a complicated point that I won't get into)

>>558670

>The Bible is by no means the primary or essential foundation of the Christian faith.

LOL

What is? "Hop on Pop"?

>>558708
Thats why OP should learn Hebrew and read the closest thing to the original.

>>558711

>>558684

Inerrantism has been, traditionally speaking, a minority view.

Here's a quotation from CS Lewis that reflects the traditional view.

>“Naivety, error, contradiction, even (as in the cursing Psalms) wickedness are not removed. The total result is not ‘the Word of God’ in the sense that every passage, in itself, gives impeccable science or history.” Rather, he says, “it carries the Word of God; and we (under grace, with attention to tradition and to interpreters wiser than ourselves, and with the use of such intelligence and learning as we may have) receive that word from it not by using it as an encyclopedia or an encyclical,
but by steeping ourselves in its tone or temper and so learning its over-all message”

As for when you say this about your excerpt
>They seem pretty unambiguous to me.
I disagree. Your passage can be interpreted a number of ways. The passage does not specify that God is the sole author of inspired scripture for example.

>>558684
Inerrantism has been, traditionally speaking, a minority view.

Here's a quotation from CS Lewis that reflects the traditional view.

>“Naivety, error, contradiction, even (as in the cursing Psalms) wickedness are not removed. The total result is not ‘the Word of God’ in the sense that every passage, in itself, gives impeccable science or history.” Rather, he says, “it carries the Word of God; and we (under grace, with attention to tradition and to interpreters wiser than ourselves, and with the use of such intelligence and learning as we may have) receive that word from it not by using it as an encyclopedia or an encyclical, but by steeping ourselves in its tone or temper and so learning its over-all message”

As for when you say this about your excerpt
>They seem pretty unambiguous to me.
I disagree. Your passage can be interpreted a number of ways. The passage does not specify that God is the sole author of inspired scripture for example.

How come Muslims get pissed when people show Muhammad??? Not trying to troll or anything.

this instead

>>558730

Islam prohibits figural representations of all things divine.

>>558729

I think you're misunderstanding inerrancy. Inerrancy does not imply the literalism of American fundamentalists.

Providentissimus Deus and Dei Verbum give a good overview of modern Catholic views on inerrancy and Biblical authorship. Also this: http://www.frtommylane.com/bible/introduction/inerrancy.pdf

>>558730
Muslims want to make it clear that they aren't turning their prophets into demigods like the Catholics. So they don't have any pictures of any living things in their temples. Only letters and geometry. So making a picture of Muhammed is bad.

>>558746
Makes sense.

>>558741

Thank you,

I will look over your document.


The fact remains that God revealed Himself to us through his son Jesus Christ, and not through a book.

Remember, Christianity existed before anything was written down.

>>558746

>demigods like the Catholics
Catholicism does not recognize demigods.

THe main reason why the depiction of living things is forbidden in islam is because in one story mohammed made a clay-figurine of a bird and brought it alive because god gave him the power to do so. Creating a sculpture of a living thing is blasphemy because the artist wants to achieve what only god can achieve, to create a living thing. By trying to achieve utmost resemblence the artist is tryting to create something that is considered the privilege of god.

This is so ridiculous that in most parts and times this rule was neglected and only the most backwards asshats clung to it. Wahabitism really is redneckish as hell, we aren't fighting muslims, we are basically fighting illiterate peasant backwoods idiots.

>>558757
Mary

i don't really have anything to add to this thread and i don't usually come to this board as i don't read all that much. however i have read the bible and have always held a faith in god.

most of the people that come to this site are angsty little kids claiming to be atheist, becasue hating on religion is cool. the world is made up of lots of different people and lots of different belief sets. none more valid than any others. ive always been christian, but i don't mind if you dont believe in god, it doesnt affect me in the slightest what you believe. i just wish you kids felt the same way, and im sure you will when you are a little older and become less militant and angry with everything.

live and let live. be happy, dont worry about whether other people have faith in god or not.

>>558782
stop trolling.

>>558787
lol, i expected someone to cry troll. i'm not by the way, and thanks for proving my point. i'm sure you will grow up some day.

>>558782

>none more valid than any others

I disagree

woops

OP, if you're interested in this kind of thing, read something that puts it into a somewhat logical light.
Just read Joseph Campbell.

>>558782
>but i don't mind if you dont believe in god, it doesnt affect me in the slightest what you believe

oh okay then
yea i guess it doesn't matter what other people believe
their beliefs will never affect me, ever
you have made me seen the truth

>>558795

Joseph Campbell has much to say on legends, but very little to say about religions.

Check out perennialists like Schuon instead.

>>558782

not sure what I said in the OP that lets people think this. BTW some people aren't athiest because it's cool; they just don't believe in god. The way some people are christians because they worship Christ, not because their parents were.

Stop trying to sound inciteful and tolerant. We already had a troll like you earlier in the thread.

also

>angsty little kids claiming to be atheist

>dont worry about whether other people have faith in god or not

then why did you post? If you want to live and let live, go live your life and let us talk about the bible.

>>558415
It's called creationist mythology that caught on a global scale.

In another thousand years or whatever, people look back on Jews/Christians/Muslims the same way we today look at ancient Greeks and Romans.

Enjoy your fairy tale.

>>558937

Stop it right now. This was not my intention.

>>558939
What WAS your intention???

Every religion is wrong. The Bible is a work of fiction.

>>558937

>In another thousand years or whatever, people look back on Jews/Christians/Muslims the same way we today look at ancient Greeks and Romans.

Nice job. You are very good at projecting your opinions into the future anachronism-man.

>>558937
>Enjoy your fairy tale.

You should read "On Fairy Stories" by Tolkien.
Perhaps it will dispel some of your ignorance.

>>558958
No, just mainstream religion ;)

>>558958

Define "fiction".

>>558966


you're on /lit/, do you not know what 'fiction' means? GTFOOOOO

ITT monkies throwing shit, inspired by a really funny OP picture.

>>558970
He's just trying to say it isn't fiction because he believes it.

Kind of like Peter Pan isn't fiction because I believe it.

>>558966
... Stories about things that didn't really happen.

ITT Assholes arguing over something that has been argued a million times. Shut up, stop making these stupid athiest vs christian arguments.

Christians: arguing your point and saying non-believers will burn in hell will not deter Athiests

Athiests: arguing your point and saying christians are wasting their life will not deter them. Cause that have 'faith'

Shut up and move on.

>>558982
I see what you did there, and I approve.

>>558986
Agnostic detected.

>>558985

I see.
Math books are "fictional" then?
2+2=4 did not "happen."

Yes?

>>558992
2+2=4 did happen. It happens every time you add two and two together.

>>558992
No. 2+2=4

>>559002

I don't think you understand how math works.

>>559008
Whether you're attempting to argue or troll, you're doing a horrible job.

You sure you want to go around using RATIONAL numbers, bro?
Doesn't seem like your style.

>>559008

Okay, closing it down, thank but no thanks.

Fucking morons.

>>559024
>Fucking morons.

Welcome to /lit/. Enjoy your stay.

One can add 2 things to 2 things in the "real world."
One cannot physically add the number 2 to the number 2 though.

The number 2 is immaterial. It cannot be touched. How does one physically combine something that cannot be touched to something else?

>>559024
Dude, what did you expect? You started a thread by saying "lolol the bible is bullshit," and you DIDN'T want to troll Christians?