/lit/ - Literature

>>5561807

You can't really filter those out from Islam because the Quran itself is pretty much a rule book to social life. It's full of strict guidelines for things like inheritance, divorce, etc.

It's no coincidence that secularism didn't take root in the middle east, because it's not compatible with Islam.

Well one thing is certain, Muslims built some trippy ass mosques. I wish I could visit some of them while on acid.

>>5561807
>monotheism
>best
Pick one.

>>5561870
That's an interesting point. Is there much difference between the sayings of Islam and Christianity in that regard?

>>5561807

>>5561870
>secularism didn't take root in the middle east

err pre-1970 20th century middle east m8

>>5561912
>no dark ages valley
shit graphic

>>5561895

Yeah. I mean in Islam, the Quran is seen as the actual words of a singular god that has been passed to Mohammed by an angel. So unlike Christianity (esp. Catholicism) there is zero room for reforms. You never argue against the book. It's by definition blasphemy.

This singular focus on the Quran (with the exception of haddiths) is also sort of problematic because the text is not very very clear at some places, and since there is no authority to interpret the text, might makes right in that area.

A final point is that the propagation of the religion and its teachings is central to the doctrine, which explains the conflict with secularism.

>>5561912
The islamic world was in a state of somnolence for a large period but there is currently a revivial of islamic study across the world. It seems like we're on the verge of seeing another significant phase of civilisation that can be called islamic rather than islam kind of exisiting alongside modernity but not actively engaging in it.

>>5561931
>dark ages valley
but the "dark ages" were hardly worse than the previous eras of christianism

>>5561938
I really hope thay get their shit together

>>5561913

Yeah, you're right. (Though I'd maybe start it in the 50s as that's when the muslim brotherhood was conceived.)

But my point is that however you think the shift to fundamentalism happened (and I'm actually very cynical about it), it's no coincidence; the foundations for it were already there in the religion.

>>5561807
>because those were passive.
I'll need citations on that, sounds like some prime-rate bullshit.

>>5561949
>>5561969

western world could help by not fucking shit up in the islamic world. State mandated multiculturalism is actually producing some very good scholars from the western world which is is pretty ironic. However, there are people wandering in the sahara desert in places like Mauritania that you can approach and ask for a religious ruling on a problem and they can give it too you. People need to understand that all islam is fundamentalism- it's just how it has been interpreted. The islamic doctrines that the average westerner on the streets of paris or new york seems to hate does not have it's roots in the historical interpretations of islam but rather a specific school of thought that arose in saudi arabia in the 17th century that actually helped throw out ottoman and hence caliphate rule from the area. The Salaf doctrine is seen by many as a great fallacy for rejecting traditional schools of thought and is even seen my the tin foil hat types as a british empire backed, judaic thought.

>>5561870
You can't seperate culture and religion like that. One chooses between different cultural repertoires, negotiating their "muslim-ness," same goes for any other religion or cultural "identity." Important here is that others have to acknowledge their religiousness -- only then can people "successfully" constitute one specific "identity." Furthermore, it's all about interpretation, what's written is meaningless without it. You should not regard Islam as that what's literally written in the Quran.

Islam is too primitive and superstitious, I cant respect any religion that requires you to go to a specific place and run your magic laps.

Protestantism is the height of monotheism and goes hand in with the superior cultures and nations on this earth.

>>5561931

>www.strangenotions.com/gods-philosophers/

It is a myth. Get educated you mental midget and stop parroting what public school taught you.

>>5562067
ayy lmao

>>5561870
Nigga do you even Sufi?

>>5562299
yes based sufism. A man after my own heart

>>5562299
>>5562313
Uninformed Western Sufi fags are the worst.

>sufism is like totally rad bro smoke hella hashish and dance no ruuules

>>5562288
This could just as well be named map to Germanic peoples in Europe.

>>5562319
>this

although a lot of deeply religious sufis got introduced to because of their hippy tendancies and travels t oplaces like morocco

>>5562288
southern europe full of immoral scum while being deeply catholic

>>5562331
How do being Germanic, being Protestant and having high standards of living collerate? Which cause which?

>>5562367
see >>5562353

>>5562367
southern europeans are the laziest niggas alive after actual niggas

captcha used ebolic

Saudi's ruined everything.

>>5562409
I would like to add on to this to assert that Iran is the greatest country in the middle east, at the very least. :^)

>>5562419

At least they're studying Heidegger in Qom.
Don't see that happen in the Gulf, which is the STEM/economics/law spergshit haven of the region.

>>5562384
So is Southern Europe full of immoral scum because of the Catholicism? Or are they Catholic because they are immoral? Or are they immoral because they are Southern European? How does it work?

>>556244 they're basiccaly scum either way

>>5562454
But I want to know why.

>>5562469
go on a journey of discovery

>>5561807
>From a non-theological, strictly cultural point of view, is Islam the best religion out there?

No, if anything Islam has been a 14 hundred year long cult plague dramatically destroying the progress of civilization. North Africa and the Levant used to be equal to Europe before they destroyed it. The largest library in the world in India was burnt because "if it's not in the Quran, it's wrong and if it is, we already have it". Truly endless mass murder for more than 90% of their history and destruction of historical monuments robbed humanity. Hundreds of Millions of women taking as sex slaves striped of their culture, and relentless raids and control of the Mediterranean threw Europe into the Dark Ages destroying travel and progress. A philosophy of "there is no cause and effect or morality, only the will of Allah" poisons the mind, and all believers are to act exactly like Muhammad froze their culture permanently.

Islam far surpasses the invention of the atom bomb for self inflicted harm to humanity.

>>5562508
well that's not misinformed at all is it?

>>5561912
lmftfy

Eh, kinda prefer things based on Confucianism myself.

>>5562583
piss off chink

>>5561807
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g84g2KJcUV0

They reject what has been proven a thousand years before Muhammad because he didn't like it. Their "resistance" is terrible.

>>5562552
Meaningless graphs and contrived statistics and this sub-literate era's religion.

>>5561807
Are you one of those idiots who thinks the Bible is a manifesto or a rulebook?

>>5562067
>Protestantism is the height

Protestantism's theology is illogical, unhistorical, and downright stupid.

>>5562601
>>5562608
Oh I forgot, stupid polemical youtube videos spread by idiots too

>>5562367
>How do being Germanic, being Protestant and having high standards of living collerate? Which cause which?
Neither. Germanic people are big on raping and pillaging distant lands. (And, in fact, they're Protestant because Catholicism frowns down upon such a lifestyle.)

Now that the world is running out of places to rape, pillage and democratically precision-bomb, their 'high standards of living' are quickly eroding away.

does anyone know what english translation of the quran is considered to be the best? I've heard that the Arberry, Pickthall and Yusuf Ali versions are good.

>>5562621
It allows religion to get out of the way in a lot of ways, making room for prospering while still providing values and a moral compass and structure and all that. That's why it's great.

You keep Christian morals without babbling to a statue like a heathen and fucking around with rosaries and pilgrimages and magic necklaces and literally drinking Jesus blood and sharing your sins with some pedo instead of God and obeying some guy in Rome and all that. It's a minimalist Christianity, keeping the essence and doing away with decadence.

>>5562766

so, in other words, christianity for atheists

>>5562781
You could say that. OP did say "from a non-theological, strictly cultural point of view". Protestantism leads to the best cultures, as far as I'm concerned.

>>5562621
>Protestantism's theology is illogical, unhistorical, and downright stupid.
Elaborate or STFU.

>>5562508
Bill maher pls go

Islam as a religion offers absolutely no room for interpretation. Everything is the direct word of God instead of "inspired divine writing," so one can never write off the more unsavory aspects as the fault of the author.

This creates a culture where progress is impossible. The "resistance" you mention is a strength on certain occasions, but those occasions are far outweighed by the times where Muslims resist moral good.

>>5562781
Not Christianity for atheists. It's Christianity stripped of superstition and metaphysics. Many ideas you think are Christian were really adapted from pagan philosophy and absorbed into Catholicism. Moreover, the literal reading of the Bible is a modern aberration. Genesis was understood as metaphorical already in the third century CE. Read the NT, what is Christ's central message? It's what he called the Kingdom of God, which is already here, but at the same time, not here yet. It's the inauguration of a new order that is coming in the future but nevertheless its effect are already to be felt now. Christianity has nothing to do with superstition.

>>5561912
Christianity graph should have started higher (Day of Pentecost) then dipped (Catholic church and it's persecution of religious freedom) then it slowly lifted after the Catholic church was demolished. But there has been no point in time where the Christian churches progress has been higher than that of the day of Pentecost and the work of the Apostles imo.
>Only commenting on the things you feel you know about instead of talking about Islam, which you know you don't know about

>>5562781
It's agent centered Christianity

>>5562824

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calvinism#Predestination
>Reformed theologians teach that sin so affects human nature that they are unable even to exercise faith in Christ by their own will. While people are said to retain free will in that they willfully sin, they are unable to not sin because of the corruption of their nature due to original sin. To remedy this, Reformed Christians believe that God chose or predestined some people to save. This choice is believed to be unconditional and not based on any characteristic or action on the part of the person chosen.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lutheranism
>The key doctrine, or material principle, of Lutheranism is the doctrine of justification. Lutherans believe that humans are saved from their sins by God's grace alone (Sola Gratia), through faith alone (Sola Fide)
>Lutherans teach that sinners, while capable of doing works that are outwardly "good," are not capable of doing works that satisfy God's justice. Every human thought and deed is infected with sin and sinful motives. Because of this, all humanity deserves eternal damnation in hell
>Lutherans believe that individuals receive this gift of salvation through faith alone. Saving faith is the knowledge of, acceptance of, and trust in the promise of the Gospel. Even faith itself is seen as a gift of God, created in the hearts of Christians by the work of the Holy Spirit through the Word and Baptism. Faith receives the gift of salvation rather than causes salvation.

You're ether born to go to heaven and all your deeds are actually the will of god OR you're "forced" into believing in god and all later actions are the will of god and going to heaven no matter what. All of protestantism stems from these two retarded theologies which came out of nowhere 500 years ago by poorly educated men.

>>5562898
>"forced" into believing in god and all later actions are the will of god and going to heaven no matter what
You missed the whole point of Lutheranism. It's simply that you don't deserve to go to heaven, but God will let you if you show that you're willing. That's it tbh

>>5562766
>without babbling to a statue like a heathen
Catholic/orthodox don't do that
>fucking around with rosaries
Not necessary
>pilgrimages
Because traveling the world, seeing historical sites, and learning is SO terrible.
>necklaces
Better than being ashamed of your faith
>literally drinking Jesus blood
Matthew 26:26-29
While they were eating, Jesus took bread, said the blessing, broke it, and giving it to his disciples said, “Take and eat; this is my body.” Then he took a cup, gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, “Drink from it, all of you, for this is my blood of the covenant, which will be shed on behalf of many for the forgiveness of sins.
>sharing your sins with some pedo instead of God
Bottling up them in a vacuum without comment can eventually distort your view of right and wrong
>obeying some guy in Rome
Only on matters of the church.

>>5562832
If anything it's Christianity with superstition and metaphysics cranked up to 11 and the origin of ultra-literal readings of the bible.

>>5562833

You should start when the faith was in control. Constantine conversion for Christianity and the Medinans foolishly putting Muhammad in charge as a warlord

>>5561969
>Yeah, you're right. (Though I'd maybe start it in the 50s as that's when the muslim brotherhood was conceived.)

The MB was formed in the 20s largely to oppose the lingering British presence in Egypt.

>>5562649
>I've heard that the Arberry, Pickthall and Yusuf Ali versions are good.

Generally yes. Pickthall's translation shows its age more than the others.

>>5562831
>Islam as a religion offers absolutely no room for interpretation.

How retarded do you have to be to believe something like this? There's no such thing as a scripture-based religion with "no room for interpretation."

>>5561913
>err pre-1970 20th century middle east m8

Even then it never really took root. Its popularity was contingent to a very large extent upon Nasser's popularity, and that faded after 1967.

>>5562508
>North Africa and the Levant used to be equal to Europe before they destroyed it.

Every part of this sentence is bullshit.

>The largest library in the world in India was burnt

Source?

>A philosophy of "there is no cause and effect or morality, only the will of Allah" A philosophy of "there is no cause and effect or morality, only the will of Allah" poisons the mind, and all believers are to act exactly like Muhammad froze their culture permanently.

Is the first bit supposed to be a description of Ash'arism? If you actually believe that every Muslim was a nihilist-occasionalist robot incapable of acting outside of some programmed pattern of behavior, you are abysmally, irredeemably dumb. I don't understand how people like you exist. How can you be so ignorant of your own species to believe that human beings are capable of what you're describing? It would be impossible even if it was what they aspired to—and of course it was not.

>>5561807
>Not only the improvements before and after its spreading in the community of its inception is the biggest and most evident of any religion (catholicism barely changed anything at all, protestantism showed many improvements, buddhism close third)

No. The Quran has almost zero depth and could be summarized as a well written protestant treaty without the intellectual debt. God is watching you, believe some random dogma, follow the rules or you go to hell and so on and so on. The only thing that it has over protestantism, which is a useless fad in itself, is its later theology of complete surrender to God which was honestly already developed by the Jews, but in a much more subtle and intellectually mature way.

Both Islam and protestantism is the genre fiction of religion. If Islam could just dissapear little of value would be lost outside some Shi-ite theology.

>>5561807
>From a non-theological, strictly cultural point of view, is Islam the best religion out there?

I'm not sure that this question can be answered objectively. It's also a bit difficult to approach. Each of the major religions is intertwined with numerous cultures, so how do we decide what constitutes THE culture of a particular religion?

>In South America, muslims slaves were so known for insurgency that after a while they avoided muslim slaves and forced all muslims to convert to Catholicism, because those were passive.

This presents another issue. If this was indeed the case, we'd need to know more about the slaves and their motivations for rebellion before attributing their behavior entirely to their Islam. Even if the slaves themselves viewed their insurrection as a religious act, other factors could have been at play. Pinpointing motivations is tricky business.

>>5561870
this.

and

> the core doctrine is one of resistance.

No, it's one of obedience to the doctrine itself, and resistance to anything trying to create or impose anything separate from the doctrine.

>>5563158
>Source?

>The longest running university of India was the Nalanda University in Nalanda, Bihar. It was built in the 6th century B.C. by Narsimha Deva and was active up till the 13th century. Thus, the University ran without any hindrance for 700 years. It was a world wide acclaimed university of that time and students from far off countries used to come and gain knowledge here.The admission was secured on the basis of a very tough entrance exam. Knowledge was imparted on virtually all subjects including science, philosophy, medicine, warfare etc. Its fame ran not only in India but also in south-east and central Asia. Its Mathematical as well as the Astronomical department was quite renowned.In fact Nalanda was the first university in the world to have given Astronomy a separate status from Mathematics. When Hsuen Tsang visited Nalanda he was astonished to see the collection of books in the library. The books contained in the library belonged to a wide range of topics, which he had never seen before in his life.Hsuen Tsang also refers to his interaction with the gatekeeper of the library. Who he says knew far lot more than him in almost all the subjects including Medicine and Astronomy. Unfortunately many of the works of Hsuan Tsang got lost in Brahmaputra river during his return journey to China, as such our knowledge about Nalanda and its students are very limited.In 1200 A.D. Islamic zealots led by Bhaktiyar Khilji destroyed the Nalanda university completely. It is said that the library containing invaluable books, kept on burning for nearly six months. With the library all the knowledge mankind had gained in years went into the flame. What Newton discovered (Gravity) had already been discovered by the students and teachers of Nalanda. The books were thrown into the flames by persons who thought that there is no truth other than that written in Quran. And thus pushed the India into the dark age through which she is still groping to pass through.

STOP RANK ORDERING THINGS

>>5563203
>No. The Quran has almost zero depth and could be summarized as a well written protestant treaty without the intellectual debt. God is watching you, believe some random dogma, follow the rules or you go to hell and so on and so on.

I don't think that the book's lack of resonance with you points to some deficiency on its part. Look at the diversity of traditions that identify it as their source and inspiration: these testify to its enormous, unceasing influence and fecundity. In the face of this, subjective qualities like depth are kind of irrelevant, don't you think?

> is its later theology of complete surrender to God which was honestly already developed by the Jews, but in a much more subtle and intellectually mature way.

What does this refer to

>Both Islam and protestantism is the genre fiction of religion. If Islam could just dissapear little of value would be lost outside some Shi-ite theology.

Do you think you know enough about the religion to appraise it like this?

>>5561807
Misogyny and violent homophobia are modern aspects of reactionary fundamentalist islam/ism/. Not to say that women or gays weren't necessarily marginalized by scoiety, but the Western condemnation of Islam's "barbarous treatment of women and gays" didn't exist then, nor does it really exist now. Some of Islam's most famous poets wrote quite freely about gay love (see: Mahmud of Ghazni, not a poet but the subject of numerous poems about homosexual love) and women have held businesses, offices, academic positions, etc., since the first Muslim ever, Khadijah. Islamic civilization was liberal before there was a word for it.

>>5561870
>It's no coincidence that secularism didn't take root in the middle east

>1st post is yet another trip-fag that has absolutely no idea what it's talking about

>>5563307

Please name your source.

The Nalanda monastery never had the 'largest library in the world.'

>>5563373
>Do you think you know enough about the religion to appraise it like this?

No, my reply was pretty stupid.

>What does this refer to

Many passages from the Old Testament.

I've asked people this before, in what aspect does the Quran offer anything new from a religious standpoint outside a caricature of existing views? And unfortunately the least humane and wise views. Like the fear of God for example.

>>5563373
>I don't think that the book's lack of resonance with you points to some deficiency on its part

You could literally say that about any book.

>Look at the diversity of traditions that identify it as their source and inspiration: these testify to its enormous, unceasing influence and fecundity. In the face of this, subjective qualities like depth are kind of irrelevant, don't you think?

Yes, just like the twilight and harry potter novels...

>>5563430
>I've asked people this before, in what aspect does the Quran offer anything new from a religious standpoint outside a caricature of existing views?
It's a strange question because the Qur'an itself isn't thought of as being "new from a religious standpoint". That's in fact the point: the Qur'an is a message like that of what was shared by olden prophets and messengers, but it is the final of these messages, sent to Abrahams other sons (as a bridge between Abraham's descendents on the rest of mankind and jinn), and is properly recorded without corruption, whereas the messages of the prophets (including Christ and all those forgotten and unnamed) passed through oral tradition and were built on through generations. What's most interesting about the Qur'an is its devotion to minimalism and how it can occupy the middle way. Between Judaism and Christianity, and within Judaism and within Christianity, there are dichotomies (the tribes and the nations; the saved and the unsaved; the orthodox and the unorthodox, etc.), but there are no real dichotomies within Islam, because there is no god but the One God and there is only He. On the Jews, the Qur'an affirms they were a chosen people but they were never His only children; on Christians, the Qur'an says they are wrong to say Christ is God, but if they love the One God and follow Christ's message they are permitted this error; on the law, the Qur'an affirms it must be honored and carried out, but that this means only under correct conditions, with correct evidence, without bias or deference to one party, and that even when the law prescribes punishment God prefers and rewards that man choose softer judgments or forgiveness; on Mankind and the world, the Qur'an affirms that mankind fails and fails again, but that creation was made for His and its own sakes, that He loves them, and has not forsaken them in any time or place (except when their sins have judged them and they have been placed in the Fire to be purified). None of this is -new-, rather it's something of a critique and simplified synthesis. What are the five pillars of Islam? Proclamation of a creed, charity (if possible), pilgrimage (if possible), prayer, and fasting: the five universally known rituals of religious practice, without extremes (except in the creed's declaration of tawhid). What is Islam's ultimate claim? That the stars, the elements, the animals, all things are Muslims (they submit to Him) with their own shariat, that the righteous of old, wherever they were, may not have followed the exact same action of religious ritual (eg: the salat or pilgrimage to the Ka'aba) but that by their deeds and faith they were Muslims.

>>5563430
>I've asked people this before, in what aspect does the Quran offer anything new from a religious standpoint

Deliberately little. The Qur'an views itself as the vehicle for a primordial religion rather than a new one. Its most essential religious teachings are familiar by design: the religion of one God was the religion of Adam, Abraham, Moses, etc., but most of you have bastardized it or abandoned it altogether, so here's Muhammad with one final iteration of its message to guide everyone back to the right path.

So it sets itself apart from previous revelations not in its essentials teachings but in its details. The reasons for this are fairly obvious and have to do with the circumstances of how it came to us—relatively rapidly through a single person during a tumultuous period.

So if we believe that religious scriptures possess merit in proportion to the originality of their basic teachings, we probably won't think highly of the Qur'an. But given the Qur'an's self-stated purpose, we should be aware that its teachings are very deliberately 'conventional,' if that makes sense.

>>5563676
>>5563677

I see that someone beat me to this answer in the long-ass time it took me to write my post.

>>5563663
>You could literally say that about any book.

But we're talking about a particular book.

>Yes, just like the twilight and harry potter novels...

Ah, yes, who could fail to be impressed by the many ancient traditions of mysticism, art, law, and philosophy centered on these enduring classics?

>>5563718
>Ah, yes, who could fail to be impressed by the many ancient traditions of mysticism, art, law, and philosophy centered on these enduring classics?

Yes, the Iliad, Odyssey, and Aeneid's impact on humanity can never truly be measured. Clearly the work of the Gods.

>>5563763

wut r u implying

I'm not making any arguments about divine revelation or whether Islam is true or whatever.

>>5563688
It's okay anon, took me a while to write mine too since I got interrupted by someone at the end and had to think about. We were destined to have samemind.