/lit/ - Literature

Because he was mentally ill.

Marketing

He knew that he could never live up to Pynchon.

>>5537107
>suicide implies mental illness
Dear me, look at the time; is it 1673 already? Sure is progressive anti-euthanasia Christian bigotry in here.

>>5537103
>implying he actually did it

>>5537118
>implying he didn't

>>5537117
this

To control the beast, perhaps - perhaps for fear that the money would've made him into a fraud.

>>5537118
>>5537125
He's not dead. He's now writing under the moniker of John Green.

>>5537103
read:
Every Love Story Is a Ghost Story
Although of Course You End Up Becoming Yourself

>>5537117
wallace wasn't *mentally* ill, but he had a severe depression, iirc he even underwent electro-convulsive therapy

>>5537131
The NWO has done this sort of thing before

>>5537127
Someone had a quote there recently from DFW about there having been claw marks left on everything he touched? That, basically. It's not exactly uncommon behaviour. I'm fairly sure Heath Ledger killed himself to control the Joker, for example, though that's very slightly removed from DFW's circumstances.

>>5537139
J.K. Rowling's another moralist who seems to be incredibly cautious about the money her series generated.

>>5537127
>>5537139
>>5537150
Perhaps he committed suicide in an ultimate act of selflessness, basically.

>>5537159
Though you might still say it was with respect to some obscure god, I suppose. Blah.

>>5537159
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4UQDKEHSeWQ

>>5537117
Ah, yes, depression sure is healthy.

>>5537168
Oh, there you go.

>>5537174
I bet you also give your kids Ritalin to combat their mental disorder known as ADHD.

>>5537168
Holy fuck, that was depressing.

>>5537137
>>5537197

Depression is a mental illness with clearly demonstrable effects in the brain you fucking idiots.

>>5537197
Read a fucking book.

>>5537197
brb drinking a nice glass of depression

>>5537219
"Mental illness" is a term which obscures the rational induction of pretty much all "mental illness". Read some Thomas Szasz. It is comfortable to be able to distance yourself from societal wrongdoers by proclaiming them "psychopaths", "insane," etc.

>>5537233
>reading books

>>5537244
yes, but depression is actually real dumbass

>>5537244
You're really stupid. Stop undermining an illness - one which sufferers are quite happy to have put on them as opposed to some kind of asinine proclamation by society

>>5537244
Oh so it was actually a semantic quarrel you were after.
At least the other way was slightly comical.

'Depression' is merely part of the human condition. Prove me wrong twerps.

>>5537258
it doesn't affect critical thinking, doesn't create any delusion, it affects emotions and will, it shouldn't be mixed with such illnesses as schizophrenia etc

>>5537258
Yeah, but that wasn't the absolute cause of his suicide, dumbass. It's not some disease you just avoid, instead Wallace quite literally died of a tortured, good soul.

>>5537258
>>5537261
>>5537264
Read: >>5537272

>>5537244

Clearly in many instances that is true.

Not in the instance of depression though, which clearly has biochemical reasons behind it.

>>5537272
he came off of antidepressents and went back on. They didnt work again. Then he killed himself.

>>5537288
You don't seem to realise that we rationally manufacture our emotions - have you not read Lolita where Humbert Humbert lusts after little girls for the denial of death which lay in it for him? Emotion is programmed - it's you pulling the switches in your brain; it's rationality.
>>5537271
Schizophrenia is largely rationally induced too I imagine. I've seen rationally induced dementia anyway.

>>5537289
Your conception of how the mind works is small.

>>5537311
your knowledge of dfw is small. This is very well documented.

>>5537313
>hur brain goes:
>anti-depressents
>uh oh! anti-depressents no work!
>ok i die
>simple
Wrong.

>>5537311
I guess an anon on 4chan proved all those doctors wrong, really great job

>>5537311
Except that's literally what happened, read any biography of him.

>>5537304
>we rationally manufacture our emotions
k, i've been baited. 6/10, replied twice.

>>5537322
uh, if he could not treat his depression its generally regarded to be a pretty big factor in suicide.

People that have encountered depression arguing with people that haven't

Great valuable discussion

>>5537323
Actually, I'm in agreement with the doctors, anon. Just not the general public of retards.

>>5537271
>it doesn't affect critical thinking, doesn't create any delusion
you have never been depressed, have you

why do privileged white women even post on my /lit/

>>5537328
You're retarded.
>>5537325
And I'm not saying it's not what happened; I'm just not looking at its happening like a simpleton.
>>5537329
Psychotherapy must always be carried out along with administering drugs, because the brain has to be right to receive them. Some people have taken happy drugs and manufactured suicide with them. Fuck, the reason we see God when we take drugs, is because we want to. Drugs are secondary to the soul.

>>5537355
>Drugs are secondary to the soul.
ok. Im done.

>>5537271
As someone who suffers from depression, yes it does. You can go through phases of complete disconnection with the reality of things where you're utterly convinced that there's no-one and nothing out there for you and that you're the most worthless creature in existence; which then leads to criticising yourself for self-pitying. It affects everything from your personality to your motor skills on the worst of days.

>>5537361
And you're retarded. Do go away.

Simply put, there isn't a single fucking thing irrational about human action, and to put suicide down to "depression" is *the* fucking understatement.

>>5537372
yeah, my auras all out of whack. Pieces like me really get a number on thier souls getting into arguments in october

>>5537386
But it does leave selfish, inhumane people with just a condition to avoid. Granted.

Question: did DFW ever write something like 'the person who commits suicide has died a million times before their heart finally stops beating'? I can't remember whether I came up with it or not, I just found it in a chapter of my novel I wrote months ago.

>>5537391
#rekt

>>5537402
Sperg less, retard.

>>5537408
>retard
>literally believes in a soul

>>5537366

i think you misunderstand what delusion is
it's pretty obvious that your emotions affect your thoughts but you don't hold some idea which is not prone to criticism at all (or something like that, your personality isn't split, you don't have hallucinations etc) like those who are really mentally ill do

i dunno how in your country, where i live people with depression are treated by psychotherapists while those with something more serious by psychiatrists

>>5537424
>doesn't get it
>retard sperg over smartness/power/conception of DFW's suicide because he's got nothing else
I don't necessarily attach any spiritualism to my saying "soul," but use it to refer to the spark of consciousness which is at our core. Jesus, people are awful.

>>5537434
you are the one making broad generalizations about dfw's suicide.

As people have noted above, the fact that his anti depressents did not work was absolutely critical. The link between untreated depression and suicide could not be more clear.

You said "soul" after spending the entire thread arguing against very basic science. I made my assumption about what kind of beliefs you had.

>>5537442
>sill doesn't get it

>>5537425

Depression can be very serious. It can lead to hospitalization. It can lead to a person becoming catatonic.

>>5537452
i suppose
it may be a sign of another, more serious, illnesses though
for instance schizophrenics are often depressive

does anyone have a rec for a DFW essay collection?

I want to read his work, but I'm just not going to read IJ right now and there seem to be many different collections of his essays

>>5537474
that's irrilevant though, why can't you just admit that you were wrong

>>5537513
but where? i merely said that depression per se doesn't destroy your cognitive ability. if anything people with dysthymia are often more intellectual than normal people

>>5537425
Which country are you in?

>>5537114
Am I bad person if I laugh at DFW being so mad if anyone called him on him Pynchon cribbing in Broom

He cried over a pos nyt review by Michiko Kakutani bc she called him on Pynchon and told people he had never read him when of course he had. Poor davids

>>5537400
Yeah,it was in Infinite Jest I think.

I had a girlfriend once who stopped doing all of her schoolwork and failed out of almost every class she took. She said to me that it was because of depression, and that depression was "the bane of her existence" and now that she went to her therapist who told her she was depressed, she went from battling being an unmotivated whining child to "battling depression" and everything she did was suddenly justified in her eyes.

Listen, I promise if I went to someone and told them about me I would be diagnosed with depression, but that's bullshit. It isn't imbalanced chemicals in your brain, it isn't its own thing. It's how you think, it's how you interpret the world around you. It's a part of who you are, and rather than try to fix it with prescription drugs and therapy sessions, telling yourself that instead of dealing with how shitty life is, you're dealing with some separate monster named Depression, you should examine things, think more, try to actually fix any problems you have with the way things are (if you even want to, of course).

There is a lot of bullshit in this thread. You're not any more depressed than people who aren't diagnosed, you get no justification by going to a doctor. If someone kills themselves, like DFW did, it was because that was what they needed to do, or because they couldn't see any other option, or maybe they just fucking wanted to. It's their life. They're not selfish. They're not stupid. I have no right to say anything about it, because who knows what they were thinking.

Go ahead and make a facebook status update saying "but I really have depression" in response to this if you have to, but leave me and anyone else who wants you to the fuck alone. I don't feel bad for people who are battling depression, I don't care. Now, I'm totally open to talking to someone whose sister/brother/mother/father/best friend died, someone who feels lost and hopeless, someone who is lonely, someone who feels extremely unfulfilled. Literally any reason other "I have depression." Those people need to grow up.

>>5537565
Epic speech m8 you sure proved those professionals wrong!

>>5537500

Start with his short story 'Good Old Neon'. His essays can wait.

>>5537545
>He cried over a pos nyt review by Michiko Kakutani
source?

>>5537581
that stings

>>5537565
TL;DR

>>5537565
depression != feeling sad

>>5537565

>thinks depression started just now with the postmodernist tumblr stuff and wasn't present in all the human history

>>5537565
EPIK BLOG POST MANG

>>5537615
from the bio
"Wallace told a friend he hid in his room for two days and cried after reading yet another paragraph devoted to parallels between his first book and Pynchon's most popular novel."
oh god I'm laughing rereading it sorry DFW I love u

>>5537669
>thinking delusions being old makes them less retarded
May I interest you in a product of ours called "religion", Sir? I think it might be right up your alley.

>>5537565
i suppose you simply don't know what apathy (one of the symptoms of depression, which your gf probably had) is. imagine you want to do something, even pleasant, even what you like, but which needs some effort, for instance to walk by seashore if you live near the sea, to meet with friends, even to go and buy ice cream, but you don't have the will to do it. imagine you persuade yourself for hours to go to take a shower and barely have the will to do even that. it's already bad but when it comes to things unpleasant but needful it may be a catastrophe. and on top of that since it undermines the very will of yours it's very hard to fight with... oh, and that's usually not a single symptom too

>>5537686
>>5537565
I haven't seen trolling on this level since Stirner gained popularity

Just read "Good Old Neon", I think it's autobiograhical. In the story, the protagonist can't stop doing things for the sole reasons of impressing people, even the shrink he visits, he tries to outsmart him and show him how introspective he is and what not.

DFW hints about this in a lot of his interviews, where he gives bad examples of behaviour that are usually against narcissism/self-centerdedness. I think his first book was just written for the sole purpose to impress people ie. "look at me xdd i read all this philosophy am so smart xdd". Also, "New Sincerity"? The clues are everywhere.

Also, look at this:
http://www.theawl.com/2011/04/inside-david-foster-wallaces-private-self-help-library

Basically, he had mommy issues. He never felt good enough for mommy and the people around him despite being a prodigy.

>>5537696
>being weak-willed
I bet by now there's a medical term for every single way one can remotely manage to be a shitty human.

>>5537565
I was friends with this girl who was taking anti-depression meds and had depression and just sat around all day smoking weed and drinking champagne. When I tried to ask her about any issues she had she just said it was depression and never gave me the impression that she was doing anything to deal with it other than taking pills. She didn't associate the fact that she smoked weed literally all day and drank to get fucked up every night with what she was going through. In her mind, depression was separate from the rest of what she was doing, and what she did was separate from what she was going through.
I've often felt depressed. I think I probably am, or am bipolar or something. I've had friends describe depression to me as not feeling anything a lot of the time. I now think that 'not feeling anything' in terms of emotions is the way humans normally are, unless we're stimulated to feel something, which we have no control over. I don't think it's rational to expect constant pleasure or constant emotional fulfillment. I don't think it's rational to consciously divorce your actions from your mental state. I don't think ADHD exists. I think the medical industry is a form of organized crime and should be reformed. I think it's one of the great tragedies of our age that people can blame depression for an inability to reflect on their own thoughts and actions. If you have to kill yourself, you should kill yourself. There's no purpose to life beyond what you give it, and if your life's purpose is inaction and a rejection of agency, whether conscious or unconscious, situationally forced on you or willingly accepted, well, we all die anyway. Dying on your own terms is the most responsible thing someone who rejects their own responsibility can do.

>>5537705
All this and there's also the theory/fact that he was so stuck on the Pale King and not having written another novel since IJ that that made a lot of things even worse.

>>5537244
>>5537717
these people are prob not sincere, but it's always annoying to see people casually name drop szaz as though he's any sort of respectable source
phram and a lot of aspects of the mental health system are fucked up but saying mental illnesses are just made up is so historically and medically laughable

>>5537686

>not even baited

>>5537565

>neuroscientists are wrong because my personal experiences clash with their data

Kill yourself you worthless imbecile.

>>5537743
Depression may be real, but using it as an excuse for being an inconsiderate human being instead of owning up to the fact that you do what you do is pathetic. I've observed this behavior in people I've known. The girl in question was one of the least sensitive and most self-centered people I've ever been friends with.

>>5537717
>think I probably am, or am bipolar or something
top kek. if you were bipolar, you would fucking KNOW it.

>>5537565
>>5537717
aw shit, you guys, check it out. not just one, but two personal anecdotes. looks like depression isn't real after all.

>>5537767
um depression doesn't magically strike only good kind hearted people, sorry a girl wasn't nice?
maybe those people are just assholes, but having depression can also contribute to not being able to consider the feelings of others because you can't think clearly etc a lot of other things
maybe read "The Depressed Girl" by babyboy DFW for more on this

>>5537751
>facts don't agree with theory
>theory must be right

>>5537835
the fuck are you talking about? the only apparent facts in your story are:
1. you had a girlfriend (with a seemingly shitty personality)
2. a therapist told her she was depressed

so how do either of these things invalidate anything about contemporary theories regarding mental illness?

>>5537835

>thinks that an individual particular experience is a fact, and not a whole filtered by his perception, made of little facts.

>>5537855
>>5537857
>resorting to "can't know nothin"

>>5537880

>doesn't even understand "cant know nuffin"

>>5537880
okay, you're either a troll, or retarded. either way, i'm out.

>>5537808
Was I implying depression can't happen to shitty humans? She had noticeable issues (alcoholism, the closest thig to a marijuana addiction I've ever seen) she wasn't dealing with and refused to even acknowledge as issues. I directly addressed them multiple times in the hope that she would maybe accept that she wasn't living as healthily as she thought she was and she ignored my observations that she smoked and drank more than most people do. I'd say the same things if she had been a boy. She was inconsiderate and unable to conceive of herself doing something wrong. Was her depression unrelated to that? I doubt it, since alcoholism and depression accompany each other a lot, from what I've heard.
I'm also sorry a girl treated me badly, but I'm more sorry that she treats herself even worse than she treated me and doesn't even realize it.

>>5537565
This is not incompatible with the idea that depression is purely a neurological/neurochemical problem. Your thoughts and emotions are as much a product of your material brain as your depression. It is not science denial to think that you can conquer your depression by changing the way you think.

>>5537743
Is it annoying or is it laughable? Read the rest of the posts, retard.

>>5537769
How? By comparing it with my other experiences of bipolarity? I've never been to a psychiatrist so claiming to know I have bipolar disorder would be premature on my part.

>>5537907
i doubt you can even claim something like that when you didn't 'conquer' depression that way yourself and it seems you barely realize how it feels too

>>5537918
both

>>5537767
>hurr my gf may have been depressed but she was not nice
You're a retard and sperged over nothing. That retarded lie of "the selfishness of suicide" probably.

>>5537891
>>5537893
>understands Kant better than me
>must be a troll

>>5537267
Vicky?

>>5537932
Interesting that, right?

>>5537922
if you have all the symptoms then no, thinking you're bipolar isn't premature but either way maybe try to see someone?

>>5537930
I'm not going to engage on the condescending semantics, but I will concede both points because I do not think there is merit it (even and especially my own) self-diagnosis. But I am not arguing from my own experience, I am arguing from the spectacular success rate of non-psychiatric, non-medical approaches to depression treatment like CBT.

>>5537974
>non-psychiatric, non-medical approaches
>like CBT

is it trolling and i'm the slowest person in this thread to recognize it?

>>5537991
psychiatric was the wrong word, i'm thinking about the dichotomy between psychiatrists and therapists. CBT does not involve antidepressants or any other medication is my point.

>>5537267
I'm not depressed and i'm a human

>>5537565
THE BANE OF HER EXISTENCE?

>>5537945
When I told a doctor I thought I might be depressed or bipolar or something, she told me that as long as I have a support system I'll be fine and that I shouldn't be worried. I lost a lot of faith in the system that day.
I also don't want to be put on antidepressants and pretend that's a solution. I'm trying to be proactive in how I live my life instead of letting a medical condition I may or may not have define me.
>>5537938
1) She wasn't my girlfriend.
2) She was not only not nice, but unable to conceive of the harm she was doing to herself.
Like I said, she had all the symptoms of alcoholism and smoked weed all day every day while taking depression meds and going to a psychiatrist every other week. Whether or not she was nice, she had issues aside from depression that she didn't acknowledge or try to deal with. Whether or not that was because she was caught in the inertia of depression, it was still the way she was acting, and she used depression as an excuse.

>>5538100
you don't have to take any meds if you don't want to (people w/ bipolar usually get prescribed different medications than people with depression, anti-depressants can actually make manic symptoms worse if there's a misdiagnosis) just saying you can get a therapist and not take meds if that's something you think you need- a lot of doctors suck but there are also a lot who can help!

>>5537244

actually was reading szasz today

I agree, mental illnesses are not illnesses in the mental sense;

they are caused by external and internal physiological circumstances

depression does not exist

>>5538118
If I go through another depressive episode in the near future (I probably will) I might go to a therapist. It's never been something I've wanted to do.

>>5538138
Mental states all arise from external and internal physical circumstances. Of course depression doesn't exist as a distinctive entity. Psychological language is no different from religious language.

>>5537679
awww david!

>>5538138
>>5538145

szaz is a cartesian hack, maybe read things by psychologits, doctors, and scientists who didn't stop practicing in the 60s

>>5537538
back2womenstudies

>>5537565

Hey, I hear you man.

>>5538231
I've never read Szasz but I've taken classes about the philosophy of mind and I'm familiar with numerous theories of mind.
Mental states emerge from physical circumstances and have no substance in and of themselves. Depression is a mental state. Therefore, depression has no substance in and of itself.

>>5538387
ummhuhuuh i don't think philosophers were who i mentioned as worth listening to wrt modern psychology and neurology

>>5538387
>>5538660
(because they aren't)

>>5538660
Why do you start your posts with inanities like "ummhmhumhuuum?"
Why is the grammatical structure of all of your posts so fucked up?
I'm talking about mental states, of which depression is one.

>>5537272
>Wallace
>good soul

You might want to take a look at how he treated his relatives.

>>5538679
I'm expressing myself. My reaction to reading your post was ummhuhuuh because it was dumb.

The idiot doctor took him off his meds when he was doing well. Anybody who has had major depressive disorder knows that is biggest mistake you can ever make. And the chances of the response resuming after you stop is slim.

Think depression is a joke? Imagine the author of one of the most acclaimed novels of our time, getting ARMLOADS of pussy wherever he goes, feeling like a worthless POS and killing themselves to end the pain

>>5538697
Why was it dumb?

>>5537538
if only this retarded tripfag had climbed into a noose instead of DFW, /lit/ would be a little less shitty

>>5538690
sauce?

>>5537197
>>5537117
>>5537126
>>5537244

>>5538679
>"ummhmhumhuuum?"
the two posts above yours are (at least an obvious, if not laugh-out-loud funny, attempt at, or rather attempt at being evocative of) a DFW pastiche

>>5538709
Because I was saying that Szaz and what he was critiquing in psychology has very little relation to what's known/studied/practiced today. You bringing up your philosophy class in response doesn't engage with what I was saying in a way I consider serious.

>>5537714
Actually a good treatment for weak-willed people would be the fucking discovery of the century.

>>5538741
I haven't read Szasz. I was saying that I've read things by more recent psychologists that lead me to believe that depression, as a mental state, does not and cannot exist in and of itself. It's an emergent property, not a distinct entity.

>>5538729
it wasn't on purpose except wrt
>>5538755
I don't know what any of those words mean, but I balk at attempts to make a clear distinction between physical and mental states which is I think what you were getting at?

>>5538772
There is no distinction. That's exactly what I'm saying.

>>5538779
okay cool, we can be bros

People need to stop putting him on a pedestal.

>>5538782
word lol

>>5537565
I agree with this to a great extent and I'm chronically depressed and on the point of suicide myself.

I don't entirely agree with you that it has no neurological or neurochemical basis. I think some people are probably just a little more fucked than others. While there's also lots of wiggle room for pessimism or a shitty outlook to psychosomatically create depressive states, in general, some people might simply be physiologically inclined toward depression. Or they can't help having 'grandfathered in' a pessimistic/shitty outlook from a lousy childhood, and it's very difficult to extricate themselves from it when it's all they've ever known.

BUT I do substantially agree with the viewpoint that diagnosing ~DEPRESSION~ as a boogeyman is a bad idea. It validates all the people who really are just whiny pussies, and it traps people who aren't whiny pussies but who would have 'pulled themselves up by their own bootstraps' eventually in a self-defeating outlook.

I have tried explaining this possibility to my depressed friends. Like, maybe you're actually depressed, but it would have been better in the long run for you not to have known this, because you would dug deep inside yourself and found a way to scale that fucking wall and beat the thing, whereas now you're just resigned to medicating forever, resigned to seeing yourself as tragically handicapped forever.

I refuse to take meds because of what happened to DFW and other people with similar experiences. You go on them, they sorta work but just make your life worse in other ways, then you go off them and shit is ten times worse than before. So you either go back on them and feel dependent on a shitty drug that doesn't even work any better than your initial depressed state did, and which has the additional downside of being annoying in novel ways, or you kill yourself. Fuck that.

When I started to regularly read books, my depression has gone away, seriously. Whole boredom from excess of media has gone, too.

Up until then, I didn't consider myself succumbing to the apathy and boredom. I often found myself thinking the reason why the hell I am in the lows, what are the reasons of these feelings I am experiencing now, which I was sure were better in the past. It was like ill mood from out of nowhere. So I just closed my eyes and waited - maybe it will go away? Many such mood swings.

With books it's different. It's always engaging and stimulating to read books. But I still do get these weird feelings, unlike my felt depression. Something along the lines of alienation with superscript question mark over everything.

>>5537565
Why are you so fucking sure you're smarter than people who devote their lives to studying neuroscience and psychology? It is entirely believable that the girl you knew did not have clinical depression. It is also possible she did have depression, but was a shitty person and used it as an excuse to do whatever she wanted. Your comments about depression make it obvious you haven't studied even the basics about the thing you're saying is bullshit.

>rather than try to fix it with prescription drugs and therapy sessions, telling yourself that instead of dealing with how shitty life is, you're dealing with some separate monster named Depression, you should examine things, think more, try to actually fix any problems you have with the way things are (if you even want to, of course).

What you're suggesting in place of getting treated for depression is exactly how people get treated for depression.

You don't know what you're talking about. Read a fucking book about what you're dismissing, and if you have any critique's then, feel free to come and discuss it here.

>>5538785
something something kick the pedestral, fucking hell make your own joke I'm tired

>>5537939
good one

>>5538822
When you've spent time working with
>people who devote their lives to
something or other, you find out they can be wrong, sometimes even to the point of having collectively wanked themselves into an imaginary corner.

>>5537565
>It isn't imbalanced chemicals in your brain, it isn't its own thing. It's how you think, it's how you interpret the world around you. It's a part of who you are, and rather than try to fix it with prescription drugs and therapy sessions, telling yourself that instead of dealing with how shitty life is, you're dealing with some separate monster named Depression, you should examine things, think more, try to actually fix any problems you have with the way things are (if you even want to, of course).

get a load of this witch doctor

did you get your degree from Louisiana Bayouniversity?

>>5538387
Your argument is not sound.

>Mental states emerge from physical circumstances
Pinpoint, demonstrate, or give an explanatory theory of how the physical *causes* the mental to emerge.

>>5538145
>Psychological language is no different from religious language.
Except that psychological predicates are literally palpable in contrast to religious language. Until psychological properties, consciousness included, are sufficiently demonstrated and thoroughly explained as the products of the physical, you're talking hot air, bub.

Check my 5

>>5538859

I finihed today IJ and I read before The Pale King. What a tardo lol, why did he kill himself? While I'm loving so far Infinite Memest, The Pale King caught DFW at his best. The character build-up is way superior on TPK, and it shows how Wallace perfected or at least improved vastly something that makes him unique and it is his sharp perception of events and thoughts that go unnoticed for everybody. I'm sure TPK is less than half of what it was supposed to be and I'm sure the direction was similar of that on Infinite Jest. The way he developed boredom and depression and the tips of humor are magnificent on TPK.

He killed himself before finishing what could have been a fantastic study/joke of tedium and sadness.

What a shame. I'd bet $10000 on the Pale Kig being his Magnum Opus.

>>5538850
are you trying to say that modern medicine is collectively wrong about depression?

It's funny how all the people who go "DEPRESSION is a legitimate medical illness and a serious psychiatric disorder if u disagree ur stupid because neuroscientists have proven it and they have PhDs and it's science you can't deny science you scientismic scum go back 2 reddit" are not themselves scientists, are not scientifically literate, and have not read any of the scientific literature about depression. "It's a chemical imbalance" is the biggest cop-out there is, akin to the political "we need more jobs." It's the same people who will spring at the chance to call someone racist, christian, conservative, etc. to make themselves fit in with the pro-science 2cool4me liberals.

>>5538785
>>5538838
He already kicked his own pedestral, there you go

>>5538869
Not that guy, but to play devil's advocate here, it's not exactly impossible for giant institutions, especially those benefiting from something as lucrative as the pharmaceutics industry, to become runaway self-perpetuating cults.

There is plenty of criticism of the recent DSM for overdiagnosing the fuck out of everything.

>>5538868
>I finihed today IJ and I read before The Pale King
>While I'm loving so far Infinite Memest
take a lap

>>5538882
>>5538850
That's true. I'm not saying because a scientific concept is currently accepted it should be treated as undeniable truth. A good researcher actively challenges what he's reading and expects errors. So if you have done the research, and have a problem with the studies, with the collected data, or with the conclusions drawn from those things, please speak up and try to bring the flaws to light. But thinking you are in a position to make any judgments about a complex physiological issues because you are capable of critical thinking and have had some personal anecdotes is obviously wrong. Not to say that you shouldn't have an opinion or discuss it, but being this >>5537565 obnoxious and condescending when you clearly have no experience with the field you're dismissing is ridiculous.

>>5538869
Historically scientists have been collectively wrong about many, many things. Blindly accepting what is currently believed without an actual understanding is the same ignorance as dismissing it.

>>5538878
Why do leftists get so antsy when you suggest that maybe the phenomenon of depression shouldn't be categorized as a medical illness? Because depression always manifests as a form of weakness. The depressed person is seen as weak and pathetic, an object of pity. Surely it's not the person's fault! Surely there's nothing the person can do! The depressed person is totally powerless at the hand of Depression... It bothers the leftist that some people are naturally weaker and inferior to others. The leftist, to insist that everyone is equal, must attribute "depression" to an illness rather than a personal defect. It's disgusting. Weak people should not be sheltered in lies. Depressed people should be scorned and mocked, not pitied. I should make note that the type of depressed person I'm referring to here is the DFW-type. The type that doesn't bother with all the bullshit drama "I'm depressed because my therapist said so boo hoo i want to kill myself because i'm depressed waaaaah can't do my homework", the type that is just apathetic, anhedonic, and suicidal -- that type of person is a Hero. The genuinely anhedonic & suicidal person is as close as you can get to "enlightened" and should be respected.

>>5538912
holy fuck i hope this is b8 m8

really, are you 13?

>>5537565
This is how I've thought for most of my life.
I've always kind of toughed it out, like a cold.
I don't know if this has always worked.

>>5538878
>people who believe depression is a legit medical illness are not themselves scientists, are not scientifically literate, and have not read any of the scientific literature about depression

how can one man project so hard

>>5537565
I do believe that there are depressed people, but man, I fucking agree on some parts.

I hate this whole culture surrounding mental illnesses we have. Some whiny kid goes to a Psychologist for an hour or two and comes out with a diagnoses.

Then they get these pills pushed on them by quacks, fucking up their brains chemically, and you know the worst part about it? They have to tell everyone. "Oh yeah I have depression and anxiety AND PTSD!"

Like, what the fuck? When did this become something to be proud of? It makes me sick the way they wear their mental illnesses like special badges. I think it's wrong, I hate what the medical industry is perpetuating in our society.

Everyone wants to be special and depressed and have anxiety for some fucking reason and it makes me sick

>>5538912
>Why do leftists get so antsy when you suggest that maybe the phenomenon of cancer shouldn't be categorized as a medical illness? Because cancer always manifests as a form of weakness. The cancerous person is seen as weak and pathetic, an object of pity. Surely it's not the person's fault! Surely there's nothing the person can do! The cancerous person is totally powerless at the hand of Cancer... It bothers the leftist that some people are naturally weaker and inferior to others. The leftist, to insist that everyone is equal, must attribute "cancer" to an illness rather than a personal defect. It's disgusting. Weak people should not be sheltered in lies. Cancerous people should be scorned and mocked, not pitied.

>>5537705
Jesus fucking christ, that sounds exactly like me

>>5538713
>http://dailysophist.com/stories/416-what-s-love-got-to-do-with-anything-dfw-biographer-d-t-max-speaks-on-campus

You might feel like dismissing the site, but the infos are taken for an acclaimed biography of DFW (every love story is a ghost story).

Wait until you get to the part about "audience pussy" (that one always gets me).

>>5539016
So black people are like cancer? That's actually pretty apt summation.

>>5538963
Generally this works until you get ebola.

>>5539157
Humans are much cancer-like, generally speaking.

Feels good being on the cancerous branch of the biological tree. We destroy species and don't afraid of anything.

/lit/ knows shit all about science and their godhead DFW? What a surprise.

Franzen wrote an article about him dealing with DFW's death. He chalks it up to, of course, severe depression (which is most definitely a mental illness you psychotic weirdos), but hardly from "a final act of selflessness." Quite the opposite, Franzen posits that he (that is, Dave) wanted to cement himself as one of the literary elite, many of whom end up offing themselves.

>>5539180
Best AND easiest way to complete the Pale King

>>5539180
I remember someone on here saying dfw wanked himself to death. Truly a final act of compassion.

>>5538861
Would you rather I submit some kind of dualism for your approval, or what? By 'emerge' I only mean that things that happen in the brain and nervous system are the cause of mental states. Whatever the mechanism is, it is physical. I'm not a neuroscientist and I haven't studied the brain extensively, but it seems to me unreasonable based on our current understanding of the universe to assume that the mind is anything other than physically caused.
>. Until psychological properties, consciousness included, are sufficiently demonstrated and thoroughly explained as the products of the physical, you're talking hot air, bub.
Is a Cartesian dualist talking something other than hot air just because consciousness hasn't been demonstrated to be a product of the physical?

>>5537565
I didn't know /lit/ was this filled with depressed autists. You really got them going.

weed was too dank

>>5540384
>I didn't know /lit/ was this filled with depressed autists.

Welcome to /lit/! Hope you enjoy your time here.

>>5537103
genetics

DFW killed himself because of the same reason the feet of that guy in Brave New World started moving like a compass.

>>5540568
Well I won't fit in. Father is an alcoholic, older brother committed suicide after being released from an institute, caused my mother to become shut-off, 24 and still leaving at home a kissless virgin with little future.
I still feel happy as a clam, why let life beat you down. I reckon I'd still be ok even if I became homeless. Oh well.

>>5540774
you may have social anxiety

>>5537565
That is like saying that you knew someone who said that he 'had OCD' but in your experience he just liked things to be clean and ordered, and therefore OCD is not a 'real illness', but rather something that people use as an excuse for. . . something, whatever it could be used as an excuse for. Nonetheless, what you have shown with your anecdote is that there is/was a person who felt sad and was incorrectly diagnosed with depression. However, the existence of one incorrectly diagnosed individual, although I would assume there to be more people like her, does not invalidate the experiences of any of the 'actually depressed people'. I have not the energy nor the motivation to clarify the difference between 'people diagnosed with depression' and 'people who are depressed' and 'people who are "depressed"'.

>>5537717
Examples don't prove shit. Lazy people make lazy solutions, weak-willed people do anything to make the pain go away.

I wouldn't call true depression a lack of will. In my mind it is the opposite, an enormous willpower, an unsatiable quest to answer the questions of existance; this journey to understanding your own mind and soul puts a strain on your body, it makes you weak, it leaves your flesh to rot away. You do not care for the physical world until the metaphysical questions are answered.

Assuming you have willpower to go through the void inside you. If you are a slothful, stupid egoistic dumbass you just want to keep functioning like you used to, then you take pills or drink or smoke weed or whatever.

Then there are cases like DFW which are a sort of inbetween. It is admirable what he achieved because - and probably only because - of psychiatric medicine.