/lit/ - Literature

Page 3 w/o text.

Early draft of page 3 with text.

Oh... western? I fucking love westerns.

Font sucks.

shit anon,you must us the process you went through to fnd an artist.

it is urgent, prehaps even dire

>>545317
Yessir. Westerns and American folklore.

>>545323
That was a placeholder font. Check page five: >>545329

>I don't have anyone to give the script to who won't say, "Oh this is great. Good luck."
Have you tried a publisher maybe? I here the guys at Image are pretty fucking cool if you bring them a close to complete project.

>>545326
I was becoming frustrated talking with art college kids and dead end leads so I googled and got this:
http://www.ehow.com/how_2108673_artist-comic-book-project.html

It worked. Conceptart.org forums. Check it out.

>>545341
That's my #1 choice, actually, of where to bring my finished product. I'm going to San Diego Comic Con in July for this reason.

>>545342

fuck yeah. I will compose an appreciation sonnet in your honor, good sir

>>545350
No problem, broheim.

>>545341
This.

I don't know nothing publishing comics but I did came up upon Image Comics after reading a published comic from them, and they say on their myspace page that they are cool with people sending in works wishing to be published.

>>545329
Fellow /co/mrade here.

Reading what you have so far, I've groaned 6 times. This is not a good sign, there are way too many cliches. There's a difference between deconstructing cliches, like what Moore does, and indulging in them like most mediocre comic book writers.

I like the art. At least you've got your money's worth.

>>545370
What'd you groan at? It hurts, but you don't get better if you just pretend things that are wrong are right.

well, I liek the art for sure. I'm not a jaded pro at comics, so I'd say it looks good overall. but I can't spot cliches

looks fuckin awesome

'I'm not a fan of the good book..'
'No rest for the wicked...'

nnnnnnnn... Perhaps your protagonist sounds a little too much like generic badass cowboy.

>>545404
Agreed. This is an early version of the script, but please be brutal. I need critiques and not coddling.

kudos to the artist
not qualified for script critique though
good luck

>>545382
>implying that even the best of writers don't do cliches all the fucking time

>>545329
This part puts me to sleep. You need to say something surprising here, something to tug the viewer to the next page (since the action has died down), and saying contrived cowboy shit is not the most innovative or poetic thing on the planet.

Hell he could be reading a grocery list in his head, just to make it more fucked up.

*BLAM*

"...milk..."

*BLAM*

"...eggs..."

*BLAM*

"...and sugar..."

>>545424
It's one thing to harness a stereotype and then evolve beyond that, and it's another thing to just be boxed in by that stereotype.

>>545424
Difference between tropes and cliches.

So how much is this person charging you?

>>545459
I'm assuming he gets an agreed upon portion of the profit when/if it gets published. But if not, I'm interested too.

>>545434

i don't want to hate. but that is not that great of an idea at all.

I just saw this thread on /ic/

If you're plagarizing, OP...

>>545378
In order:
>Man with No Name archetype, your protagonist even has the poncho
This archetype has been done, deconstructed, reconstructed, a thousand times before. Sure, I love Leone as much as the next guy, but I highly doubt you'll have anything new to say about it. I'll admit that I don't know what the rest of the story is like, but when you're dealing with much loved archetypes like the Man with No Name, you have to be an extremely good writer for it not to sound like a tired retread. And so far, I haven't been convinced.

>cursing
I don't have any problem with cursing, but use it too much and it loses its impact.

>I miss once.
So he's fired his first shot, and he's missed once. Then why is the Indian clasping his chest? Or did he fire more shots and miss once? The way the dialogue is structured makes it confusing. I also read it as "Until I fired the first shot, I missed once" at first, minor technical error, but there needs to be some spacing between the two. But..

>the rest of the fight
Dialogue might not even be necessary at all for these scenes. As much as I like decompression in comics, I could tell everything I needed to know just from looking at the pictures. Which are great, by the way, props to the artists.

>savage Cherokee villains
Again, another archetype that's been done and deconstructed a thousands times. The Noble Savage too.

>>545487
>But I guess what they say is true
A cliche. Would have worked better as "I'm not a fan of the good book but... there is no rest for the wicked." It's pretty evident that he finds it true, if it were false, he wouldn't be saying it, would he? Also, the "they" is ambiguous, I know it's referring to Christians, but it's not necessary in the sentence.

Some of these are small issues, but then again there really isn't much dialogue in these first few pages. And I know it's silly to judge an entire story based on technical errors, but the small things add up, and so far the only redeeming quality is the art.

If anyone would do me the favor of looking at my script, it'd be much appreciated. I want to throw that out there.

>>545459
>>545463
I'm paying a per page rate. If we get picked up by a publisher, he gets a percentage of ownership.

>>545434
Thanks for the criticism. I agree.

>>545484
I'm not. That's my thread, too. I think I'm posting with the same trip, as well.

>>545489
>>545487
>>545370
Continuing. Homages aren't always bad. Tarantino has built his entire career on them. But there has to be something new added in the mix, some spice to it. Especially when you deal with common archetypes as well loves as the Man with No Name or Superman. Moore made his Superman homage interesting by turning him into a disaffected God, Ellis made his Superman homage
interesting by having Superman suck Batman's cock. What will you do with your homage? Looks pretty generic so far.

>>545489
>>545487
>>545370
Continuing. Homages aren't always bad. Tarantino has built his entire career on them. But there has to be something new added in the mix, some spice to it. Especially when you deal with common archetypes as well loved as the Man with No Name or Superman. Moore made his Superman homage interesting by turning him into a disaffected God, Ellis made his Superman homage
interesting by having Superman suck Batman's cock. What will you do with your homage? Looks pretty generic so far.

>>545507
hold on TIGHT to your artist, man. you have an awesome one.

>>545520
I agree with this man. He's better than some professional ones.

>>545513
That's a lot to take in, but it all rings true.

This is the most constructive criticism I've ever hard. Many many many thanks, /co/mrade.

>>545524
But then again, everyone is better than Liefeld.

>>545305
I love how the guy's face matches the wind-blasted rock wall. That's all the goddamn characterization you need.

>>545531
So less talk, more wind-blasted rock face?

I have some more pages posted here:
http://flavors.me/anthonymay#a7b/tumblr

The first five pages are set in Oklahoma, with a western setting. The next 17 are in a New Bedford whaling town. Both of these characters are based heavily on American folklore.

Your artist is amazing. But you know that .So stop posting him and work on the fucking story that's influencing his work.

>>545552
Deal.

>>545555
I don't have to deal with shit. You do. The sooner you realize that and stop fucking about on 4chan, the better.

Or you can fade into obscurity, having postponed working on a project with a decent artist. Which is what you're doing. Enjoy your brush with success, no doubt it will warm you when you're cooking my fries at McDonald's.

>>545563
You took that the wrong way. He meant "Deal." as in "Okay, what you suggested is reasonable. It is a deal that I will try to comply."

>>545568
that's a rather esoteric response to 'deal.'

>>545568
I hope so, honestly.

With an artist like that, and clearly it's BASED on a decent story. Dude shouldn't let that slip.

>>545563
Jackass.

>>545571
No, that's pretty much the standard version. "It's a deal." "Sounds like a deal then." "You got yourself a deal."

"Deal with it" doesn't actually make sense if you think about it...

Hey. I remember seeing this on /co/ a while back. Always thought this looked like an awesome comic. The only thing I'd say is it feels like it jumps into the action a bit too abruptly. It starts out kind of philosophical/meditative, then suddenly the hero isn't isolated anymore. Maybe have the Indians appear with more subtlety into the scene rather than charging in like that. Their appearance on the scene just seems kind of awkward, wish I could explain it better. Wouldn't the cowboy have heard the horses coming before hearing their footsteps?

that looks really gorgeous, OP

>>545578
On the internet, using deal as in "that's a deal" is pretty random. I can't imagine anyone taking that one word, on an anonymous imageboard, to mean that. But that's my loss.

Regardless: Artist is great. He's working from SOMETHING, so clearly that's good. Get over your writers block and do it. w00t, etc. I see no dialogue. Just the pics.

>>545563
>>545568
Yeah. I wasn't mouthing off. Anon called me out and was right.

I'm freaking out because dealing with real life, no holds barred, /lit/ criticism is a lot more difficult than I thought it would be. I started fishing for compliments without thinking about it by posting more artwork.

My bad.

>realizing some narration and dialogue feels rough
>posting pics without dialogue and narration

Op. Umm.. not the most qualified on writing (though I write for fun) ,but use your artist to show the action don't rely heavily on the writing. Like the "I missed one thing" leave it to the art to show such a thing happened. Also little too cliche. I hope that the character is well rounded. That is all and I am hopping to see your comic at my local store.I fucking love westerns.

The tiny bits of text you actually have are bad. I winced at the first bit of text I saw. The artwork is good. Your writing is not. Unless you are hiding the good stuff, you need to rework it.

>>545594
You got me, bro. You got me. I was hoping that /lit/ would say, "Yeah, actually, we have a well established group of /lit/ goers that trade and brutally critique each other's work" because I have about TWO damn pages that have text on them.

>>545590
Criticism is always difficult. But you're also on an anon imageboard, asking for thoughts. Suck it up.

Your concerns seem to be about dialogue, not the graphic portion. So post that if you want constructive criticism. We all agree that the artwork is good.

>>545604
No, we have that. But you need to, you know... post that. Dialogue. And such. To get torn apart.

>>545600
It's early drafts, but the reworkings aren't much better. If at all.

Protip: if you can't say the script out loud without feeling ashamed, it isn't good.

Try saying it all out loud before you write it down, pretend you're in the shoot out yourself and say what you would naturally say. This helps me a lot when I'm trying to write prose and natural dialogue, it may help you too.

http://docs.google.com/View?id=d3zjtw4_3cw3724vz

There's the issue 1 script. Brutal honesty time. Trial by fire, /lit/, right?

>>545622
I'll try this next time I sit down to write some dialogue. Thanks.

>>545605
Sucking it up: >>545624

>>545624

Is this your first comic script?

>>545631
Yes.

>>545633

Cool. I've been looking into starting one. Did you read any sort of book or something before starting on it?

>>545614
If you think this is /lit/ related and want a critique of your text, don't post pictures, just post the goddamn words. Cartoons are for /co/. We take literature here. Your artist is good. Your words are not. Most of us think this is a cool project and are impressed by how far you've gotten. But if you want criticism, you have to post something we can critique. Otherwise, take it back to your board.

>>545637

Speak for yourself, tool.

>>545634
I read the script for Watchmen, Batman: Year One, some old Marvel, and other things that I could get my hand on.

I used the Dark Horse script format(ish).

One rule I've always heard: if the artist doesn't read it, it's not going to show up.

>>545575
Red is supposed to say "dumbass".

>>545546
I'm going to be the asshole and say yes, let your artist carry the work. From the looks of what you were going for, the story REALLY works as a sort of silent western, with sparse but beautiful details.

Unfortunately the script you have is not like that. Page zero is too much exposition that's fucking irrelevant to the cowboy. Go from simple to complicated, not vice versa.

>>545637
http://docs.google.com/View?id=d3zjtw4_3cw3724vz

Here are the words.

I understand why you're angry. I'm sucking it up and I have posted my writing.

>>545638
Why should we sit here in /lit/ and fawn over this guy's pictures? It has nothing to do with this board. We'd be happy to look at his words. /lit/ throws a shitfit everytime someone posts about manga, graphic novels, light novels, anime, or other bullshit. Then one guy shows up with five pages of pictures and about 40 words totally and we all bend over backwards to congratulate him?

He wanted a critique of his writing. He provided no writing. Show us the writing, we'd love to see it. Your pictures are uninteresting and irrelevant on /lit/.

>>545649

And for the most part I disagree with the other anons here. I like to see the words framed by what's going on in the art, because comic books ARE a visual medium - what works in the written word might look awkward when superimposed with visuals.

>>545650
Awesome, thank you. You are a brave man. Will look at it now.

>>545651
I agree. My bad. I don't visit /lit/ that often. I just know you're notorious for giving honest criticism.

Here's the link to the work, again: http://docs.google.com/View?id=d3zjtw4_3cw3724vz

>>545653
I'm proud of the artwork, even though I wasn't the one who physically drew it. I thought up the scenes, wrote them, and figured out what would fit to a page.

I'm, for the most part, much more proud of my descriptions of scenes then I am of narration and dialogue.

Is William of Pecos the same as Pecos Bill?!?! I love him!

>>545662
Yessir. I don't have him named until a couple issues in, though. "What's your name?" To which he replies: "William, out of Pecos."

>>545658
CAPTION: BILL’S INNER MONOLOGUE
I can’t see SHIT...

> captain obvious

Thanos, you need to pull back more and do less exposition with your script. I KNOW he can't see shit, why do I have to hear it?

And stuff like all his internal monologues just weakens him as a character. He talks to himself way too much for a stoic cowboy archetype, so it just comes off as half-assed.

Are you looking for proofreading or general critiques of story/plot/mechanics/whatever?

>>545670
Okay. Understood.

>>545672
Anything you're willing to do. I've had maybe 5 people read the scripts. They have supplied only grammatical, spelling checks. I always hoped someone would critique my storytelling as a whole. Plot. Mechanics. Anything you're willing to help me with.

I wish I had had the cojones to ask /lit/'s help earlier, before I started production.

>>545678
I think you have a really great sense for environment and description that works well in a novel, but not so much a comic.

>>545678
It's probably better you didn't come to /lit/ earlier. People would have shit on you all along the way and made you uninspired to complete things. Now you've got something concrete and finished. We, with all our snarky criticism, trolling, and a few serious comments, can't take that away from you.

>>545687
So... just too many words?

>>545697
yup

Good work OP, nice art and the writing seems to work well with the artwork. Dialogue isn't rough though, sits well with the artwork - your protagonist looks the kind of few words type.

With regards to getting it published, don't give up. Go to conventions, send it to publishers, find other writers and artists who do comics in your area and go out for a drink with them (if old enough wherever you live) - learn as much as you can and get as many contacts as you can. GET A BUSINESS CARD - GIVE IT EVERYONE YOU MEET IN THE INDUSTRY.

I spent a few years hanging out with British comic writers & artists in the early 90s and met a lot of really cool people. One of the coolest, Alan Martin (tank Girl writer amongst other things), is someone you should get in contact with for advice and tips, he posts on this forum http://www.tank-girl.com/forum/ and is a top notch fellow.

The most important thing I can remember about writing comics is research everything you are going to write about heavily. Even artists I knew would read extensivley if tackling a new subject just get to ideas for background objects, clothing, etc. Look for obscure references on your subject as they will contain the nugget of gold that attract your readers.

I said it previously in this thread before you posted your script ,but.... you need to trust your artist. Write less on what is happening that can be just plainly noticed in the first few pages. So loosen up on the monologues unless they are absolutely necessary.

>>545703
Thanks for the advice, man.

>>545705
Less words. I'm getting a lot of that. That's good. Solid, nailed down, applicable criticism.

>>545580
Here
After reading your script I can see it eliminates the concerns I had in my post. The artwork should show Pecos sleeping and being surprised by the attack. The art is great, but your writing is better than the artist's translation. The Indians' crucifix necklaces were another important piece that is missing from the art. One thing I don't like in the script is the internal monologues, and it doesn't look like I'm the only one who thinks they're unnecessary. One example is when Alfred is thinking about the big whaling competition- that could be said with just a poster advertising the competition and Alfred giving it close attention. The story seems like it would work with just sparse, realistic dialogue. I think you could do wonders with more symbolism, little descriptions here and there to replace dialogue and show things (character history, foreshadowing), you seem really good with laying out the imagery of a scene. As for the plot, I think it's pretty good, but it has some cliches in it (Graves and gang being irredeemably evil and getting stomped by Alfred in a sort of Mary Sue-ish way). The gang seems like it could use some fleshing out. Are they going to be competing in the Games? Anyway, good job on this. I'd definitely buy this if it came out.

>>545731
Yeah. The gang gets fleshed out more in issue 3. I want to endear them to the reader later and give them more character. They definitely feel like cardboard cutout cliches in issue 1.

>"Hear that, he wants to finish his COFFEE"

I cringed until it hurt. There are a lot of cliches in here. A lot. Verbal cliches, character cliches, setting cliches (this is from someone who consider steampunk an over-saturated trend). It's not horrible, but as a relatively new series, you have to do something different, and not rely on archetypes. Especially if your name isn't established.

You found a great artist, who probably doesn't have much name recognition. Good for you. Keep him, keep him and never let go. Because the moment the art deteriorates, they'll notice the horrible dialogue.

I'm going to sleep. If anyone stumbles upon the script and wants to drop me a line about criticism, e-mail's in the e-mail field.

>>545731
Oh, and yeah. They're competing in the Games. Sorry, it's late and I'm tired.

>>545762
Yeah. That's bad. Jesus. Any more critiques are welcome. But goddamn if I am not ashamed when things are brought to my attention.

>>545766
Advice for making the dialogue more natural? Tricks, things to read? A way to practice? How to make it better? Anything?

Lose the self narration. That went out of style decades ago.

I'm back. I'm bumping. Here's the script, if anyone is so inclined.

Issue 1:
http://docs.google.com/View?id=d3zjtw4_3cw3724vz

I've saved the responses so far and I'm spending this week doing a heavy rewrite. Thanks for all the help, /lit/.

>>546126
I understand that my self narration is BAD, but self narration, while not being in popular literature, is still a backbone in the comic book medium.

The current trend is speech only, however. Is that something you'd like to see? I realize you're probably not around anymore, so the question goes out to everyone.

You keep going bud. You have a nice artist that fleshes out things well, the main character looks like a silent type, lighten up on the dialogue/monologues for him.

Also do what a previous anon said, if you cant read it outloud with out feeling ashamed, rewrite it. Dont do corny shit or awkwardly worded stuff. Just because its a western doesnt mean it cant take itself seriously.

also post this on /co/ when everyone is lively and stuff.

>>545302
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>>545304
Just out of curiousity, what's the page rate you're paying the artist?

>>547119
I plan on posting the whole thing: cover, page 1-22, for /co/ when it is all done. Which should be in about a month, actually.

>>547169
$250. I spent 6 months looking for an artist.

>5500 DOLLAH

Well, I gotta respect you for putting your money where your mouth is.

Your lettering definitely needs work. There are some guides out there for you to read.

http://www.gunsofshadowvalley.com/

There's a similar western comic for you to check out. Look at how well the lettering matches the art.

>>547201
If you were just looking at page 3, that's filler text (and in Comic Sans for that matter). Page 5 has the font that I'm going to be using. It's called EuroComic if anyone is interested. It's from blambot.com

>>547245
And a quick link to page 5.
>>545329

>>545301
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>>547245
It's not just the font. You're making simple mistakes like using a crossbar I outside of a personal pronoun. And the kerning is too low which affects legibility.

Honestly, letterers are pretty cheap so getting a good one shouldn't cost you that much more (if you're going to pay that much anyway). Or you could get one to work for you for a cut of the money if you show them the art and an improved script. Just from a design angle, a good letterer is worth his weight in gold.

>>547265
you are a man after my own heart.

do not say "no rest for the wicked" it is a cliche.

>>548263
Typography geeks unite!