/lit/ - Literature

>>5438462

Yes and I'd like to think I've done a lot of research.

>>5438462
>>5438462
Go to bed /pol/

>>5438472
They won the peloponnesian war and was pretty much adored by most philosophers. So why wasn't they the greatest state?

>>5438471
>Tfw I will never be fighting for based Sparta in the Peloponnesian War.

>>5438477

Yeah, that's the one in the movie, right? Where they fight Muhammad and his army?

>>5438475
Because they solved their problems by enslaving the Helots, forcing them to work while the rest of the Spartan population was bred and trained for war. Essentially, they were the first police state.

Sparta was ignorant, dogmatic, and paradoxically faulting their own laws constantly.

For example, they are supposed to be all about "the art of war", yet they innovated nothing about hoplite warefare, thus got rapped by the Romans, and would have been raped by Alexander's hoplite Phalanx.

Also, Spartan's would murder physically fit and intelligent Helots instead of acknowledging their talents and incorporating them into the Spartan system.

Sparta was superior militarily for a couple of hundred years, but quickly became irrelevant for their ignorance and lack of ability to innovate.

>>5438493
JESUS-FUCKING-CHRIST!!

Pls leave.

>>5438499
Are there any biographies or whatnot that focus on Sparta (preferably good ones)?

Have you ever read about how they raised their children?

>>5438471
>>5438475
>>5438477
>>5438500
>>5438507

>>5438519
This thread is painful

>>5438525
>>5438519
thank Apollo that your apported something

>>5438462
Athens. I don't know why this is even a debatable question. Sparta didn't produce any literature at all because muh laconic speech.

>>5438536
Because some anons are too into "muh masculinity".

>>5438507

Paul Cartledge has written several (The Spartans is probably what you're after). There are also ancient sources, of course: RJA Talbert did a volume of Plutarch's writings on Sparta for Penguin (Plutarch on Sparta, ISBN 0140444637 / 9780140444636 - out of print, but probably available used or in libraries). Ancient historians like Thucydides are also important sources, of course, but much of the extant material is from other states (esp. Athens) or periods (Plutarch's much later), so reliability is a problem.

One strand of opinion holds that the Spartan social system was not sustainable for more than a few generations.

>>5438562
Isn't there some Greek soldier/philosopher who was an Athenian but dedicated his allegiance to the Spartans and wrote a great deal of work concerning 'em? I believe his name began with an X?

Athens under Pericles was the greatest state

>>5438536

Tyrtaios (Latinizied form "Tyrtaeus")? Just because Spartan literature doesn't survive, doesn't mean there was none.

>>5438591
he lived before lycurgus reform

>>5438581

Are you thinking of Xenophon? He was a member, and later a leader, of a group of Greek mercenaries who took part in a failed rebellion in Persia, and later entered Spartan service, and he fought for Sparta in wars within Greece (the former is the subject of the Anabasis: it tells of the mercenaries' march to escape the disaster in which they found themselves). Xenophon was for a time exiled from Athens, but is also an important source for matters Athenian, including Sokrates.

>>5438626

So? >>5438536 said "Sparta didn't produce any literature at all". Tyrtaios disproves that (and is also very much part of the martial tradition with which Sparta is most identified).

>>5438633
Yes! Kinda sad really. Despite all the negativity Sparta tends to receive, you have to admit that they were a rather interesting bunch. Too bad their stubbornness ultimately led to their downfall.

>>5438462

I hope to do Greek and Roman Civilisation and the Greek language in college next year. I quite enjoyed learning the Greek alphabet, it's not as hard as I expected.

>>5438462
they were pretty much the north korea of the time.
heavily militaristic, yet under equipped society, talked a lot of shit to its neighbors, got shat on in every war it's been in

>>5438499
>For example, they are supposed to be all about "the art of war", yet they innovated nothing about hoplite warefare, thus got rapped by the Romans, and would have been raped by Alexander's hoplite Phalanx.

Whilst I agree with you on the subject of Sparta, the city-state in 480 BC (whatever one wants to think about Thermopylae) and the city-state being ravaged by that (ironically) Hellenophile Flamininus c. 195 BC are hella different, to the extent that Sparta had eclipsed due to various failings, not necessarily inherent in their system.

I mean, the rest of Hellenic civ fared no better against the Romans, much to Macedonian or Aetolian complaint.

>>5438462
Athens > Sparta

>>5438588
Pericles was a thief and lost the war by enclosing every Athenian (including peasants) in the Acropolis; making effectively everyone susceptible to famine and disease

Athens was the greatest. Our lives are enriched and provided a foundation by the writings and demonstrative ideas of Athenians - the Spartans, not so much.

>>5438462
Which city still exists?

>>5439201
GG

>>5439201
Question 'why?'.

>>5438462
>barbaric boy fuckers
>no science
>no arts
>only 'i fuck women solely for the purpose of recreation"
>other "i fuck my men, women are for pregnancy only"

lol

top fucking kek
holy goddamn shit no

they were idiots

>>5439210
The Romans actually found something worth keeping in Athens.

>>5439201
athens and sparta both still exist

Greatest polis for what? It's all personal opinion and it did things better than others and some things worse than others.

>>5439247
no, sparta was just kinda a shithole all around.
see>>5438797

>>5439246
>sparta still exists

okay

>>5439256
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sparta(modern)

>inb4 hurr wikipedia

>>5439267
shit, i fucked the link

>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sparta_%28modern%29

Friendly reminder that Sparta does not ravage city-states they've conquered unlike Ur-SA

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milos#Conflict_with_Athens

>>5439319
>Friendly reminder that Sparta does not ravage city-states they've conquered unlike Ur-SA

The war's first battle was the Spartan attack on Ampheia, a city of unknown location now, but probably on the western flank of Taygetus. A swift night march brought them to the gates, which stood open. There was no garrison, nor were they in any way expected. The first sign the Ampheians had of war was the Spartans rousing people out of bed to kill them. Some few took refuge in the temples; others fled for their lives. The Spartans sacked the city then turned it into a garrison for the conduct of further operations against Messenia.[16] The Messenian women and children were captured. The men who had survived the massacre were sold into slavery.[17]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Messenian_War

Fuckin idiot shut up.

>>5439173
>enclosing every Athenian (including peasants) in the Acropolis

Not sure that would even be possible. Athens was a walled city, and there were also walls (the Long Walls) down to the harbour at Piraeus. It was within the walls that the Athenian populace was withdrawn, with predictable and well known results.

But that wasn't the only issue. Athens was a military power at the time, but relied heavily on its navy. Sparta was primarily land based. This meant that Athens' greatest weapon, and partial source of its fifth century wealth and power, was not that much use in this particular conflict. Not to mention the others parties who had good reason to resent Athens.

>>5438462
>>>/int/

>>5439238

Actually, there's some evidence that Spartan citizen women were in a considerably better social and economic position than those of some other Greek states, notably Athens (where a woman was always economically and socially subject to a male relative, and failing anything else, the state). Because of the military system, they had more influence in other areas, and were expected to be educated.

>>5439625
I read recently from Oxford's Classical Mythology 9th edition that Athenian women actually had far more power and freedom than we give them credit because we dont consider the influence they had over religion (only considering specific centuries).

>>5439715

But consider (1) marriage by mid-teens, (2) no property rights or personal autonomy ever, and (3) no political rights. That doesn't look much like "power and freedom" to anyone who's not reaching desperately for something positive to say. Besides, women were important to Greek religion in many states; not just Athens. The most important oracle in the Greek world spoke through a woman.

>>5439786

Oh, and also consider that marriage would often have been to an older male (which may have contributed to the idea of 'respectable' women as inherently intellectually inferior), and that girls' education was very much at the discretion of parents (and educators: the Pythagoreans and Plato are notable for having female students, and the former even reportedly leaders; and questioning social distinctions becomes a big deal in some Hellenistic philosophical schools).

Point is: women might not have been as impotent in Athens as some accounts say, but they are from from having a position of power, even compared to some in other contemporary states. And not just Athens. When Alexander left a female regional official in charge during his Persian conquests, this is reported to be a cause of dissension with some of his Greeks.

This may be a hindsight thing but did none of the Greeks realize that a huge war between them would weaken them enough to allow Persia/Rome/Whoever else to overtake them?

>>5439812
What happened to the "philosophers should question their society" thing that led some to not cutting off their beards because being beardless was fashionable at the time?

maybe the gayest city-state

and them greek city-states were real queer

>>5439812
>but they are from from having a position of power

"far from"

>>5439786
>>5439812
The conversation was about Athenian women relative to Spartan women.

1) Was this different in Sparta?
2) 3)Yes they did, in Athens women could be citizens. It was not based on sex but blood. What they couldnt do was vote. There is archaeological evidence of Athenian priestesses talking before political assemblies, signing official documents with their own seal

>>5439891

Yes, as I said (indeed: this was my principal point), women in Sparta had greater rights in terms of property and autonomy (whereas an Athenian woman was always legally under a male guardian - father, husband, other relative, designed guardian, or the state failing all of these), a greater public profile in daily life because of the military barracks system which meant that women were crucial to the education and development of young children of both sexes and had a greater role in managing their households and such, and Spartan women were expected to be educated intellectually and physically like their male counterparts (which led to accusations from male Athenians that they were insufficiently modest, demure, feminine, etc.).

Citizenship does not equate to political rights. In Classical Athens, its primary goal was to restrict access - you could only be a citizen if you had citizen parents; so women's citizenship conferred political rights on male children; not on the women themselves. It was part of the complex of ideas that saw women as first and foremost the bearers of legitimate male children.

>>5439891

The relevance of women having a role in Greek religion throughout the Greek world is that, pace >>5439715 , the role of Athenian women in religion does not mean that they had greater "power and freedom" than women of other states; only that they possibly had more than they are sometimes given credit for. OTOH, in some cases, even this role was linked to their other social role as daughter > wife > mother: that is, the religious rituals and observances in which they have important roles are to to with that cycle, or with divine figures that model aspects of that cycle. It's kind of like arguing - mutatis mutandis - that women have power and authority in the Catholic church because there are nuns, and because little girls play Mary in the Nativity play.

>>5439891

Also, isolated, carefully circumscribed, roles for specific women do not provide evidence for the general position. Look at modern societies: there are countries where a woman (usually of the socio-economic elite) can become head of state or head of government, but where at the same time, women in general perform a lot of the functions at the base of society, and may be subject to severe disabilities, cultural expectations, and penalties (take the difference between educated, wealthy India and Pakistan, and the rural circumstances, for instance). It's sort of as if some women, by virtue of background or office, get to step out of the standard role assigned their sex; whereas men in general, merely by virtue of their sex, possess abilities and rights most women simply never have.

Is this the most overrated man in the classical period?

>Had to leave behind an army almost as large as the one used to conquer Persia because the greeks absolutely hated him personally and macedonian rule in general.

>Ended a 300 year old empire

>Replaced it with a never ending state of strife that lasted until the romans came along

>Did it all for loot and vain glory

>Somehow up being recognized as a great promoter of pluralism in modern times when the intermarriage stuff was actually a political necessity because even his own men hated his guts. Most marriages were abandoned after he died anyway.

>Destroyed the notion of public governance by making a god out of himself (which would later influence the romans as the Republic failed).

>was actually short, ugly and couldn't grow a beard (unseemly for a macedonian of that age)

I admit he was a good cavalry commander, though.

>>5440084
>Somehow up being recognized as a great promoter of pluralism in modern times

In fairness, that's hardly a consensus or uncontested view of him.

>Destroyed the notion of public governance by making a god out of himself

But he came from a monarchy, and claiming divine ancestry or associations was hardly unusual in the Greek world, for either families or states. There's also an argument that the Roman Principate essentially appropriated, or at least mirrored, not just some of the territories but also many of the iconographic and ideological elements of Alexander's and Hellenistic monarchy.

>>5438462

Military wise speaking? Probably. The rest? A shit.
And, even military wise, Athens was the uncontested ruler of the seas, and of course, of the Intelligence.

>>5438512
inb4 Taygetus.

>name another greek city other than sparta or athens

>inb4 pompeii

>>5440125
Abdera
Ephesus

>>5440139
>having to look them up on google

>>5440139
>inb4 Democritus and Heraclitus

>>5440147
Of course, I don't want to end up writing them in my language.

>>5440125
Corinth was even the Big Dude for a while.

>>5440155
I guess, because of commerce and agriculture.

>>5440125
Thebes? They smacked Sparta's shit and Sparta never became great again

>>5440150

Why not Thales of Miletus?

>>5440155
>>5440154
>implying that the Persian empire wasn't more relevant

>>5440174

Are you trying to derail this fine thread?

>>5440181

>Spartan boys were entrusted to the care of respected men at the age of twelve. Penalties
awaited men who refused to provide such tutelage, or who did so poorly. The relationships were definitely sexual, as attested by the twenty-six-hundred-year-old carved inscriptions still
visible on a seaside rock wall in the former Spartan colony of Thera. There, a few dozen meters
from the old temple of Apollo, Spartan men brought in expert stone carvers to record their
accomplishments: “Here Krimon had anal intercourse with his pais [boy], the brother of
Bathycles,” reads one inscription.

Spartans were patrician as fuck.