/lit/ - Literature

No, I'm straight.

Don't be coy. What kind of nepotism is going on in the NY lit scene that compares to #gamergate?

>>5402913

>expecting us to know about video game drama

Take it to /manchild/.
We don't know and we don't care.

>>5402927
Who is 'we'?

>>5402913

columbia mfa, and yeah, gamergate is bush league compared to what ive seen.

you could make the argument that contemporary american literature is the end result of a full academically-buttressed sjw occupation. and yet they continue to wonder why fiction has become so insular and unpopular.

>>5402927

>knee-jerk, misguided disdain
>poor reading comprehension

no U take it to /v/ fucking faggot

>>5402931

Those who aren't manchildren.

>>5402924

how bad do you want to know....
how far you willing to go.....
what are you willing to show...
my disaffected lonely ho?

>>5402938

>no U take it to /v/

sikk burn spergking

>>5402927
>Ugh.. these plebs.. on my /lit/.. ugh.. I read books now.. I thought I had left these plebs behind..

>>5402924

the whole alt-lit scene (centering around justin taylor, blake butler, tao lin, et al.) is hideously incestuous, and somewhat fits the mold of what's happening with games now. favor trading, influence peddling, insider contest bullshit, etc etc. just rotten to the core.

>>5402946

gr8 post gr8 post

>>5402951
The whole Muumuu House crew is just despicable. I mean, Tao Lin himself is actually a pretty brilliant author and I think a couple more novels on par or with or better than Taipei would solidify him as THE literary genius of his generation but the whole scene is just ugly.

>>5402913
>GamerGate
can you explain why this is relevant, comparable, etc
fuck seriously not everyone is a worthless faggot jizzing over popculture winners/losers
i'm reading this to try and understand your post, i'm making an effort
http://www.vox.com/2014/9/6/6111065/gamergate-explained-everybody-fighting
meet me halfway, this shit is boring as fuck

>>5402951

I heard the n + 1 guys were pretty bad with this stuff as well

>>5402958

>would solidify him as THE literary genius of his generation

It would solidify him as an above average author. Nothing more. People are far too ready to throw the world "genius" around because of this generational literary drought. It's a joke.

>>5402934
>you could make the argument that contemporary american literature is the end result of a full academically-buttressed sjw occupation.

Agreed. The worst part is how these terrible and over-hyped SJW authors are subsidized by the academic establishment.

Junot Diaz is a good example. Listen to any of his public speaking engagements online. He hews so closely to the social justice script it's fucking embarrassing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TA8X6TUA83k#t=41m55s

>>5402946

>comes to a literature board to discuss manchild shit
>gets mad when people don't care about his manchild shit

i wish you spectrumfriends would stay in your containment zone with the other mentally regressive "gamers"

>>5402958
>Tao Lin himself is actually a pretty brilliant author

Stop lying to yourself.

So what the fuck is gamergate?

I just looked up this Gamer-Gate thing and what a surprise, another fucking non-event in 2014.

Anyway, nothing will really surpass this piece of slightly brutally-honest criticism and overarching autism:
http://www.edrants.com/emily-gould-literary-narcissism-and-the-middling-millennials/

>>5402968
>generational literary drought
Oh stop it with this. Tao Lin is at least on the level of a Faulkner or a Twain. He needs a few more great novels to get into literary giant territory (Dante, Shakespeare, Joyce, Wallace) but for a 31 year-old he's got a great catalog.

>>5402973

yo junot knows where his meal ticket's coming from, yo

seriously, i've always had this sneaking suspicion that junot is running the longest con in the history of literature

>>5402981

>please take the bait
>p-p-please

>>5402980

Except that guy pussed out and tried to throw himself off a bridge following the negative reaction to the piece.

>>5402979
Some stupid fat SJW cunt fake indie game dev accused wizardchan (an ultra-24/7-sad version of /r9k/) of trolling her to get some mild attention. It snowballed into people trolling on her. They accidentally struck gold by finding a blogpost of her ex-boyfriend saying she fucked a ton of dudes and cheated on him and etc. 4chan trolls went bananas because of the usual blood in the water, especially /v/, which took offense to her shit non-game. From there people dug further and found out she was fucking people tenuously connected to her game's publicity. That snowballed into a big internet crusade about indie game journalism/development, regularly renewed by constant revelations that indie game devs are apparently all dyed-hair hipsters who are fucking and sucking the living hell out of each other, bankrolling games they are judging or someone they fuck is judging in a contest, etc.

tldr; trolling SJWs.

>>5402976
>>5402980

>mfw the perpetually colon crucified sjw contingent of /lit/ arrives

apologies if this thread is triggering you, friends

>>5402924

I'd actually be MORE concerned if I discovered that someone in position of authority WASN'T getting bribes and/or rim jobs for the unreadable shit that gets published in The New Yorker's fiction section. Holy shit, why is that place still considered the best venue in the business?

Bret Easton Ellis left the New York literary scene because he couldn't stand it.

>>5402992
You forgot the part also where the SJWs are writing articles announcing the "death" of a gamer. Basically they decided they have the authority to declare gamers "dead" and as an outdated and uncool demographic that if anyone was involved in they were basically rapist manchildren.

Hipsters like telling other people what is and isn't okay to like.

>>5402976
>mentally regressive
>gamers shown to be more social, intelligent and likely to live with a significant other + hold full time jobs than nongamers.

Yeah, I mean, I'm sure any real scene is kinda like that. In publishing it at least seems like there are more and more choices for where your content can go. i.e. if HTML Giant doesn't like my stuff there's always the Quarterly Conversation, etc. So that's cool. I really, really don't like the stupid ass nepotism. Same with the indie game literati who are...well, making dumb games. Kinda like most of the indie lit. I guess I'm kinda tired of all of them.

>>5402992
>indie game devs are apparently all dyed-hair hipsters who are fucking and sucking the living hell out of each other, bankrolling games they are judging or someone they fuck is judging in a contest, etc.

most people at my mfa were fucking and sucking the living hell out of each other, too.

the only difference was that we had / have no means of making a living outside academia, and had / have no audience outside of academia.

>>5403017
Can you post a link to such an article? Would be good for a laugh.

>>5403017

Hey, remember the endless cycle of articles in the NYT and elsewhere about the death of the novel, the death of the male reader, etc.?

Uncanny.

None of these fucking jackasses can bring themselves to the realization that it might not be their audience that's wrong -- it might be their own perverted vision of society.

>>5403038
this post on reddit has a ton of them linked:

http://www.reddit.com/r/SRSsucks/comments/2f027x/sj_media_is_shitting_out_article_after_article/

I can't help but feel distracted by how utterly unimportant all of this is

>>5403041
Also note that a recent part of the drama has been a Reddit mod coming to the surface and admitting the Reddit staff is a corrupt (WOW SURPRISE) bunch of discourse-controlling cockgobblers who shadowban you for using the word "bias" among other things.

>>5402997
>>5403025

>manchildren board tourists coming here and defending their right to be manchildren

okay.jpg

>>5403039
>Hey, remember the endless cycle of articles in the NYT and elsewhere about the death of the novel, the death of the male reader, etc.?

let's not forget Nasir "Rap Is Kill" Jones who somehow finds the time to release a shitty album every few years in between bouts of loudly and obnoxiously screaming that hip hop is dead

>>5403041
Thanks.

>>5403045
I'm aware of that. I've watched all three of Internet Aristocrat's videos and looked over the chatter on Twitter.

The main problem I have is that none of the people indicted are worth two shits. The journalists haven't produced interesting articles and the devs haven't made anything noteworthy. It's ridiculous.

>>5403042

>xe said, tightening xer anus around xer dragon dildo butt plug with frustration as xe closed the tab and spent the rest of xer evening browsing /lit/

>>5403017
>You forgot the part also where the SJWs are writing articles announcing the "death" of a gamer. Basically they decided they have the authority to declare gamers "dead" and as an outdated and uncool demographic that if anyone was involved in they were basically rapist manchildren.

So basically they finally realized something every other non-virginal human being realized sometime around senior year of high school: gaming culture is shit and vidya games are for manchildren.

Either way it's funny to see SJW types attempt to appropriate "geek" culture and then get blown the fuck out. I'm so tired of that entire demographic.

>>5403010
I'm sure he actually had good reason.

Speaking of which, why is it a meme on /lit/ to shit on Ellis? Just because he's "edgy" or something?

I've never actually read any of his books but I imagine if he didn't write American Psycho we wouldn't have gotten the film, which was pretty good.

>>5403017
This
Ultimately if I were to explain it, it's not only a bunch of children and man children learning what nepotism is and how disgusting it can be, but it's a turning point for the industry in regards to the relationship between the consumers and hobbyists and developers. What used to be a niche avenue of journalism has engorged itself to a marketing machine that takes it upon itself to be the voice for consumers and with this scandal it's starting to get to the point where people are saying no more.

>>5403038
Not that I have it, but it's been several tweets and because all of this is centered on online journalism, people are hesitant to invite traffic for ad revenue for said articles. I mean you have European articles being taken down and erased from web archives

>>5403065
>why is it a meme on /lit/ to shit on Ellis?
>I've never actually read any of his books
If you read him you'd understand he's Tao Lin without the meta-brilliance or humor (if you didn't at least smile at the butter scene in Taipei you're not human).

>>5403046
>board tourists

"N-n-no one frequents /lit/ who d-doesn't fall into l-lockstep with the c-c-cardinal principles of what I think /lit/ should b-be!"

>inb4 go back to /pol/
>inb4 accusations of board raiding
>inb4 massive sjw buttblistering

just ignore the tab and fuck off

>>5403061

>So basically they finally realized something every other non-virginal human being realized sometime around senior year of high school: gaming culture is shit and vidya games are for manchildren.

Can we just /thread this abortion of a thread with this right now.

Holy fuck is this thread some schoolyard embarrassment.

>>5402981
Tao, it's late. Go to bed.

>>5403046
Board tourists? That's really what you're going to go with?

>>5403041
>http://www.reddit.com/r/SRSsucks

Huh. This subreddit is actually pretty good.

>>5403067
>What used to be a niche avenue of journalism has engorged itself to a marketing machine that takes it upon itself to be the voice for consumers and with this scandal it's starting to get to the point where people are saying no more.

In all seriousness, can you name a single periodical dedicated to alt-lit that doesn't function as an ideologically progressive marketing machine? Dead serious question.

If you say The Rumpus, so help me god I'll fight you in real life.

>>5403045
>Reddit mod coming to the surface and admitting the Reddit staff is a corrupt (WOW SURPRISE) bunch of discourse-controlling cockgobblers who shadowban you for using the word "bias" among other things.
This interests me. Do you have a source?

>>5403072
>>5403081

Take the video game discussion to /v/.

You have an entire board for it.

>>5403061
I think what's really frustrating about that is that this happened back in 2005-7. They were all fucking alive for gaming getting substantially bigger and it's incredible that they're acting like anything new has happened in the last 3 years concerning gaming's sales and scope. They just want to spite the other geeks...which is so dumb I don't even know where to begin.

>>5403065
Because the majority of Ellis' books are shit. He wrote two that are worth a damn and he still acts like he's very important. He has the perfect personality for mockery because he's actually insignificant.

>>5403087
http://www.reddit.com/r/videos/comments/2fr0uj/evidence_of_corruption_in_the_reddit_admin_staff/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NOTZ4tpKr8Y

>>5403054
>The main problem I have is that none of the people indicted are worth two shits.
>The journalists haven't produced interesting articles and the devs haven't made anything noteworthy. It's ridiculous.
Not who you replied to but you're preaching to the choir

It's the audacity that these people have that gets to me. This isn't some Nintendo person, or concept artist, or music producer, or anyone in any notable credit list, but the damn blogs and Twitter has made them so arrogant to believe to have a bigger voice than they're due.

>>5403092
>that top comment

>>5403090
B-but it's journalism and has to do with ethics. It's just as much a /lit/ topic. OP asked if there's an equivalent in literature, and there apparently is. So what's happening with video games is immediately relevant to this topic.

>>5403090

>interested in talking about alt-lit nepotism
>tell sjw fag accusing me of a 'board tourist' to fuck off
>get accused of wanting to talk about vidya

Huh?

>>5403010
He literally couldn't stand it.

Wait. People actually are caring about this video game thing? Like caring about video game "journalism"? It's a medium run by a handful of companies that shove the same games down audiences' throats. What integrity has there ever been in video games?

Alt-lit is as good as dead, so who cares? Do you really think people will give a shit about Tao Lin in a year? The tide is turning.

>>5403100
It's because people are naive. Why they would think a sex scandal is some new thing is ridiculous.

>>5403025
>this is what fat NEETS who sit around all day and play Nintendo actually believe

Your entire hobby has a massive social stigma for a reason. You're all losers.

>>5403101
Tao Lin is the one guy who transcends it all. Alt-lit is dead but Tao Lin is significant as fuck. Like the other guy said, he's another great novel away from being a Joyce-tier literary giant.

Why of all of 4chan does /lit/ have the most fallacious arguments?

>>5403101

Agreed. The bigger scam is the infestation of SJW bullshit in American letters. That rises well above alt-lit.

>>5403086
The Rumpus :^)

>>5403108
>The bigger scam is the infestation of SJW bullshit in American letters. That rises well above alt-lit.

No, it doesn't.

>>5403097

>>tell sjw fag

You're one of these hopeless adolescents who throws this term around all the time like those "red-pilled" kids, aren't you?

>>5403101
This is a good point in a general way but I think that some smaller indie publishers will definitely stick around and they'll probably have their own preferences and niches. It's kinda inevitable I guess. Most of the indie presses I can think of are more concerned with translation, but I think Coffee House Press and OR may be around in the future. Dzanc probably will be too. That said, those are NOT the kinds of cutesy Tumblrites affiliated with some of the other indie sites out there. Anyway, I guess I meant to offer a little hope and say that all these folks had to start somewhere.

>>5403113
>>5403107

>>5403115

Thought so.

>>5403108
>infestation of SJW
Someone should be logging SJW entryism.

>>5403106
>another great novel

There was a first?

I enjoyed Taipei but it's pretty clear that that is the best Tao will ever write and it's certainly not a "great" novel.

>>5403100
>>5403100
> Like caring about book "journalism"? It's a medium run by a handful of companies that shove the same games down audiences' throats. What integrity has there ever been in books?

>>5403104

I want to live where you live.

In most places, readers are more likely to be categorized as losers -- not dudes who casually play video games.

And this is coming from someone who stopped playing them years ago.

>>5403124
missed a "game" you get the point.

>>5403100
>Like caring about video game "journalism"?
I don't get that either but I don't disagree with their sentiment.

Whatever journalism it is, there are standards, and whining and threatening other journalists to not say anything bad because it might hurt someone's feelings has no right to write outside of their personal blog. Certainly not calling themselves a journalist. That's disgusting and I'd hate them too if they got to have that on their resume

>>5403117
gg wp gl hf roflcopter

But really. How pretentious are you? On a scale of 1 - 10? Would you consider yourself a narcissist?

>>5403127
So this is kind of a stupid distinction, but I think there's an argument that people who casually play video games are not who is being discussed when we use the term "gamers."

>any position that disagrees with my poorly cultivated sensibility is SJW

this is how the degenerate mind actually works

leave the video games behind and start acting your age, this degeneracy is most regretful to see

>>5403124
The publishing companies I enjoy either specialize in academic works, translations, or shine a spotlight on lesser known, out of print in America books.

There is no video game equivalent.

>>5402913

>alt-lit NY literary scene

a bunch of fucking autistic liberal homosexuals. The universal tropes of man are emasculated by their very existence...pussyhearted faggots, hairy legs and short shorts, lisps rendered fashionable i want to smash bricks into their black rimmed glasses and fuck their manpussies into the cold black earth.
by the time you wrap your mind around their ninth order irony, its too late, by then you're already taking huge cocks up the ass, sarcastically

>>5403134
Actually, most studies defined gamers has someone who has played a game on an electronic device in the past 30 days.

>>5403127
how old are you
where do you live
what is your social milieu

>>5403137
I do deem this post screencap worthy for forever humor

>>5403139
That's good and all but one of the big fat ideas in this whole mess is that there are a lot of in group and out group dynamics going on. This has been talked to death in certain circles as specifically applies to Anita Sarkeesian, Jack Thompson, etc. They haven't proven themselves as "gamers" and thus they're dismissed by a lot of what's often called the "hard core" gamers. I'm just saying that a "gamer" usually isn't someone who plays COD on the weekend. In English it technically means one who plays games. Online it means you're sold out for companies, games, etc. You can see this in every one of the articles mentioned in that Reddit link I posted in this thread.

>>5403134

>buying into the notion that all gamers can be grouped into one category
>implying that gamers are inherently white hetero-cis-male
>ignoring huge POC segment of the gamer population

Shitlord detected.

>>5403137

Epic stan post fakkk yes. You're back!

>>5403148

>>buying into the notion that all gamers can be grouped into one category

yes. it's called "degenerate".

>>5403136
Video games have been being used in research for multi-agent simulations, brain development, healing brain injury, training pilots, drivers...I mean given time, I could go on to create a huge list of the academic merit of video games.

There are many companies and even individuals who work on translations for video games.

It's a labor of love for a lot of these individuals and companies. Their main goal is to bring to light these games that have too small an audience because they aren't translated.

I mean fucking try harder.

>>5403148
Look at you making huge assumptions. The only distinction I wanted to make is the one I made here >>5403146
If you wonder why more and more people don't take you seriously, this is why. Durrhurr I know what #NotYourShield is.

>>5403143

Mid-twenties, flyover state, middle class.

I'm as average as it gets.

>>5403137
>emasculated
>hairy legs and short shorts
Rhodesia wants a word.

>>5403152
That distinction is bullshit. They aren't taken seriously because of the way they take actual criticism of their work. When told of the holes in their theories, instead of partaking in the conversation that they claim to want to start - that gamers are more than ready to partake in - they can't handle the criticism. They go immediately into namecalling and slander and self-doxxing.

Do you make it a habit to look at something for a few minutes and then pretend you know everything about it?

>>5403150

he honestly thinks i play video games, and came here from /v/

>>5403151

>Video games have been being used in research for multi-agent simulations, brain development, healing brain injury, training pilots, drivers...I mean given time, I could go on to create a huge list of the academic merit of video games.

lol this is the equivalent of saying that you masturbate all day because you've seen academic studies showing the benefit of cardiovascular activities

none of this actually speaks to your own degenerate applications of them

>I mean fucking try harder.

fucking lol these kids

/lit/ - Social Justice Literature

>>5403137
So manly. Show it dem autistic liberal homosexuals tiger! If only they were as hardcore as you, ranting on 4chan with your trip on. What has humanity come to?! We should've known better. Carry on good sir.

let's be honest: the real reason why there are no scandals in literature anymore is because the audience has been whittled down to mfa students, mfa profs, middle aged women, and residents of vermont.

there is no audience to provide outrage even if there were something to be outraged by.

>>5403164
>Social Justice Warriors are bad mkay
>We need more social justice from the social justice
WOAH! It's like inception. Why don't you guys just fuck and get it over with. Really.

>>5403159
you're making yourself look a fool

the military actually has made games

>>5403157
You sound like >>5403148
I understand the conversation. That's why I was replying to >>5403127 which you didn't look back to. Come on folks, this isn't that hard.

>>5403175
You're making yourself look like a fool. Do you play these military games?

>>5403173

>>We need more social justice from the social justice

This thread really is a thing of beauty.

It's amazing that they don't see this shit.

>>5402981
worst post ever read on /lit/

>>5403171
Do Jk Rowling and Terry Pratchet ever get it on?

Does Stephanie Meyer have daily man trains?

>>5403164
I wish I knew what /lit/ was like before these awful people took the board over. I heard tell people had open discussions about books, make offensive jokes, and rib each other without fear of permabanning.

It really isn't the same at all but nice try. Also you spoke of how you apply the academic books you're championing where? What have you done with all of these academic books you're purportedly read?

I mean, at this very moment I'm using games to practice some rudimentary French sooo your court, friend.

>>5402913
I've read interviews involving about ten to twenty publishers and they say a huge chunk of their contracts are a result of recommendations either by established agencies or other writers. If you just send in a book your chances are slim to none. None if you don't know the correct procedure.

>>5403190

>I mean, at this very moment I'm using games to practice some rudimentary French sooo your court, friend.

the best you can brag is that you're using video games for language aims?

oh wow way to defend it nice move ace lol

>>5403171
>mfa students, mfa profs, middle aged women, and residents of vermont

Explains both the pretentiousness AND the irrationality. Underrated fucking post.

>>5403168

thereupon a particularly affected member of the aforementioned male-vagina-clan felt the deep burn of truth, and raised his high pitched voice in protest, armed, as always, with the very sarcasm he was being shamed for, the very sarcasm so inherent to their passive aggressive manlet existence

quod erat demonstrandum


tl;dr you just proved my point you fucking rancid faggot, kill yourself

>>5403178
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/America%27s_Army

No but it's a far cry from linking masturbation to cardiovascular consequences. You're acting more juvenile than an extreme Mountain Dew guzzler

>>5403196

Still waiting on a concrete way you've applied your books that are so much better than video games for learning.

>>5403203

>Still waiting on a concrete way you've applied your books that are so much better than video games for learning.

this thread

lol

this thread

>>5403196
Brag? You mean show an example of how I'm applying video games, at this very moment, to something not "degenerate"? Which is something that you've asked for?

>>5403190
This merit conversation is dumb as hell. Games are largely without merit along with most things in the media. They can be analyzed, sure. A whole major of cultural studies has bullshitted it's way with capital I Inclusion of every kind of media and event using literary analysis as a way to talk about those things. But that doesn't mean The Walking Dead or Fez or The Last of Us or Half Life, etc. create any meaningful discussion.

Another big problem is that there aren't that many essays on games to begin with. There isn't much discussion going on.

Merit in another sense might be possible. Sure. You can stage experiments with games (to some degree) and do other shit, but in terms of "lawl Ebert was wrong and is a durt bagg hurr" I'm not so convinced. Not that games aren't art. They are. So is that tissue I just blew my nose with. But being art and being worth discussion, thought, etc. that doesn't rely on...nostalgia is another thing.
I'm not even sure why I've responded to so much of this thread already. This probably isn't worth it.

>>5403202
>Believing there's only one guy against you!

I know the games exist. It's stupid to say that you get anything comparable to what those games provide from playing your platformers ot shoot-'em-ups. I enjoy playing some Super Smash Brothers whenever I see my old friends from school, but I'm not going to pretend it's doing me any good.

>>5403199
>look at meeeee, all hardcore taking names and kicking ass, stomping /lit/ like godzilla
>rrrrrrrrrrrrrrr
>watch out tumbler here I come

>>5403199


HAHAHAHAHA

Fucking rekt.

I swear to you mate, they don't even realize they do it. They're literally incapable of not speaking with such feminine and sideways evasiveness.
If you tallied up the time they spend being 'sarcastic' and evasive vs actually manning up their words you'd see that your charges don't even scratch the surface.

>>5403208
There is nothing that can be said about a video game that can be said about a book. Not to mention writing is thousands of years older, and printing, hundreds than video games, video games are doing very, very well for themselves in being used for an individual to explore some sort of idea or perspective.

From being gay to multiverse theory.

Some games are made to be wastes of time. Just to entertain you. Others send messages. Others try to create discussions. Just like books.

>>5403202

Wow way to sperg and miss the entire point.

I'm shitting on you for espousing academic defenses of the practice that have nothing to do with your daily use and interest in it. All of these academic applications have nothing to do with you and your shitty manchild games that you play during your "gaming time".

Try to get a fucking clue, would you? Thanks.

>>5403216

>>5403216
It's because they can't use the juicy, cutting words like "queer", or "dope", or "moron".

All they can do is passive-aggressively greentext sarcasm.

I see them all the time, I'm a journalist in New York City. Fuckin' yuppie "writer" fucks who think they're special.

>>5403209
I think this is getting way off track

I'm just saying he wasn't wrong, games are practical in studies

>>5403213

>trying to save face after a post like that

how embarrassing for you lol

>>5403221
And you're confidently telling other people you've never met how THEY'VE used video games throughout THEIR lives?

And also even if the guy has never played any sort of game other than, like, pong, what does that have to do with the merit of games as a whole?

>>5403230
>waaaaah waaaaah
>greentext sarcasm
>stupid sexy New York journalists

>>5403199
10/10 now we have a thread going

>>5403213


haha you've already been had, faggot.

>>5403239

Mankids ITT officially upgraded to BTFO status.

Former New Yorker fiction intern here.

It was well known within the NYer that the fiction section is the worst part of the mag. Deb Triesman acknowledged the fact that few subscribers read it. Nevertheless, the editorial board continues to run it out of a) a sense of tradition and b) charity. Charity in the sense that fiction is a dying art that needs to be championed, etc. etc.

I also came to strongly suspect that they purposefully chose foreign / ethnic / female authors to offset the preponderance of white male authors who pen the mag's non-fiction. Kind of like how corporations will create make-work positions in HR or some other unimportant department and stock them full of minority women. (Hilariously enough, the fiction editorial section of the mag is, itself, composed primarily of women and/or minorities.)

Finally, a tip:

Don't submit your fiction the New Yorker.

In the past 10+ years, not one piece of fiction have been taken from slush. Zero.

The best you can hope for is to get your name bumped up on an internal list of authors to watch out for. I don't think this has any impact on whether you will be printed in the future, or whether the editors read this list at all. My suspicion is that it's only in place to give interns some sense that their work there isn't meaningless, even though it clearly is.

>>5403233
Yeah how fucking embarrassing. I'm really shaken how much I was owned by the trip fag that copy pasted a lating phrase to seem all deep and profound. Newsflash! You're still a 14 year old (and or retarded) and your mothers cunt is deeper than you ever will be. I know it because I've been there.

>>5403221
So if someone doesn't use video games academically then video games aren't academically useful?

So again, since you're spouting on about the academic merit of books, then I assume the fact that that's how you're using them is what proves their merit?

That just doesn't make sense.

>>5403239
>>stupid sexy New York journalists
What? I said I'm a journalist. I don't write free verse on napkins in a Williamsburg cafe, you queer fuck.

>>5403253
When were you and intern? I know a guy who interned for them maybe five years back.

>>5403136
>The publishing companies I enjoy either specialize in academic works, translations, or shine a spotlight on lesser known, out of print in America books
>>5403151
>It's a labor of love for a lot of these individuals and companies. Their main goal is to bring to light these games that have too small an audience because they aren't translated.

>>5403221
>I'm shitting on you for espousing academic defenses of the practice that have nothing to do with your daily use and interest in it.
See what I mean, this has gotten off track and we aren't the people who were the parents of these replies

If you're making fun of CoD fanboys eating pizza every weekend for their gamathons you'll find no argument here

>>5403254

>Yeah how fucking embarrassing.

agreed, lol

>>5403265

About two years ago.

>>5403258
Bloging about your doll collection doesn't make you a journalist anon.

>>5403253
wow, this is a quality post. why is it so rare to find good information on this board?

>>5403254
>>5403213
This eternal rectal simmer has to be chronicled for generations

>>5403253
Assuming everything you said was true, as someone who has worked for that type of company:

If you were looking for book reviews/up-and-comings/ all of that that at least tried to be objective and contained something substantial, where would you look?

>>5403265
*an

Jesus. I start writing like a drunk near 1:00 AM

>>5403271
Probably not the guy I know then.

>>5403272
>Bloging about your doll collection doesn't make you a journalist anon.

More misspelled, passive aggressive snark. Exactly what I expected, you dope.

>>5403254

Now it's just sad...

>>5403279
When was the last time got laid?

>>5403278

I seriously cannot parse your question. Can you restate that?

>>5403254

You are the most riled in this thread by a significant degree. Bump because I want more people to share in your misery.

>>5403286
Yeah, sorry. It's late.

Where do you learn about books that are coming out that you wanna read?

>>5403253
>I also came to strongly suspect that they purposefully chose foreign / ethnic / female authors

A few years ago, yeah, but I feel like this has happened a little less so of late.

I usually skip the Fiction section though, yeah.

>>5403254

>Yeah how fucking embarrassing. I'm really shaken how much I was owned by the trip fag

the total emotional collapse in this post.
i love this thread so much lol.

>>5403287
>>5403306
4chan post of the last 30 days for sure

>>5403275

Dude who was the NYer intern here.

I think most of the best posters left when it was taken over by hyper-sensitive, hyper-leftist fags. I just came back now, after a buddy msged me that this thread was taking place. Used to frequent more often a few years ago, then tapered off and only come back occasionally.

The last best thing that happened on /lit/ were those threads that led to the development of "/lit/'s Guide to Right-Wing Literature." That was hilarious and fun and gave me about ten new authors to discover.

>>5403254
tushy tussling intensifies

>>5403314
Please stick around some

I still think /lit/ is good so it's nice to see someone pop in to post in their relevant thread

>>5403314
Don't take this personal, but how fucking stupid do you have to be to take an internship at the NYer when you're, whatever you are. No shitposting, I'm serious.

>>5403320
Still going hardcore. I see.

>>5403329

I'd imagine even if you see through NYer bullshit, taking an internship there is pretty darn helpful for your career.

>>5403285
Oh, I get it, you get laid every night and you went to one of Tao Lin's loft parties.

Fuck you and your band of queers that ruins the entire city's literary reputation. Half of you didn't even grow up here.

>Look to check what all the asshurt is about
>Find out it was caused by Stan
>Stan is back, in top form and better than ever

My heart is swollen with happiness, I..

>>5403335
Yeah, I'd take an internship there, and I'm not even into the NYC fiction scene.

>>5403293

Got it. Thanks.

Unfortunately, I'm the wrong person to ask. I've given up on contemporary lit. The majority of the stuff I've been reading recently has come from authors that Borges mentioned, cited, or anthologized toward the end of his life. (The latter is listed at the end of the Penguin Collected Non-Fictions.)

I've also been re-reading a ton of Melville.

>>5403335
>>5403344
Sounds like you guys are jews.

>>5403345
Fair enough. Thanks for the time.

>>5403278
I really enjoy the New York Review of Books. Just be prepared for some headline happy vendor story every issue. No /pol/ here but it's kind of hilarious that there is seriously one major Jewish/Holocaust/Nazi article in the fucking magazine every single issue. Aside from that, it's usually very well written and its reviews go into interesting avenues that are usually not found in other reviews (to be honest, the book in review is usually just a starting point for whatever the writer wants to talk about).

I have no idea what you mean by objective literary criticism.

Capcha: gsoeri Synagogue

right again

>>5403329

It made sense at the time, I didn't know any better, and my peers were jealous.

>>5403350
No, but my editor is a Jew.

>>5403337
I don't know how to insult, I really don't. I suppose you consider this an acomplishment on your side, but it isn't. Truth is, we already won and we're everywhere. You will never have a career. I call the others tomorrow and tell them about that right wing intern at the New Yorker, should be easy to find.

>>>/pol/

>>5402979
A dude got cheated, openly explains how his then girlfriend fucked people to get both of them into the news circle, people are mad at her not at boyfriends who thinks that cheating is the bad part and not a rotten system that got him all the money and attention he has. People get mad at the cheater instead than the industry.

>>5403362
I have a career. I don't work for the New Yorker. I work the crime desk of one of the city's dailies.

You and your Northern county/out of state trash are a bunch of no talent morons. You'll never find me. You'll never take me alive!

Why am I being redirected to /pol/, by the way?

>>5403355

>tfw even discussing g-d's chosen people in new york literature can get you a 3-day ban in /lit/

Has this changed since I was last here? Or are people still reporting others for purported /pol/ raids whenever the topic of Holocaust articles in the NYRB becomes a topic of discussion?

Also, yes, I like NYRB, too. And yes, anyone with even the lowest perception can see the thumb on the scales. Spoiler: read the masthead.

>>5403376
Because you belong there. I can smell it.

>>5403219
Most avid defenders of gaming would disagree with your first sentence. They'd argue games are inherently transformative and built around decisions and choices where as most other media (movies, novels, poetry, etc.) isn't.

Sure there are all kinds of games. I liked Bioshock Infinite. I thought about it. I saw how no one talking about that game noted the Panopticon suggestions in Elizabeth's tower. I saw how it was a fandom thing. It was about making gifs on tumblr or talking about how edgy and mysterious the ending was or how totally untrue to reality it was. Those are shit-tier questions and conversations. None of that has anything to do with what the game even says or how different things the player is presented with make a statement. If there were more of those conversations I'd see it. The only person talking about games who has impressed me on this front is Errant Signal over on Youtube. Games are almost always more interested in fun rather than structure or what can be mined from connections made throughout, etc. The only outlet outside of that is in the indie sphere and so many of those are entirely novelty without substance. The fun is why people are buying games. They like being sucked in and often being made powerful by the game. I don't think it has anything to say about what a powerful or thought provoking medium video games are.

You can throw the whole books have been around longer but it doesn't make much of a difference here. That's all fine and good as a crutch but it shouldn't automatically be your handicap.

>>5403385
Because I took a couple of digs at you and your limp-dicked friends?

You can smell it on me, huh?

Why don't you tell me your name? You seem like a real tough guy.

>>5403362

>"Hello, Condé Nast. How many I direct your call?"

Uh, uh. *swallow* Uh, can you -- I wanna talk to, uh -- the fiction, uh, of the New Yor --

>"Can you hold please?"

S-sure, you too.

* Ten minute wait followed by a click and a dial tone.

>>5403388
Video games have potential but it hasn't been utilized yet because either the technology wasn't there yet or because it's mostly just young people playing. It's still kinda frowned upon to play video games as an adult.

>>5403395
Hahaha

Thanks for the laugh. This exactly what this tough guy would do.

>>5403388
That's because I fucked up and my first sentence should say 'can't be said'.

>>5403403

It's like these people have never lived or worked in the city.

"I'll call the New Yorker and tell them they have a right-wing intern!"

God, what a fag.

>>5403402
Uh yeah. Hasn't been utilized. We know. I know. I've been saying that almost nothing worth writing or thinking about has come out of it. And yet that's considered a terrible indictment.

>>5403219
>>5403388

The idea of videogames as art could never be defended on top of their capacity of being like other arts. Music isn't an art because it can do the same as painting, it's actually its own art becasue it can do different things.

If a game uses a literary resource it isn't closer to anything but a game using a literary resource. Just having topics or themes or analysis of whatever. Books don't have to have any of those to validate themselves and you could do any of those things in a board game.

For videogames to be art they have to generate feelings and emotions through their own medium in ways that couldn't be replicated by others. Art isn't a matter of being worth or enjoyable or whatever definition you chose for "deep".

>>5403391
I don't know it's just something about you that screams >>>/pol/. Like there was a special kind of pheromone.

Are you seriously denying you go there, or is it that I was able to sniff you out like that?

>>5403417

Crimereporterbro, he's asking to sniff your balls. You should feel pleased: it's a sign of submission.

>>5403416
I wasn't making the argument that they have to be meritorious to be art. I was saying that just because something's art (the definition I'll be using for art is "anything created") doesn't mean it's worth two shits. That's it. And you can't get away from analysis. If one can analyze a movie and understand the visual language utilized one can probably do the same thing with written language. Seeing structures, parallels, etc. isn't that hard and that's mostly what's meant in the humanities by "analysis."

>>5403417
wow

>>5403411
Are there any actual writers involved with video games or is it just the programmers?

>>5403376
>Why am I being redirected to /pol/, by the way?
Because weak willed and uninspired people have no bite to follow their whimper of a bark so they hide behind a label like the cowards they are

And if you don't conform to that you're a bigot nazi bigot racist bigot and belong on /pol/ you bigot

>>5403416
They do that by allowing the player to make choices that affect the outcome of the game. It used to be a win state and a fail state, but modern games often have many different end states based of off player choices.

Video games are art because they took all the other arts and then made them interactive on an individual level, and sometimes even in a group level.

>>5403416
>it's actually its own art becasue it can do different things.
Games have that going for them

A simple puzzle game is an experience of its own.

>>5403438
Seems like most games these days are pretty linear but a few exceptions.

>>5403438
Unless those choices are openly mocked by something like Bioshock Infinite where the choices made throughout the game have very little bearing on what happens next. This isn't general enough and the fact that more folks don't disarm this question immediately is part of why games aren't taken seriously.

>>5403432
Not that I know of. Tom Bissell who publishes occasionally in a variety of places wrote the script for the last Gears of War game but that was supposedly a stinker.

>>5403432

From what I understand, there are. Anthony Burch was the writer for a popular series of games called Borderland. He's the fellow in the pic related.

>>5403443
Gears of War? Surprising. That game seems like the avatar of bro culture, if you know what I'm trying to say.

>>5403410
"Uhm, Mr. Remnick, have you heard that you might have, er, you have a right-wing intern?"

"OH MY GOD SHUT THE BUILDING DOWN CALL BILL BRATTON. Thanks for bringing this to my attention son, how'd you like to be featured in next issue's 'Culture Comment'?"

>>5403417
Of course I go on /pol/, everyone does. You obviously go on it. I was just curious why any of the statements I made had you redirecting me there, though the comments of some people below you seem to have clarified it for me.

>>5403426
There was a story once going around the Central Park Precinct that a cop caught a bum living in a tent, and arrested him, you know? He wasn't looking to give this bum a hard time, just wanted to get him in the system and hopefully get him some help, because the guy clearly had some mental issues. Anyway, supposedly the guy kept asking everyone who came by if he could sniff their balls. To be honest, I don't believe the story at all, but you reminded me of that.

>>5403433
Dubs confirm.

>>5403449
Jesus.

>>5403456
Definitely. Granted Bissell's more of a public intellectual than a novelist, poet, or story writer, but yeah....Oh well.

>>5403428
>in the humanities
>I'll be using for art is "anything created"
I don't know if I should be speaking to you as someone interested in the subject or someone just sharing their opinion based on what they feel right now. It's not an insult is just the nature of 4chan.

Art couldn't be defined as that and if you want to define things without thinking about them then I define videogames as "anything you play".

Imitation of another art isn't justification to be art, and analyzing has nothing to do with that. I can analyze when a little kid tells a lie or when I see forms in the clouds. To be art you need your own resources to create mening, just like music isn't compatible with painting. Until videogames separate themselves from other narrative forms as much as those two things are they won't be anything else than entertainment indivisible from table games.

>>5403449
the thing that's been getting to me as i wade through this swamp of shit scandal is just how ugly and horrible all the participants are

they're physically, socially, and morally repulsive. the entire lot.

>>5402973

7:15

>irregardless

I stopped listening there.

>>5403438
Having a space of effect could be the basis for the unique characteristics of vidja as art. But you need to make something more than "you can kill more guys" or "you can make this context look different than it was before", I'm not sure how much has been put into practise around those things.

>>5403461
I would've suspected Shadow of the Colossus or so, but not that. But to be fair, we don't know how much control he had. I suspect none. At least it's like that in terms of movies.

>>5403340
>>5403340

haha, sorry ace... i'm not really "back" in any meaningful sense.

just a rare moment of nostalgia..

>>5403449
who is this degenerate
I know 4chan has spoiled the word but this is an appropriate use of pre-chan degenerate

>>5403463
No offense taken. It's really late here, but I don't really understand why art couldn't be defined as anything that's created.

>>5403476

He's a cuckold, son. He watches his wife have sex with other men. He enjoys it.

>>5403469
The guy who did Earth Bound is a published intellectual. His stuff kinda has a literary air to it in terms of how his characters speak, the themes discussed, etc.

>>5403253
Harpers is better than the New Yorker in pretty much all departments.

Not that Harpers is any good.

>>5403443
Stanley Parable.

You seem to have an already solidified views and I didn't come to this thread with the idea to change them. But on the honor system, I'll try harder to see where you're coming from and you try harder to see where I'm coming from. I think your experience with games is a lot narrower than you think it is and your write-offs are premature.

The only thing I DO agree with is that even games with something to talk about don't get talked about.

But then again, going back to the very beginning of this thread, look at the people who were controlling the talking...gamers are in the process of ousting those people.

>>5403487
I like Harper's. Hell, I like The New Yorker. But they're not great magazines,

>>5403489
The Stanley Parable was pseudo-intellectual trash. My friend had me play it. Was I supposed to get something? A silly narrator, wow how original! A repeating plot, what, was the line supposed to be a character? Well then so what? It was just dumb.

>>5403253
what about poetry at the NYer?

;'( ?

>>5403468
I think one of the problems is that the developers try to emulate movies rather than tv shows, or books. The pacing of a two hour movie doesn't work with a game. Something like The Wire could be cool for an adventure like game.

>>5403480
Because chairs are created too and you create a peice of shit after eating your food.
If you put it as created in an abstract plane you're still short because you create partial ideas, every work needs to be conformed by a series of creations. And many things that wouldn't be considered art (nor would need to) are also constructed the same way,it's not the same a speach by obama than a monologue by spalding gray. They wouldn't want to do the same thing either, it's not a matter of "only academia can tell what's art".
Defining art is an incredibly hard process and it's the basis for a lot of ideas. You can't just invent a definition on the go. Kant doesn't just get a throw away definition of conciousness, for example, and it's a concept that if asked anyone would say that they understand what it is.

>>5403480

>I don't really understand why art couldn't be defined as anything that's created.

That's perfect, because Duchamp just called. He wants to piss in your mouth, sign R. Mutt on your cheek, and submit you to the Armory Show.

I think you should go for it, kid. What an opportunity.

>>5403489
Sure. There are examples. I think it's funny you mention the Stanley Parable which would probably work better as a book as its mechanics don't quite add anything to the experience.

I'm not the most experienced gamer in the world here. I get that. But there's so much stuff that's not interesting. I like aspects of The Last of Us. I played a lot of it, but there's almost nothing left to really discuss there. All my literary and musical analogies probably won't work here because "who reads, lawl?" But I get a lot more out of Ezra Pound's poetry or Wallace Stevens.

That said, I also get pissed off that there isn't a meaningful discussion about the basic change in FPS design since Quake 3...but anyway. Yeah, maybe if the incestuous folks get ousted things will get better. I'm still not moved by The Shadow of the Colossus or GTA IV, V, etc. though.

>>5403486
>Earth Bound
Makes sense. Great game. It's a little childish in style but doesn't talk down to kids. I mean, it seems like the guy wanted to tell a story first and happened to create a video game.

>>5403498

You know everything I said about fiction at the New Yorker? Double that. That's poetry at the New Yorker.

>inb4 b-b-b-but muh charles simic

>>5403485
That's sad
if he didn't look like a fuccboi and fleshed out his build a bit he could pull a better one than the one he has

>>5403499
Any pacing wouldn0t work, that's the problem. And its something that will stay there always that you have a producer present, the same way movies were emulating books at the same time that truly inventive authors where expanding what only film could do.
Again, to make the distinction clearer, you have pacing when you look at a painting and you have rhythm in music, they are different things and that makes them great.

>>5403505
Man, I would sign up for that. At the very least it would make a great story about this zombie having his way with you, /d/ would envy the fuck of you.

>>5403512
Now do the cartoons! now do the cartoons!

>>5403500
>>5403505
Well I'm glad I didn't have to spell this out.

Yeah. I'd argue that a chair is art. It might not be worth an essay but it's art. Also, I don't think this is my own personal definition. From what I understand of most contemporary artists they more or less adhere to the definition I'm going by. It's funny that you refer to a philosopher when many of them are known to create their own specific definitions for whatever specific thing it is that they're talking about.

>>5403516
So you're saying the problem is that video games haven't found their particular style of pacing yet that could fit the medium?

>>5403522

The Caption Contest is the worst thing that's happened to the New Yorker since Harold Ross hired John Updike.

FIGHT ME IN REAL LIFE IF YOU DISAGREE.

>>5403143
average for america
try again

>>5403542
I...I like it...

>>5403523
>ts funny that you refer to a philosopher when many of them are known to create their own specific definitions for whatever specific thing it is that they're talking about.
That's not how philosophy works. You have schools of thoughs that come from certain authors, either following, rejecting or mixing.
A chair isn't a work of art because it was made for you to sit, you bought it to sit, you sit. You can make a work of art that is a chair, you can turn a chair in a work of art; but every single chair is made.

Duchamp's readymades, just like Picasso's milk box, works on the idea that art is that which the artist aproves as such, proposing a work of identification of the singularity among the sea of copies. That doesn't make everything art.

>>5403314
just use the catalog and ignore the shit like a normal person, fuck

>>5403550

Give me your address, faggot. I'm a plane trip away from showing you the true meaning of Joe Gould's Secret.

>>5403526
They haven't found their definition of whatever they could have that stupid people like me will call pacing to make it easier to understand. I mean, whatever they have it's there, but it needs to be worked out and diferentiated from, again, a board game. If you can do the same with a piece of paper then the video part isn't really important and it's as much art as Clue.

God. Have any of you ever heard the phrase "It's all who you know?" I'm not saying it's right, but it's fucking true.

In every single field in human existence, it ultimately comes down to connections. This is why they make college students go to networking events.

Journalism, literature, business, music, fucking politics. It's all about your connections. So bitch about it all you want, just realize that nepotism runs the fucking world.

>>5403555

And Duchamp approves of you being his pissboy. So why are we arguing?

>>5403564
Yes, the kids from /v/ have left or calmed down. We are discussing semiotics, aesthetic philosophy and two guys are gonne rumble over funny captions.

>>5403566
I doubt he aprobes since if he could it would lose the zombie angle that makes it such an unique chance.

>>5402913
Its all the same "movement". With so many jobless humanity graduates, the failures are undoubtedly going to form groups where they can claim a standing, like in video games or alt lit.

>>5403560
It's fun and whimsical though...and if you come up with a funny one that cute girl in eleventh grade english thinks you're smart and you make her laugh.

Shit, did you know Stanley Tucci directed the movie version of Joe Gould? I never knew he was a director.

>>5403564
This is true, I probably wouldn't have my job if it weren't for a mutual appreciation between my editor and I of J.J. Cale.

>>5403567
Sorry, jumped the gun on commenting. Point still stands. I can take or leave the New Yorker caption contest but I've seen some good ones.

>>5403555
Right but that idea of the readymade means that what makes art is how we choose to see an object. I don't think this extension is particularly difficult to make. I can take my kitchen table and put it in a gallery meant to be walked through by people to see my art and, uh, yeah, it's art.

Philosophy: Sometimes. Sure. I'm making the point that philosophers often define a word even if it's a well known and used term like Being or a paradox, etc.

>>5403575
I just enjoy it because it's fun to do with people. I don't really like seeing the results. Though this won't be the first time a belligerent guy I've just met beats me up over humorous middle-class cartoons.

>>5403576
But they define that word under a certain set of rules that they chose to express something. If they don't have any need they usually take previous definitions they like and work with them developing the previous meaning, again Kant would be the go to example I guess.
If you want to make a ready made now a days you need to do a lot more than just show it to people. If it doesn't generate an unique reaction I think it's a pretty easy rule of thumb to dictamine that it doesn't have artistic value.

>>5403509
The Stanley parable is all about the illusion of choice. Other than a choose your own adventure book I don't think another medium would really suffice. You aren't making choices in a book other than to continue or to stop. And both those choices are also present in the game, except the 'continue' choice has many different outcomes controlled by the player. A book couldn't do that as easily. Or maybe even at all.

Also I think you're looking into the wrong games if you're trying to be moved. If you want a deep story I can suggest' To the Moon'. I don't know what you personally find moving. You have to find it. For me personally, emerging from the vault in fallout 3 was incredibly moving. It was the first time I played a game that immense. I was at I think thirteen so at a really big time in my life. There are so many factors that make something moving that it's impossible to say what will move you.

But imagine if I read the Harry Potter series, some Twilight and the Game of Thrones books and then I came to /lit/ and said "I see the start of something substantial but I just don't think books are there yet".

That's what this sounds like. I'd wager you're much better read than I am and I'm better played. But I'm trying to immerse myself more into reading before I form such opinions.

Also I personally believe the discussion of game lineage and mechanics is different than discussing about message, but I'm interested in both. I'm just talking only of the former now.

>>5403580
I've checked the possibilites they give you to vote and they all suck so much more than anything I hear people come up with in the moment.

The only think I would defend of the new yorker is Deborah Treisman. I have a crush on her since a podcast in which an author said a completly idiotic interpretation of a book and she calmly explained to her why she was an idiot in the most socratic and educated way. I laughed and clapped and I'm not even american.

>>5403596
Listen, I enjoy reading The New Yorker on the bathroom and stuff, it's fun. When Simon Rich gets published, it's great. I just don't consider it really an intellectual magazine. It's fun, and interesting, but that's all it is.

I don't feel smarter after reading it.

>>5403590
I'm the other guy not so much into the "vidja is art" camp chiming in if you don't mind.
For a very long while books weren't art. A lot of people would reject the idea to this day. Since a narration uses tools to fabricate an emotion, it's pretty much the same as making food. Only that it exists on an abstract plane, which isn't relate to art at all since music and painting don't need to be abstract.
Poetry does challenge the stance of text art, and from poetry you can go to narrative poetry and then just accept narrative as art. But still, it's not such a clear thing.

>>5403584
I think we're one the same page here and using different language. Your last sentence is what I'm saying when I say that something can still be art but that it's not automatically worth thinking about or looking at the different patterns in it and how they interrelate and what they might tell us about the piece. I'm saying artistic value's different from the definition of art or at least that something can have very low artistic value and still be art. I don't think that's particularly troublesome.

This is getting dumb really fast. Do you write off Hawthorne's notebooks? Are they not art because no one was supposed to read them? What about Witold Gombrowicz diary? Kafka's diary? Can they be read as essays even if they weren't intended to be such?

>>5403590
I will concede however it is much easier to find substantial books than it is games. But honestly that is because of the age of the medium and the fact that it wasn't imagined for that purpose. It's being shaped that way. And in the same way that games went from being mindless trash to starting to have some substance, I feel books are going from something substantial to being a few gems among heaps of trash.

Video games are trying to be books while books are trying to be like video games,man healu

>>5403600
I don't buy it or anything, I enjoy a lot the fiction podcast and Deborah makes them so much better, but even there it's mostly 50+ year old people reading fiction from 70+ years ago.

>>5403600
>liking simon rich

confirmed ultrapleb, wow

>>5403608
>Not liking Simon Rich

confirmed ultrapleb, wow

>>5403612

Now that you mention it, that was a rash insult. I'm sorry.

Simon Rich is still the Jimmy Fallon of literary comedy and you should be ashamed that you like his work.

>>5403608
>>5403612
My name is Harold Bloom. I find Simon Rich to be simplistic, reductive, and self-exiled to a maximum of two or three topics he beats to death. But he makes me laugh. B+

>>5403603
Well, it's hard to tell. I'm not the one to decide what's art and what's not. We can only susbcribe to a certain criteria and try to follow through, trying to perfect it as we go until we are happy with it. If something wasn't mean to be art, wasn't meant to be seen and it s publicized around the world for editorial profit, I can't really accept that as art. It's a work in progress turned product.
Was Hawthorne that crazy guy who did I huge fantasy saga and died withotu showing it? If not I'm not sure who he is. But in a diferent post I mentioned that even narrative has its problems to be really defined as art. If you have difficulties differencing it from something that couldn't be art just by switching parts of the process, just how a ficiton could be seen as just emotional baking, then it's hard to defend it as art. Not impossible, but incredibly hard at 3 in the morning.

>>5403590
>>5403590
I played games for the vast majority of my life and left after realizing there was something more interesting in almost every other medium. I grew up with an NES and spent a lot of time with the SNES, N64, and PS1-3. I've played Fallout 3. It's not a bad game per se but it did not make me want to play more than 2-3 hours of it. I've been there. At this point I play a few single player games a year because I'm tired of being let down by the non-Ken Levine entries. Counter Strike's still fun. Too bad most of the folks online are assholes. Classic.

>>5403596
Do you have a link? That sounds interesting

>>5403622
>Simon Rich is still the Jimmy Fallon of literary comedy

Wow, that's actually the most insulting thing you could say, and I mean that, because I really, really hate Jimmy Fallon. It's not that I just don't find Fallon funny (and I don't), I actually actively hate the "man".

First of all, Conan deserved The Tonight Show. He's the funniest late night host right now, and he always stays fresh; his nine month tenure at The Tonight Show was its most interesting and funny phase since the Carson years.

Here's why I really hate Fallon though. He's a giggling ass kisser who think being funny involves making oblique pop culture references, snickering to himself, then shooting Questlove a smug glance with his lazy eye.

He cannot interview anyone. He shuts down anything interesting anyone may have to say, repeats their own jokes back, and laughs AT EVERY GODDAMN WORD THEY SAY. It doesn't matter if they're joking or not, he laughs.

His sketches are retarded, his writing staff needs to be shot, and he needs to be beaten with a hose and summarily executed. I hate his guts, the dumb queer.

>>5403627
Well, I mean I think you've made yourself an arbiter even if you're not The arbiter of what does and doesn't constitute art. Hawthorne is one of the big American Renaissance guys. He wrote the Scarlet Letter and some other things.

I think this argument might also intersect with wether or not you're a death of the author person. I am. And I don't think authorial intention has to relate to analysis. It can but it doesn't have to. I imagine you're more on the intent side.

>>5403655
I forgot to say that I don't think Simon Rich is like Fallon at all, I think he's pretty funny. Did you see his latest New Yorker piece?

http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2013/11/18/guy-walks-into-a-bar

>>5403627
I believe you ARE the one to decide if it's art or not though. It's honestly and individual's reaction to art that makes something art in my opinion. Without and audience I don't think something is art.

If I shit on a piece of printer paper and frame it and someone goea "Wtf, gross" then I feel that's art. If they're completely unmoved and are like." That isn't art " then it isn't to that person. I can't magically make it art to other people. Just to myself and the others who also decided for themselves it was art.

Idk what school of thought or art that opinion would be but it's the conclusion I came to.

>>5403662
The person you're responding to (and who I've been responding to for a while now) has an answer to that. I suggest you look through s/he and I have been having.

>>5403640
http://newyorker.tumblr.com/post/2351295745/new-fiction-podcast-cynthia-ozick-reads-in-the
It's a beautyful story if you're dedicating yourself to an artistic or very specialized field. At the end they discuss the story and you may want to punch cynthia. At least I remember it like that.
Keep in mind that this are two women so if you were hoping a "dumb broad put into place" you won't find it. Just warning.

>>5402980
>privilege
>privilege

>>5403656
I used to be very much decided on the dead of the author, but it isn't really so easy as it seems.
If you say "the author didn't intend his clearly biased construction to carry his bias" then it doesn't matter, the work says more than what the author meant to say for the simple fact of being a human construction and humans being unable to extract themselves from their creations. But if you say "it doesn't matter that the author create his work for a certain context since I'm reading it now" then you are taking away part of the intended meaning. You would be reading A Modest Proposal as a completly serious text if you ignore the authors intention.

I don't know why I connected Hawthorne with the crazy dude, I wish I could remember where I saw that. Sorry that my american literature isn't all that it could be.

>>5403667
>if you were hoping a "dumb broad put into place" you won't find it
Where did that come from? I really was just intrigued.

>not writing about how you wish you were the little girl (ex. a man turning trans in modern society, conflict abounds)

4chan can make a fucking killing and you all refuse to write our generation's masterpiece because you don't want to end up pandering to SJW's.

>>5403665
Thanks for streamlining the convos a little bit.
>>5403662
The public participation isn't forgotten, after all art is communication and it requires a receiver. After Hegel the idea was that the public as a mass closes the circuit and their interpretation of the work makes the work "be", whatever it may be. But you can't take particular feelings into account since each person will be influenced by their own context. Maybe they don't care about your shit (literal, not figurative) because their father is losing control of their bowels and they have to see adult shit every day, or maybe they just took the greatest dump in their lives but if they see it another day it wouldn't be so familiar. There's were you get the cloud of academia, critic, museum and galleries, that cement the opinion they want. All in all written critics end up being the best way to understand general appeal since they'll be forced to justify their interpretation in the work itself and not their personal situation during the text, and you can see if you accept their take or not. Ideally each interested person should create their own text which you can compare and accept or reject. But that just doesn't happen. It's more complex than it might look at simple sight.

>>5403489
>>5403497
Fuck Stanley Parable. Look up Pathologic. That is video games as art.

>>5402981
hahahhhahahahahaha

>>5403707
I was just letting anyone who read know. That kind of stuff has an audience in 4chan.

>>5403010
And he left it instead for the los Angeles celebrity scene. He traded brainy phonies for prettyboy phonies. Ellis is a tool

>>5403253

How'd you get the intern? What was it like?

>>5403253
Is Deb one of those hot jews? Did she fuck her way to a young college degree?

>>5403655
>he always stays fresh

You don't think that Conan dumbs himself down too much and overplays the zany, nerd, look what I'm doing its crazy but its really not character? I haven't watched a late show in about a year, but I'd bet that he is still making the same jimmy carter jokes.

Fallon is shit, but Conan ain't no Messiah. He just plays too dumb these days.

>>5403771
He dumbs himself down, but he does it in a self-aware way where he's kind of poking you in the ribs while he does it. Above all, he's a good interviewer, and he stays tongue-in-cheek most of the time.

>>5403779
Also, I could elucidate more on this some other time, it's just three in the morning. I think about this stuff a lot. Sorry for the not very well thought out response.

>>5403655
Fallon is pretty schmucky but Conan is pretty bad too. First of all, with the whole late night """""fiasco"""""" he proved that he can't handle being deprived of the national spotlight for even a moment, not even while being paid multiple tens of millions as fucking severance to shut his fucking mouth for a second, (thus his Conan O'Brien Can't Shut Up for a Fucking Second Tour). He interrupts his bimbo actress guests' stories to insert a joke about Him (lel self-deprecation) and his intro stand-up is poorly delivered.

The best late night talk show host, imo, is Ferguson, though his puppet sideshow renders him, like the whole talk show cabal, irrelevant and only worthy as background noise to lukewarm middle-aged sex.

It's why Colbert' departure from TCR is tragic. He's giving up incisive political satire and top notch comedy for a bigger paycheck and a chance to interview bimbo starlets about their upcoming cgi massfeed movies. Presumably.

>>5403788
I don't like Ferguson. I thought the Late Night Debacle was funny. Conan's monologue is admittedly weak, but the late night monologue is never very funny.

I never found Colbert funny. I forget who said it, but they said it best. "He's a moderate pretending to be a liberal pretending to be a conservative." I've always though Colbert was boring and embarrassingly over the top on that show. Also, the whole "rah rah Colbert's so great" shtick I never found funny. The only time I ever like the guy was at the Correspondent's dinner.

Conan plays of Andy Richter well, which I like, because usually the sidekick is neglected as a gimmick. I think Conan's jokes about himself are pretty funny, though I get why you think they wear thin.

Jeez I'm tired.

>>5403797
And you stayed awake discussing something that has zero real value in your life
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wLfMvDCRGT0
and

>>5403336

>>5403806
I would have stayed up anyway. I will defend Conan O'Brien to my death.

>>5403806
>>5403812
between his show and his Simpsons episodes Conan O'Brien has made a bigger impact on my life than Noam Chomsky ever will

>>5403812
Ferguson is imo best as an interviewer. He's especially good at keeping up with quick-witted quests. Check out his first interview with Russell Brand.

Conan has been playing his shtick for far too long and while, yes, I first found him funny, he wears thin quick. Or maybe I just can't shake the oily image I have of him after his petulant behavior after being given the shaft (Coco want showshow NOW!). And the whole Team Coco bullshit is just as abrading as the Report's groupchant at the start of each fucking show.

But apart from that Colbert is pretty fucking solid. Quality wavers, as with anything, but overall he is the smartest, funniest, of all the late night hosts I can think of. But humor is a subjective thing and arguing for a particular brand of it is probably moot. I could write pages on why I think he's so great though.

>>5403840
how sad

>>5403847
Not really.

Conan thrived when he was on the second tier slot back in NBC. The comedy was more out there, the improv was better. The show rewarded regular watching (Walker handle, Mac and Me clips).

The bigger audience and all the hip support he got went to his head and now it's just a tired out gag at this point.

Belittling Andy Richter is amusing though.

>>5403850
>being okay that pop culture had more impact than someone explaining how pop culture is used to make you do and thing whatever they want.
Cool bro, hope you achieve all your goals.

>>5403857
Thank you for your support.

>>5403771
>He just plays too dumb these days.

This is what I enjoyed about his late slot. He would go off and be a real smart-ass and wouldn't pass up on putting someone snarkily down. He didn't down on the weirdness of his jokes for mass appeal.

>>5403847
I don't necessarily disagree with the kind of stuff Chomsky's saying in that video but I like people who make funny cool shit better than the people who explain how liking Conan is basically bombing Cambodia or whatever

>>5403877
No one said you can't, I follow the programs youtube and check some stuff now and then. But to say that a funny man made a bigger impact in your life is recognizing to be a tool. Which you are. We all are. But it's sad to just go out and say it like that.

>>5403887
No one's a "tool" for not lying. You can pretend Chomsky had a greater effect on your life, but watching youtube lectures from a man doesn't make it true.

>>5403887

Only if you evaluate your life by your position in the polis, your usefulness to the polis. Don't kid me, you're still evaluating people by what they do for others when you endorse Chomsky as much as Chomsky is evaluating them by how they serve the powers that be. Chomsky's afflicted by status anxiety like everyone else in capitalism. He understands the bars of the cage, but not, yet, that being in prison has changed him. Once you stop thinking of people as cogs, and as people, you realize that it's good that they're happy.

>>5403906
Did you not read when I said I was aware I live in that situation too? Knowing the bars isn't the same as making them go away, but at least you can tell where the sun is coming up to enjoy the view.

>>5403902
It's not the same to not lie than to express yourself without any need. I would consider reading chomsky has been more important in my life than watching stand up, he's not on my bedside and I found him too tied to american culture to be of importance for my context; but I can still decide in favor of the one that doesn't lie to my face.

>>5403729
Thanks. Just listened to the podcast. I agreed with Cynthia's analysis for the most part but Deb did pretty much have to step in when Cynthia was going off on a tangent completely misinterpreting the final line about forgiveness. I wish they would have discussed how the King obliterated the miniaturist by asking him how his new super-miniatures were even special if the only way to see them was through the magnifying lenses that just made them look the same size as normal miniatures.

New York is just this disgusting shit-hole when it comes to any art form these days. In the music scene it's the worst. Pitchfork and most of it's writers are now based in NYC and tend to only cover Brooklyn based bands or encourage bands to move to Brooklyn in order to get easy access and coverage. Look up the Pelly twins, it's fucking disgusting. Jen Pelly does write ups for bands that her twin sister tour manages.

I imagine the literary scene is just as bad.

>>5403933
hahahahahaha
I guess that would had weakened the connection with other arts and research, but it's true. I really like those podcast, Deb has a nice voice and the general rhythm is so comfy. That particular one is a pretty meh example, I only really retained the and that particular exchange. Usually they are more insightful and interesting.

>>5402913
I find the whole thing bizarre. Yes, vidya reviewers are not models of integrity and critical acumen. Wasn't that obvious from the fact that 90% of them seem to rate every big new game over 90%? Shit's just ridiculous.

To be slightly more /lit/, has there been a good book review summary/link site since metacritic stopped including books? The ratings were silly, but bringing reviews together was useful/fun.

Isn't nepotism and mutual promotion basically what defines a 'scene'?

Also Charlie Brooker was the last readable video game journalist. What you have to understand is that video game criticism largely doesn't exist in the same way that literature and film criticism do (i.e. as a sort of art form in itself); its raison d'etre is not the promotion of art, but the promotion of consumer goods.

>>5404846
How much of film criticism is an art form? Most of what I've seen is only slightly better than vidya.

>>5402924
Cultural journalist here, boy, if you think that gaming got it bad...

>>5405026
It depends. Zizek and Guy Debord do film criticism, most of Godard's work has its true value in how it analyzes the medium and its history.
It's more of a thing of "you can do art while you do it, and some people did". Vidja is too young, it's okay. Adorno used to say that film was on the same level that going to the zoo.

So is SJW some kind of politically correct slang term used to avoid offending leftists?

>>5405072
No, it's a word used to insult tumblr bloggers with feminist leanings.

>>5403070
I think Ellis is funny at times, Lunar Park, parts of American Psycho, the tweets where he trolls feminists and Glee fans.

>>5402946
D-damn

>>5405072
It's a /pol/ism to reference people who don't think women are responsible for everything.

>>5402913
You're a conspiracy theorist?
New York literary scene is Delillo, Capote, Barthelme, Amy Tan and a couple of others. I haven't read enough of them to form an opinion but it's good that they pick out Nigerians or the Persian and Chinese translator authors most likely recommended by the staff of their respective Radio Liberty stations.
I have seen worse. At least they do not keep it in the family.
As to Kotaku and to IGF, it was shit and it remains shit and their campaigning on intellectual sites was an extremely painful sight. However, godspeed them on eviscerating the retarded and fedora clad gamer community. If they are too retarded to avoid the bigot bait and fail to tell all the exciting things that they have found without acting like zaphod beeblebrox they deserve the shit they have received from the mainstream media.