/lit/ - Literature

>>5322616
Based Yourcenar. I doubt any man has made a female character as genuine as she made Hadrian.

Is that butterfly?

>>5322616
I've been interested in reading Yourcenar. Would people recommend that I begin with Memoirs of Hadrian? That seems to be the most popular.

Also, considering she was sleeping with her translator, I imagine that the English versions aren't so bad.

>>5322674
yes

>Your

It's spelled You're, not Your, faggots.

based

She does look remarkably like Butterfly bitch, and she's smart like Bb too. I wish the latter would show us her work.

>>5322674
The likeness is striking. That+lesbianism+literary interests.

Now I can only hope for butterfly to become a good writer. That's what should happen according to all this, r-right ?

>tfw straight male with crush on a beautiful lesbian /lit/ girl

It's going in my novel. Don't steal my idea Tao, I know you're around here somewhere.

>>5322674
I had the same thought

>>5322709
hey their, its nothing to get you're panties in a twist over

>>5324394
wow, what a use of a female character

>>5324430
I'll use her uniquely! She'll be a MPDG, but she'll be a lesbian! That creates conflict and drama, and the protagonist will have to overcome and destroy the girl's lesbianness by fucking her viciously. This is stuff that's never been put on paper before you mark my words.

Speaking of Yourcenar, has anybody read her book about lit's favorite boytoy?

>>5322616
Of course this comfortable bougie would think witnessing two contented Moroccan women doing something so mundane one moment out of their lives as "achieving eminence". Of course this nose-in-her-history books woman wouldn't take too much interest in the feminist movement or even try to promote some aspect of it. She's not "based" she's just a product of her time, as the screechy whiners are of ours.
Can't wait to start on Hadrian.
Has no one else read it? Really, OP?

>>5322709
>Marguerite You'recenar
HAHAHAH

>>5324286
I wish to see it too. Why don't you just call yourself "Anonymous-bitch"? (Thank you for the compliment. >>5324371 Y-y-you too. )

>>5324462
Sounds like horrible self serving porn.

she sounds fine to me if a little arrogant. I find feminism creepy, but Im a guy so they don't much care how I find them.

>>5325055

>Of course this nose-in-her-history books woman wouldn't take too much interest in the feminist movement or even try to promote some aspect of it.

That's right pussycat you get those claws ready.

Go pull her hair and scratch her eyes out, honey. Show her how serious feminists are.

>>5325083
Everyone should care. There's still deeply disturbing issues, and these one of them is the complete lack of responsible leadership.
If I were a conspiratorial type I'd think someone was intentionally trying to make the women's movement look bad. But it's just a stupid vacuum. One focus should definitely be about clarifying the position to people like you. It isn't about hating men or taking reparations out on anyone.

>>5325106
There's multiple types. But her arrogant colonialist side showed through in that short exchange. She was just an apathetic ivory tower type, who probably dreamed of the glories of Rome quite often

And Yeah, I see what you're saying, but her heads more of a linebacker's (American football)

>>5325117

>One focus should definitely be about clarifying the position to people like you.

You talk so much bullshit.

If you really want to follow all this idealism of equality then you need to accept that feminism is just another social dichotomy that is compounding the issue on the road to it.

Quit trying to SJW-guilt people you goofy bitch.

>>5324462
>making Proust roll in his grave with that blithe sarcasm
>>5325055
>Sounds like horrible self serving porn.
I would describe the things this did to me, butterfly, if the words for such an experience did not escape me in this moment at the behest of that experience.

>>5325117
I don't think feminism is about hating men. I've read a couple of the more basic texts, Le deuxieme sexe, and The Feminine Mystique stood out to me as interesting.

I simply don't like the movement. I feel this way about most movements though so bear with me. I find it very disconcerting the way feminists structure power relations in terms of a Patriarchy. Lots of people holding sexists beliefs does not equal a social structure based off of sexism. I find the reclaiming of words' definitions to mean subtly but insidiously different things disturbing. I find the emphasis on femininity(which is something I fully support as a set of behavioral traits) by those Feminists who even believe in Femininity, and the demonization of masculinity worrying. For one thing I don't believe that femininity and masculinity are really coherent concepts, and secondly I don't believe they're morally worse than one another when you take the average of the descriptions of them. I hate the groupthink involved in feminist society, and the buzzword-obsessed nature of the discourse.

I could go on here but I doubt I'm being particularly interesting so I'll stop.

In closing I'm just going to say that every time I read of or speak to a feminist or something within their sphere of influence I get the same disconcerted and repulsed feeling as I get listening to Communists, or National socialists, or Reactionaries, or Anarcho-syndicalists or dozens of other ideologies.

>>5325205
grill btw I just dislike the tendency to want to remove my responsibility as an individual these movements seem to display. Apparently I can only get on a soap box if I pursue the party line as well, otherwise they want to take my super secret mail sparkle grill card It's never been a movement which has told me it has faith in my agency or talents, and kind of acts like an abusive partner, at times, insisting I won't get anywhere without it and should not even if I did. It worries me the same as fundies of any sort.

>>5325157
State, Local and federal Houses, senates and governorships under GOP control continue to undermine the small advances in women's rights. INCLUDING the voting rights that effect the young and minority communities.
Only recently have they started to shine a little light on the culture rapist protection in the military, but not much has been done outside those circles.

"SJW" "Social justice"? How about American rights? Shove it.

>>5325205
Mostly agree. I wish for something more substantial to happen, but I'm thankful enough for baby-steps. I don't mind the label though.
>>5325244
It does need leadership of an extraordinary kind I know, btw

>>5325117
Mariposa, what is your view on the place of transwomen in the feminist movement? Do you agree with the idea that there is no "female" brain, or do you think that this intersection is beneficial to the overall movement?

>>5325260
I'd welcome that whole rainbow much as they're doing now (I think)
And I've always kind of believed there was some kind of balance between nature and nurture.

>>5325259
The only restrictions on voting rights have been voter is laws which usually affect the homeless, a disproportionate amount of whom are male.

>>5325273
What kind of leadership are you looking for? Is there a particular direction that you would like the feminist movement to go toward?

>>5325292
*voter id

Also "small" advancements? Women fucking outnumber men in higher education now.

What more "rights" do you think are pressingly needed?

>>5325259
Leadership is something of a false slogan in a campaign for individual responsibility. But kind of you to notice, want to do each other's hair?

>>5325305
Well higher education is a bit of a farce in terms of power. Feminism will obviously never take over the ruling power structures because it operates within the worldview that these powers have erected for the masses

>>5325259

lol butterfly gtfo of here

>>5325292
>The only
No.
>a disproportionate amount
Okay. Equally as bad. Nut I was trying to shift ti to a broader national problem. Men (On 4chan, and other "conservative" circles) don't seem interested in protecting this countries rights, because "muh heat 4 SJW" It's just a shame.

>>5325309
Is this really about taking power, about merely inverting existing power relationships rather than subverting and dismantling them?

(Yes)

>>5325314
You'll notice that the main group on 4chan who disregard identity politics in general are people on /pol/ and they tend to be either conspiracy theorists or reactionaries.

there is no clear ideology or doctrine, no movement for people trying to overcome the immense power of the media's control on information and therefore opinion and worldview.

I loved Memoirs of Hadrian. Fascinating guy, heartbreaking story.
I didn't like The Abyss as much but once Zeno returned to Bruges the feels became powerful again.

>>5325259
>Only recently have they started to shine a little light on the culture rapist protection in the military, but not much has been done outside those circles.
This is nothing on the prison rape culture. Power's only ever cared about rape if there was a dowry attached to the orifice. Rape from any highly belligerent army is about as surprising as murder. Limiting the stripped of their humanity aspects of military training doesn't make as much sense as limiting it in a criminal population, especially for a country that imprisons such a high percentage of its population.

>>5325335
But prison rape is funny because it's happening to men.

>>5325343
I want my right to punch my own gender for saying stupid shit but barring that, want to wear a dress so I can discredit you as a pervert if you try to file charges?

>>5325300
YEAH. Actually been on my mind for five or six years. Devising a story about it in my head, because I can't really do it myself. And addressing all these commutard issues mentioned here >>5325205 >>5325244
We could really use a little Stirner in our group efforts...

>>5325306
Depends on the leadership. OWS didn't get off the ground, Ferguson isn't going to produce anything

>>5325312
Eat dick, nigga.

>>5325343
It's not
Yup. Much wrong with the world.

>>5325259
>American rights

A bourgeois spook. Top lel if you expect a state to protect your 'rights'.

>>5325364
>Eat dick, nigga.
as a white American, you should already know by now that it's socially unnacceptable to openly use that racial slur; it's not "wittty", "hip", or "ironic" in any way- it's just plain wrong. Furthermore, that language has no place in 2014, and certainly not on my japanese futaba channel. I'll give your comment 0/10 for originality and effort (as well as forethought).

And for all the Internet bros that will say "chill man, it's just the internet, don't get butt hurt brah!", please educate yourself

>>5325369
>still thinking rights mean anything
>implying it's not actually about the much more difficult task if transforming our mode of being-with-others

I'm sure there are animal rights in this country but that sure didn't stop the drunkard I saw earlier from beating a couple of strays with his belt.

>>5325364
>Depends on the leadership. OWS didn't get off the ground, Ferguson isn't going to produce anything
>ows
Precisely because they succumbed to the same false slogan which Dr King used as an example in illustrating the phenomenon- the right to work is not a right and should never be something you back. Ferguson shouldn't be expected to produce more than Rodney King or Kent State and leadership won't affect that; this brings to mind Sombrero Fallout by Richard Brautigan in its expectations for a story line. This is the country that remembers Attica as a line in Dog Day Afternoon but not that they shot prison guards, with ammunition that counts as a war crime when used on enemies, with the press and Kunstler standing outside. A country which puts metal detectors in its schools before its airports is only a democracy in that it's on par with Athenian democracy's military decisions circa Syracuse and the death of Socrates: rhetoric and no fucking sense.

>>5325364
Butterfly! How can you justify using that epithet when you know that all forms of oppression are intimately connected?

>>5325369
Oh, I'm not that naive anymore. Hopeful, positive, but...

>>5325387
They only mean anything if we clap our hands together and believe.
They *could* be as real as we need them to be. Spooks as they are.

>>5325384
Chill man. It's all about context

>>5325403
"Eat dick" was the insult. And Spiderman said it.
Context. Look at this one. It's said in a friendly enough manner, all casual like.

>>5325405
>white person making excuses for using racist language

What a cun--

>>5324644
I haven't yet, but dunno if /lit/ is aware, Yourcenar was one of Mishima's favorite authors.

>>5325414
>in a room full of feminists "cunt" means candleja-

>>5325327
Could you talk a bit more about The Abyss? I thought it sounded interesting. Would you say it is an all right point of departure for Yourcenar? I know her most popular is Hadrian, but I think The Abyss sounds much more interesting.

>>5325403

girl on facebook:

>The fact is majority of men don't care to practice compassion and understanding Because those are "woman traits". Yes, us women should demand respect still Its saddening how easy it is to find a man who will mistreat and abuse us. Men have to be willing to be enlightened and they're just not. I don't know why their self awareness is light years behind ours. Again, being emotional is a "woman thing" to them. They're so out of touch with themselves, how can they support our souls and hold our fragile hearts?

is this true /lit/ ? i dont feel out of touch with myself

>>5325384

you forgot to point out that "eat a dick" is a homophobic slur

>>5325541
It's not true, souls don't exist.

>>5325541
>All men are tough, closed off emotionless assholes.

Feminism, the ideology of choice for people who choose shit boyfriends and lack self-awareness.

>>5325541
Ah my dream girlchild dating profile! the daddy issues we could explore! She will think it providence when she meets -but in truth she deigns so graciously to chose from her small fold of stock- her male archetype.

>>5325541
Women mistake personal vanity for self-awareness and rarely go further from that point. They are introspective insofar as it suits their ego to be. I would imagine the great introspective slavic philosophers like Dostoyevsky are lost on them.

>>5325433
The Abyss shows up Yourcenar's main failing, dialogue. One chapter called "A Conversation in Innsbruck" took me forever to get through because I kept wincing at the stilted implausible dialogue.
For about the first 140 pages, it's very uneven and episodic. There are sections that are very compelling such as a chapter about the Münster Anabaptist rebellion (The religious and philosophical upheavals of the Reformation are handled well. And the conflict between religious life and bourgeois comforts.) Other chapters are less compelling either by the dialogue, or by simply not being very interesting.
Once attention is finally returned to an aging Zeno, who has transformed from edgy young pontificator into an old man with Spartan dignity, the feels get progressively more and more powerful. Most people would consider Zeno's life a sad and lonely one but I thought of him as heroic.