/lit/ - Literature

>>5324043
ISOLT

>yfw the oxen of the sun

>>5324077
Ithaca

>>5324053
>a POEM
>prose

>>5324043
inb4 someone mentions that hack McCarthy.

>>5324130
Why is he a hack? I think he is somewhat overrated, but what makes him a hack?

Finnegans Wake

>>5324138
His sentences are awkward as often as they are beautiful, and he's thematically and tonally fraudulent. Misery is about as sustainable as happiness is, McCarthy doesn't seem to understand this. THe sadness in McCarthy's books is cheap when compared to the sadness in Nabokovs books. McCarthy's sadness is overbearing and usually derived from Judeo Christian Mythos, Nabokovs is random in the way that life is random. He's also incapable of writing a character that's both memorable and believable, the only exception is Harrogate, who was a secondary character.

>>5324130
I FUCKING HATE McCarthy

All of his shit reads off like a goddamned grocery list or someshit.

>>5324162
That's not what a hack is, tho

>>5324206
It is when people are calling you 'the greatest living american writer'.

blood meridian

>>5324217
Do people really say that? It's clearly either Melville or Pynchon.

>>5324229
>Melville
Well, he's alive in all our hearts, I'm sure.

>>5324217
According to the back of the copy of Bleeding Edge I bought earlier today, that's Pynchon. Not that it's biased or anything...

Of what I've read, and I openly admit its not much compared to many (maybe less than the majority) of my fellow /lit/izens, I would have to say Narcissus and Goldmund.

>>5324237
Didn't see that qualifier

>>5324162
>>5324130
five star post

i'm glad /lit/ is coming to realize that mccarthy is shit

>>5324242
>bleeding edge
How is it so far? I have yet to read it.

>>5324252
its very boring to disguise the fact that its very redpilled

>>5324162
>he thinks McCarthy's books are about "sadness"

real deep reading bro. no wonder you stick to surface level shit like nabokov.

>>5324043
I'd pick Byron the Bulb from Gravity's Rainbow or the part of Portrait of the Artist where Stephen is watching the girl at Dollymount Strand.

But I'm pretty biased towards literature of the last ~100 years or so, I'm sure there are good candidates before that as well.

>>5324261
Really? That's... surprising Pynchon never struck me as the redpilled type,

>>5324251
New to the thread, but I would hardly call McCarthy a "hack" or "shit". I agree that his writing isn't usually the wower everyone says it is, and "Blood Meridian" was pointless drivel full of gimmicks (WHA HAPPEN TO TEH KID AT THE END!!!????????????? I HAVE TO KNOW WHAT'S IN MARCELLUS WALLACE'S BREIFCASE!!!!!!! ARGGG!!!! not to mention "Hey, kids, do you like violence?")

"Suttree" is the finest thing I've read of McCarthy's, and it is leagues above and beyond BM.

>>5324269
nah, it sort of is, sort of isn't

if you finish reading BE and think Pynchon believes the official story at all then I don't know what to tell you

he knows

>>5324162
>He's also incapable of writing a character that's both memorable and believable

A criticism which could be extended to every tragedian ever.

>>5324270
>"Suttree" is the finest thing I've read of McCarthy's, and it is leagues above and beyond BM.

I should give that a shot.

>>5324269
Not that guy, and I haven't read it yet, but Pynchon clearly has a love for conspiracy theories of all stripes, and for bending reality to make even ridiculous ones plausible. I don't think setting a novel in a world where "redpill" conspiracy theories are true means Pynchon believes them.

>>5324280
I'll check it out, but to me it seems like Pynchon often makes fun of conspiracy theories ( see TCoL49 )

>>5324299
He doesn't hate Jews, that's for sure. Which is why BE's central characters were all Jewish.

> I don't think setting a novel in a world where "redpill" conspiracy theories are true means Pynchon believes them.

MKULTRA in GR didn't prove to be real? Pynchon did his research for BE, that's for sure.

>>5324317
imo the whole point of CoL49 is that they're very real. Oedipa is onto something and goes crazy because the world doesn't see it.

Like he says in V. "keep cool, but care." That's something Oedipa couldn't quite do.

>>5324324
There's no answer to the question in CoL49 of whether the conspiracy is real or not, so it's impossible to tell if she's onto something or just going crazy and paranoid. It's more open-ended than most of Pynchon's stuff that way, and I think contributes to why Pynchon has sort of disowned it.

>>5324320
GR deals with a lot of conspiracy theories, and that's only one of them! I agree with >>5324320, he clearly does an immense amount of research into what the conspiracy theory-spouters believe, and represents their conspiracies quite accurately whether or not he believes them. (My hunch is: usually doesn't, sometimes does. But what do I know?)

>>5324324
I'm not trying to call you out, because I read CoL49 years ago, but I don't recall any evidence of Oedipa "going crazy" or not keeping her cool.

Can you refresh my memory by pinpointing something about her losing it? I mean, granted, she doesn't understand it all, but I don't remember her fretting about not having control or understanding.

>>5324362
>>/lit/thread/S667543#p667619

it's worth reading this most of this thread

>>5324396
Damn, thanks, that's the best /lit/ thread I've ever seen. I've heard that about the jewels in Pale Fire as well, but I've never seen anyone explain exactly how you can solve the mystery. Would love to see a thread where someone that good goes through it.

>>5324285
>oedipus

Gormenghast
Course /lit/ wont read it because muh genre fiction hate even though the only fantastic thing is the fucking cats

>>5324464
shamelessly stolen from google


One of the plot elements in Vladimir Nabokov's frolicksome novel, "Pale Fire," is the Crown Jewels of the kingdom of Zembla, hidden away during the upset of the revolution, and searched for by incompetent Russians who never find them. In the bizarre index to the book, prepared by its supposed author, the insane Charles Kinbote, when one comes to the entry, "Crown Jewels," it says "see Hiding Place;" and at "Hiding Place" it says "_potaynik_ (q.v.);" at _potaynik_ it says "_taynik_ (q.v.);" at _Taynik_ it says "Russ., secret place; see Crown Jewels."

The book never does reveal where the Crown Jewels are hidden.

In an interview, however, an interview given some years after the book was published, and printed as No. 6 in Nabokov's "Strong Opinions," the last question of the interviewer is "[W]here, please, are the crown jewels hidden.?" And VN replies, "In the ruins, sir, of some old barracks near Kobaltana (q.v.); but do not tell it to the Russians."

If one consults the Index to "Pale Fire" one finds "Kobaltana," and reads:

"_Kobaltana_, a once fashonable mountain resort near the ruins of some old barracks now a cold and desolate spot of difficult access and of no importance but still remembered in military families and forest castles, not in the text."


essentially, buried in the index is something not connected to any footnote.

>>5324532
I see Gormenghast rec'd here all the time. I think it's one of the few works of genre fiction that /lit/ actually respects. Although I enjoyed it, I don't think it's a contender for best prose.

>>5324604
Hmmm...I had noticed the circular path in the index but not made the connection to Kolbatana. I had been thinking it would be more involved than that. Thanks, though.

>>5324532
>>5324607
It's not even genre fiction.

>>5324661
All the hate for genre fiction is propagated solely by "lovers" of genre fiction who want to appear whatever the literary counterpart is to racially tolerant is.

A portrait of the artist as a young man

I would say The Great Gatsby. Nobody writes prose like Fitzgerald.

>>5324688
It's antisemitic though.

>>5324217
a hack is a hack regardless of what anyone calls them
>>5324043
a lot of my first picks were already named so i'm throwing a curveball with Memoria de mis putas tristes
>>5324688
17yo detected

>>5324694
how?
All i noticed was his money related friends all had jewish names

>>5324290
It has his best narrative and atmosphere, but will probably earn him a 'views on women section on wikipedia

>no mention of William Faulkner ITT

>>5324243

mah nilla

>>5324049
yes

>>5324162
What you don't realize is that plenty of people are perfectly happy plenty of the time in his works. He doesn't explore what the characters are thinking, he explores what is happening and what they do. That being said, the world they live in IS a sad one, so of course it can fool the reader, as has happened here. His characters are not supposed to be memorable, for the most part. The commonness of them is part of the point.

Hey, folks!
I heard you like madeleines or muffins or whatever they're called.

honestly, 100 years of solitude or the virgin suicides. from a modern perspective, they really are beautifully written. i know lit probably hates ggm and eugenides, but i really liked them.

How has no one said Moby Dick?

CoL49 is so obviously pointing fun at conspiracy theories, she pursues a meaningless, trivial conspiracy about a fucking postal service and ruins her life in the process. All of this happening as she carelessly glances over the very real and meaningful problem of the bones under the bridge thing.

>>5324053
>Paradise Lost
>Prose

>>5326606
it basically is. barely versified

>>5326608
its blank verse pleb

>>5326615
have you even read it? it's rhythms are shit, basically prose

>>5326623
do you even know what blank verse is?

>>5324688
lul

>>5326623
u fkn w0t m88

>>5326626
are you a pleb or just dumb? just because it's in verse doesn't mean it's poetry and doesn't mean it has any rhythm. milton's blank verse is so loose it's basically 10-beat prose

>>5324053
Ya blew it, leave this board and never return.

>>5326668

And Shakespeare's blank verse?

>>5326668

I think that was a great perception of your part. It's hard to be that bold and to state something that seem obvious but that will cause a lot of anger among readers. Milton was certainly a great poet, but many times his blank verse is, like you have said, incredibly loose, and it reminds some sort of prose. Please, tell me your opinion about Shakespeare, like I have already asked you:

>>5327258

>>5325474
guess /lit/ has taste
faulkner's good, but not the best prose of the past 400 years

>>5324043
Hands down Gene Wolfe. His prose is insane.

"When love beckons to you follow him, Though his ways are hard and steep. And when his wings enfold you yield to him, Though the sword hidden among his pinions may wound you. And when he speaks to you believe in him, Though his voice may shatter your dreams as the north wind lays waste the garden. For even as love crowns you so shall he crucify you. Even as he is for your growth so is he for your pruning. Even as he ascends to your height and caresses your tenderest branches that quiver in the sun, So shall he descend to your roots and shake them in their clinging to the earth......

But if in your fear you would seek only love's peace and love's pleasure, Then it is better for you that you cover your nakedness and pass out of love's threshing-floor, Into the seasonless world where you shall laugh, but not all of your laughter, and weep, but not all of your tears. Love gives naught but itself and takes naught but from itself.

Love possesses not nor would it be possessed; For love is sufficient unto love. And think not you can direct the course of love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course. Love has no other desire but to fulfil itself."

But if you love and must needs have desires, let these be your desires: To melt and be like a running brook that sings its melody to the night. To know the pain of too much tenderness. To be wounded by your own understanding of love; And to bleed willingly and joyfully"

>>5324043

Moby Dick has the most beautiful prose and story ever written, the perfect book.

what book was it that had that scene where some guys are carting a dead woman down a city street, and they go door to door asking people if they know her, and something about it being the wrong house and nobody caring. it was pretty. i have no idea what the fuck it was.

>>5324162
>Nabakov
>random

>>5325474
Which book of his has good prose?

>>5324396
>this thread was my entire night

>>5329004
>MY NIGGER

the waves

>>5324229
Melville, like the wizard?

>>5324396
>But do you think there's any chance that James Joyce HAD read The Snake's Pass by Bram Stoker the way I described it, and saw the cliché Irish stereotype heroine written by a Protestant Bureaucrat Servant of the Brutish Vempire named Norah Joyce, and thought of that when Nora Barnacle gave him a handjob on Bloomsday?
probably turned him on

>>5324043
/thread

>>5324087
this guy gets it
>mfw water has never been more beautiful