/lit/ - Literature

Certainly like all our ancestors, we're predicting an imminent end of civilization, only we have the Internet to do it on.

I certainly wont be a nostalgic classicist who has to be torn, screaming and kicking into the new age.

There's an evil virus that's threatening mankind
Not state of the art, a serious state of the mind
The muggers, the back stabbers, the two faced elite
A menace to society, a social disease

Rape of the mind is a social disorder
The cynics, the apathy one upmanship order

Watching beginnings of social decay
Gloating or sneering at life's disarray
Eating away at your own self esteem
Pouncing on every word that you might be saying

Rape of the mind is a social disorder
The cynics, the apathy oneupmanship order

Superficially smiling a shake of the hand
As soon as the back is turned, treachery is planned

Rape of the mind is a social disorder
The cynics, the apathy oneupmanship order

Watching beginnings of social decay
Gloating or sneering at life's disarray

When every good thing's laid to waste
By all the jealousy and hate
By all the acid, wit and rapier lies

And every time you think you're safe
And when you go to turn away
You know they're sharpening all their papers knives

All in your mind, all in your head, try to relate it
All in your mind, all in your head, try to escape it

Without a conscience they destroy
And that's a thing that they enjoy
They're a sickness that's in all our minds

They want to sink the ship and leave
The way they laugh at you and me
You know it happens all the time

All in your mind, all in your head, try to relate it
All in your mind, all in your head, try to escape it, yeah

The rats in the cellar, you know who you are
The rats in the cellar, you know who you are
The rats in the cellar, you know who you are
The rats in the cellar, you know who you are
Or do you? Or do you? Or do you? Or do you?

Watching beginnings of social decay

Because our strong ancestors improved the world to the point where you don't need to be strong. It's their fault.

>>5177019
"My dear young friend," said Mustapha Mond, "civilization has absolutely no need of nobility or heroism. These things are symptoms of political inefficiency. In a properly organized society like ours, nobody has any opportunities for being noble or heroic. Conditions have got to be thoroughly unstable before the occasion can arise. Where there are wars, where there are divided allegiances, where there are temptations to be resisted, objects of love to be fought for or defended–there, obviously, nobility and heroism have some sense. But there aren't any wars nowadays. The greatest care is taken to prevent you from loving any one too much. There's no such thing as a divided allegiance; you're so conditioned that you can't help doing what you ought to do. And what you ought to do is on the whole so pleasant, so many of the natural impulses are allowed free play, that there really aren't any temptations to resist. And if ever, by some unlucky chance, anything unpleasant should somehow happen, why, there's always soma to give you a holiday from the facts. And there's always soma to calm your anger, to reconcile you to your enemies, to make you patient and long-suffering. In the past you could only accomplish these things by making a great effort and after years of hard moral training. Now, you swallow two or three half-gramme tablets, and there you are. Anybody can be virtuous now. You can carry at least half your morality about in a bottle. Christianity without tears–that's what soma is."

>>5177019
one day i will be /fit/ enuff to look like a riace warrior

Death of elitism with the democratisation of merit.

Polymaths fade into hordes of disciplines.

Generals fade into battle statisticians and professional officers.

Statesmen fade into bureaucratic processes and a faceless succession of presidents.

Heroes exist only in stories.

People start taking pills to change their gender for some weird reason and everyone celebrates being a fucking faggot. Welcome to the new world.

>>5177019
Do you really think the Iliad is an accurate historical account of Greek life?

>>5177019
>[W]hy are we not more like our strong ancestors?
Capitalism.

>>5177060
>inb4 the Jews did it

I know you guys want to say it

>>5177092
It's no one race, but those who hold wealth, and no one religion, but itself.

It's why we're all just "pleb" wage slaves.
Working a corporation or a mom & pop
Self employed or a co-op

Because our ancestors had to fight wars with their bare fucking hands.

>>5177111
>It's why we're all just "pleb" wage slaves.

I'm not. I'm pursuing higher education at the expense of the state, and I hope to manage to trick the state into thinking it needs my research so that I can spend my days thinking on what interests me at the expense of the state.

Feels good not being American.

>>5177023
There like when kids eat ginormous lollipops. So immature.

>>5177024
Civilization has ended about five times in Europe and at least once in Asia.

In China, that was around 1900-1920. It's hard to pick a particular time, because the whole 1850-1970 period is pretty much a never ending shitstorm of constant decline. Thousands of years of Imperial rule ended. The entire education system, which included memorisation of entire books and official examinations in bamboo painting for bureaucrats, was scrapped. Classical Chinese, the standard official and literary dialect, which is as different to spoken Mandarin as Latin is to Italian, was scrapped. This means that the various dialects of China no longer write the same language; a split like that between Spanish and Italian emerges between Mandarin and Cantonese. Communist insurgencies. Thousands of paintings and sculptures and buildings and texts destroyed for no particular reason in the Cultural Revolution. Tell me, you coy little weasel, that this wasn't the end of a civilisation.

In Europe:
First, the defeat of the Greek city states by the Macedonians, and the dispersal of their intellectuals across a soulless oriental empire. Creativity slowly grinds to a halt, and not so slowly becomes self-conscious, referential, artificial, secondary. This forms the culture of the Roman Empire.

Second, the destruction of the Western Empire by the Christians and Barbarians. Goodbye literacy.

Third, the destruction of Imperial Greek culture by the Ottoman Turks, which, in all honesty, was like trading a rotten apple for a rotten orange.

Fourth, the replacement of Gothic Christianity based on folkish traditions and germanic aristocracy by Classicist Humanism. America is the product of the latter. Protestantism at its most intelligent was basically the desire to read the bible and figure out what it can teach us; this is the same logic of Classicism, except religious.

Fifth, in the 20th century: the erasure of Latin and classical culture from education. Scripture is no longer considered authority. The Catholic countries dispense with Latin services and promote translations of the Vulgate, yet have no tradition of lay scriptural study; unlike with Protestantism's translations, this move is the result of a collapse in faith - here in Church authority, but with no interest in alternatives.

So all in all, we've tossed Romantic folklore in the bin, polished off old texts until we saw the flaws and binned them too, and now have nothing. We broke organic continuity of ritual, and then we destroyed its artificial replacement.

>>5177023
>Human history is a linear progression where the species has only been getting better and better, without losing any previous skills or wisdom.

>>5177019
>why are we not more like our strong ancestors?
because I`ve actually read about them.

Capitalism

>>5177041
mustapha mond did nothing wrong

>>5177019
we have bigger dicks so it about evens out

>>5177054
>Do you really think the Iliad is the only account of Greek life?

Christianity.

>>5177221
10/10 Editors Top Pick
- IGN

>>5177267
pics or gtfo

>this perspective
we are monkeys that live in conditions they really should not. whether you deal with it or not depends pretty much entirely on willpower.

you're glorifying some people of your choice because they had some of that willpower and attributing it to their group, background, position or some decisions they made. our analytical side is an unchanging, indifferent thing that has very predictable pitfalls and conclusions. it's interesting only in itself.

human glory or lack thereof is just a question of stupid fucking mental and biological stress. anyone who knows group psychology will know that otherwise inconsequential things will have significant impact on everyone involved. their ideology changes the details at best.

>>5177301
>>>/hc/

>>5177262
Indeed.

>>5177111
>It's why we're all just "pleb" wage slaves.
speak for yourself butterface

>>5177307
>Monkey
No
>The rest of your retarded bullshit

Oh kill yourself faggot. We're the best there is and as far as we know ever will be. Quit with the absurd arguments of reduction. What are you like sixteen? Shut the fuck up kid. You're not deep or interesting. You're just a loser trying to justify why you're a lazy, unhappy idiot.

>>5177221
Yet we keep bouncing back each time.

>>5177378
Check this New money pleb

>>5177221
>polished off old texts until we saw the flaws and binned them too..
Protestantism was not a desire purely to read the bible, rather protestants had a scholastic intention. They went back to the original (Greek and Hebrew) scriptures and translated directly from those to make a new canon. How can you call that "binning the flaws"?

>>5177413
>implying i'm not lumpenpatrician parasite elite

back to work, butters

>>5177019

Our needs condition our existence; the struggle to exist itself determines the very content of its object. Every individual is more or less unique in accordance with the more or less unique way he must live; he is also like every other man to the extent that he shares their means of living.

The hunter develops himself differently than the farmer; he is strong in different places, possesses different moral notions and has knowledge of different things. Neither is more or less than the other but in the fickle conceptions of narrow-minded partisans. They are each the mere products of their own being.

Poetry changes with words and the way we use them, our bodies change with new methods of work and play, and morals change with social convention. The whole history of mankind is driven by the progress of our means of living, our methods of work. If it seems to you that change is degradation, it seems to some moderns that our ancestors never truly lived. Both are narrows perspectives that contain a part of truth.

>>5177221
>the erasure of Latin and classical culture from education
This hasn't happened.

>>5177019
>our poetic artistic lively senses have degraded and we are entering the end of this civilization

You don't honestly believe this do you? We are doing better than ever, by far. I think shitposting on the internet and relatively high wealth inequality are small problems compared to wide spread famine and getting thrown into an army to die horribly on the front lines of some cold barbarian campaign.

>>5177221
>muh ming vases

and nothing of value was lost.

>>5177414
The middle ages was not very concerned about inconsistencies in the Bible. It was basically a grab-bag of allegories and anecdotes; the Song of Solomon, the Psalms and New Testament had the most direct and genuine influence. They don't have elaborate cosmologies.

It was only after Renaissance scholarship came along that people started to treat the book as something to be followed to the letter. Ecclesia means congregation and not church, they insist. It becomes very important to them to discover the truth in the text and obey it.

Biblical Fundamentalism comes from Protestant scholarship. It is pop-protestantism, scriptural criticism for low-brow morons who should be tending to their turnips and not shouting from a podium. We see what morons do with Nietzsche today: some things are a double-edged sword.

In the 19th century, still increasing their critical and philological studies, people began to recognise that they were looking at a compilation of folklore, that the Song of Solomon was an actual love song about rollicking sex and not some tenuous allegory of Christian spirituality. Faith was cracked. When Darwin came along and contradicted the explicit details of the creation of the earth that Gothic Christian civilisation barely knew or cared about, faith was shattered. Doctrine must be rigid to shatter. People like Richard Dawkins are still surfing that wave.

A: art back then wasn't mass produced by capitalism
D: They didn't distinguish between "plebeian" and "patrician" art, rural working class enjoyed reading, or least listening to, Homer. Hesiod wrote for the rural working class.

>>5177500
This has happened. Do high school student learn latin any more? The answer is no.
It is occasionally found as a quaint elective that has neither establishment nor folk support; they may as well be taking a basket weaving class. It will appear equally impressive on a resume in the eyes of post-traditional culture.

>>5177485
>Claims to be a patrician
>Admits he's not

>"Back to work"
I have a broken arm actually. Now I have more time to read while collecting my wages

>>5177517
Rural land owners. The working class were slaves.

>>5177537
i claimed not to be a wage slave, which is wholly true.

>>5177538
Have you actually read Hesiod?

>>5177517

Okay. So WAY BACK IN THE GOOD OL DAYS, art was NEVER COMMISSIONED BY THE WEALTHY. There weren't artisans, only simple folk doing things for the sake of sheer personal gratification.

You're a fucking moron.

Have you ever looked at archeology? Read any history?

Art survives when it carries significance, to a culture or to individuals, or by random chance. It is created for a variety of reasons.

Your simplicity introduces damage to the topic at hand.

>>5177535
>Do high school student learn latin any more? The answer is no.

Yes, at least here in Germany they do.

>>5177565
Ayrıca Alman vardır? Arkadaşım merhaba!

>>5177552
Fine. You still need money to navigate through this world.

>>5177538
There were slaves and then there were the working free poor.

>>5177564
Art was SURELY commissioned by the wealthy from the very beginnings of wealth. I'm saying that taste, capacity to enjoy that art, wasn't seen as part of class distinction.

>>5177053
>the democratisation of merit.
self-contradictory

>>5177564
Read it carefully next time

>>5177577
Also, being produced for the wealthy is not the same as mass-produced by capitalism based on mathematical art research. Art under capitalism is not an art, it is a science

>>5177514
>Biblical Fundamentalism comes from Protestant scholarship
Goddamn this' and fetishizing the State (cue Hegel, Marx, Hitler, et. al.)

>>5177589
>Art under capitalism is not an art, it is a science

stoop poost

>>5177568
Good point. You can cease your uneducated shitflinging now.

>>5177019

Humanity has always been mediocre on average. In old times just as now the people that really mattered in arts and sciences were just a small group of individuals.

>>5177600
It's based heavily on financial risk. You aren't selling your work to some aristocrat' eye, you're selling it to a group of investors.

>>5177589
>science is not art

>>5177617
By what measures would science be an art?

>>5177557
No, too boring. I am familiar with the ancient Greek economy. You don't seem to be.
Did small-time land owners engage in work from time to time? Probably. Maybe throw in a bit of pan fluting if they're in a "sweet home arcadia" kind of mood.
Were some smallholders, a nuclear family running a farm on their own power? A few, possibly, but pre-modern families were larger and more extended; there's bound to be a few low status relatives and non-relative drudge-workers in the mix in most cases.

They Greeks didn't distinguish between plebeian and patrician art because this distinction originated on 4chan.
No, there was no distinction. Any art that was art at all simply originated among patricians (in greece, eupatrids) or was marketed towards them. The rest were comparable in quality to the rustic whittlings and hotel room dawbs with birds shaped like Vs of our times.

>>5177622

design experiments
sell experiments
present research
contextualize research
communicate research
pander for grants
etc

>>5177624
Hesiod advises farmers to work their asses off if they want to eat, and he gives tips for hiring the right wage help.

the tripfags on this board are the worst

>>5177638
>design experiments
That is purely based on science and expertise
>sell experiments
What does that even mean
>present research
>contextualize research
>communicate research
I don't see art in there unless you find literary value in explaining graphs and images
>pander for grants
By that criterium pandering for ANYTHING is an art.

>>5177643
And if you find most translations of Hesiod to be dull, try Lombardo's rather lively version.

>>5177565
I've done some searching based on your little statement. It seems that it is an elective that is currently in fashion in catholic areas and a handful of protestant areas. I suppose this is a good sign. But an elective in Bavaria does not a Latin Europe make. A culture cannot have its core components be optional, at least at the state level.

>>5177638

so there's no art in interpretation of observation?

I assume every sonata is entirely unscientific, and that every statement of proportion is wholly separate from sculpture.

I assume Carl Sagan had no artistic skill in interpreting formulas and sharing them with the masses.

Oh ye with narrow eyes, awaken full and see!

>>5177684
>>5177648

>>5177041
what's the point of living if you're not striving towards a better world?

>>5177707
Striving toward anything--could be a better world, could just be a personal goal--is generally what it takes to make life fulfilling, although that doesn't apply to everyone.

>>5177707

wanton self-pleasure

experiencing for its own sake

etc.

That's a useless question.

>what's the point of living
We've been debating that since before we could debate, I'd bet.
>What's the point of living if you're not striving towards a better world?
We've not answered the first portion of your question as a race, and now you're placing value statements in the inquiry. I'd have to ask, "What is better? What is a better world? Why strive for it? What is the point of living? Is there a point to living? Is there?" etc.

Restart it again with the trivium, the knowledge that builds higher civilization but was deliberately taken away from us.

http://www.triviumeducation.com/

>>5177679
It's not an ellective. Most schools (gymnasiums, not high school for the scrubs) have it compulsory (or semi-compulsory alonside French or Spanish) from 5th to at least 9th grade. So please only shitpost about subjects you informed yourself about BEFORE jumping into some random thread hailing the end of the world as we know it.

>>5177684
>so there's no art in interpretation of observation?
>I assume every sonata is entirely unscientific, and that every statement of proportion is wholly separate from sculpture.
You don't interpret sonatas the same way you interpret data. You don't think about the value of data points in their historic context, the beauty of their progression, about the philosphy behind it, the artists intentions or whatever. You think about whether they're in the mathematical range to fit your theory and expectations.

Sure, you can call every transfer of meaning and information between humans "art", but then you water down the meaning of the word beyond any usefulness.

>I assume Carl Sagan had no artistic skill in interpreting formulas and sharing them with the masses.
That's not science, that's education.

>>5177734

Ahh, so art is in interpretation.

>>5177725

http://www.gnosticmedia.com/dr-jason-martineau-interview-the-spiritual-dimensions-of-music-109/

and

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6sf5GHfQmEM

And here

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SKWwXy0YiIM

>>5177743
You tell me.

>>5177725
The book by Miriam Joseph is damn good.

>>5177622
>requires craft
>aesthetics as one of the core criteria for selecting results
>creativity is relevant in many cases
>used as means of social selection/elevation
>can change durably the perception the elite have of themselves and others

>>5177762

Very, very good.

The one about Shakespeare "Shakespeare Uses of The Arts of Language" is, imo, even better.

>>5177734
I was not discussing the German education system or the apocalypse; I'm not sure which is less appealing. I was discussing the West. In the English speaking world, the majority of the West, Latin is barely taught. I'd bet a toe that levels of actual use of the language is no higher in Germany, for all there is more fluency there.
I don't suppose there's a little gingerbread township in the Alps where the natives speak only Latin? That would be a real death blow to this theory of mine.

>>5177019
> Considers Ancients to have a better and more abundant culture
> Three classic works of fiction were produced during thousand years Rome stood

>>5177769
>aesthetics as one of the core criteria for selecting results

This is untrue. Again, unless you bend the meaning "aesthetics" to a painful degree to suit your argument.

Our education needs to be as such.
First we teach children to read, and interpret art (sculpture, paintings, architecture, music etc.)
We teach them the basis of our language, Latin and Ancient Greek. And we teach them extesnively with ancient texts, and cultivate a strong grasp for communication in language all together. We also teach them to understand artistic works, mainly form the classical, and rennaissance times. And for music, the Classical Music era, as well as some ancient folk music.
Then when they get older, and they understand art, literature, language, music, and classical cultures, we teach them to write, compose/play and instrument, and draw/sculpt/design etc.
Thus we teach kids how to interpret and understand information, and then how to communicate information. This skill will be the basis for learning absolutely everything after this.
After we teach them classical drawing, classical architecture, classical poetry, and Classical Music, and so on. They have developed an ability to learn at a superior rate, a deeper more receptive ability to learn will develop them, to appreciate education, and art.
After this phase, we teach them Science, and mathematics more extensively. They will study the basics of mathematics, reading Euclid, and ancient Greek and Arabic mathematic texts. Of course, we would also teach them arithmatic, at an earlier stage. But because they have now a larger vocabulary, and understanding of language, teaching mathematics will be done quicker than trying to teach kids who do not understand english as extensively. They will study basics for Sciences as well, studying Newton, Ancient Greek texts on the matter, and Anceint Arab texts as well.
After this they will study a cultural history of Europe, where they will study art in progression. They will now study Boroque music, romantic music, and so on. They will study Romantic painting, poetry, and literature and all the styles up until the modern day. They will study the philisophical styles that come about from each era of history. During this time they will also study extensively the political History of Europe, up until WW2.
Now, after they can understand and express information, have a comprehensive understanding of natural sciences and mathematics, have a comprehensive understanding of philosophy and European history, they are ready to learn advanced sciences and mathematics, and world history, and foreign languages. Thus once they are about 21ish, they are ready to go out into society, and we would have the best fucking society in human history.
Also I forgot to add we would have daily physical exercise based on classical greek sports, such as sprinting, wresteling, and discus/javelin. We would also teach throughout the courses, things such as Cooking, Farming, Fashion (it sounds funny, but understanding clothing historically and how they are made is more important than you think), and World religions, and several other things I may have left out.

>>5177864

>>5177019
Do you really believe that every Greek and Roman was a poet or a philosopher? We are exactly like we were 2000 years ago, Rome is the demostration of that. We are in decadence right now, but it is a global decadence that only the Spirits know how it will end.

>>5177805
>This is untrue.

This is true and you'd know it if you had worked with scientists that are not soulless engineers (and that include not-completely-soulless engineers). Beauty isn't the single driving criterium in all sciences but it is still pretty important.

And the word "aesthetics" is alreacy pretty bent even when you consider only painting, music, architecture and sculpture.


>They will study the basics of mathematics, reading Euclid, and ancient Greek and Arabic mathematic texts.

Please don't do that. That's for teaching history of mathmatics, for teaching mathematics modern language is way less confusing and more accurate.

Also

>everthing should be taught in chronological order
>the ancients texts are necessarily better

Your purpose is to have your children become able to understand what they do and reflect upon it. You should take into account child psychology and remember that accessibility, clarity and up-to-date standards of knowledge are paramounts.

>>5177864
I'd simplify it.


Latin language.

Latin composition.

The vernacular language.

Vernacular composition.

Lessons in geometry and mathematics.

Applied geometry and sketching from life compulsory. Public awards for best original sketches. No colour, lead only.

Basic music lessons compulsory; continuing with the "bare bones" logic, they learn monophonic folk songs, modes and pentatonic scales. A choir is formed and performs at local festivals.

Local history, including excursions to historical sites and modern state offices, forts and facilities.

Western history with emphasis on classical civilisation. Perhaps a school tour to Greece or Italy.

Callisthenics. Dashes, marathons, various other solo sports encouraged; competition between players of these solo sports with prizes awarded. Perhaps a team sport, but best for it to be school versus school to keep things clannish.

I suppose some science, mainly the demonstrable kind. I tend to regard it as drone lore.

>>5177388
I think you misunderstood every point in that post