/lit/ - Literature

>>>/lgbt/

I'm economically left but socially right myself.

nope, that would be /pol/

/lit/'s leftists are quite vocal and radical, but I think more of the political spectrum is represented here than on boards like /tv/ or /co/ where the majority just blindly follow the soft liberalism of the status quo.

I don't think so, we're all for gay marriage and other obvious issues but I think most of us are socially liberal and fiscally conservative, that's the sensible thing.

Yes, this is the Marxist-feminist board.

>>5162989
Please post younger version of Teacher Mao. He was really cool as a fiery young man.
>>5163000
>I'm economically left but socially right myself.
Not possible.

>>5163008
>like /tv/ or /co/ where the majority just blindly follow the soft liberalism of the status quo.
I don't believe people as retarded as that are on 4chan. I hope they get bored here and go back to places like tumblr or facebook.

4chan on the whole is more left-wing than you think, but right-wing /pol/tards and /r9k/ virgins are much more vocal than the rest.

Nah, they're only a vocal minority of off-topic shitposters.

>>5163010
>we're all for gay marriage

KEK

>and other obvious issues

KEKKITY KEK KEK KEK

>but I think most of us are socially liberal

TIPPEST TOPPEST OF KEKS

is it leftist to think left and right are meaningless comfort zones?

>>5163010
Speak for yourself. I am against any marriages. I am egalitarian socially and economically.
>that's the sensible thing
Fuck off. I want my cyborg society NOW.

>>5163018
I think the context used presently in America, I think 'liberal' and 'conservative' are meaningless comfort zones.

Some of the posters here may be leftists but I'm so right-wing that I want to gas all non-whites and restore absolute monarchy, so I like to think it balances out.

>>5163018
No, it's a retard who can't come up with better alternatives to replace the current mapping of political spectrum.

>>5162989
It's an odd mixture of conservatives, the religious, the traditionalist/classicist types bump elbows with the more left leaning types.
It's fairly civil most of the times, for 4chan anyway.

>>5163000
>I'm economically left but socially right myself.

Same here, although probably relatively moderate compared to others of that leaning. Sucks that the only accurate term to describe our position - national socialism - is now fraught with bad associations of imperialism and genocide and what have you.

>>5163018
Left and right are perfectly suitable and meaningful within their limits.

>>5163029
>Sucks that the only accurate term to describe our position - national socialism - is now fraught with bad associations of imperialism and genocide and what have you.
You just can't come up with something to convince the masses.

>>5162989
I'd say it was a mix of commies, fascists, moderates, anarchists and apathetics.

>>5163036
So 4/5 leftists? Sounds about right.

Keep in mind most of 4chan is American and is thus completely clueless about political spectrum. They think "liberal" is left-wing. They think the abortion and gun-control debate is a thing outside of Murrika when everyone else has moved on. They consider "socialist" or "leftist" to be an insult because they equate it with the USSR. They actually think Germany and France are left-wing because of the SPD and PS for fuck's sake.

I never, ever argue about politics on /lit/ because I know I would be most likely debating with an American and they are on a completely different level.

>still believing in a left vs right dichotomy

You're so fucking blue pilled I bet you also support the illuminati.

>>5163041
>I never, ever argue about politics on /lit/ because I know I would be most likely debating with an American and they are on a completely different level.
Where do you usually argue than, master? Don't tell me it's a super sekrit club called real life.

>>5163041
>this is what dumbass teenagers actually believe

herp derp derp

>>5163041
Hollande isn't leftist enough?
I know Germany and Italy are terribly rightwing.

>>5163047
>>5163049
Durpy comments

>>5163013
>not possible
why not fag
social issues are a whole other thing

>tfw the left is eating itself
>tfw watching each successive level of leftiness get creeped out by the level that is one shade more Tumblr than it
>tfw they try to even mildly critique the Tumblr shit and get ostracised immediately
>tfw the hardcore activists, major theorists, and ordinary people who actually know what they're doing are the first to go
>tfw some of them turn into uncle toms and start pretending they understand quigongenderism
>tfw all the great leftist colleges that functioned as informal think tanks for the left are now tranny discussion zones
>tfw the left is dead

>>5163013
If one is pro-worker, one must necessarily be anti-immigrant.

>>5163052
I've been living near the Germany-French border for 12 years. After jumping from one side to the other for various purposes more times than I can count and getting accustomed to either country, I've learned two things:
1. There is almost no difference between France and Germany save for the language.
2. There is literally no difference between either country's policies and there hasn't been one for the last decade.

>>5163056
The left isn't dead it's just won so many wars that at this point it has nothing better to do than wank about intersectional oppression.

>>5163062
>won so many wars
>every country is a corporate controlled capitalist heaven
sure thing bud, leftism is totally about people doing whatever they want with their genitals

>>5163062
The left hasn't won. That's just propaganda. Liberal capitalism has won (for the time being)

>>5163068
Liberal capitalism was the sane part of the left. It won because it was right. A few stragglers kept trying to kill people for a vague idea of lawless utopia, and wearing berets in public, but you can basically ignore them.

>>5163056
Whats up, big dawg.

>>5162989
And here's one of those rightwingers now OP >>5163074

I used to be you.

>>5163066
This guy knows what's up.

>>5163074
Liberal capitalism never "won" in the sense of gaining anything of it. The USSR crisis was basically both sides losing, with the less losing side taking everything shit on the more losing side.

>>5163066
>>5163068
>every monarchy in the West has been overthrown or castrated
>aristocracy gone
>visible hierarchy gone
>only legitimate form of government is democracy
>classic international law trashed
>fiat currency is now common sense in economics
>mass immigration is now common sense in foreign policy
>emancipation of women and children
>massive "social safety net" in every single Western country
>pension system so large and bloated it is going to bankrupt everyone inside three generations (but no-one cares because muh workers)

Pls stop, this is embarrassing. Western society hasn't stopped moving leftwards for the last 200 years. At this point the inertia can't be overcome and leftists have instinctively picked up on this and begun spending their energies jostling for power amongst themselves.

>>5163104
Oh, I forgot

>religion gone or suborned to the State

>>5163054
Except that the current limitations of society, the social condition, is determined by its economic condition. Why the fuck should I think about my family when I'm a genetically engineered and was born from an artificial womb #156 ,which was paid by the state?

>>5163012
At any rate, it's the only board smart enough to not get flustered by neo-liberal/neo-conservative/reactionary shitposting.

>>5163041
>I, unlike American swine, am on a different level of understanding
>I make ridiculous generalizations
>I make generalizations about other people making generalizations
>I fail to recognize the stupidity of my post.
>save me

>>5163104
Don't forget the planned worker camp, courtesy of charismatic CEOs et al. Truly what a socialist nation we have been living now! Brb watching my oniisama can't be this cool so that I can't be as cool as my oniisama.

>>5163104
It's not the left's fault if capitalism needs means to sustain itself ;)

Is the BNW state leftist?

>>5163127
It's certainly authoritarian, and economically speaking it is by no means egalitarian either.

>>5163010
>of course we are all for sodomy, it's just the emancipation of the working classes that we find distasteful

>>5163126
>;)
Go. Go away.

>>5163131
is it Last Man Fascism?

>>5163127
Think about it for two fucking seconds. Americans are the death of this world.

>>5163136
Not necessarily, no military, no nationalism, I'd say it's closer to Plato's Republic meets The Last Man.

>>5163137
>pls no conversation on my board don't ask others for their opinions

>>5163057
Yeah, no. Pro-Worker/Anti-Immigrant is nationalistic protectionism.

>>5163132
FUCKING THIS

How can you be a "leftist" and support manifestly anti-worker bullshit like mass immigration and normalized sexual perversion?

So-called leftists don't even realize how inane and self-contradictory their ideological positions are.

Clap for your burgers like the goodest goys you are, Amerilards!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qBkAAortU_g

>>5163148
Immigration depresses wages. Inescapable fact. There is no possible coherent pro-worker ideology which is not also anti-immigrant.

>>5163158
Only if by "worker" you mean "workers from my country". It depresses wages because the immigrants make more than they would in their country of origin

I would say that post people on 4chan follow these views:

-The choice to be anonymous is good
-Having some rules is good
-Following the topic of the board is good
-On-topic freedom of speech is good
-The continued existence of 4chan is good

-Drawing attention to your identity is bad

-Being uninformed or mistaken is laughable

Each board draws more specific things from this. Anyone on /lit/ would have a respect for literature and its related things, which extends into a respect for intelligence/creativity, communcation, perspicacity and the work of the individual.

What do you draw from this?

>>5163142
That sounds about right, especially with the different tiers of the society and the noble lie like indoctrination ("Alpha children wear grey. They work much harder than we do, because they're so frightfully clever. I'm really awfully glad I'm a Beta, because I don't work so hard. And then we are much better than the Gammas and Deltas. Gammas are stupid. They all wear green, and Delta children wear khaki. Oh no, I don't want to play with Delta children. And Epsilons are still worse. They're too stupid to be able …").

>>5163154
How is normalized sexual perversion inherently anti-worker?

>>5163163
So what you're saying is, native workers should get shafted so that foreign workers can make slightly more?

Are you so retarded that you don't see that corporations use immigrant cheap labour to undermine to undermine worker bargaining power? What good is a union demanding higher wages and better living conditions if the company owner can get 200 spics to hop the border and work in dangerous conditions for 50 cents an hour living 12 to a room like a cockroaches? Your ideology is completely incoherent. There will always be more poor immigrants to import and undermine any gains workers have made.

>>5163163
you're an idiot.

>>5163171
socially liberal, economically socialist

>>5163176
Because it is imposed on workers by elites, against their wishes, in belittlement of their values, and to the detriment of the institutions and community structures on which they depend and through which they can seek solidarity.

Case in point: normalization of sexual promiscuity has seen the number of single mother households skyrocket, which contributes to trapping children and families in a cycle of poverty.

>>5163188
Cheers, m8. Any articles written on it? I'm fascinated.

>>5163176
Not him, but I wouldn't say it's inherently anti-worker as much as it is practically anti-worker, just like liberal feminism and such. By focussing on these type of secondary issues, you get people conned into thinking they have it made if people congratulate them for being a black faggot in a skirt, while in the meanwhile they're still flipping burgers for shit pay to enrich someone else.

Identity politics are like obsessing over the prison uniform to the degree that you forget the walls.

Why do identity politics even exist in the 21st century? There's hardly any systematic oppression of a group (besides the worker.) going on.

>>5163210
Gay marriage

>>5163210
because why are in the age of the jew, or to put it in more politically correct terms "the age of ressentiment"

>>5163210
because we are in the age of the jew, or to put it in more politically correct terms "the age of ressentiment"

When I hear "leftist" I think "liberal", which I associate with the Tumblr crowd. I'd say /lit/ more democratic? Maybe libertarian? 4chan is more against the radical liberal stuff.

>>5163194
>Identity politics are like obsessing over the prison uniform to the degree that you forget the walls.

This is a great analogy. They're not seeking to elevate, they're seeking to recontextualize, instead of improving the poor they're making the poor more comfortable being poor by distracting them.

/lit/ is mostly teenagers so they will be more liberal. I've seen quite a few threads where people share conservative viewpoints though. 4chan has a better mix than many other websites --especially reddit. I rarely see Obama circlejerks here.

A 4chan user would not want anything going to someone who didn't deserve it, unless it served to entertain them.

>>5163188
What about gay or non-homophobic workers?

>>5163221
There's a difference between american liberalism and classical liberalism

The main failure i see in leftism is that they assume workers are good for no real reason other than there are a lot of them.

>>5163221
>all this americunt in a single post

>>5163232
>What about gay

3% of the population at best and decriminalizing homosexual acts went more than far enough. Active celebration of their behaviour and re-definition of marriage (which undermines and has undermined the institution) were and are anti-worker.

>non-homophobic workers

Practically didn't exist until the elites imposed their values upon them through the courts and a deluge of propaganda via the news and entertainment media. Their very existence now undermines traditional working-class mores and solidarity.

>>5163221
Liberals are right wing. You only think they're leftist because your only alternative is even more right wing.

>>5163242
>workers are good
Where did you get that?

>>5163044
>You're so fucking blue pilled I bet you also support the illuminati.
I bet they don't even smoke crack, the cowards.

>>5163256
if workers are bad then who cares if they get exploited? the ideology has a built in assumption that workers are good

>>5163251
No, this is just a stupid meme that you've brainwashed yourself with.

>>5163242
Are the financially elite good? If so why? If they are not good either, they are no better than workers, and then it is unjust that among equals there is such rampant abuse and tyranny.

>>5163273
if the financial elite were equals with the workers they wouldn't be the financial elite

>>5163158

Within a more or less limited framework. One of the fundamental problems of the non-Marxist left is the laziness with which they approach theoretical issues such as this.

To the extent that immigration is entirely legal, that work-visas are given quite freely, and 'freedom of labor' (freedom of capital to choose from the widest possible field of exploitation) reigns -- to that extent, the maximum platform of bourgeois immigration policy has been achieved. This will only depress wages where wages are above the minimum survivable wage, so the effects will be mostly limited to the unionized or specialist sections of the working class.

For the non-specialist workers, those not in the 'labour aristocracy,' open immigration means very little. Even the bourgeoisie has no interest in importing non-specialist workers, as non-specialists tend to work at the minimum possible wages. In fact, citizen non-specialists are desirable, as the employer can then take advantage of 'working welfare' to shift the expenses of his hands onto other bourgeois and the middle-class. For these low-wage earners, immigration doesn't mean a whole damn lot.

The simple, hard fact is that immigration only really nettles the reformist left. A milieu of the better paid workers, middle-classes, and the industrial bourgeoisie that still contributes enough to the average rate of profit to lose out in 'working welfare' are those most antagonistic to open immigration policies.

The question is, why should the low-wage workers give two damns about their betters losing dosh when those very same reformists have more interest in keeping capitalism nice and stable for their own practical interests? Why should the revolutionary left care that the reformist left is getting forced out of bourgeois politics? What do the little folks without a prayer care that 'labourism' isn't working anymore?

So, you're wrong. I don't even disagree with you that this 'freedom of labor' business needs a good and thorough dealing-with. Saying there's no coherent working class praxis that isn't anti-immigrant, however, just ain't so. The sub-dialectic within the class complicates the matter of a unified class policy.

>>5163274
That doesn't make sense at all.

>>5163230
>we r lejun

>>5163158
the leftist stance on immigration made me quit being a leftist, they told me stopping a worker from going to whatever country paid the highest wages was racist so then it only follows that stopping a capitalist from engaging in the investment with the highest return is also bad, if the free market is good for labor then it must be good for capital too, i'm sorry but there's just no way to reconcile this, i had no choice but to be "racist" or leave leftism and in the age of identity politics being racist is the worst crime, so i had to leave leftism

>>5163274
>>5163273
Equal in what respect? Virtue? Wealth? Good in what respect? Character? Societal contribution?

This talk is meaningless.

>>5163060
>1. There is almost no difference between France and Germany save for the language.
Does this apply only to the borderlands between the two countries?
I live in Berlin. Never been to Paris, but I would assume it's more socially liberal and economically liberal than somewhere like Munich. Berlin is very liberal, but that doesn't translate into government. You can actually see it on maps, how much the city is polarised on this infographic:

http://berlinwahlkarte2013.morgenpost.de/

I just find Germany to be terribly right-wing. It's kind of scary how much people love Mutti, when she does fuck all for them. The infrastructure is crumbling in places around the country and she has zero interest in long-term investment for the future of education and society in general. People seem to love the comparisons to Thatcher, which is bizarre considering how fucked the UK is now. If Germany is not careful, they might see themselves in some of the same situations in 20 to 30 years as the UK does now. It will probably not be AS bad, as they will not, stupidly, dismantle their manufacturing industry.

>>5163288
That's an interesting contradiction, are you saying that since we cannot deny immigrants from moving to countries with the highest wages, we as well cannot deny entrepeneurs from shifting their factories to countries with the best profit returns?

>>5163056
>The right is eating itself
FTFY

Look at the right's backpeaddaling right now in the US. They're suddenly pro-immigration because they need the votes.

Cynical fucks.

Too bad there is no actual leftist party in the US. You killed in back when you cracked down on the IWW.

>>5163293
well how can you support a mexican immigrant coming to america to work for less than minimum wage ("to take jobs americans don't want" as they say) and the capitalist moving the job to china? the chinese sweatshop working is merely "doing a job americans don't want", you can either bring the factory to the third world or bring the third world to the factory, the outcome is the same

>>5163299
actually moving the factory to china is more fair because the american tax payer does not have to pay social transfer payments to the children and relatives of the chinese sweatshop worker

/lit/ is marxist for the same reason /biz/ is pro-free market.

>"Probably the intellectual has more difficulty than the common man in freeing himself from this ideology which, like the State which derives from it, is his especial handiwork. The Soviet government rules in the name of a doctrine elaborated by an intellectual whose life was spent in libraries and interpreted for the past century by countless other intellectuals. Under a Communist régime the intellectuals, sophists rather than philosophers, rule the roost. The examining magistrates who unmask deviations, the writers coerced into socialist realism, the engineers and managers who are supposed to execute the plans and to interpret the ambiguous orders of the central authority—all must be dialecticians. The Secretary-General of the Party, master and arbiter over the lives of millions of men. is also an intellectual: at the end of a triumphal career he offers to the faithful a theory of capitalism and socialism—as though a book represented the highest accomplishment. The emperors of old were often poets or thinkers; for the first time the emperor actually reigns qua dialectician, interpreter of the doctrine and of history."

>>5163263
Nobody said they are bad either. Why would you take such a simplistic approach?

>>5163272
You must have a strange definition of leftism is it includes capatalism and free market fetishism.

>>5163311
>hegelian dialectics
>not a simplistic approach

a simplistic approach is built in to the ideology

>>5163308
Actually philosophers were all right wingers from Aristotle until around the Enlightenment. They had patrons who wanted prestige and the philosophers were mostly complicit in that. Not until the many became leaders did intellectuals go into universities.

>>5163288
>i had no choice but to be "racist" or leave leftism and in the age of identity politics being racist is the worst crime, so i had to leave leftism
Translation: I call myself a conservative now to mask my xenophobia.

If you turned your back on the left for this one reason, yuo were never a leftist to begin with. You could've compromised, or looked into leftist theorists who were for a limited amount of immigration.

The fundamental flaw in right-wing thinking, is to argue that immigration will not cease until the economy is fucked. If thereis no incentive to go to a country, people will not go there. Just look at the hysteria from the the British conservative party recently over Romania and Bulgaria being granted immigration rights to the UK. They were warning of hundreds of thousands coming in, and it didn't pan out at all. A few thousand at best came over an extended period. Polls in both countries showed that people had little interest. Just look at Germany and Poland - Germany isn't innundated with immigrants; there are enough to do the jobs that other will not do.

I am pro-immigration, myself, but I realise the floodgates can't be left entirely open, but your one-issue about-face on your political stance is as petty as any Tea Partier, or some easily led hipster.

>>5163299
>well how can you support a mexican immigrant coming to america to work for less than minimum wage

I don't actually support a bourgeois being able to employ him for less than minimum wage. If he were legal, the entire point of employing him disappears. The fact that he *is* illegal is *why* he is employed. This is what makes the American situation more unique; minimum wage work competes directly with immigrant labour.

>("to take jobs americans don't want" as they say)

Americans don't 'want' those jobs in the sense that they couldn't survive on what they pay nor would they quietly tolerate the extreme brutality. You should probably know that the immigrants being employed for this work are generally treated like dogs. Living is better than dying, however, and there's no wealthy imperialist state that will step in to stop them dying back home.

>and the capitalist moving the job to china?

Show me a tomato picker or fast-food worker that can have his job moved to China. The work we're talking about is actually necessarily local.

Industry is not the same thing as service. Manufacture is not the same thing as agriculture.

>the chinese sweatshop working is merely "doing a job americans don't want", you can either bring the factory to the third world or bring the third world to the factory, the outcome is the same

In the end, both will happen. With the growth of China's domestic market, industry actually has to start coming home to roost in America. When that happens, it's going to be a fight between capital and labour over the the new industrial wage-level.

>>5163330
>I call myself a conservative now to mask my xenophobia.

see, you are still falling back on calling me a racist, haha, thanks for proving my point, bro

but actually i'm not conservative, i welcome the immigrant workers! if they are willing to do the work for less wages than an american then by the goodness of the free market it is right and just that they should do so

>supporting either side faithfully
>being this much of a tool

>identifying yourself with a metaphor referring to revolutionary France
>not the most retarded thing you can do

>>5163348
I actually think the reference to the French Revolution in the whole left/right thing is the coolest part.

>>5163347
>if they are willing to do the work for less wages than an american then by the goodness of the free market it is right and just that they should do so

In other words, as long as they aren't legally enfranchised with minimum wage protections?

>>5163334
>Show me a tomato picker or fast-food worker that can have his job moved to China. The work we're talking about is actually necessarily local.

that is the case where it is impossible to move the job to the third world so the capitalist instead brings the third world to the job, which you support since to oppose open immigration would be "conservative" as you just said in your other post, so i don't want to be racist, xenophobic or conservative, so therefor i have no choice but to support which ever worker is willing to work for the lowest wages, demanding higher wages is racism

>>5163347
>but actually i'm not conservative, i welcome the immigrant workers! if they are willing to do the work for less wages than an american then by the goodness of the free market it is right and just that they should do so
Sounds like something Rush Limbaugh would say, mate.

If I'm confirming what other people have said about you, does it not cause you to question yuor beliefs? Do you not see a pattern? Dismissing criticisms as indicative of the left is just a handy out-clause for you.
You seem quite smug, so I'd say you don't listen to anyone but yourself.

>if they are willing to do the work for less wages than an american then by the goodness of the free market it is right and just that they should do so
Nice compassion there. You obviously were never a leftist to begin with. You must be an American, because leftism over there is wishy-washy as fuck.

>>5163358
well they could always have solidarity with minimum wage workers and demand at least the minimum wage but that would defeat the whole purpose of immigrating now wouldn't it? to force them to take the minimum wage would be racist as it would force them to give up their competitive advantage against american workers

>>5163366
so you are a leftist who doesn't support workers right to set a minimum pay either via laws of the state or through union solidarity? sounds like you might be the fake leftist my friend

>>5163347
>the goodness of the free market

This has to be trolling now.

Did you go full retard and turn into a neo-liberal or something?
How can someone flip so much over a single issue.

>I'm against immigration, so I moved to the right-wing
>Now I religiously believe in the invisible hand of the market.

>>5163366
>Nice compassion there.
i have compassion with immigrant workers, that's right! if you don't have compassion with immigrant workers then you are a racist

>>5163387
Is this some kind of retard logic I'm supposed to understand?

I am for immigration - not unlimited, but liberal.
Whoever gets in should be treated correctly.
This does not mean at the expense of those living in the country already, this is why it is NOT unlimited immigration.
Every worker in society is treated equally; there is no two-tier system, like you want. You would have a caste system if this kind of logic was applied.

Does that explain it to you now?

>>5163391
it's the same way people become vegetarian over those little logic games that prove that eating a steak is morally the same as killing steven hawking, etc.

>>5163397
You're making no sense. What the fuck are you on about? You don't have compassion with them - you want them to be paid less than non-immigrant workers.

>>5163402
>This does not mean at the expense of those living in the country already, this is why it is NOT unlimited immigration.

well in american that position is called racist, if you don't support full and total abnegation of immigration restrictions and border integrity then you are a racist, the businesses who want cheap labor will call you racist, the leftists who think the mexicans will vote liberally will call you racist and of course the immigrants themselves will call you racist, in america it is apparently different. not to mention you live on a freaking island on the very far corner of europe meanwhile america has a thousands miles long open border with a horde of impoverished people on the other side so the stakes are somewhat different

>>5163364
>that is the case where it is impossible to move the job to the third world so the capitalist instead brings the third world to the job

Both cases will happen one way or another. I thought we were talking about immigrant labour, so I limited my analysis to jobs that immigrants perform (in the U.S.).

>which you support

Yeah, no. Please don't bother trying to pretend I suggested anywhere rolling back labor protection, or that I don't have an interest in expanding the power of labour in other countries.

>since to oppose open immigration would be "conservative" as you just said in your other post

I'm not that guy, boyo. I'm the guy trying to explain why labour politics isn't anti-immigrant *a priori*, but either is or is not *a posterioi.*

>so i don't want to be racist, xenophobic or conservative, so therefor i have no choice but to support which ever worker is willing to work for the lowest wages, demanding higher wages is racism

Even the open-immigration politics you're whinging about never show any such support. Their position is one of putting all workers on the same legal footing against the bosses; viz. granting immigrant labour wage protections.

You're just being a disingenuous little tripe-seller, though, ain't you, pal?

>>5163402
>I am for immigration - not unlimited, but liberal.

Why?

Why is everyone for immigration?

What is wrong with France for the French?

Your ancestors fought, spilled blood, and died for their descendants' freedom and emancipation, why is it wrong to ask the residents of other countries to fight their own battles and achieve the same things themselves?

>>5163413
>you want them to be paid less than non-immigrant workers.

if they weren't paid less than non-immigrant workers no one would hire them! if you force them to earn at least minimum wage you are taking away their one competitive advantage, basically to force an immigrant to earn the same as an american worker is racism, because they would be rejected and have to go home

>>5163397
>>5163347
You do know that there is a system of unlimited immigration in place in the States right now.
There are poorer states and richer states - people have the option of moving ot the richer states, but enough of them do not, so the poorer states stay afloat. The richer states have not been sunken by immigration from the poorer states.

The same thing is currently in operation in the EU, and it's mush more successful than the reactionary right-wing extremists would have you believe.

People do not move to a country unless there are guaranteed jobs for them. It makes no sense. Don't confuse reugees (who HAVE TO leave their homeland and go to any country that will accept them) and working immigrants (who choose a country based on the available jobs). We should take care of both, but they are not the same.

>>5162989
If you consider "not pol-spazzing out at every possible occasion" left-wing, then yes.

>>5163054
Wrong

>>5163375
>well they could always have solidarity with minimum wage workers and demand at least the minimum wage

Gosh, that's cute.


>but that would defeat the whole purpose of immigrating now wouldn't it?

To find work? You're broken bulb, aren't you?

Savvy this, mate; they come here taking whatever pay they can get, and that's excluding the cases where they're tricked, shipped here in buses and kept in compounds. I'll bet you think sex-slaves are in it for the sick medical benefits.

The point of seeing to it that they get minimum wage protection is that they can't see to that affair themselves. Them being illegal is why they can't negotiate wages, flee their workplaces, form unions, or whatever else. Hence, why the national working class movement has every interest in extending them labour protection. It fucking reduces competition.

The simple, quick way to end immigration problems in the U.S. is the make sure immigrant labour can only be employed with under the same conditions as local labour, thereby eliminating any advantage the employer gets into the bargain.

>to force them to take the minimum wage would be racist

You're done, mate. Now you're contradiction you're original lie about being 'left and anti-immigration' in the first place. Either that or your darling mother was a daring drunk during the pregnancy.

>>5163364
>since to oppose open immigration would be "conservative"
Wow, you really can't help but deal in absolutes.

I'm not that guy, but there has to be a limit somewhere to immigration - the difference with you and the rest of us is that the limit is much higher. You obviously can't just have no system in place, whatsoever - especially in countires that will not support people if they cannot find work. I'm for a compassionate immigration policy, unlike shit like America's or Australia's. However, we can't just take in 1,000,000 a year in a country with a population of 6,000,000 or something. Quotas need to be made. I am not for barring people on the lower end of the ecnomic spectrum, though. That's where conservatism is.

How much of a retard are you?
I can't believe you even think you have political convictions. You're obviously a right-winger pretending to be a converted leftist who "saw the light."

>>5163424
>if they weren't paid less than non-immigrant workers no one would hire them!
You logic is so flawed, it's laughable.

You're assuming they would be entering a society with 100% employment or something. Where did you learn your basic economics? Glenn Beck?

So you would be FOR immigrants undercutting the workers already there?

> basically to force an immigrant to earn the same as an american worker is racism.
I literally cannot understand your insane twaddle.
You're a total fucking idiot.

Stop pretending you ever were a leftist. No one could go so fully retard.

>>5163460
>The simple, quick way to end immigration problems in the U.S. is the make sure immigrant labour can only be employed with under the same conditions as local labour, thereby eliminating any advantage the employer gets into the bargain.

and what is the goal of that? to take away the immigrant's only advantage to compete against native labor, if they can only work for minimum wage they won't be able to compete and so won' be able to immigrate and you'll be able to keep your pure racial hegemony, that's why you are racist, obviously you brits are behind the times morally but every american left or right knows opposing open border is pure racism

>>5163460

Sans the 'with' and 'contradicting' in place of 'contradiction'.

>>5163479
This is such bad trolling.

>Complains of being called a racist
>Calls everyone else a racist if they don't agree with his absolutist arguments.

Stop it, please. You've embarrassed yourself enough.

>>5163479

You're supposed to be the one moaning like your mother last I saw her over how cruel and base everyone was for calling you a racist, and now you're bandying about the term and lamenting the working-class interest in reducing wage competition? Your original claim was that you 'left' the left because they were pro-immigrant, and now, confronted with practical politics towards the reduction of immigration to working class advantage, you reveal yourself.

I blame myself for not spotting you in the first place.

>>5163479
How many more times are you going to contradict yourself?

>>5163000
>>5163029

Dito.

>>5163494
He's obvously an evangelist for the right who is pretending to be a former leftist.

Thank god these fucks are so stupid that people can tear them apart within minutes.

>>5163490
i have just finally accepted that opposing open borders is racism, immigrants should be able to compete with any advantage they can get against american workers, so it follows that a chinese workers who can't just walk across the border like a mexican can should not be denied the right to compete with american labor, so there is no injustice in a capitalist moving a factory to china so the chinese worker can have a chance to compete, opposing competition is essentially racism, this is how leftism contains the seeds of its own destruction, it's just dialectics, baby!

>>5163060
Pfff.. That only applies to the border. It's similar near the Austrian border but noone would say that it's similar except the language. Germany's culture is very diverse depending on the federal state you're in.The culture in Bavaria isn't at all as what it is in Ex-Prussia.
And you can't compare 2 countries just from the border region..

>>5163423
Don't mind me, just calling attention to this post

>>5163504
Could you use proper punctuation so I don't have to read everything you write twice? Fucking hell.

>i have just finally accepted that opposing open borders is racism
Just now? Did you flip flop in the last few minutes? You really are a fickle idiot.

I am for very liberal immigration, but an open border defeats the point of a nation state. If you don't know this, then I really don't know what to think. I am actually against the idea of the nation state, HOWEVER, if I am to live in one, I must recognise that there must be SOME limits, based solely on numbers, not on economic background.

>opposing competition is essentially racism
Are you just impersonating an idiot right now or are you totally gone Ayn Randian.
Untettered capitalism is total chaos.
So you're saying you're an anarcho-capitalist now? Yeah? In the last few minutes, you've swung that much to the right?!

I'd laugh it wasn't so pathetic.

> it's just dialectics, baby!
You don't know your arse from your elbow, let alone what dialectics are.

>>5163523
> I am actually against the idea of the nation state

top lel

Is this you?

>>5163533
>being this trapped in the current political paradigm, perpetuating a vast majority of the world's problems.

>>5163533
No. I am an anarcho-syndicalist.

What's with the strawman? Why is this idology comparable to some sort of white-guilt complex?

>>5163538
No, I am against the current political paradigm, I think we need to do away with democracy and immigration altogether.

>>5163539
If nation-states and borders cease to exist then wealthy societies will simply collapse as hundreds of millions of poor from all over the Third World flood into the West and overwhelm civilization. Then the whole world will be a shithole instead of just most of it. In addition no region will ever be able to improve because it will similarly be overwhelmed by people "seeking a better life" as soon as even marginal gains begin to be made. Wealth and prosperity require stability and open borders are the anti-thesis of stability.

>>5163546
To add to this, the clearly non-sensical nature of the open borders ideology means that to actually espouse it one must be fueled by emotive impulses of some kind, which in the West are usually born of extreme anti-racism, egalitarianism, and/or "white guilt."

>>5163523
>>opposing competition is essentially racism
>Are you just impersonating an idiot right now or are you totally gone Ayn Randian.
>Untettered capitalism is total chaos.

Yes, "total chaos" indeed, you might that suddenly those evil jews are out of the ghetto and becoming rich! opposing the free market is racism, before capitalism jews were kept in ghettos and impoverished, once they were free to compete and be productive their poverty was quickly eliminated, are you saying you want to put the jews back in the ghetto? is that what your leftist is really all about? leftism = racism

>>5163523
>I am for very liberal immigration, but an open border defeats the point of a nation state.

I don't know about that. The historical development of the state in general has been on the basis of property, with the nation simply specifying a certain circle of propertied interest. Doesn't immigration policy mostly concern the more or less easy transfer of workers lacking any property between the service of one circle of propertied interest and another?

>HOWEVER, if I am to live in one, I must recognise that there must be SOME limits, based solely on numbers, not on economic background.

Here's where the anarchists of all varieties actually have it about right, I think. The flow of labour between one sphere and the other concerns mostly the prospect of employment. Once the demand for labour can no longer employ new workers, immigration will cease or even reverse.

It's the eternal problem of national policy; what helps one nation does so at the expense of another. Hence, why the revolutionary left tends toward more open immigration policies despite the hiccups, as that happens align more with the international labour prospective, rather than the (necessarily reformist) national labour outlook.

>>5163546
>If nation-states and borders cease to exist then wealthy societies will simply collapse as hundreds of millions of poor from all over the Third World flood into the West and overwhelm civilization. Then the whole world will be a shithole instead of just most of it. In addition no region will ever be able to improve because it will similarly be overwhelmed by people "seeking a better life" as soon as even marginal gains begin to be made. Wealth and prosperity require stability and open borders are the anti-thesis of stability.

Have you just ignored everything I've said up until now? Are you just having an argument with yourself at this point?

So much unintellectual baggage here. I don't have the energy to try and explain things to you any more.

You've failed in your aims to prosletyse people over to your side as, time and again, you've contradicted yourself, and shown us that your claims of being a former leftist were pretense.

>>5163562
>So much unintellectual baggage here. I don't have the energy to try and explain things to you any more.

Nice rebuttal, you might want to get some ointment for your ravaged anus.

>Have you just ignored everything I've said up until now? Are you just having an argument with yourself at this point?
>You've failed in your aims to prosletyse people over to your side as, time and again, you've contradicted yourself, and shown us that your claims of being a former leftist were pretense.

I'm not him, please don't assume.

>>5163013
>Not possible.
Hi western shit, kill yourself.

>>5163568
>I'm not him, please don't assume.
If you enter the argument, half-assed in the middle, unaware of what has been covered before you've arrived, don't be upset if you look like an idiot and we assume you've got brain damage.

>Nice rebuttal, you might want to get some ointment for your ravaged anus.
Tooting your own trumpet is so fucking pathetic, especially when there's nothing to toot about.

Anti-(work, racism, anti-semitism, sexism, homo- and transphobia, nationalism, antiziganism) Communist with a slight interest in queer theory here who proposes luxury for everybody. Fight me irl

>>5163250
You're an idiot, kill yourself.

>>5163568
>I'm not him, please don't assume.
God, could you be any more of a prissy little shit?
That sounds like some fucking touchy little hipster. In case you're unaware, we all are posting anonymously, and your rhetoric is a near carbon-copy of the biggest moron in this thread - the right-wing guy.

>>5163581
>>5163603
If it's so idiotic then please address the point, it shouldn't be hard.

What will happen when you open the borders and 200 million people from Africa march into Europe?

>>5163592
>queer theory
Just like a Communist to be interested in topics not relevant to anyone other than edgy extremists. I don't even think actual gays give a fuck.

>>5163617
>What will happen when you open the borders and 200 million people from Africa march into Europe?
This is why you've made a fool of yourself.
I've never argued for unlimited borders within a state system within this thread. Look back over, or ctrl-f the word "unlimited," you total fucking moron.

Why should I respond to a question that makes no sense?

>>5163617

It isn't as if immigrants travel to other countries for work and the (more or less empty) promise of better living conditions. I'm sure the eternal march of the Negro hoards would overrun the whole world before any of the silly Redguards figured out there weren't any jobs or homes to live in.

You can see why that looks disingenuous, right?

>>5163640
but this is precisely what the american left argues for...if you don't support unlimited immigration from latin america then you are a mexican-hating bigot and probably anti-catholic too (but, i thought communists oppose religion?)

>God tier
Individual/Egoist anarchism
Mutualist anarchism
>OK tier
Anarcho-socialism
Anarcho-communism
Libertarian left
>Bad tier
Statist capitalism
'Libertarian' capitalism
Statist left
>Shit tier
Anarcho-capitalism (lol not even real anarchism am I rite m8s)
State communism
>Lowest of the low, pure filth, human garbage
Anarcho-veganism
Anarcho-pacifism
Anacho-primitivism

>>5163640
Claiming you oppose the nation-state but not the nation-state's borders is nonsensical.

>>5163647
You're the one being disingenuous. Europe is a mythical place of plenty for the poor in Africa. As soon as you open the borders hordes will pour in. Living is a beggar on the streets of any European city is a better life than they could have in Africa.

>It isn't as if immigrants travel to other countries for work and the (more or less empty) promise of better living conditions.

You admit they travel in their current numbers now regardless of the reality. This is with borders in place. Millions are currently attempting to reach Europe that are not allowed to because of borders, and millions more do not attempt it at all because of borders. Tear down borders and they will flood it. How many more boats will there be off the coast of Italy if people are told that anyone is allowed in?

>>5163636
>not relevant
How the fuck is that not relevant to emancipation? Anyhow, it's admittedly pretty academic, but I don't see how it couldn't be used to coax LGBTTIQALOL people into jumping aboard the train heading to the Communist paradise. >sup guys, we're all for your rights and btw check out this cool socialism stuff

>>5163660
Also, conservatives values are merely spooks for idiots. At least when liberals worship state-granted 'freedom' and 'equality' it's something that is real, unlike 'nations' or 'gods'.

>>5163649
Unlimited immigration applies to economic background, not sheer numbers.

Immigration shouldn't be limited to only the wealthy. We should let in all classes. No one thinks it's a good idea to let in 40,000,000 people into a country with a population of 300,000,000 in one year. The economy would fall apart. This is a TOTAL strawman of an argument. No one is lobbying for this.

>Oh, but some leftists on Berkeley campus were!!!!
Go on and give me some more strawmen.
Mainstream leftism does not advocate this.

THE BOTTOM LINE ON IT:
You cannot pick just one element of anarcho-leftism, and apply it to a capitalistic system. Unlimited immgration (in terms of numbers) does not apply to a capitalistic system - it just wouldn't work. It makes sense in different systems, like anarcho-syndicalism.

It's as simple as this. Stop cherrypicking your arguments. OF COURSE a lot of my ideas would not work in a capitalistic system - that's why the system needs to change first. Some ideas do work, obviously - as can be seen in social-democracy, but many of the more radical things won't work.

>>5163669
>Communism
>paradise
You're killing me. Perhaps literally, because I spoke critically of the collective.

>>5163669
> Anyhow, it's admittedly pretty academic, but I don't see how it couldn't be used to coax LGBTTIQALOL people into jumping aboard the train

Yeah so you get that 3% of the population behind socialism and meanwhile alienate 60% of the population in the form of the working class.

Identity politics are the reason poor white workers vote Republican. Corporations support LGBTBBQ rights AND mass immigration, what more proof do you need that identity politics are a tool of division used to keep themselves safe and their enemies occupied?

>>5163670
>freedom and equality are real
>nations and gods are not

lel

btw conservatives also worship freedom and equality, maybe you meant reactionaries.

>>5163673
WHY SHOULD THERE BE ANY IMMIGRATION AT ALL??

SOMEONE PLEASE ANSWER THIS QUESTION.

>>5163673
>Mainstream leftism does not advocate this.

The mainstream leftism of today is the Berkeley campus radicalism of a few decades ago. Please look up the Overton Window to learn why it's perfectly valid to criticize leftism on the basis of what the "fringe" like Berkeley radicals are doing.

>>5163692
At least more real than blind nationalism and fools trying to justify their ignorance.

>muh nation
>muh God
>muh tradition
All spooks designed to halt progress.

>>5163698
progress to?

>>5163701
Truth, happiness, statelessness.

>>5163662
>You're the one being disingenuous.

I wonder how? Considering I have yet to make any positive assertions to you. Or are you confusing me with the other fellow?

>Europe is a mythical place of plenty for the poor in Africa.

Which tribal chieftain told you that?

>As soon as you open the borders hordes will pour in.

Think they'll swim or walk? You're still being disingenuous.

>Living is a beggar on the streets of any European city is a better life than they could have in Africa.

Yeah, you've never been a beggar have you? Sucking dick for some BK and anti-homeless spikes doesn't sound that great.

>You admit they travel in their current numbers now regardless of the reality.

Depends on the nation and national sphere. America and Europe ain't the same beast to tackle.

>Millions are currently attempting to reach Europe that are not allowed to because of borders, and millions more do not attempt it at all because of borders.

[citation needed]

>Tear down borders and they will flood it.

One wonders who is to transport this foreign hoard across the sea.

>How many more boats will there be off the coast of Italy if people are told that anyone is allowed in?

Probably not that many is my guess. There aren't enough boats to be crafted from all the scrap on the Ivory Coast to transport your imagined numbers.

>>5163673
>No one thinks it's a good idea to let in 40,000,000 people into a country with a population of 300,000,000 in one year. The economy would fall apart. This is a TOTAL strawman of an argument. No one is lobbying for this.

50,000 people where caught crossing the border just in the last two months, the left wants them all to be given free housing, healthcare and education, with those kind of handouts how long until we hit 40,000,000? why should we give all that free shit to illegal aliens when americans are facing rising healthcare and education costs and stubborn unemployment? because to deny them would be "racist", end of conversation

>>5163707
statelessness (the commune) is the lowest form of social organization, sounds like you are confused crypto-christians trying to take us back to the garden of eden, mankind needs to progress not regress to tribal communes.

>>5163725
>statelessness (the commune)
Do you even know what you're talking about right now?

>>5163727
statelessness is the lowest form of social organization, it is not a positive thing

>>5163723
>50,000 people where caught crossing the border just in the last two months,

Pretty unusual case. Check the normal numbers.

>the left wants them all to be given free housing, healthcare and education,

I wonder who 'the left' could be? Your impressions aren't political movements.

>with those kind of handouts how long until we hit 40,000,000?

I don't think you 'get' logistics.

>why should we give all that free shit to illegal aliens when americans are facing rising healthcare and education costs and stubborn unemployment?

Golly, I guess it's grand that no one is trying to do that outside of your fantasy.

>>5163733
I was referring to your description of statelessness as "the commune." Clearly you are a coddled statist fool who can't think for himself and knows little of anarchism.

>>5163734
in which freaky luddite commune have you been living bro? go to any lefty conference and question unlimited immigration you will be shouted down as a racist, it's a non-negotiable piece of lefty dogma

>>5163738
>knows little of anarchism.

i only know of "actually existing statelessness" not anarcho-fantasies that never have and never will happen

>>5163687
>3%
laughing_girls.jpg
I don't know how many women identify as bisexual(completely ignoring those who don't but had homosexual encounters which they enjoyed), but I wouldn't be surprised if it's ten times that. Fuck off you homophobic faggot, I probably don't want your kind of socialism anyway, I bet it's some kind of work glorification bullshit

>>5163744
wait but according to feminists there is only a higher percent of lesbianism because women have been taught to objectify the female body like men and so seek sexual encounters with women

>>5163742
Stay brainwashed, bro

>>5163750
stay believing fairy tales bro, a lot of christians have really happy lives believing in nonsensical stuff with no basis in reality

>>5163708
>I wonder how?

With your reduction ad absurdum of a legitimate concern.

>Which tribal chieftain told you that?

If it's not true why do so many thousands of them risk their lives and savings every year to get to Europe via people smugglers?

>Think they'll swim or walk?

They'll take boats like they do now.

> You're still being disingenuous.

No, you are, by refusing to even acknowledge this clear flaw in your vision.

>Yeah, you've never been a beggar have you? Sucking dick for some BK and anti-homeless spikes doesn't sound that great.

Perhaps you don't have a conception of how brutish and hard life is in Africa.

>Depends on the nation and national sphere. America and Europe ain't the same beast to tackle.

In America there's been 30 million + since 1980, this is WITH borders and deportations in place. Doesn't exactly do wonders for your thesis, huh?

>[citation needed]

Roman in 400 AD:
"Why would the Germanic tribes migrate here or upset our civilization if the military can't secure our borders, that's just scaremongering!"

Also:
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-25496299

>Only 38% of people would stay where they are if there were no barriers.

Yeah, sure, no hordes right?

>One wonders who is to transport this foreign hoard across the sea.

The exact same smugglers who currently transport them. Undoubtedly whole corporations will spring up once it becomes a legal business.

>Probably not that many is my guess. There aren't enough boats to be crafted from all the scrap on the Ivory Coast to transport your imagined numbers.

Talk about disingenuous. Or just deliberately refusing to examine the problem? See above, corporations will make round trips for the same financial gain as people smugglers currently do. You think there won't be a business in ferrying tens to hundreds of millions of people across a small sea channel?

>>5163739
>in which freaky luddite commune have you been living bro?

Your mom's place.

I'm too tired to be funny; could I get a pity laugh?

>go to any lefty conference and question unlimited immigration you will be shouted down as a racist,

Give me a short list of the 'lefty' conferences you have attended recently.

>it's a non-negotiable piece of lefty dogma

Apparently not.

>>5163744
It's 3.5% if you include everyone identifying as bisexual and trans, this is from a meta-study by UCLA. Please do your research before you mouth off.

http://williamsinstitute.law.ucla.edu/research/census-lgbt-demographics-studies/how-many-people-are-lesbian-gay-bisexual-and-transgender/

>>5163352
>I actually think the reference to the French Revolution in the whole left/right thing is the coolest part.
I agree, all political positions today had their origins in the french revolution. That is why the terms left and right have had such staying power.

>>5163660
Surprisingly solid power rankings. I have to agree.

>>5163757
i'm not a leftist anymore so i haven't been to any "recently", for me the last straw of my leftism was when a publisher i once respected put out a book of voodoo economics arguing that unlimited immigration doesn't drive down wages, this is just total bullshit, you could make a moral or ethical justification to support immigration but it's quite clear that immigration drives down wages, this is why huge corporations always support expanded work visas and immigration, the left has become so warped they manufacture lies to support the rightwing position! at least when mark zuckerbrg lobbies for more h1b visas he's honest he wants to drive down wages, these pathetic leftists can't even be honest

>>5163766
wow, i was so brainwashed by LGBTQ propaganda that i assumed it was closer to 10-15%, we are wasting all this hue and cry over 3% of the population? really?

>>5163423
>Your ancestors fought, spilled blood, and died for their descendants' freedom and emancipation, why is it wrong to ask the residents of other countries to fight their own battles and achieve the same things themselves?
Why are you idealizing the nation? Not everyone of our ancestors "spilled blood," and those that did spill blood didn't necessarily do it for ideals like "freedom and emancipation."

>>5163756
>If it's not true why do so many thousands of them risk their lives and savings every year to get to Europe via people smugglers?

To look for work and better living. That part isn't in question. That doesn't mean they see Europe as a mythical paradise.

>No, you are, by refusing to even acknowledge this clear flaw in your vision.

You're asserting a logistic impossibility, as if an arbitrary number of immigrants not limited by their own economic situation can just take the boat to the land of plenty. That's disingenuous.

>Perhaps you don't have a conception of how brutish and hard life is in Africa.

Africa is a big place, pal. The average of being poor in Europe is a pretty sight better than the average for Africa, but it's pure pretend that poverty in Europe is worth an expensive trip and the risk of death in transit for most or even many of the folks in Africa.

>In America there's been 30 million + since 1980, this is WITH borders and deportations in place. Doesn't exactly do wonders for your thesis, huh?

What thesis? My thesis is that you're exaggerating the possibilities of mass immigration, and that immigration is fundamentally limited by available employment. So, yeah, immigration will be in a certain proportion which it can't exceed.

>"Why would the Germanic tribes migrate here or upset our civilization if the military can't secure our borders, that's just scaremongering!"

If you knew anything about history, you'd now how silly you sound. Maybe you would be aware that many of those Germans were already Roman auxiliaries.

Oh gosh, a poll from which to draw wild conclusions. You've given up defending your position, haven't you?

>Yeah, sure, no hordes right?

Considering I used 'hoards' instead of 'hordes' last time, I could make a bad joke.

Actually, I'll say no anyway, because a poll with ambiguous data and no followup information doesn't constitute any real evidence.

>The exact same smugglers who currently transport them. Undoubtedly whole corporations will spring up once it becomes a legal business.

And all the lethally poor immigrants desperate for a better life are going to pay them with what money? I'd lay money that it's the relatively 'rich' ones that are immigrating now.

Unless, of course, there's a demand for their labour. The bosses would sail them in happily then, but that's going to go down legally or illegally. America or Europe; pick your poison.

>Talk about disingenuous. Or just deliberately refusing to examine the problem? See above, corporations will make round trips for the same financial gain as people smugglers currently do. You think there won't be a business in ferrying tens to hundreds of millions of people across a small sea channel?

Business doesn't run on fairies and unicorn piss, so unless those immigrants are rich all sudden-like, I don't see them supporting an industry. We've already established that the ones for which there is a demand will be imported in certain numbers but not beyond.

>>5163788

That 3% of the population organized politically to enact legislation that protects their basic rights and dignity. No government should favor a tyranny of the majority which suppresses essential and basic minority interests.

>>5163820
but regardless of how many would immigrate it seems to be a given that it is fair and just for these immigrants to enter europe in search of better material conditions, if this kind of free market distribution is good and just for immigrants why not for everyone? why shouldn't everyone compete for wages and make sacrifices to earn the highest wage they can find? implicit in the acceptance of immigration is an acceptance of free market allocation of resources as justice. given that, i cannot in good conscience remain a leftist

>>5163827
Tyranny of a minority is a lot shittier than tyranny of the majority, and tyranny of a minority is what we currently have. Have you forgotten Brendan Eichs? Have you forgotten that women are now being forced to share their bathrooms with individuals who are physically male and have a penis because of the civil rights legislation pushed by trans rights campaigners?

/lgbt/

>>5163513
>le speshul snowflake culture syndrome
Yeah they have that too in France. Bretons, Auvergnats, Normands, Vendeens, you name it. At the end of the day it's still all the same shit.

>>5163788
why are we spending so much time on lgbtqabcdefg when we have issues like climate change and wealth inequality to tackle

i don't get it

i'm a leftist anarchist but only in regards to economics and foreign policy. i dont give a fuck about social issues, and i hate identity politics

>>5163838
don't forge the case of dwane buckle, the hard working immigrant trying to make a living on the streets of new york city who was assault by a gang of privileged citizen lesbians

>>5163847
Because identity politics is what the rich and the corporations use to keep us occupied while they wreck the planet and store up treasure. LGBTs are basically corporate shills.

>>5163272
No, everyone thinks that outside of America.

>>5163838
Boo hoo. You know when I was in college I lived in a dorm that only had co-ed bathrooms. No one complained. No one cared. In this was at a school currently under federal investigation for title ix violations.

>>5163847

Because Christians won't stop trying to suppress a population of persons whose basic dignity is not respected by law.

>>5163838

It's hardly a tyranny when one side is right and the other is wrong. Sometimes good needs to be enacted by an authoritative execution of power.

>>5163862
check your male privilege dickhead

>>5163862
>because it doesn't bother me everyone else should have to put up with it
>fuck women who want to feel safe and secure when they use the women's restroom, that must all be suborned to the whims of cross-dressers

Thanks for proving my point about our current tyranny of the minority.

>>5163870
>It's hardly a tyranny when one side is right and the other is wrong.
What makes one right? What makes one wrong?

>>5163870
gr8 b8 m8

>>5163870
>Because Christians won't stop trying to suppress a population of persons whose basic dignity is not respected by law.
Those people have no dignity.

>>5163883
No, you don't understand. No one gave a shit. People were very vocal about their feelings on that sort of thing, and no one ever even mentioned this as being an issue. The only mention of bathrooms during the whole debate was that male only bathrooms had urinals and stalls that allowed men to use the bathroom with less waiting time and this was some sort of structural sexism. There was even a request that ALL bathrooms on campus become coed. I know it's hard to believe, but your knee-jerk reactionary argument doesn't work in this case. That's why I mentioned it.

>>5163891
>Those people have no dignity.
According to the the precedents set by the courts and the constitution of the US, they do.

>>5163889
Why are you mad tho?

>>5163887
>What makes one right?
Proof and demonstration.

Christ, no. Politically, /lit/ is slightly right of centre, and socially way far right with /pol/ and /v/. Probably /mu/ is the most left.

>>5163908
No-one gives a shit about what a bunch of leftist college students thought. They do not represent most women.

>>5163931
people in college don't know anything, that's why they're in college in the first place, to learn all the shit they don't know, asking a college student how society should be structured is like asking a baby in a diaper how the toilet should be designed

>>5163931
No one represents most women. My point is that your tyranny of the minority view isn't even shared by those you're supposedly protecting. Which, by the way, is an incredibly sexist view. Incredibly being used literally here. It makes you less credible.

>>5163788
>LGBTQ
>Q
what

>>5163942
sorry but when your grandma goes to use the penn station bathroom she doesn't want to have a 6 foot tall druggie cross dresser pissing on the floor next to her

>>5163950

Queer. Nobody knows what it means.

>>5163955
My grandma is dead. Both of them. Neither of them are thinking anything. Any other blindly wrong assertions you'd like to make?

>>5163950
>doesn't know Q is for Queer

looks like somebody needs to check their privilege!

>>5163956
That's why I claim it. No one can tell me that I'm wrong.

>>5163958
>i don't have a grandma therefor the issue of cross dressing dudes junking up the women's room doesn't matter

well if that's how you look at it I don't know any crossdressers therefor i don't give a shit if they have to piss in the men's room! how do you like that, then?

>>5163955
>>5163838

The frivolous concerns of my grandmother are of less importance to her than the trans persons concern with their gender. My granny will get used to seeing a trans person once out of every 1000 times she uses the restroom while a trans person will always be disturbed by the fact that they cannot use the restroom that correlates with their gender identity.

>>5163964
I'm just pointing out that you continue to speak for all women from a position of ignorance, from the blatantly sexist position of benevolent protection.

>>5163969
why because when their pissing at a urinal next to a truck driver and a construction worker they'll be reminded that they're only pretending to be a girl? too bad, not my problem

>>5163972
ok well then lets just flip that around: i don't want any FtM trannies trying to check out my dick while i take a piss in the men's room, now what?

>>5163973
No, because when they go into a men's bathroom all dressed up, they're statistically likely to be raped, assaulted or murdered.

But Grannie's sense of propriety is more important than the physical well-being of someone who dresses in a way that makes you feel uncomfortable for sure.

>>5163969
why because when they're pissing at a urinal next to a truck driver and a construction worker they'll be reminded that they're only pretending to be a girl? too bad, not my problem, hell, you can pretend to be a pony if you want i don't care but don't get mad when someone reminds you that you aren't really a pony

>>5163972
Yeah but you're forgetting that tranny's are .01% of the population and everyone considers them to be the revolting freaks they are. All of society should not have to adapt to a very minute handful of mentally ill faggots. Fuck them and fuck you.

>>5163838
Yah, trannies do tyrannically run this country, it is a shame that despite being less than 1% of the population, they run most if not all of congress and use their massive economic power to bully politicians into giving them the right to use a public bathroom. Because thats what they live for, just to force everyone to bow to their wishes.

I honestly, can't tell you the number of times I have been harassed and threatened by trannies. Their despotic rule must end!

>>5163975
Why aren't you equally worried about a man trying to check out your dick while taking a piss? Do you assume transsexuals are more prone to sneaking a peak? Wouldn't it be more likely that a FtM transsexual would be less likely to want to look at you, seeing as how they're more likely to be attracted to women?

>>5163986
>bully politicians into giving them the right to use a public bathroom

no one said they couldn't use the bathroom they just have to use the bathroom for people who pee out of penises

>>5163985
I'm glad you've reached such a reasonable and rational position that is in no way influenced by emotional hysterics.

>>5163860
>outside of America
Who gives a fuck about the crappy countries outside of the United States?

>>5163989
doesn't matter, i "feel uncomfortable" and you can't disprove it

>>5163986
trannies might not but men do and trannies using the women's bathroom is just another case of male privilege and domination being forced on women

>>5163983

In a crude way, yes. It isn't your problem, but for you it is such a trivial concern that there is no reason not to meet their demands. A decent human being would willingly make a minute sacrifice in order to significantly better the life of another.

>>5163975

I can check out your dick as things stand.

>>5164021
>In a crude way, yes. It isn't your problem, but for you it is such a trivial concern that there is no reason not to meet their demands. A decent human being would willingly make a minute sacrifice in order to significantly better the life of another.

well how nice of you to decide that women should make this sacrifice!

>>5164003
Perhaps you should write to your local congressional representative, start a campaign for your rights and dignity and perhaps in the mean time even start using single stall bathrooms to preserve your dignity and emotional wholeness.

>>5164021
maybe someone doesn't care if a guy with a dick checks out my dick, just like a chick doesn't care if another chick sees her dealing with menstruation issues but having some "chick" whip out her cock and piss next you to while you're trying to deal with it is a problem

>>5164026
no, you're right, as men, we should give our fellow men men the right to hang out in women's bathrooms, gosh we sure are some progressive men aren't we! give me a high five bro!

>>5163995
If I am not mistaken, womens bathrooms use stalls and make virtually no difference if one urinates through a penis in a stall. And mens rooms usually include atleast one stall, making it virtually impossible for someone to be forcibly reminded that a FtM is in there.

I am not judging, but what exactly are you afraid of, or rather what do you dislike so much about trying to help out people whose lives tend to be painful and miserable enough? Is caring more about someones genitals more important then their humanity?

>>5163041
prime example of european arrogance

>>5164035
i just don't think it's my place as a man to decide who gets to use the women's bathroom

>>5164035
well maybe instead of forcing unwanted trannies into women's bathrooms you can just accept if a tranny uses a men's bathroom? if you love trannies so much make them feel welcome in the mens' room then, you've taken a male problem and pushed it onto women, but as a male, tranny or not, you feel that is your privilege,well i say check it, bro

>>5164055
> if you love trannies so much make them feel welcome in the mens' room then, you've taken a male problem and pushed it onto women

This, fucking hell, it's men's responsibility to make transsexuals feel comfortable in the proper restroom, please do not start this "significantly more likely to be assaulted" victim-blaming crap. The onus here is entirely on the men in the men's restroom, not on the victims and not on the women who use the other restroom.

>>5164055
I don't think you understand what transsexuality is...
One of the main reasons they transition is because they are not content with the sex they are born with and would rather die then be considered that.

>>5164023
>>5164028

The decision would based on an analysis of the basic necessities which allows each person to fully realize their person-hood. Gender dysphoria is regarded as an essential dysfunction which impedes, in a significant capacity, full realization of ones functioning in society.That's what it means to be an mental illness. "Passing" is a concern to the affected persons much greater than the disgust of seeing a penis in a women's restroom.

>>5164073
So you agree that FtMs should be allowed in male bathrooms?

>please do not start this "significantly more likely to be assaulted" victim-blaming crap

So when a transsexual gets assaulted for trying to use the restroom, the non-transgenders are the victim?

>>5164074
They should be given psychological help then.

That is a mental illness plain and simple.

The current method of "treating" people with gender dysphoria is no different than "treating" an anorexic by giving them liposuction and plastic surgery.

>>5164074
ever see that lady who got plastic surgery to look like a cat?

>>5164095
well the thing is, if a ftm feels unsafe in a men's room she can always go back to the women's room, they have the to privileged to pick which ever restroom suits their fancy

>>5164096
Have you done any research on Gender Dysphoria? Any actual research at all? Do you know any psychology, even psychology 101?

Because even the slightest amount of research would prove you are wrong.

>>5164074
ever see those chicks who aren't content with the body their were born with so they starve themselves to death? should we support them in starving to death or get them treatment?

>>5164096

The goal of treatment is to change a non-functioning person into a functioning person. Treatment for gender dysphoria does solve the problem by reducing the discontent of ones own body image. An anorexic's problem is that if they continue on their path, they will die. It's a different sort of issue.

>>5164112
stop watching so many bbc worship videos, problem solved

>>5164122
well i think that's interesting though, i mean why don't we just pay for liposuction for people with anorexia? or how about that surgery they give fat fucks where they sew up your stomach so you can only fit a little food at a time?

>>5164112
Here's some research for you:

http://www.firstthings.com/article/2004/11/surgical-sex

>The psychiatrist and psychoanalyst Jon Meyer was already developing a means of following up with adults who received sex-change operations at Hopkins in order to see how much the surgery had helped them. He found that most of the patients he tracked down some years after their surgery were contented with what they had done and that only a few regretted it. But in every other respect, they were little changed in their psychological condition. They had much the same problems with relationships, work, and emotions as before. The hope that they would emerge now from their emotional difficulties to flourish psychologically had not been fulfilled.

NOTE:
> in every other respect, they were little changed in their psychological condition. They had much the same problems with relationships, work, and emotions as before. The hope that they would emerge now from their emotional difficulties to flourish psychologically had not been fulfilled.

Well so much for surgery, then. Next? How about CBT?

>>5164122
It's not a different issue at all, in the sense that in both cases the psychologist is collaborating with mental illness rather than addressing and treating it. This is the cardinal sin of psychology. It's completely unethical.

>>5164123
so you are completely ignorant of the consensus of modern psychology?

>>5164129
there was a really angry mtf tranny who used to post on the tech website slashdot, he was so mad that office women were catty to him and gossiped and backstabbed each other, he had this fantasy that if he became a women all the women who rejected him would be his friends and they would have girls night out and slumber parties and all this silly shit but really the women just saw him as another women in the social hierarchy to compete with, i have never seen such nasty hate spewed against women, probably if you google "womyn born womyn" you will find his posts because he used that phrase constantly after apparently being denied access to the women's bathroom at some lesbian music festival or something, rather than having a doctor chemically castrate him he should have seen a shrink

>>5164127
>why don't we just pay for liposuction for people with anorexia?

Because no one could afford that and it would probably be unhealthy to be at the desired body weight.

>or how about that surgery they give fat fucks where they sew up your stomach so you can only fit a little food at a time?

They do this as a last resort.

>>5163104
>>aristocracy gone
>>visible hierarchy gone
Lol wat

>>5164144
Here's me in 1950:

"Are you completely ignorant of the consensus of modern psychology? Homosexuality is a mental illness."

>mfw someone tries appeal to consensus near me

>>5164129
That is sexual reassignment surgery, not transition or Hormone replacement therapy. Some don't even feel the need to get sexual reassignment surgery. And quite frankly, modern surgery is not advanced enough to be all that satisfactory

>>5164155
>They do this as a last resort.

so having a doctor sew some big blobs of silicon under your skin and chop your dick off ISN'T a last resort?

>>5163250
You must be autistic anon.

>>5164140

I have explained the assumptions of modern psychology. The goal is to create function out of dysfunction. Disorder only exists as the primary cause of behavioral dysfunction and/or significant psychic suffering. Illness is not a moral category in the sense you desire it to be.

>>5164161
>using the findings of the majority of scientists is just appealing to consensus

psychology in the 1950s was still pretty new and relied heavily on flimsy psycho dynamics, whereas we have actual brain scans to show the different neurological wirings of brains

>>5164182
so what if you have a guy who believes he's a pony come into your psychology practice? do you find the best human-to-pony doctor to do a bunch of surgery on him?

being leftist is the only intelligent thing a person can do. but, just because it is an intelligent thing, communism will never be fully realized by the human being

>>5164164

Again you put it crudely, but transition is, as I understand it, the only recognized treatment for genuine gender dysphoria. It is the first and last resort.

Also see >>5164163. Surgery isn't the only option for transition.

>>5164182
You're throwing perls before swine.

>>5164188
so you can scan a baby's brain and tell if they are going to be the wrong gender?

>>5164182
>Disorder only exists as the primary cause of behavioral dysfunction and/or significant psychic suffering.

Right, but in the case of people with gender dysphoria, the disorder causing their behavioural dysfunction and psychic suffering is not the fact that they are "in the wrong body" but that they are suffering from a mental illness. Even when they get "the right body," none of the other psychological problems that were supposedly caused by having the wrong body go away.

In the sense that the goal is to create function out of dysfunction, current policy manifestly fails to do that. None of the people who undergo surgery become any more function despite not regretting the surgery itself--much as an anorexic would not regret their liposuction but would continue to be unsatisfied with their body. These dissatisfactions are not based on anything rational that a mere physical change can fix.

>>5164189

They'd probably reduce that dysfunction to a sum of other sorts of dysfunction. If it was irreducible it may become its own category of illness.

>>5164188
Can you please show me a brain scan study done on infants, or in fact anyone not already identifying as transsexual or as suffering from gender dysphoria? If you cannot then there is no way to know if you are confusing cause and effect and the science is not worth much.

>>5164182
what about someone who only wants to have sex with little kids? should he be given surgery so as to appear to be 12 years old (if such a thing were possible)

>>5164191
oh yeah?

>>5164200

And schizophrenia or ADHD or PTSD doesn't go away when you take some pill or do some sort of behavioral therapy. The goal of psychiatric treatment is very often coping with the shitty hand you've been dealt by life.

what about people who would like to be another race? supposed you get a black guy who really wants to be white? should you just send him to a skin bleaching specialist? or do you think there maybe be some underlying psychological problem? could a brainscan show if he was really "mentally white" and just born in the wrong race?

>>5164214
>The goal of psychiatric treatment is very often coping with the shitty hand you've been dealt by life.

actually it's more like you pay some bourgeois guy in a white coat to make really serious sounding excuses for your own failures in life, a new priest of the failed

>>5164215
>implying transsracialism is not the next big civil rights hurdle

There was already Michael Jackson, and then that white guy who got plastic surgery to look like a Korean. It's happening.

>>5164221

Psychiatrists are MDs. They are physicians.

>>5164212
human being is intrinsically stupid>a stupid person does stupid things

human being is stupid because.. just look around

>>5164231
do you have a point or was that just a fun fact?

>>5164237

The guy in the white coat is an expert in medical application of neurochemistry, psychology, and neurology. Certain avenues for failure can be averted in a systematic manner by treating them chemically or through behavioral therapies. That is the purpose of psychiatry.

If you have no such dysfunction be magnanimous and don't go around boasting a deriding that which is of no consequence to you.

>>5163008
>/tv/
>left/liberal

/tv/ is /pol/ with waifu, GOT, and RLM threads.

>>5163044
That is literally a left/right dichotomy in your image.

I'm a reactionary with strong traditionalist leanings. I support free markets with some limited welfare and state protectionism.

>>5164233


i agree, things all went wrong when slavery, the natural institution for providing welfare to the underclass in a more sustainable way, was irrationally demonized.

>>5164344
>Basic liberties are rights are irrational

>>5164344
>implying slavery ever went away

have fun working off those students loans

>>5163694
Some people want to live in other countries

>>5164524
why? what are they running away from?

>>5164344

we still have slavery except now you're allowed to leave and try and find a new master (which was sometimes allowed before anyways), and you're not allowed to be whipped (usually).

>>5164529
people like themselves

>>5164460
>>5164532


and yet, the situations are clearly different. the problem is that it is informal, and hence, far more mercenary.

>We are, all, North and South, engaged in the White Slave Trade, and he who succeeds best, is esteemed most respectable. It is far more cruel than the Black Slave Trade, because it exacts more of its slaves, and neither protects nor governs them. We boast, that it exacts more, when we say, "that the profits made from employing free labor are greater than those from slave labor." The profits, made from free labor, are the amount of the products of such labor, which the employer, by means of the command which capital or skill gives him, takes away, exacts or "exploitates" from the free laborer. The profits of slave labor are that portion of the products of such labor which the power of the master enables him to appropriate. These profits are less, because the master allows the slave to retain a larger share of the results of his own labor, than do the employers of free labor. But we not only boast that the White Slave Trade is more exacting and fraudulent (in fact, though not in intention,) than Black Slavery; but we also boast, that it is more cruel, in leaving the laborer to take care of himself and family out of the pittance which skill or capital have allowed him to retain. When the day's labor is ended, he is free, but is overburdened with the cares of family and household, which make his freedom an empty and delusive mockery. But his employer is really free, and may enjoy the profits made by others' labor, without a care, or a trouble, as to their well-being. The negro slave is free, too, when the labors of the day are over, and free in mind as well as body; for the master provides food, raiment, house, fuel, and everything else necessary to the physical well-being of himself and family. The master's labors commence just when the slave's end. No wonder men should prefer white slavery to capital, to negro slavery, since it is more profitable, and is free from all the cares and labors of black slave-holding.

>>5163104
>every monarchy in the West has been overthrown or castrated
Yet left menacingly and needlessly intact. PR campaigns to show how romantic it would be to be a princess etc.
>aristocracy gone
Old money replaced by New money.
>visible hierarchy gone
We get the biggest laugh out of this one. Aren't you trolling?
>only legitimate form of government is democracy
Corporate controlled shams.
>classic international law trashed
Do you mean colonialist rule? We have the more insidious neocolonialism now.
>fiat currency is now common sense in economics
You'd prefer the gold standard and recessions every six months?
>mass immigration is now common sense in foreign policy
For capitalists. They like cheap labor.
>emancipation of women and children
In wealthy western nations. (Gee. Why else is there such massive immigration?)
>massive "social safety net" in every single Western country
The bare minimum and attacks from the right to demolish them.
>pension system so large and bloated it is going to bankrupt everyone inside three generations (but no-one cares because muh workers)
Money is just an illusion anyway
>...Western society hasn't stopped moving leftwards for the last 200 years.
It creeps along too slowly.
>At this point the inertia can't be overcome and leftists have instinctively picked up on this and begun spending their energies jostling for power amongst themselves.
Liberal capitalism isn't the real left, no matter how much they infuse socialism into it. It's all just mixed economy capitalism of wage slavery.

>>5164344
Jesus fucking Christ.

Fuck yeah, this board has no moderation.

>>5163171
Libertarian

>>5166779

Surprisingly it does

>>5166949

>>5162989
I don't think it's to be edgy or whatever you might be implying. That's just how it appears through the type of books we tend to read.

For instance I'd never identify as left or right but I have Mao's biography.

Actually, I don't know what that has to do with anything. Disregard.

>>5162989
i would believe it, but we have a remarkably high concentration of morons, so i'm not sure.

contributing compass even though the questions are worded terribly and assume a statist mindset.

Well that was a little underwhelming

>>5166971
>>5166993
Disgusting

>>5166971
>>5166993
I took this a while ago and I was pretty close to both of these

>>5167092
cool

>>5163056
>>5163062

both the socially liberal and socially conservative are floundering at this point.

I mean, I live in portland, and tumblr is taking over.
Identity politicking is taking our country down a very grimly self righteous path

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4r7cwWegXCU

>>5167393
its just another distraction. remember that. the cia or whatever doesnt even need to infiltrate movements, the movements will themselves self destruct from petty infighting. the sad reality