/lit/ - Literature

I'm going to slap you so hard across the face if you don't talk about a book right now

>>5153634
I have a trust fund.

>>5153634
I work in a fair-trade all-organic coffee shop. My life is a cliche.

I can't be bothered with accent markings

>>5153634
I'm an electrical engineer. I like it and I still have plenty of time to read.

>>5153634
>full time grad student
I have 2 p/t jobs, one in an office on campus and one at an online bookseller

Welfare NEET master race reporting in.

sagesage

I'm a medical student. I plan to follow in the footsteps of Chekov, Bulgakov, Khaled Hosseni, Stanislaw Lem, William Carlos Williams, and others in the grand tradition of badass doctor-authors.

Just kidding, I don't want to write. I just want a challenging and fulfilling career and then read in my little spare time

full time student reporting
going into teaching

I work on a trail crew for the U.S. Forest Service in Utah.

>>5154317
So you get minimum wage to live outdoors constantly and shovel dirt?
I'm thinking about doing this, how old are you?

>>5153727
>welfare NEET

Get a load of this slimey dilettante.
Non-welfare NEET reporting in. I don't have any income whatsoever, so I have to discretely steal from my family funds to afford meeting my love who lives far away once in a month.

>>5154317

Fellow Utahan living the NEET life.

> inb4 mormon

>>5153727
keep fighting the good fight m8

>>5153634
>have a degree in something worthless (Criminology)
>be a deadbeat who can't hold down a job (had 3 this year, getting dropped from the third soon when my 'review' comes up.
>Drink cheap beer every night
>write short stories and novellas I never finish.
>have depression, but not a faggot who is gonna see a doctor.

My life may not be literary, but IDGAF.

Pic related, favourite authors.

>>5154333
I'm a welfare NEET but I also have a a love who lives far away whom I have to hustle for in order to afford our meetings. It always seems strange to me when normalfags are unable to get girlfriends. Maybe us NEETs have genuinely more attractive souls.

I work in an arthouse movie theater.

Wholefoods

>>5154372
No, but they are becoming more attractive to women as they actually have lives and arent either always at work, or hustling to get their non-work responsibilities done, or resting.

NEET who has to find a job in the next 12 days or possibly be homeless.

Doing mandatory civil service from next Monday onwards, after which heading to uni to study CS. Will probably stay in academia if I win the lottery or live the literary lifestyle while doing independent coding projects before offing myself well before my 60s.

>>5154333
Being in love and not having money is entry level, friend. After that comes welfare and ataraxia.

>>5154355
Will do.

I just finished highschool.

>>5154415
Nice, final grades?

Failing college student with a part-time job at a grocery store. I'll succeed one day though

>>5153736
Are you me? I'm pre-med at the moment but this is exactly what I want. What field of medicine are you interested in?

So this won't be an entirely bookless thread, let me recommend The Road by Jack London, Descending, by Tom Disch, Evening Primrose by John Collier, Down and Out in London and Paris by George Orwell, Free Live Free and The Sorceror's House by Gene Wolfe. All very NEET relevant

>>5154421
Almost failed everything and failed Math.

>>5154440
Lol.

I support my NEET life with my dad-didn't-wear-enough-sunscreen fund.

I'd much rather have him back.

>>5154388
I just got a job here too. Pretty sure I'm going to enjoy it. Access to dem tasty organic foodsand dat relaxed dress code which will allow my proud beard to grow.

Tax office. Kill me, please.

I teach afterschool programs for (mostly rich) kids gr. 1-6. Lego robotics, mostly. I'm in my last year of undergrad studying philosophy/sociology. Planning to go to graduate school for philo.

yeah, I still live with my parents

I'm a model in the Philippines. I do commercials and spend half my time high or drunk. There's girls and drugs everywhere all practically free to me.
But I'm just an awkward kid who wants to read books and make music and this lifestyle's been making me kind of sad recently.

>tfw when not living the literary life
>tfw when still having the literary attitude

I work at a company that sells sphagnum moss to large companies, while going trough law school.

>>5154472
Almost everyone who works at Whole Foods is a faggot.

I'm a chemeng major but I feel like my literature hobby has made me introspective enough to just lose any ambition I may have had. I had interviews with investment banks for internships but I failed them. Now I'll graduate in 2015 and I'm no longer worried whether I get a "prestigious" job or not. I'd be happy with a boring 9-5.30 engineering job. I want time for myself. And as long as I don't have bloodsucking kids / gf / wife then I'll have way more than enough money for anything I reasonably want.

Navy deckhand. Couldn't get more literary than this

I'm studying anthropology, due to get my master's in ~six months, and I'm quite likely to go into unemployment. Doesn't really feel good.

been living literary all summer but now august rent is coming up so idk what im gonna do. probably sell drugs or model lol

>tfw no restaurant experience

>med school
lol, enjoy your depression, toxic culture, and never-ending rat race

I'm hoping to teach in private high schools.

>>5154565
>education
Enjoy force feeding a new generation of uninterested and unappreciative monsters a bunch of trivial bullshit

I am a teacher. 25 years old. Currently unemployed. I don't have the mental discipline to even get very far into witing a novel.

I am contemplating suicide.

>>5154433
Im really interested in EM and surgery. I'd like general surgery cus I like the jack of all trades aspect but don't know if its going to be an option years from now because of surgical hyperspecialization. I'm not very interested in 7-9 years of post grad training just so I can do heart stents day in day out my entire career. Boring. Not sure if I want the surgeon lifestyle but I appreciate all the power and leadership responsibilities they have. I really need to shadow some surgeons and do my rotations to figure out if its for me. I like EM cus its a short residency and you get to see everything, and its very exciting and the lifestyle isn't as terrible, I also genuinely enjoy the people that come to the ER, I know theyre scumbags but I can deal with that somehow. But the downsides are that there is no patient continuity, and once you're fully trained ER docs are kind of interchangable (i.e., hard to be good or distinguished EM physician.) I'm working on my MPH right now though and might get my MBA after residency if I go into EM, that way I can maybe do some administrative work if I get tired of the clinical environment.

What are you interested in?

>>5154590
Stop entertaining bullshit desires anon, you will feel much better.

I work at a bank and just got divorced and have been smashing this radical psychedelic art chick

Is that literary

>>5154609
hahaha oh my god I can't believe this guy

>I have no direction in my life so I'm going to just collect degrees and amass huge amounts of debt
>isn't even in med school (doing an MPH) but calls himself a med student
>evidently has no fucking clue how med school functions
>shittiest reasons I've ever seen for doing EM

I guarantee you'll fail the STEP I exams at this rate

>>5154583
that's why you have to teach at the good upper-class high schools m8

>>5154497
haha how could you possibly know that?

Let me guess: they wouldn’t employ you so now babby is mad?

>>5154632
I'd say so. w2c radical psychedelic art gf?

>>5154634
You dipshit I'm doing a combined md/mph program. I'm "collecting degrees" because I want to go into administration like I said. I scribed for an ER doc for three years in undergrad so I think I know what the field entails. And I got my step 1 score back two weeks ago and made a 255 (that's a write-your-own-ticket score btw). Way to be a hater and show how ignornant you are.

>>5153634
I study English as a second language to become a teacher and translate shit for a living.
Yes, I'm aware I'm not pushing myself to the limit. Why do you think I'm here?

>>5154683
Reinier?

>>5154753
ñope

>>5153736

I approve of your list.

Border enforcement.

>>5154497
>>5154647

ex-employee here. The job pays well and offers a decent health plan.

there are 3 types:

1. those who needed a job (me and many others who didn't give a shit)

2. hipster faggots.

3. whole lifers (faggots who believe in the bullshit and older people with families who have worked in grocery for a long time and are smart enough to take advantage of a comfortable well paying work environment.


tl;dr:
most whole foods employees are faggots.
the rest don't care and are paid fair wages.

>>5154674
enjoy your:

- debt
- awareness that all three of those degrees have zero intellectual worth or substance
- realization that all the memorization of trivia you did for med school is slipping away from you
- lack of desired career when one day you realize that the only worthwhile MBA programs (HBS, Stanford GSB) will send your application straight to the rubbish bin
- depression and mental illness resulting from the stress of a residency

really, I'm never quite sure whether I should have more contempt or pity for medical students

I understand how all of that memorization-without-understanding for so many years is a great investment in time, and you really feel the need to justify it to yourself, but I think you'd just be a lot happier if you admitted how pointless it all was; even having studying science for so long, you probably can't even prove basic theorems in topology or solve more difficult undergraduate-level problems in electrodynamics or come up with syntheses of complex molecules

>>5154674
also just LOL @
- the idea that going into healthcare administration requires anything more than life sciences undergrad and an MBA
- the idea that scribing for a doctor is in any way a remotely meaningful experience

>>5153736
no arthur conan doyle?

>>5154788
What kind of wages do they pay at Whole Foods? I don't know if I could handle pretending to believe that organic and non-organic coffee grounds should never be allowed to touch, but if they paid well enough, I could see doing if for a while at some transitional period of my life.

I work as a magician in mcdonalds

i make +£100 a shift

>>5154820
>>5154829
You obviously have no idea about anything related to medicine... Please, tell us what exactly you're doing with your life?

>contempt for medical students
Honestly you sound like one of the many shining star pre-meds who couldn't hack it in the application process and now fester with your bullshit excuses "well I never actually wanted to be a doctor anyways!" Seriously, what are you doing with your life now that gives you the confidence to hide behind your computer and shit on the successful, brilliant people that dedicate their lives to helping others?

I work in production for an electrical engineering company. I mainly do soldering, assembly, troubleshooting and, diagnostics.

I run a restaurant pretty damn well for nowhere near enough money.
At this job I am either bored out of my brain (in the office) or busting my ass (on the floor)
It sucks that I do it so well because I fucking hate it.

>>5154854
you sound like one of the pre-meds who never realized that pre-meds were hated by everyone else, including TAs and the instructors, because invariably their focus is on grades and not essential and fundamental understanding

just lol @ the idea that people who are "brilliant" go into medicine instead of research or finance. really, I just think of med students as engineering students with a dash of narcissism.

also, I would rather kill myself than be a pre-med, so your guess is wrong. I studied math and physics and chemistry, and was admitted to top5 phd programs (Caltech, Berkeley, ...) but decided I wanted to teach at a high school instead, as research wasn't my passion/calling.

FYI: smart non-premeds absolutely hate premeds and have nothing but utter contempt for them

>>5154854
also my intent in posting this is to dissuade others from becoming premeds; I consider it my moral duty

>>5154820
Also, just to clear up any misconceptions for other people who might be considering medicine and are lurking in this thread
>debt
I'll be right around the nation average of 150k in debt, and be making 240k+ a year as an attending. I'm not worried. In case you haven't noticed, doctors aren't exactly driving around in beat up old hondas and living on foodstamps.

>awareness that all three of those degrees have zero worth or substance
hahaha you got me! an MD is really just a wheelbarrow degree... thats why everyone who gets one ends up working at starbucks with the philosophy grads. Also, the current head of the CDC is an MD/MPH, and an MBA actually is beneficial for taking on part-time administrative positions in a hosptial where you are already a clinician. Not to mention it helps you greatly if you want to be a partner in a private practice.
>memorization of trivia
Not even going to address this, the hard sciences of med school are only the first two years and serve to prepare you for clinicals and your residency.

>depression and mental illness from the stress of residency
you're being hilarious! just cus you could never handle it doesn't mean that all the doctors out there are being fast tracked to the looney bin as a result of their training.

>you probably can't even prove basic theorems in topology or solve more difficult undergraduate-level problems in electrodynamics or come up with syntheses of complex molecules
Yup, you pretty much confirmed that you're a former pre-med that couldn't hack it. Let me guess, after failing to get into med school (or giving up before applying) you're now getting your masters in chem or something because you realized you can't get anything but a minimum wage job cleaning glassware with a science bachelors and have nothing to do with your life, so you cling to the field you half assedly pursued as a pre-med to keep up the illusion that that's what you wanted to do all along?

>>5154879
Yup you're a fuckup. You're obviously one of those creepy science trolls that didn't have the confidence, people skills, or leadership abilities to become a doc and now are beyond bitter at it.

In all seriousness, chill the fuck out and worry about yourself. Hating on other people really ain't gonna get you anywhere, and I'd hate to have you come into my MD stroking out at 38 cus you do nothing but eat cheeze poofs and seethe at re-runs of House.

>>5154908
please stop saying that I was a premed. that is incredibly insulting and demeaning. please, there's no need to reduce the level of discourse here to name-calling.

>>5154926
*come into my ED, not MD.

/discussion.

>>5153634
Allow me to enlighten you, /lit/.

People with wonderful careers that make ridiculous money DISCOURAGE people from following in their footsteps, for what I hope are obvious reasons.

>>5154926
the idea that I would be upset about not being able to spend my undergraduate years taking a predefined set of classes and gaining shallow understanding in a smattering of fields followed by multiple years of intense trivia memorization and sucking up to attendings is as laughable as it is incorrect--no need to project your own insecurities onto me.

>all these non-NEETs fighting for the scraps of esteem

>>5154478
have you read The Pale King?

>>5154874
>It sucks that I do it so well because I fucking hate it.

iktf. I pretty much always succeed at what I do, but it takes up my energy. Currently working a real soul destroying job but doing really well at it, but my ambitions are elsewhere. feel like pulling a Mishima

Starting my English degree in two months, not sure if it's worth it. If I didn't do it I would end up in a 9-5 job from now on until retirement or death. No social life to speak of. Currently moping around, reading some Cormac MacCarthy and making abysmal attempts at writing short stories. Attempting to write makes me feel like I am doing something mildly constructive but it will probably will go nowhere.

>pic related to lit

>>5154465
If you cannot hope to attain enlightenment while your parents are alive.

>>5155003
The trouble with a lot of english lit students, including myself way back when, is that you have a predispotion to be creative, and to appreciate creative achievements and values, but you lack a masculine side to your character which reinforces the desire to create with the self-discpline to strong will to facilitate your creativity. My no bullshit advice to you is to get into a routine of waking up early, reading, studying, completing your work, and writing. Organize your day and get all of the embarrasing writing out of your system as soon as possible.

Too many young beta white guys lacking a strong father figure allow their potential to be squandered by a casually nihilistic view of the world and a needy, self-pitying impatience because the fruits of their alleged genius isn't handed to them on a place the same way all their childhood rewards were

>>5154833

When I worked there, you started at 10$/hr and moved up a bit every 6 months (I was only there for about 5 months because I was just working between moving). The real draw is that all full-time employees receive a health plan. For people not using it as a transitional job, but instead using it to pay the bills, the way the company takes care of you is more than fair. I had a team member in my department that was making more than the "Assistant Team Leader" for our department because she had been working there for 8 years at that point. When I asked her why she didn't apply to be the dept. manager or assistant dept. manager she told me "I make as much or more than them and I have the same responsibilities as you do."
I assure you, when I told you that I told you with straight face about the importance of Non-GMO organics blahblabha, it was all a line in order to sell product.

Some of the workers buy it and drink the kool-aid, but most of us are simply spewing the shit to please the boss and keep the yuppies with their i-pad shopping lists happy.

The other big draw is no drug testing. We sell you organic NO-GMO yaydaydhahahda bullshit and spend our weekends doing drugs.

If you don't care and can fake it like you do, the job isn't bad. The customers are shit though.

>>5155026

as an "older" person with an English degree, this is one of the best posts I've read in a while. Like, honestly, I can tell you learned it from experience much like I did.

The trouble is that without that period of feeling completely lost as to what you want to do, it's difficult to create that routine.

I do have a strong father figure, and agree that it's been very influential in my never allowing that casual nihilistic view of the world to last more than a few days. Every time it did, one look at my father reminded me not to be a useless, self-pitying fuck.

It took a few years, of wandering, but I'm better for it. Cheers to you anon and good luck on your path in life.

Sincerely,
Another Anon who shares your worldview.

>>5155026
Ok, I will knuckle down. I have been pathetic, squandering most of time and wallowing in angst. You've told me what I need to hear really, I have been extremely impatient and expecting genius to fall into my lap. Fuck it, I'm a lazy, needy nihilist too, relying far, far too much on my parents. Going to bed now to begin the routine (although I don't actually have any studying to do at the moment)

>>5155120

Not the person you responded to, but good luck anon.

One thing I've found is that younger generations have had well-meaning parents instill in them a false-sense of what it means to "fail."

I'm sure your parents, much like mine, wanted you to "go on to bigger things." It's only natural they want their child to do better than they did.

What they don't realize is that impressed upon us this skewed idea that a 9-5 working-class life is a "failure."

I spent a long time avoiding 9-5 type things not because I didn't want to work, but because I felt like if I graduated and used my degree to work at McDonald's, I would be a failure.

Lucky for many of us, when the economy crashed in '07, it forced a lot of us to eat some humble-pie.

A 9-5 life isn't a failure. No matter where you went to school or what you did. This realization happened for me when I realized William Carlos Williams was a mail-man.

Live first. Write always.

Sitting in your room trying to force yourself to shit out genius will get you absolutely nowhere.

>>5154647
Have you ever been to a Whole Foods, faggot?

If yora no neet your pretty muach a non literati ;]

>>5154788
>hipster faggots

please explain this term

I'm a student. I would like to be a comedian, and go to the local comedy club every week. Going to uni in chicago in the fall, hope to pursue it further there while taking playwriting and theatre classes, and hopefully some philosophy, music, and social sciences as well.

>>5155162
I don't think that 9-5 is a failure.
At this point in my life, I could go to university in two months or go straight into work. Alternatively, I could have a gap year, work and travel the world.

Out of the three options, I would feel as if I failed myself going into a 9-5 job because I could do much more potentially enriching things with my life (before going into a 9-5 job).

Hell, if I try and force genius I reckon it will force itself further away. I'm going to keep reading, writing and honing.

Thanks for the grounded advice. I'll keep a slice of salty humble-pie to hand.

>>5155162
William carlos williams was a doctor you faggot

Faulkner or some other faggot was a mailman, and even he quite because it sucked

I work 9-5 and it sucks, sitting in an office ~1 hour away from your home is retarded in an age where mechanization is possible.

It's the faggots who can't entertain themselves and who don't value non-material things that force the rest of us to feel guilty for not working outselves into an early grave

DFW wrote pale king about how noble it is to work 9-5 and the dude had two jobs his entire life (security guard and spa reception guy) and he quite one in under a month and the other after a single day because of how much he hated them

Now Zadie Smith is reashing the same lame shit baout "your (our) generation escaping solipsism and becoming closer together" only because her bread is already buttered and she too has never worked a single day in her goddamn life.

I can't stand these hacks. Only Philip Larkin should be trusted on such matters, and also Bukowski in a narrow sense

>>5155298
Misreading

>>5155120
Don't worry about it, it's good to realize at your age that you have these flaws, may go through life without being aware of them.

When I say "routine" I don't mean being a square who reads all day, I mean taking a hold of your life and not interpreting laziness as a sign of genius

>>5155095
>The trouble is that without that period of feeling completely lost as to what you want to do, it's difficult to create that routine.

I agree. Its like this whole dilemma with letting your kids play rough etc, it'll teach them via bruising and getting into fights that you need to stick up for yourself and harden up etc, but it also means they get hurt. But not letting them do these things doesn't allow them to "learn it the hard way" as is important. THis is a brief aside but I feel Nietzsche was onto this in a big way, and his Last Man dystopia is filled with this type of "all-knowing" comfortable figure who lives in a bubble of immediate graftification and so on, and (understandably) blinks when the overman points out the virtues of suffering and so on. It's a frustrating dilemma.

And thanks man, appreciate it. How "old" is old btw?

Also if anybody here relates to, or wants to understand what me and this guy are talking about, then I personally recommend reading DFW's The Pale King and Mishima's stuff

Best of luck to you too anon, see you in virtual reality

>>5153634
L-landscaping

>>5155306
>This realization happened for me when I realized William Carlos Williams was a mail-man.

>>5155298

Relax virgin. I mixed them up. I know Chekhov was a doctor.

I agree working 9-5 sucks in a "mechanized age," but such is the state of the society we in.

"Entertain" themselves? What do you mean? Why on earth would you feel guilty because of someone else?

I don't agree with glorifying the 9-5. My only point was that it isn't "failure." So often, we define ourselves as our profession.

I was working 9-5 every summer in high school. At one point senior year, I worked from 6-8am before school and 1-6pm after school (I only had 3 classes my senior year).

I worked part-time through community college. And, with the help of my parents, was able to take out loans that allowed me to finish the last two years of my degree without working.

Is my "bread already buttered" by your standards?

Can't stand these "hacks"? I

'm not a big DFW fan. Can't stand Zadie Smith. But based on your disposition I'm assuming you're not American. Which is the only reason I could see your reading Pale King as suggesting the "nobility" of the 9-5.


>>5155306

definitely.

I pick up heavy boxes in the warehouse of a Sears while failing community college.

>>5155347
m8 i swer down u fucking gabber dat shit at me agen yeah ur a fukin dead man no messin i got this m8 frm army yeah big bloke hard as fuck one word an ee'l be round ur manor in a fukin hartbeat hes fuckin messed up from aghan 2 so u don evan wanna know what ee'l do 2 u little pussy boy i bet ur a fag 2 u fukin cury eatin paki

>>5155026
good post. except for your lending your thoughts to very very detrimental language. words like 'beta' and 'masculine side' are just wrong when used in the context of self-discipline.

nonetheless, I agree. we live in a world which is pretty shitty both culturally and sociopolitically, so being a contemplative individual with appreciation for thinking and products of thinking(whether this translates to art or whatever) could turn into the special-snowflake syndrome and laziness which is then medicated by narcissistic self-pity. Self-discipline is key.

>>5155332

I mix up my Williams occasionally. Authorial context/history tends to be something I forget.

I meant Faulkner. All apologies.

>>5155347

Old is close to 30. I finished undergrad at 23 from a top 3 English program. I'd need to read Last Man before I comment on it further (but I'm happy to speculate!).

It really is a dilemma as far as the virtues of suffering. Personally, I find it to be a matter of drawing lines. I'm diagnosed major depressive, and I've had it my entire life. There's been periods of medication and periods with out. I've had times where venturing into the abyss (whether drugs, booze, or isolation) was productive. I've had times where it was absolutely fruitless. There's been periods where a day of suffering has produced more results that months of it. And there's been months of it where it felt fruitless only to reveal some small reward years later.

I haven't read Pale King, and I've been slowly reading IJ for almost 4 years now. But from the sound of it, we're both of a generation of comfortably middle-class (but sure as fuck not upper-middle) who were supported by our well-meaning parents to achieve a "better" life than that of our parents.

I'm guessing you also graduated at some point during the financial crisis, and found yourself confronted with "failures" you hadn't anticipated or prepared for?

>>5155368
>words like 'beta' and 'masculine side' are just wrong when used in the context of self-discipline.

How so?

I meant "beta" in the way it's generally used here, which refers to a meek, pessimistic, angsty coward who isn't aware that his sheltered upbringing has contributed to the anger he feels towards a world he doesn't understand. Though I understand it's also a "buzzword" and may suggest flippancy on my part.

As for "masculine side" I do think this is a masculine trait, whereas femininity tends to denote spontaneity, impulsiveness, an over-reliance on emotional or intuitive response rather than a rational or logical one, and so on. Whereas masculinity (as I understand it) is at best a strong willed determination to solve a problem or complete a given task, but at worst a hard-headed, 'sociopathic' ambition to dominate solely as a means of inflating one's ego further.

But yeah, and the special-snowflake thing is a huge problem in the west especially, though I don't have a concrete theory on why this is I think increased literacy (ability to process and retain information), an extremely well-ordered society (leading to repression of instinct and hyper-self-awareness, and thus neurosis/anxiety) and the destruction of the boundaries that retain innocence (six year olds using laptops/iPads and looking at the same stuff as adults, etc), oh and also the advertising industry's targeting or first world children who have money to burn (from their parents), all of which leads to the idea that you are the very centre of the world, and that things should continue coming your way. I think a lot of people know this is wrong, but still feel an almost subconcious reversion to a sort of "why can't things be like I want them to be!" mentality, which can be constructive (if said "things" provide an overal social benefit) and destructive (a hideous, insatiable neediness and solipsistic pettiness)

>>5155368

"very very detrimental language"

I'm not him, but I completely disagree with your outlook.

Your time on tumblr has made you believe these words are "bad" (I'm assuming you believe they carry some sort of residual/lingering sense of what you consider to be social injustices).

His language isn't detrimental. You proved it yourself when you said you thought his post was good "except for the language."

It would seem he conveyed his ideas and you agreed with with them. Just because my friend and neighbor choose to buy a hideous orange car, doesn't mean I think he's any less of a person.

Also, define "just wrong."
Bonus points: do it without bringing up gender roles

>>5155399
Not the anon you responded too, but I think if we ever met in person I would like you.

>>5155326
>>5155326
>>5155326

I responded to you here but clicked clicked the wrong post.

>>5155385
>>5155385
>>5155385

>>5155385
The Last Man section is pretty short, which is why I quoted it. Wasn't trying to sound pointy-headed (http://praxeology.net/zara.htm))

And yeah I agree that suffering isn't some cure-all for being a bitch in life, and it would be hypocritical for me to say otherwise since my own life is one of almost painless serenity and detachment from the real world and its capacity to incite emotional reactions towards it.

I haven't read IJ yet, but Pale King I didn't enjoy when I read it (rushed through to tick a box), but in retrospect it hit me pretty hard and brought me down to earth.

I graduated last year, but yeah I've had to work shitty jobs (flipping burgers literally included) before finding my current full-time one. For the first three or so months of this job, and even now, I find myself like a wild animal panicking in my chair and wanting to escape, and my problem currently is wondering whether my gradual acceptance of this work and its dullness etc is a sign of maturation or if it's me being tamed and made dull. I agree with Emil Cioran (NOT namedropping) on this point when he says something along the lines that old philosphers who sit around content that they've found a solution to life's paradoxes and dilemmas shouldn't be admired, as a life full of paradox is more fruitful than a life of sated acquiescence (heavily paraphrased). I feel like you have to have this maddening, hopeless striving in you or else you become complacent.

>>5155411
>>5155411
>>5155411

I'm cracking open a beer at the moment. Cheers to you too anon, and to the bold notion that tumblr doesn't get to decide how or when we use words as we deem fit.

>>5155395
Just because 'beta' is used in some boards, as to describe the things you mentioned, it has negative connotations because of the power relationships it enforces. It's either used by virtuous-less 'alphas', trolls who feed on 'betas', or 'betas' who feed on themselves. No matter what aesthetic/stylistic value you want to ascribe to it when referring to humans, it will be undermined by those connotations and you will be classified as one of those people... Unless you're using it ironically or in another comedic manner.

Your use of 'masculinity' isn't as harmful, but again, it's a term that's been whored around with everyone so it's losst its meaning. But that's its changing nature I guess, as masculinity is to be filled with cultural 'norms' define males in the present... Which doesn't say much. Self-discipline is in no way restricted to males though, nor has it ever been. There have been trends in literature which promoted this idea and now are reinforced by some areas in pop-culture, but it's up to you if you subscribe to them. As I've said, we are the ones fill words like masculinity with meaning.

yeah, yeah, I'm a SJW, but I think definitions and semantics are a good starting point before we even try to understand each other.

>>5155420
yeah I responded here,>>5155434

Also sorry to hear about your depression man, I often feel blue, and have had a fair few occasions where something akin to a will to live feels like it's "switched off" and is urging me to kill mysef, but having to live with it and resort to meds I can only imagine

>>5155450
>It's either used by virtuous-less 'alphas', trolls who feed on 'betas', or 'betas' who feed on themselves

But I'm neither of those things. I'm somebody who was a definite beta all through their teens. Sure the "beta/alpha" dichotomy is BS, but there are a number of people who possess so many beta traits (instinct to pity, emotional incontenence, valorization of failure, ad nauseum) that they may as well be referred to as one.

>masculinity
Yeah I get what you mean. Guys trim their beards and moisturise etc, but I'm not talking about that. I'm talking about the traditional undertanding of what separates the masculine from the feminine. The feminine, traditionally represented by the female, involves on the one hand nurturing etc, but on the other the type of flaws I listed in my explanation of the beta male. It may not be restricted to the male but it's certainly expressed most faithfully by the idea of masculinity than it is by femininity, which has nothing to do with "womyn" really, it's just that most women tend to subscribe to that particular mode of perception/living. Maybe I'm wrong on this, but that's how it strikes me at least.

>>5155399
my time on tumblr, reddit or whatever is non-existent, but I knew 'SJW' would come up. Even SJW, when used as an argument is an example of bad use of language. The comedic aesthetic it might have had is lost in self-indulgent argumentation. Plus it's been hijacked by people who actually think sociopathy is cool. I've explained my thinking here >>5155450.

The only reason I said I agreed with his ideas, is because I understood how he used those terms and why. There are many people who wouldn't have read them and understood them in the same way that I have.

>>5155469
I know that you're neither of those things. My responding to your post and understanding of what caused you to use those terms is a reflection of that. I'm merely saying that you should be aware of who 'owns' those words before using them.

As for self-discipline used as an exclusive feature of masculinity.. You should know that there are species where the females are required to have more self-discipline than males. You should also be aware of the fact that requirements change within the same species (humans included), according to circumstance. Having a vagina does not entail having the flaws in your description of 'beta' males. It can, it had, it has, it will, to some extent, but it's got nothing to do with having a vagina.

>>5155434
>>5155434

I'm the Whole Foods poster in this thread as well. I graduated from a top tier program and ended up at a grocery store after a year of feeling worthless and being unemployed (applying everywhere with no response).

I know all too well the panic about the gradual acceptance. But for me it's Chekhov. To be complacent and content is to be foolish. It is only in refusing to be stagnant that we truly live.

Words of encouragement:
Also during this period after graduation, I managed to have a 4 year relationship deteriorate and implode (really thought she was the one too). I moved 6 times in 6 years. I haven't written as much as I should have. I applied to multiple positions only to be rejected (TFA, Teaching English in Japan/Korea/Etc) only to be rejected, and to add insult to injury I always made it to the final round of multiple-month interviews. Each time getting my hopes up.

After 6 years on my own it culminated in the "ultimate failure" when I moved back in with my parents. Mind you, I was working this entire time, but just treading water.

Over the course of this last year, I finally started to truly set myself to accomplishing what I had set out to do in the first place.

Accepted all my flaws and failures and got back on the horse. I put off pursuing what I wanted for a lot of personal reasons, but the biggest one was some insane fear that I would fail at the one thing I wanted to do (because clearly, as my oh-so-genius-self has managed to believe these last few years, never trying means you never have to fail). I got in where I wanted to get in. And I'm finally old enough to accept that there's always a chance I will fail, but even that would be better than never taking the chance.

Godspeed Anon.

>>5155444
again, I don't come from the same world as you, so your ideological division between tumblr, 4chan, reddit, etc does not apply to me. all I'm saying is that you are perpetuating confusion with those words. I'm not trying to police your use of language, muh nig. I'm trying to get you to understand the power relations behind them. If you do and still feel that they befit your sense of aesthetic and comedy, go ahead and use them. Just wanted to make sure you understand what they mean.

>>5155450

I don't even know what SJW stands for. I'm going to assume this is a good thing and will maintain my dignity by not even googling it.

The notion that the "connotations" surrounding language are intrinsic to the extent they have enough power to "undermine" intent/usage, is something I refuse to accept, promote, propagate, entertain, whatever.

"Unless you're using it ironically or in another comedic manner"

Usage is also unimportant. There is no get-out-of-jail-free card for humor and irony.

I mean, your posts are a series of double standards and flawed logic. Masculinity "isn't as harmful" but you can use the verb "whored" with reckless abandon? I'm not offended by "whored," but for fuck's sake, at least hold yourself to your own flawed notions of what is "appropriate."

"We" don't fill the words with "meaning."

They are tools at our disposal and can be used however we see fit. You don't get to ascribe value-judgement to the language-games of others. The fact that you think you have this power is arrogant and insulting to this board.

>>5155506
But nobody "owns" these words. This is 4chan, there is no ownership, just the gradual forming of an ephemeral and inherently contradictory consensus (i.e. straight people posting in an serious, aggressive anti-homo thread by pretending to be gays). This whole sight thrives on irony and the dislocation of held beliefs, and every word is constantly in a state of flux. I don't know I just find the phrase "ownership" when it comes ot 4chan a little suspicious.

>exclusive feature
Again, I didn't say that, I just said that the traditional image of masculinity is tied to that of self-discipline, and that femininity is not. Many people, perhaps most, would agree that a mixture of these "energies" or whatever is healthiest, so I'm not sitting here with an erection advocating a veiled misogynistic outlook on life.

>females
Again, you're the one conflating female with femininity. Our own species requires women to be self-disciplined. I was raised by an only mother who did not have the time to be overly emotional or lax and spontaneous

>having a vagina does not...
Yawn. I did not say that. lrn2comprehension. If I described this in political terms it would be the same thing. The Right has a tendency to be more individualistic, self-motivated and work-orienated whereas the Left.... and so on. I'm not saying one needs to be a Fascist to be heart-hearted, the analogy here would go.

using "beta" is fucking retarded because the "alpha/beta" dichotomy is not applicable to humans, no matter what reddit and "broscience"-tier posters would have you believe

end of discussion

>>5155515
Shit man that's a tough few years, and to not be bitter about that stuff and retain a self-deprecating sense of humour is pretty cool.

I'm heading off to sleep now but it was cool talking to you brah, maybe catch you around here some other time. Enjoy your weekend.

>>5153634
>ITT: 99% angst-driven hipsters working at coffee shops; 1% /lit/erates

>>5155536

thanks for checking in on my "understanding."

I'm well aware of the "power relations behind them." Foucault didn't have the internet.

>>5155558
lol beta detected

:^)

>>5153688
>I can't be bothered with accent markings
Spoilers on the other hand...

>>5155543
I don't see how whored has a volatile meaning. It universally means selling your body. All I'm saying is that words like beta(when used in relation to humans) and masculinity sell themselves to those who happen to have some sort of power, or those who definitely want to exert some form of power. And, as it stands, beta is owned by retarded people. Sure, it can still be used outside of their definitions when referring to humans, but it will raise eyebrows at your use of language by creating confusion. I don't want to police your use of language, I just want you to understand what words mean. >>5155536
>>5155549
you haven't understood my point and I feel like you don't want to understand what people mean, or making you understand things would take too long and would be too costing of me.

>>5155549
>>5155549
>>5155549
>>5155549

God damnit anon! You're my brotha-from-anotha-motha!

>inb4 "are you AWARE of the appropriation! gentrification is class warfare. A culture of ironic dismissal of the 'other' is unacceptable! SJW, tumblr, and reddit will NOT STAND FOR THESE CRIMES AGAINST LANGUAGE, CLASS, AND GENDER!"

>>5155580
ok, mate, if you understand them, yet still decide to use them it's your choice. I like you even less for this reason, but that's alright.

also, if you have literary ambitions, best case scenario, you probably won't be read outside of a pool of die-hard fans who like cults.

>>5155594
>you haven't understood my point and I feel like you don't want to understand what people mean
That's pretty rich from someone who interpreted my own rather lengthy post incorrectly almost line-by-line, but hey, enjoy the view I guess

>>5155622
erm. is the post that I haven't understood the one I agreed with?

>>5155594

You don't understand how whored has a voltatile meaning? "Universal" meaning?

"you haven't understood my point and I feel like you don't want to understand what people mean, or making you understand things would take too long and would be too costing of me"

>too costing of me

Jesus...fucking...christ.

Do you have any clue how far out of your depth you are right now?

Again, I don't know what SJW is. Still haven't googled it (probably will after this post though). But you should probably stick to posting there, where you can get away with this sort of shit.

I can't believe you're a real person. You actually exist? Like seriously, how the fuck did you even find this place?

>>5155638
>erm

oh boy

>>5155638

nope, that one was mine. And, again, thank you for possessing the foresight to determine the extent to which I'll be read (because that determines aesthetic value in your world)

Honestly, how are you so oblivious your own hypocrisy?

You like me "even less" because I dare challenge your sense of entitlement? Look, I'm sorry that whoever taught you these things had such an agenda (or that you chose to use it to validate your own), but the fact of the matter is you're not going to get away with acting smart here.

So yeah, making me "understand things" might be a little "too costing of you."

>>5155638
>>5155638

my bad. I thought you were the SJW poster. I meant to respond to that person with these posts:

>>5155650
>>5155680

>>5155650
sorry, universal is the wrong word. I meant a fixed definition for whore. That doesn't mean it can't be used in different ways and understood differently according to context. Words like masculine though, are by definition volatile, since it's definition changes as culture changes.

you mentioned I'm a tumblrfag, so I thought you knew what sjw meant. SJW is an acronym for social justice warrior that people use here. it started as being used in a comedic manner to define (tumblr,reddit people) who desperately seek confrontation on matters like the existence of god, gender discrimination, etc. it's now used as a pseudo-argument for not agreeing with people. kinda like 'you spent too much time on tumblr'.

>>5155680
I'm not trying to come across as smart. really. I kept the conversation civil till that guy came with his stencil one-word arguments. and I don't like you because, despite having good intentions, you knowingly spread confusion by using words in contexts that bring up the political connotations that you claim not to subscribe to. so I don't like you because I don't like your style...

>>5155702
what the fuck? I am the SJW poster, as by that guy's definition I am a tumblrite or reddite..

>>5155120
I've come back to this picture a bunch of times now and all I can say is HNNNGGG

I'm generally not turend on by landscapes and scenery etc but this is beautiful as fuck.

>>5154965
im feeling this so much too man
i find it funny that when non NEETs are together they argue amongst themselves but when they are with NEETs all of a sudden they are best friends with each other and collectively hate on NEETs
>tfw happy either way :D

>>5155717

his "stencil one word arguments" are the appropriate way to point out glaring contradictions and flaws in logic.

For example:

>Words like masculine, though, are by definition volatile, since it's definition changes as culture changes.

Only, words like masculine, are not, "by definition," volatile. And not because of their ability to "change as culture changes," but because you don't seem to understand the nuances of the word "volatile."

hasnlab birsies

>>5155743
you have got to be trolling me. so... a-a-am I?being trolled?

>>5155759

nope. I posted it. I'm not trolling you. Look up the definition of the word volatile. Post it in its entirety, and I'll explain why you're a simpleton.

>>5155717
I'm "that guy" and I didn't use one word arguments you filthy communist. You misinterepreted every post I made to reinforce your own Academy Approved(TM), estrogen-infused babble, without even bothering to notice the goddman fact that I was entirely aware all along that usign the words I did had the capacity to make me seem misogynistic or whatever. Also learn to chill out niqqa, the world ain't going to change because some femboy otherkin from Sheboygan, Wisconsin feels oppressed because Xe overheard (or overread) someone talking about masculinity on China's answer to club penguin frequented by virgins and repressed loners

>>5155776
>>5155776

GOD DAMN anon!

I'd buy you a beer at the bar and cross streams at the urinal if you wanted.

I'm not even gay IRL.

>>5155768
yes, it has multiple meanings. so? is it not clear that I'm referring to that which refers to 'liable to change rapidly and unpredictably, especially for the worse.'? were we discussing chemistry here?

are you a sophist faggot with your own self as well?

>>5155776
I see that I'm being trolled. Am I being trolled collectively though?

>>5155776

>China's answer to club penguin frequented by virgins and repressed loners

I love it when anon with giant insecurity complexes think they're better than the websites they lurk and rage on. 2sad.

>>5155776
I didn't say it was going to change because of those words that I have no idea what they mean. I merely said that I understood that there are people who understand the connotations and yet still use them humorously. I was merely saying that their comedy is shit.

>>5155799

oh, well then if you're aware of its imply the change is for the worse, I am correct in my understanding that this is what YOU are arguing:

"Words like 'masculine' are liable to create changes (for the worse) because of their meaning changing while culture changes"
But words like "whore" have a fixed, universal meaning and [again, according to you] never change.

If so, here is my eloquently worded response:

You're a beta-fag whose managed to whiteknight his way into some pussy occasionally by adopting a skewed SJW perspective where words like "masculine" are "volatile" but words like "whore" are not. And not necessarily because they are liable to have their meanings change (and this is bad), but because you and those like you had a really hard time reading Foucault and it was much easier to get mad at the penis and wear wristbands than it was to actually read.

>>5155799
>>5155799


I'm pretty sure this is how it's working since you think you're being "trolled collectively."

There's only 3 of us posting:

Myself, Cool-Anon #2, and SJW-Tumblrfag-Anon (you).

We were having a broment together and you decided to chime in like an idiot and lecture us from your soap-box how, at 19 (there's no way you're out of college), you are here to teach us about power-structures.

Unfortunately for you, these two Anons not only read and understood all the shit your professor in SJW-101 assigned last week (Cool-Anon#2 and Myself) but were having their broment in language that is well "beneath" their ability to communicate, and this tricked you (I'm sure you'll play the victim) into thinking now was your chance to lecture some poor souls who had never even HEARD of power structures.

>>5155840
yes, whore has a fixed definition. it means selling your body. its meaning is still liable to change according to context, but meaning will always stem from 'selling your body'.

masculinity does not have a fixed definition as it's defined by culture. its definition is liable to change. and it changes even if the linguistic context remains the same.

you either don't have the powerlevel to grasp this very fucking intricate linguistic distinction or you're a sophist faggot who's clearly not interested in thinking and talking for the sake of clearing things up and making progress.

your eloquently worded response clearly show that you can't escape thinking through labels. and I read Foucault both when I was a horny teen who tried to impress older girls who I liked, and when he was on my compulsory reading list in uni. Also, not a feminist, merely because its representatives are shit, don't have a coherent definition of the problem and are approaching the egalitarian thing by causing even more harm to themselves. but you go ahead and delude yourself into thinking that your little internet-culture labels are cognitive tools and/or humour.

>>5155888
nigguh, you might understand power structures and read Foucault, but you haven't used your understanding as arguments. you merely quoted those exact words and waited for them to turn into arguments.

>>5155385
>Close to 30
>Old

I get that its old from the negative perspective, like, you are no longer young and cool. But it isn't old enough to get salty and talk about your experiences. Im past 30 and I'm not thinking I've 'learned a thing or two".

>>5153634
Does anyone here actually wear moccasins?

>>5155946
>not being "the sandals guy"
I pity you all

>>5155925

not salty about my experiences at all. I'm not suggesting I've "learned a thing or two." Only that my perspective has changed in ways I found to be beneficial.

>>5155897

the "powerlevel" to "grasp this intricate linguistic distinction"?

I completely understand the point you are arguing. Yet, for whatever reason, you can't seem to grasp just how funny it is that you believe a definition drawn from "meaning" is fixed, while a word whose meaning changes across cultures is "volatile."

Because apparently, no one has ever used whore in a way that differs or stems from the selling of ones body.

What a boring outlook on language.

I'm a student worker in a campus library.

You don't want associate with librarians. Trust me.

>>5155978
>>5155978

I've heard they know how to fuck.

Confirm/deny?

>>5155959
you can't seem to grasp the distinction between definition and meaning derived from contextual usage.

and no, whore has never been used in a way that is not linked to its fixed definition. it can't be. its meaning can be different from selling one's body but you arrive at this meaning by passing through its definition in your thought process.

>>5155982
I only hope to never have the displeasure of seeing the bulbous writhing bodies of any of the librarians I work with doing the horizontal bomp.

But, they're really fucking weird, so I'm guessing if you're into that they fuck like super tigers.

>>5155989
>>5155989

I understand the distinction.

Still don't understand how on earth you think masculinity doesn't have fixed elements and is entirely defined by culture.

>>5155996
There's some pretty good-looking/trim/young ones at my local branch, maybe I'll try to impress them with my book selections

>>5156015
yet you do nothing to improve your understanding. since label-thinking is the only cognitive tool you have, I will suggest another methodology for this linguistic puzzle. look up the definition of masculinity.

>>5155959
Then I misjudged your tone, my apologies

I work a minimum wage job at a fast food restaurant.

I get up early and only get free time at night.

My dream job is to teach finance at a university level. It's not exactly the literary lifestyle, but it's what I want. Gives me time to read and research, which is what I love to do.

>tfw if I get a PhD it's at least 7 more years of school

>>5156067
8/10 b8.

>>5156075
>>5156075
>b8

It's what I actually want to do, but I really don't care. If the idea that it's b8 makes you feel better, it's b8.

I like finance and financial economics. I like teaching. I don't like working boring 9-5's. Of course, not everything is incredibly interesting in academia, but I've found that it's what I love doing.

>>5156089
Oh, okay, sorry. Would you mind articulating your love/passion for finance? I'd love to read that.

>>5156048

I've been sitting in this thread for an hour trying to understand you.

So again, let me try and understand this:

You believe that any word that doesn't have a fixed meaning [is liable to change across cultures even if its linguistic context remains the same] is BAD.

Yes? If so, why is it "bad"?

>>5154331

Um I actually get paid quite a bit more than the minimum wage but I've also worked my way up the government pay scale by a grade or two. I'm 24 and this is my last season doing that kind of work cause once August comes I'm headed to grad school.

>>5156118
Not that guy, but his mistake was saying that "masculine" doesn't have a fixed definition. In the context of what you two (?) are arguing about, it does, but that definition is narrow, i.e. "having the characteristics of maleness". The point anon is trying and failing to make is that what "maleness" entails differs across cultures. Similar to how the concept of whoring is static, but the cultural associations (specifically regarding morality/acceptability) would change with the cultural context.

>>5156151

I wanted him to realize it himself (because I'm such a label-thinking sophist)

Why did you spoil my fun?

:(

>>5156118
first off, this inequality is always true: a word not having a fixed meaning =/= changes its definition according to culture. masculinity does fit into that category though, as its definition is basically 'dependant on what culture regards as masculine'. I don't think it's a bad word though...

I just don't like using 'beta' and 'masculine' in the context that guy I responded to used because it promotes vagueness. I also don't think 'beta' is funny anymore, because its original usage(a tease for being self-indulgent) has been hijacked by wannabe sociopaths. So, according to my values, these words are 'bad' when used in said context.

>>5156151
how have I not made it clear, muh nig? >>5155989 >>5155897

>>5156172
Points for puckishness, presumably.

>>5156151
also what in the actual fuck?
whore=selling your body
masculinity=what culture regards as masculine

>>5156199
That's more or less what I was saying, yes.

>>5156173

"promotes vagueness"

So we are to have disdain for anything vague? Why? I have no problem with someone using vague language (especially when I don't have any interest in what they are saying).

If you don't think it's bad word, why did you describe it as "volatile"? Vague would have worked. Imprecise would have worked. You chose volatile, and as a result suggested it was bad.

"So, according to my values, these words are 'bad' when used in said context."

Thanks for sharing your values with us. You are a special snow-flake and earned 1000 /lit/ points and a gold star.

You don't think "beta" is funny anymore? I'm sorry :( Want to know what I find funny? Your values.

Thanks for the thread Anon. You're definitely a beta, but it's been a pleasure exchanging ideas with you. I hope all those who surround you use precise language until the end of days. May there be no ambiguity or uncertainty in any of your communications.

>>5156232
nigguh, my point wasn't about distinctions between meanings derived from various cultural associations. my point was about the distinction between meaning derived from definitions and meaning derived strictly from culture. whore, no matter the linguistic or cultural context will have its meaning tied to selling one's body. however, masculinity is strictly dependant on the cultural context.

I hop from country to country every 1-3 months couch surfing whilst freelance writing. Glad I got my connections as soon as I finished my B.A. in Journalism.
I plan on doing this for another year, or two. Then I plan on getting my PhD in Film Studies & Medieval Literature.

>>5156199

that feel when trying to compare a latin based noun to an old-English one using the same methods.

>>5155954
Sandals suck they make my toes feel dry and dusty

>>5156238
nigguh, post your coordinates. if in reasonable reach, I'll rek you, you unfunny sophist faggot.

also, volatile doesn't necessarily imply 'bad'. it usually does, but it is not strictly linked to that. common usage has added that detachable annex to the definition.

>>5156259
We will have to disagree, then. Masculinity, regardless of what the particular cultural signifiers it points to may be, is the characteristics of maleness. I'm not sure why that distinction is so slippery.

>>5156259

"whore, no matter the linguistic or cultural context will have its meaning tied to selling one's body. however, masculinity is strictly dependant on the cultural context."

lol. masculinity is "strictly based on the cultural context"?

ahaahaha shit 10/10

>>5154363
You sound like bukowski

>>5156283
ight muh nig. if it's strictly limited to 'the characteristics of maleness', then that post about 'self-discipline is masculine' is even more retarded. less nuanced, but more retarded.

>>5153634
first time on this board

this fucking picture lel

thank you /lit/

actuarial studies

>>5156286
" "whore, no matter the linguistic or cultural context will have its meaning tied to selling one's body. however, masculinity is strictly dependant on the cultural context." "

lol. " masculinity is "strictly based on the cultural context"? " ?

ahahahah shit 10/10

>>5156300
Well I didn't read that far back before jumping in. I didn't realize this was like an "inability of one party to perceive cultural assumptions" thing.

>>5156283
>>5156283

it's because he, and the rest of /mlp/ find it very offensive when you suggest "masculine" refers to "maleness" (the sex; not the gender). Because they want very much to claim "masculinity" is a culturally defined concept that has no roots in maleness (sex).

>>5156315
yes, twas. then I adapted to his sophistic faggotry/narcissistic need for intellectual one upmanship.

>>5156321
you nigguz keep sayin /mlp/ and things like ''femboy otherkin from Sheboygan, Wisconsin feels oppressed because Xe overheard (or overread) someone talking about masculinity on China's answer to club penguin''. I don't know what these things mean. what I do know is that shitty internet culture label-thinking.

>>5156315
>>5156315

nah, you read the situation correctly, aside from my trying to get this kid to post his own contradictory assertion, you came in late and got everything right. just didn't account for the fact I was being a "sophist faggot" by trying to make him post his own mistakes

>>5156321
I get that, I just don't understand how that precludes it from being gender-dependent. If I were to talk about a horses equine characteristics, I might laud a variety of features depending on my cultural viewpoint, but none of those viewpoints would change the fact that I'm talking about a horse.

>>5154879
So should nobody be a doctor then, you fucking autist?

>>5156329
>>5156329

you're the first worthy adversary I've come across in a while.

usually I'm stuck getting my jollies off by shitposting on /mu/

>>5156351
>The trouble with a lot of english lit students, including myself way back when, is that you have a predispotion to be creative, and to appreciate creative achievements and values, but you lack a masculine side to your character which reinforces the desire to create with the self-discpline to strong will to facilitate your creativity.

nois one, m8.

also, could you please post 'my contradictory assertion' so I can see it for myself?

>>5156366
you shouldn't be looking for adversaries on 4chan you hypocritical self-indulgent, sophist faggot. but I get how real-life social environments can not provide enough worthy rhetor adversaries for a 'non-beta' like you.

so what music do you fucks wit, faggot?

>>5156352
>>5156352

because to beta-fedora-neckbeard-psuedo-intellectual nerds, anything that challenges their useless and poorly wrought opinions is "social injustice." it's the patriarchy, capitalism, rape-culture, or whatever other catchphrase tumblr has chosen for this week that is attempting to control them and victimize them. when the reality is they just hate any "label" they don't get to chose themselves.

you and I would call a horse a horse and a spade a spade. But to them, that horse didn't chose "horse." Does that spade "feel like a spade on the inside."

From what I've gathered, it's really just that they spend far too much time thinking about what other people "label" them.

Because they have no agency (they do, but admitting that would require them to take accountability for their lives)

>>5156414
I can't believe I'm in a graduate setting and I've yet to run across someone who would deny the utility of language to such an extent. How could you possibly, without immediately recognizing the foolishness of the very act of communicating it? Perhaps thats why, they only exist on the internet?

>>5156414
too bad I wasn't one of your beta-fedora-neckbeard-psuedo-intellectual nerds

also
>you and I would call a horse a horse and a spade a spade. But to them, that horse didn't chose "horse." Does that spade "feel like a spade on the inside."
>self-discipline is masculinity

nigguh, you dunn goofed. your anger is as ridiculous as tumblr faggotry

>>5156368

you replied to two different people. I'm the one you linked. the greentext is someone else.

What was your mistake?

Suggesting masculinity does not have a definition that transcends its cultural context (it does).

>>5156431
no, it doesn't.

>>5156431
the whole fucking conversation started from that greentexted post. I agree that masculinity has a definition that transcends the cultural context. it's about having the characteristics of a male which doesn't say much from a cultural perspective. self-discipline isn't about being a male. that's why I told that anon he was wrong in using masculinity in that context. then you proceeded to dump your image-board label-thinking on me. do I really have to narrate my life now?

>>5156430

again, you're confusing two different people:

I didn't say self discipline was masculinity, someone else did.

>>5156428

Congratulations on "being in a graduate setting"!

First:
Work on those comma splices before submitting your thesis.

Second:

How do you feel I am "denying the utility of language"?

Define your terms. I'll reply after I get back from having a cigarette.

>>5156451

I thought you were one person. There were two of you (look at the post right above yours).

You thought me and the person who defined "self-discipline" as a masculine trait are the same person. We're not.

>>5156453
again you're thinking that you can actually think. >>5156451

general contractor
>the literary life

>>5156453
As I am again confused as to who exactly you are and which arguments to attribute to you, I couldn't say in what way you were denying utility. What I meant by that (generally) was that some anon was describing a hypothetical person (again, I am unsure if this thread actually contained one or they were speaking broadly) who would debate not only the definition of masculinity, but the very act of using words as signposts of meaning. It occurs to me that my usage of "you" in that post may have led the poster I was responding to to think I was attacking them, instead of being in agreement. Apologies. Additionally, I wasn't using "graduate level" as some sort of laurel, there's a broad range of perfectly stupid people in grad school. I was imagining that it was the sort of setting you'd find a larger % of SJW types.

>>5156466
while 'beta-fedora-neckbeard-psuedo-intellectual nerds' are dumping their 'does that spade feel like a spade on the inside' definitions on masculinity, you're probably dumping your own biases on it.

if you truly think 'a spade is a spade', then you would think that masculinity doesn't have many descriptive capabilities as far as cultural distinctions go. that would lead you to subscribe to my idea that it's a bad word within that context anon used (you were aware of the context, since that's when you jumped into the convo). but you dump your own flavour of bias on it, just like everyone else. only I have a feeling your flavour is even more dangerous than the beta-fedora-boring-endless-internet-culture-labels.

>>5156505
nigguh, you are saying that someone's strawman is denying the utility of language. you dumb as fuck, muh 'grad' nig.

>>5156505
>>5156505
>>5156505

AH! I get it now. We are in agreement. As for the people who would debate the act of using words as signposts, there are a few of them in this very thread.

Good luck with your studies Anon! Sorry for putting you on blast for that comma splice.

>>5154341
mormon

>>5156519
>phew, you agree wit me, yet can't spot strawmen, so sorry, cuz I'm not about truths, I'm about power, cuz dass alpha

>>5156513
Luckily I'm in a professional program and don't have to write a thesis!

>>5156533
Unlike yourself, as you clearly let them stand?

>>5156509

"bad" words?
"dangerous flavours"?

There will always be bias personal bias, but I probably dislike your style as much as you dislike mine.

>>5154363
Nice strategic display of your own books fuckhead
Am I a pleb for not knowing any of those books?
No, I'm an adult

>>5156547

lol'd

>>5156544
yeya, puhrsonal bias can't be disproven as muh subjectivity isn't falsifiable. for the sake of clarity, ascribe a few traits to masculinity.

here's mine: being a male and having the associated characteristics of personality that come with this genetic make up. as far as distinctions from women, we're more aggressive because we're males. that's the only one I can think of and back up, due to my limited knowledge of biology.

your turn.

>>5156544
>>5156567
c'mon mayne. own that alphaness.

>>5156547
>Winter soups

>>5156104
Sorry, was out for a while.

I think that the idea of stock and commodities markets are really interesting. The idea that we're selling parts of a company, and that people are making money off the arbitrage--the difference between the "correct" or "true" value of the stock or bond or whatever and the market price of that financial product--is interesting because it's so constructed, a creation of the mind rather than something you can hold and touch.

I also really believe in the idea of finance and grassroots business. Though modern bankers are at fault for alot of shit that has happened to people (fucking around in mortgage derivatives,as well as failing to take into account their own influence on the market when making valuation calculations), the original idea of banking, a safe place to keep your money as well as a vehicle for capital is a radical idea. I'd love to research microfinance, which is an idea created by an Indian man who realized the need to give the poor, lower castes capital funding. I actually think that a microfinance program would do well in Detroit. (Inb4 libertarian, hell no. I consider welfare capitalism a superior economic system).

Most of finance is valuation, which is not the most interesting subject in the world, but the applications can help fund innovation in science, explorations in art, and new frontiers in philanthropy. Alternatively, it can be used by greedy misanthropes who are willing to sell the future for the present. This is why I feel comfortable teaching a subject like this. Instilling a sense of ethics in the study is something I believe is sorely needed. I want to teach finance with a focus on what the study can bring to those in need, such as the poorer castes in India.

If I sound like a shill, I'm sorry, but it's something I truly enjoy. I would be perfectly happy teaching and researching. It's not a literary lifestyle per say, but it's not a 9-5, and I'd have some leeway in schedule and work.

>>5156746
sure, so you're not down with packing real money in more packets of virtual money that holds more value, in order to make more money.

how bout a thought experiment? how would you envision finance within anarcho-syndicalism?

>>5153634
I'm pre-law.

>>5154499

i feel that feel, anon. i wish the whole world did.

>>5156767
I don't have a problem with purchasing financial products, though I do realize that financiers, day trade gamblers, and hedge fund wizards can have a negative effect on the market and economy, and there needs to be regulation. Many philanthropists have money in the market, and this allows them to continue giving money to humanitarian causes.

I'm not well versed at all in the idea of anarcho-syndicalism, and am mainly going off the wikipedia article, so correct me if I'm wrong about anything. It would be possible for money collectives to form, where people could put their money and invest or provide capital to other worker cooperatives, but you struggle with the problem of deciding where to give the money. If the fund is too large, it's difficult for everyone to come together to decide who to give what, what sort of risk is posed, etc. If the fund is too small, no real capital could be provided to industries that require lots of capital, such as the technology industry or many of the mining divisions of manufacturing companies, to name a few. Only with an investment manager trained and dedicated to the task would a cooperative be able to make sound investments and be able to gather its money back. This is obviously hierarchical, and seems to go against the idea of anarcho-syndicalism as a worker-first ideology.

I also believe government regulation is necessary, above and beyond the idea of private property to include monopoly control and risk ceilings (ie, you can't leverage your company or collective 80-1 and then bet it all on a risky short of a stock). Anarcho-syndicalism is fundamentally an anti-authority, anti-"statism" ideology, which makes it difficult to bestow these types of authority on central powers.

I love the idea of money collectives (that's basically what a normal bank or credit union is) but managers and central power must exist for a sophisticated finance and economic system, in my opinion.

Again, I might be misconstruing the concept of anarcho-syndicalism, so correct me if I'm wrong.

>>5156878
> Only with an investment manager trained and dedicated to the task would a cooperative be able to make sound investments and be able to gather its money back. This is obviously hierarchical, and seems to go against the idea of anarcho-syndicalism as a worker-first ideology.

It's not about a de-facto rejection of hierarchy. It's about rejecting the distribution of sociopolitical power based on a pre-set hierarchy [so pretty much anything we've had so far, stateism, social democracies(also stateism), capitalism (whether unregulated ancap tyrannies, or state-protected capitalist monopolies), etc]. So if people would freely associate themselves and build a model for organizing a cooperative, that's fine. It wouldn't be a hierarchy, because the positions hold no (central) sociopolitical power. Think of university departments as a micro environment that reflects anarcho-syndicalism, people freely associate for research, build their own schedule, yet agree to work for less money than they would get at multi-national corporations because they keep their sociopolitical freedom. It's not a perfect example, but I think it's as close we get to it today.

The change would have to be gradual. Abolishing the state abruptly would be moronic. However, supporting a a state, through social democracy, that allows the formation of such cooperatives is possible. We would simply have to abolish private (not personal) propert, in that an enterprise would be owned by its workers who freely associate and naturally come up with a 'hierarchy'. We don't have to start from scratch. We have plenty of valid examples of successful models in all sorts of disciplines. Finance, Business, Economy, etc. Just leave sociopolitical hierarchy behind.

I think thinking of finance within such a system would be challenging, as I'm assuming you'd have to overcome many 'biases' that you were taught to be the foundation of finance.

Also, why do we need a 'ssophisticated' finance and economic system? I'm not saying anrcho-synd wouldn't require one, as I don't know if it would... but why 'sophisticated'?

>>5156936
When I say sophisticated, I mean a system that allows for nearly instantaneous capital and information. A nation-backed currency is also a sophisticated economic system.

I think it's very difficult to have these things without central power, and there are incredible advantages to being able to find funding for innovative ideas, to know the going price for any commodity, and to be able to combat unemployment with federal reserve policy.

I agree, I do have a bias towards a capitalist system. I believe that markets are the best way to determine prices, and that allowing people to create a business and become wealthy is not wrong, as economics is not a zero-sum game (ie, one person becoming wealthy does not mean some other person is becoming poor and destitute).

I'm open to anything that works though. I don't consider myself infallible, and believe that entertaining other ideas and systems is valuable and interesting. If an anarcho-syndicalist system could make humanity better overall (in the sense of basic physical needs as well as other comforts and psychological needs) I'd fully support it. However, I believe that lack of central power is a difficult sell. I also believe that sociopolitical power based on a pre-set hierarchy is inevitable, though it can and should be minimized as much as possible.

Since this is a literature board, any recommended reading on the subject?

>>5156972
I know how it could seem utopic. That's why I was saying abolishing the state at this point would be insane. Steering the state towards a social democracy in which private enterprise (top to bottom pyramidal hierarchies) and wage-labour would be replaced by cooperatives in which people freely associate would be a good idea. And I think university departments are proof it works (equal access to means of production and free association), although there are hierarchies imposed on them by the private sector(indirectly) and the state(directly).Think of anarcho-syndicalism as a means of challenging hierarchies and asking people to justify their positions within them. Most couldn't.

I hate so say his name here, as it will initiate trolling. But Chomsky's On Anarchism (good intro) and Power Systems, Manufacturing Consent+ his general political commentary is basically rooting for this, as it's saying why anarcho-syndicalism would be the only form of liberalism (freedom+sociopolitical equality). Till you get his work you could also just type his name into youtube, followed by anarcho-syndicalism. Also Anarcho-Syndicalism: Theory and Practice. An Introduction to a Subject Which the Spanish War Has Brought into Overwhelming Prominence is a good start and here's Chomsky's preface to it http://www.chomsky.info/books/state01.htm .

I would love to see a serious work that addresses the world of finance within a truly liberal system.

>>5153634
In an investment company

>>5154440
Damn it anon get it together.

Better hope you get time to read in the military or a trade.

>>5154983

Yes, and it is terrifyingly accurate. Never ever get a government job unless you want to become an automaton.

>>5153634
I work the counter at a dry cleaners. I spent most of my days reading. Am I living the literary lifestyle?

guise, here's a thread for literary partnerships:
>>5158149

>>5153634
at a hardware store cutting keys.

>>5154820
So should we just have no doctors then you fucking autist?

>>5154946
What the fuck is wrong with you? Are you a STEMfag who got so buttmad that liberal arts majors didn't pay attention to your feigned superiority, that you now have to take out your eufedoric anger on other STEMfags? I can guarantee that nobody likes to be around you irl.

>>5157816
Quit you pussy

Serious question: what is the literary life and why do you envy it? Is the literary the same as the good life, and if the literary life is not the good life, then is it not a kind of evil life? And if it is an evil life, then shouldn't you refrain from envying it?

>>5159894
go back to bed aristotle

>>5159900
b-b-but muh dialectic

>>5159894
The literary life is an idle, bohemian life. It's the good life for some.

What should I study /lit/?
Is it a good idea to study out of my country?