/lit/ - Literature

>implying sci-fi/fantasy has any literary merit

>Implying fantasy can be good

Because he pretty much covered it all

But I love Harry Potter...

>>512946
>implying scifi/fantasy can't be used as a good allegory for our current situations and problems without directly referencing them

>>512947
>>512946

Yeah, but I'm surprised people revel in some of the mainstream literary shit that is out there. SciFi/Fantasy at least takes some originality to come up with inventions solely from the imagination.

>>512954

Oh like the Bible.

facepalm.jpg

>>512951
I liked Harry Potter when I was growing up.

Funny enough, I started hating it around book 4 (I was 15 at the time)

>>512956

>implying that you don't create or imagine anything in writing literary fiction

>>512959

To be honest I don't know why I love it, I can acknowledge that it doesn't have much substance as actual literature, but its always kinda drawn me...

Because you haven't written it yet.

Book "series" are all shit. If you can't adequately explore whatever it is your story is trying to accomplish in one book, then you're a shitty writer.

Series are entirely about cashing in on name recognition, rehashing shit, and being a lazy fuck.

>>512960

I'm not saying you don't, but when you come up with something original in terms of an unknown or unreachable item, such as high technology or mythical creatures, you must do so AND tell a believable story.

In mainstream literature, you just need to tell a believable story.

Proust would disagree.

Harry potter is pretty good, but definitely not comparable to Tolkien

you know, science fiction or any genre fiction is only bad when they follow a general formula, but when you have something original like diamond age, or Neuromancer, it's not exactly bad or with out merit. the only difference is that it's set in a different time. it's just as well written and thought out as anything that is "realistic fiction" which is really becoming more of a genre now anyway.

>>512974

Wow yeah I guess you're right. It's so much harder to write about a love story on the moon than it is to write a book about the human condition. The "sci" in sci-fi is just filler crap in an otherwise mediocre novel.

>>512943

You need to get out more.

Ursula K. LeGuin

Also

>implying Tolkien was all that good

fuck I know you're trolling but I feel compelled to respond.

Tolkien's fine and dandy, he's a fun writer, his stories can be interesting, etc, but it's not really great literature or anything - he never claimed it was, it was just his hobby.

>>512988
>harry potter
>pretty good
lolno

it started out as passable generic fantasy but then got progressively shittier as time went on

>>513061

that may be true, but his greatness comes from the fact that he gave birth to the modern fantasy genre, he took elves, dwarfs and all of the other magical creatures out of the short, childrens fairy tales section and put it into the adult section of the book store.

and i though all you needed to make a "canon" novel was to make everything an allegory for everything, and if it's an allegory for WW2, and not everyone could see it right off the bat, then you were immediately "canon"

just a suggestion, but I think Robert Jordan's "Wheel of Time" series is great fantasy. It slows down around books 8-10 but picks up again after that.

>>513072

It isn't actually "good", but if you grew up with it...

>>513100
I grew up with Barney the Dinosaur, you don't see me trying to convince people it's good.

Jim Butcher.

Both of his main series are pretty good once you get into them.

Sword of Truth is one truly riveting series that creates exemplary ideas of both criticism on modern society and astute moral character in a rich fantasy world.

>>512943
Because Americans don't read Angela Carter.

>>513291
>Covert Ayn Rand trolling.
Nice try, old chap. Nice try.

BOOM

I've grown tired of Fantasy novels where the good guys win against the most insane odds. Hence, A Song of Ice and Fire.

pic related.

>>512968
Oh, so Updike's "Rabbit" series was all about cashing in and shitty writing, despite the fact he wrote it over 30+ years and won two Pulitzers for it. Cool story, bro.

>>513072

This is so fucking true, I think it's because after book 4 she kept expanding the 'scope' of the story, but never did any more world building.

There's been a ton of good fantasy since then. The only thing is, nowadays we call fantasy with any literary worth "magical realism".

Also

>implying Tolkien is good

>>514280
I have never heard of "magical realism". You are full of pish and tosh.

Tolkien may not have been the greatest writer in a technical sense, but the fictional universe he created is better than any before or since.

>>514289
Actually no, s/he isn't. Magical realism is very popular and well-known, you just haven't heard of it until now. 100 Years of Solitude is a perfect example.

>>514294

Rushdie is an author of Magical Realist novels.

You know what, /lit/? This thread tells me that you're all, well, a bunch of dicks. Seriously, read this fucking thread over.

>>514325

Say that to my face fucker and not online and see what happens.

>>512968

This is wrong on so many levels. I have no choice but to call troll.

Gene Wolfe

>>513341
this bitches, Gene Wolfe is god tier of fantasy/scifi

also
>>513367

also also Iain M. Banks

i'm in college. i recently read all of harry potter. i thought it was nice, like a good DVD movie.

Wheel of Time

>>514476
sucked balls

>>514289

What are you even doing on a literature forum? Read a little first.

Fritz Leiber's "Swords" novels. seven of them. the protagonists would steal Aragorn's horse out from under his ass.

Moorcock's Eternal Champion books. about fifty of them. the same hero being reincarnated into different bodies in different dimensions, fighting for hopeless causes.

Poul Anderson. E.R.Eddison. Jack Vance's "Lyonesse" trilogy, his Dying Earth novels. jesus christ, kid, you need to get out more.

Rowling's last Potter book was terrible.
Whenever I read an entire page that was dedicated to them being in the forest eating mushrooms and deliberating moving camp, I ripped it out and fed it to the fire.

With each page, I could feel the naivety of childhood crumble and burn. Rowling, you have seriously let me down.

It's a Steampunk/Fantasy hybrid but i'd really recommend Perdido Street Station. One of the better and more original works in decades.

>>514583
fuckin' a

>>512943
Ian M. Banks and Dan Abnett.
yes, I'm a fa/tg/uy.

ITT Litfags proving that they don't have to read books to comment on them.

>>514598
>Dan Abnett

Sure, ok.

>>513341
This, very much this.

Ursula LeGuin,
Michael Moorcock,
M. John Harrison,
Gene Wolfe.

Take your pick, any one of those authors easily blow Tolkien out of the water.

>>514572
The bit at the end, where they all grow up, get married and live happily ever after? I fucking laughed my head off and threw the book in the trash.

Holy shit. I know she doesn't want anyone making up their own stories about what happened to Harry after, but jesus christ. Talk about a bad ending.

Fritz Leiber's Fafhrd and the Grey Mouser.
Robert E. Howard's Conan.
Mervyn Peake's Gormenghast.
Edgar Rice Burroughs Barsoom Series (* of Mars)
Gene Wolfe's Book of the New Sun, The Fifth Head of Cerberus and the Wizard Knight.
Steven Erikson's Malazan: Book of the Fallen.
Patrick Rothfuss: In the Name of the Wind.
Poul Anderson's Three Hearts and Three Lions, the Broken Sword, Hrolf Kraki's Saga.
Jack Vance's Lyonesse, Dying Earth, Planet of Adventure, Demon Princes.
Lord Dunsany's Gods of Pegana, Sword of Welleran, The King of Elfland's Daughter.
Clark Ashton Smith's Hyperborea, Zothique, Averoigne.
George MacDonald's Phantastes.
Ernest Bramah's Kai Lung series.
Sir Thomas Mallory's Le Morte D'Arthur.
Richard Adams Shardik.
James Cabell Branch's Jurgen.
William Hope Hodgson's the Night Land.
Hope Mirrlees Lud-in-the-Mist.
William Morris the Glittering Plain.

Anyway when it comes to Fantasy you're far better off asking /tg/. You might get some shitty warhammer stuff thrown in but their recommendations tend to be ten times better than /lit/'s stuff.

>>514583

A shame China seems to have spent his creative spunk. Everything since The Scar has been utter shit.

>>514292

That's because he developed his world for his language, Quenya, and not the other way around.

He was a polyglot, don'tcha know.

>>514614
>HP Ending
It read like bad fanfiction.

Basically, If you want to write a fantasy book you have edge far away from lord of the rings. Yes, You can have war and the normal human reactions, but just forgot about everything lord of the ring totally and just go with your ideas and feelings.

Christopher Paolini

>>514476

fucking epic

>>514638
>fucking epic struggle to continue reading this shit
fix'd

Also:
>implying that Wheel of Time is good on its own legs without huge amounts of borrowing from earlier epic fantasies.

Jonathan Strange & Mr. Norrell is very good.

>>514616
Several of those are even BEFORE Tolkien, but good list.

>>514616
here and I just have to say this to you guys:
>>514476
>>514638
>>514647
tugs braid
smoothes skirt
glances at well turned calves
complans about men gossiping or spending money like it was water
Folds arms underneath her breasts
Says "Mat Cauthon" in a disparaging tone
tells herself she really is an Aes Sedai
Sniffs
thumps him so he never forgets
boxes his ears
skins his hide
forces foul smelling/tasting tea down his/her throat
stubborn as a mule
calls him a wool-headed lummox.
thinks, "If only I Perrin or Rand were here, they always seem to know how to deal with women."
Blood and bloody ashes!
Mother's milk in a cup!
Sheep swallop and bloody buttered onions!
Flaming sheeps guts!

There i've just described the entire series for you.
Now no one else ever has to read it again.

also a more accurate summary if you're seriously thinking about reading that shit: http://www.ataricommunity.com/forums/showthread.php?t=386600

>>514651
>There i've just described the entire series for you.
That's a nice dream.

>Now no one else ever has to read it again.

>Ctrl + F
>No Terry Pratchett

>>514617
The City & the City is much better than Perdido Street Station, I know this much.

>>514684

I know your taste isn't worth a damn. I know that much.

>>514684

I had real trouble stomaching the idea of each cities inhabitants unconciously ignoring the other. People just don't work like that. I don't really care if China is attempting his ohsosubtle socialist commentary, it's lame. And the book is pretty damn boring in places.

>>514705
>People just don't work like that.
>Just doesn't get the point in the flexibility of this kind of work.

>>514689
>>514705

whats the matter 2 deep 4 u ?

>>513091
yeah too bad the fucker died without finishing the series.

>>514289
cien años de soledad biaatch

>>514705
>People just don't work like that.
IT'S A FREAKING FANTASY BOOK, I DON'T SEE YOU WHINING BECAUSE THE WORLD DOESN'T ACTUALLY WORK WITH THAUMATURGY AND CRISIS ENERGY

and besides, the storyline of PSS was awful, really, really awful. The setting was interesting, but the characters were insufferable and the writing; unbearable. The other one isn't perfect, but it's a massive, massive improvement.

>>514718
Bah, he had a detailed plot outline and notes. I haven't read anything from Sanderson yet, but I'm sure they chose him for a reason. I was ALMOST thinking, although this would never actually happen, that he'd die before finishing and then they'd open it up and allow several worthy authors to write their own version of the last book.

>>514724
To each their own, but if Perdido is awful writing, I imagine you can't palate 99% of genre fiction period... it's nothing amazing, but it's better written than nearly everything in genre (and plenty of novels out of) in MY opinion.

>>514724
>IT'S A FREAKING FANTASY BOOK

Not really. Considering it's set in modern day eastern europe with virtually no "fantastical" attributes.

He acts as if it's that easy to raise people to be like that.

The Shannara series by Terry Brooks. It has the same language style as LOTR, due to it being an older Fantasy and becuase it came out sometime before Fantasy became as mainstream as it is today.

>>514724
>IT'S A FREAKING FANTASY BOOK

>Normal people
>No magic
>No high tech gadgets
>No monsters

What?

>>514732
>It has the same language style as LOTR, due to it being a complete ripoff.
Fixed that for you.

>>514726
I swear to allah if he does a shitty job I'll rip his liver out, process it for ink, and rewrite the thing myself.

(swearing to god still makes me feel guilty and fearful, christfag upbringing)

>>514732
HAHAHAHAHAHAH, way to bring up a series whose first book is a frank rip-off of Tolkien and who continues to dig itself into new lows with repeating the same story over and over again with the same characters. Tolkien may have not been amazing, but at least he built something approaching a complete world.

>>514736
>Doesn't understand the concept of fantastical ideation.

>>514732
I like this too.
>>514738
>complete ripoff.
>HURRRRRRRRR

why are you /lit/fags always bitching about ripoffs. I have a little secret for you, tolkien ripped his story, too. there isn't an original thing in this world. I don't know what the fuck you're looking for when you complain about things being "ripoffs".

>>514710
>The settings in my books are all analogous to London and the shitty "police state" British government. Look at me being deep.

>>514744

Using retarded terminology to explain a central plot conceit isn't really very masterful. It's shitty writing. If he wanted to base a book on the division of society in east and west berlin, he should have just done so. Rather than acting as if he's still writing fantasy.

>Terry Brooks
If you're into complete copies of LOTR.

>>514747
No shit kid, that's why most of /lit/ is unenthused about Tolkien.

>>514736
of course something like this wouldn't actually be possible, but the concept's so damn interesting, you have to agree. I personally treated it as a fantasy book from the get go and thus was actually pleasantly surprised that it wasn't all that far-fetched in the end.

The Shannara series isn't a rip off; it just uses over used plot elements in awkward ways that most writers wouldn't touch upon. Like the races being evolved humans and stuff. The writing style is close to the same becuase it was written quite a while ago, when books didn't fall into 'Harry Potter Retarded'.

Best fantasy (series) in order, from best to worst:

LOTR (including silmarillion and hobbit - don't bother with the other shit)

Song of Ice and Fire

Wheel of Time

Sword of Truth

This is from personal experience (e.g., the ones I've read). I'm not all that into fantasy, but i've tried out these four and I enjoyed all of them.

>>514755
HAHAHAH, good one.
The beauty of fantasy and science fiction (and genre fiction in general) is that it can expose things about reality and human existence by abandoning reliance on direct, realistic properties. It's probably the only reason that, thematically, books which incorporate genre aspects can be successful as literature. Ignoring those kinds of thematic elements, genre fiction truly is toothless.

>>514759
my question stands, what are you looking for? why do you even read? fact is, a whole lot of people like tolkien's work. I think he did a pretty good job making a believable story in a believable world. I think terry brooks did a good job too, and I don't care that he "ripped off" tolkien any more than I care that tolkien wasn't exactly original himself.

I just don't get this whole "originality" thing. before writing, stories were passed down orally. they were changed, they were elaborated on, there was much "ripping off" going on, and nobody gave a shit because stories aren't an originality contest. same shit happens in writing, and you faggots bitch about it being "unorignal omg!!!11one", what I want to now is (1) what IS original in your view and (2) why do you care

>>514762
You've got the order right but there's a shitton of stuff above them. Also Shannara gets to be below Wheel of Time and above Sword of Truth, since it's not as outright bad as SoT but more like the epitomy of mediocre.

>>514760

To me he squandered the opportunity to make it interesting by setting it in our own world and refrencing other nations. I probably would have ended up enjoying it if he actually did the courtesy to make it more fantasy and explained it in such a fashion.

I mean do you even remember that he explained kids were raised from a young age to ignore the other city and its inhabitants? If we were talking another realm, even Bas-Lag, i'd be able to stomach it. Since that isn't people I can relate to as much as genuine on the continent Europeans. I think the choice of setting was a disaster.

>>514766

Well name some of the ones you consider above LOTR. I'll check them out.

>>514762
sword of truth is terrible, terrible writing.

>>514764

Your entire post just seems to be trying to justify lazy writing.

>>514769
This whole list is pretty good.
>>514616

>>514765
There is a difference between 'ripping something off' and creating a tribute to something you love, and it often treads a pretty fine line.

Because fantasy books, Tolkien included, aren't actually good.

MIND = BLOWN

H-hello...

>>514765
You made a couple of good points and a couple of shitty ones. As far as shitty-ness, goes: It wasn't some broad trace of influence that marks Sword of Shannara as shitty, it's that it quite obviously takes the entire structure of LotR as basis and changes a few elements. Unless it's a great ironic work, that's just plain shit. And, again, he keeps repeating the same story with new versions of the same exact damned characters. You could reduce several of his novels down to a plot with characters described only by their last name, and then I'd bet even hardcore fans would have a hard time sorting them out.

On the plus side, I'm not obsessed with originality. No one who has studied story telling WOULD be so obsessed with originality. It's all one story with a couple dozen key variations. That doesn't make unoriginality any less a problem.

>>514764

You do realise the best science fiction creates WORLDS and SETTINGS to go with their conceits?

>>514783
>It's all one story with a couple dozen key variations.
Inb4theotherfaggotbringsupCampbell'sMonomythAndActAsIfItWasn'tFlawed.

>>514776
saying there's a difference doesn't explain the difference, so you dodged that question pretty well. completely ignored the other.

you don't like terry brooks, fine. you think his writing is shit, that's a completely different discussion. but you disdain his *unoriginality*? that confuses me. the settings are pretty similar, that's about it. I don't see how it's a direct ripoff, it seems innovative to me, and unless you can explain otherwise, it seems like you're being ridiculous for criticising something as "unoriginal" without indicating what you think real originality is, and without saying why anyone should care about how a book rates on your personal, arbitrary metric of originality.

>>514785
Nope.

Worlds ARE their conceit.

>>514280
>>514289
>>514294

Magical realism is what you have to call fantasy if you want a Nobel Prize for Literature.

>>513341

Wizard Knight is cool, but the Book of The New Sun aces it majorly

Gene Wolfe said, "Magic realism is fantasy written by people who speak Spanish," and Terry Pratchett said magic realism "is like a polite way of saying you write fantasy".

>>514789
Truth.

>>514790
Agreed but New Sun can be interpreted as science fiction, whereas WizardKnight is clearly fantasy.

I didn't see you post:
>>514783
before I posted:
>>514787
probably should have waited a bit. disregard that.

>it quite obviously takes the entire structure of LotR as basis and changes a few elements.
I don't see that. I read the books about 8 years ago, and LotR longer than that, so maybe I just missed it.

>he keeps repeating the same story with new versions of the same exact damned characters.
that claim has some legitimacy. he should have just written one book probably. anyway the first one you read won't be boring, it's just the rest that might.

>On the plus side, I'm not obsessed with originality
good to hear then.

>>514792

fair point, sir.

I submit soldier of the mist and soldier of arete then, as superior. Can hist fantasy count?

>>514788

Why don't you tackle my point like a man? Rather than ducking under it.

>>514793
Seriously? You didn't even notice that the whole Southland/Tyrsis segment was lifted from Tolkien's Rohan/Helmsdeep?

>>514791
eh it's not as simple as that, but it's not a bad generalization either.

>>514794
I've only read the first of the Soldier series, and, for depth, I'm inclined to say it's a great series. However, for this comparison... Tolkien v Myth v modern fantasy, I'll still go with WizardKnight. Latro is the bomb, but his story didn't suck me in as much as other Wolfe epics.

>>514768
>If we were talking another realm, even Bas-Lag, i'd be able to stomach it.
I found it much easier to stomach than all the pathetic pseudo-scientific attempts at explaining crisis energy in PSS. Worst part of the book by a landslide, and I didn't even like the book in the end. The guy doesn't understand how science and physics works, at all, and I found his posturing just plain disgusting.

On the other hand, is it really all that far-fetched to believe that human beings could be pavlov-taught to ignore everything that exhibits a certain style? I mean, Borlù makes it clear during the earlier parts of the book that he notices the other city, he's just so used to ignore it by now that he can do as if it wasn't really there.

>>514797
I read LotR when I was about 8, and terry brooks when I was (if I remember) maybe 13 or 14. the first one I read was The Wishsong of Shannara, enjoyed it, read the others about a year later (took me a while to actually find out he'd written more), didn't like them as much, and didn't notice any significant ripoff of tolkien's work.

anyway I think I overreacted. it's just that so often people bitch about something not being "original", which is a criticism that doesn't really stand well on its own. you really have to say *how* it's a ripoff, or not "original", because it's too easy to just use it as an insult without any analysis behind it.

so maybe terry brooks ripped off tolkien really badly. I don't remember it that way but I guess I'm not in a good position to argue it. probably shouldn't have jumped into this one >.>

>>514808
>so maybe terry brooks ripped off tolkien really badly.
His first book at any rate. Dunno about the rest.

does anyone really think robert jordan's last book will be finished properly? has me worried O_o

>>514800
>The guy doesn't understand how science and physics works,

And because of that....he invents Bas-Lag. You're honestly comparing his ideas of science, which are set in a world where you have magic and all the usual fantasy traits to that of real work physics? Sorry if I find that a little retarded.

>is it really all that far-fetched to believe that human beings could be pavlov-taught to ignore everything that exhibits a certain style?

This is why you strike me as an odd person. You berate him for having a bad knowledge of physics (in a fantasy world) but have no idea yourself how impractical the notion of mass indoctrination for GENERATIONS on such a large scale, surrounded by the rest of "normal " Europe is. And you're calling Crysis physics in Perdido Street Station disgusting? Get a grip.

Dear OP, see:

>George R.R. Martin
>Clive Barker
>China Mieville
>Phillip Pullman

POINT DISPROVED

>>514732
Sword of Shannarah came out at around the same time fantasy was at one of its peak heights of popularity

SERIOUSLY?

China Mieville is cool and all but we're talking about fantasy here.

WHY HAS NOBODY MENTIONED CLIVE BARKER? Imajica is a fucking giant epic fantasy novel

>>512943
>Implying Tolkien is any good.

>>514935
Imajica is, indeed, awesome.

As is Everville.

ITT:

-My opinion is God Tier!

-No way, my opinion is so much more God Tier than yours!

-Pfft, MY opinion >>> your opinion!

-Bah! That isn't even entry level, way below Shit Tier!

-Hey Guys, check my opinion out, ain't it so much more awesome than your opinions?

-AFGARHAAHJARAH!!!

TL;DR: OPINIONS OPINIONS OPINIONS

Also, trolls.

>>514838
>And because of that....he invents Bas-Lag. You're honestly comparing his ideas of science, which are set in a world where you have magic and all the usual fantasy traits to that of real work physics? Sorry if I find that a little retarded.
Yes. I have no problem with magic, but I certainly don't like it when you're trying to justify it with bad logic that makes no sense no matter the setting you're in. This is pretty much what he's doing with "science" in PSS, he starts on this entirely useless thing about the triangle and the cross in the middle, and then through a string of extremely flimsy "arguments" he jumps to Crysis energy and you're supposed to somehow read all of this with a straight face.

As to why this is unacceptable while the "unseeing" part of tC&tC is, well there's two reasons. First of all, while the justification he gives is extremely unlikely it's not an actual impossibility. People ignore other people all the time, he's just taking it one (big, admittedly) step forward. Take the Amish or the Hasidic jews, this is pretty much an extreme version of what they're doing, right? Secondly, it has to do with how it is used with respect to the story. In tc&tC, the situation is the means to an end, a ploy used to tell you a nice story. In the case of Crysis energy, the explanation is the end in itself, you're supposed to find this bullshit explanation interesting in itself, because it really doesn't move the story forward one bit. Hell, he could have avoided trying to explain it altogether, and the story would have benefited from it, because the book was already way too long as it is.

In the first case, the unlikeliness of it all is actually what makes the story and the setting interesting in the end. In the second case, it's just annoying.

I don't think anyone has written a book since Tolkien. In fact I don't think Tolkien even wrote a book. I doubt that even words have ever been written.

>>515014

/thread

Another God-tier writer is Robin Hobb.

Not god-tier, but fun enough, particularly since she actually manages to write fantasy that MOVES THE PLOT instead of going nowhere as the characters are trapped on boring journeys from Point A to Point B, is Trudi Canavan. Aparently her other series is a bit boring, but the Black Magician trilogy is damn awesome.

I was a bit leery of it because the premise, when told shortly, sounds very bad (young girl from the poor part of the city is discovered to have special magic powers she uses instinctively without the years of training they ought to require! She joins the mage's guild!) but in reality it's a damn well told story.

> implying that Tolkien was the last to write a good book
> implying that Tolkien wrote a good book
> implying Tolkien didn't bore me to death

>>515026
>implying you don't have ADHD

Frankly, the beginning of LotR is boring as hell.

HEY, WELCOME TO BAG END, IT SURE IS COSY HERE
AND IDYLLIC
AND QUAINT AND LOVAB

>>515042
-LY COUNTRY BUMPKINISH HO HO HO
DON'T YOU WANT TO LIVE ON THE FARM WHERE IT'S SO NICE
ALL YOU DO ALL DAY IS DRINK AND SMOKE
TRULY THE FARMERS ARE THE BEST PEOPLE ON THE PLANET AND ENJOY LIFE THE FULLEST
AND NOW BY READING THIS BOOK YOU CAN, TOO
AND IMAGINE YOU LIVE IN A REAL BRITISH COTTAGE
SO VERY COZY AND COMFORTABLE
COMFORT HOBBIT COMFORT HOBBIT

>>515046
>COMFORT HOBBIT COMFORT HOBBIT
I laughed

>>515046

I thought you were retarded until

>COMFORT HOBBIT COMFORT HOBBIT

at which point which you immediately became a genius.