/lit/ - Literature

>>5137104
No, Atheism is the logical end of Christianity (and Judaism). A religion which so much espouses empiricism, a world as "just so", committed itself to suicide without knowing it.

>>5137104

Christ taught heaven could be attained through giving ones self wholly to god.

Buddha taught nirvana is attained through perfection of self regardless of god.

>Is Buddhism the logical conclusion to Christianity?

BUDDHISM, AND CHRISTIANITY ARE TWO DIFFERENT RELIGIONS; NEITHER IS A CONCLUSION, OR A CAUSE OF THE OTHER.

>>5137104
>Is Buddhism the logical conclusion to Christianity?
No more so than Christianity being the logical conclusion to Buddhism.

>his views seem to be influenced by his proletarian background...his teachings (if taken literally) are essentially some sort of proto-communism class warfare ideology.
You're either projecting or trolling.

>even though he had everything Jesus might have desired
So you've never actually read The Bible.

The only LOGICAL conclusion is gnostic atheism. Science disproves all fairy tales. Grow up and read some Dawkins.

>>5137205
Imagine Jesus to be a younger Gautama. The ultimate goal of christianity is just the beginning of the buddhism. Or a certain state rather.

>>5137211

the only LOGICAL conclusion is Allah. The Qur'an disproves all Infidels. Grow up and read some of the hadith.

>>5137207
What was jesus fighting for?

>>5137104
>reach eternal happiness in the afterlife where all our desires would be fulfilled by god.

no because buddhism teaches that to achieve enlightenment you have to not have any desires in the first place you fucking tool

>>5137104
Yes, OP. A religion whose ultimate goal is to end eternal life through reincarnation by realizing that existence is an illusion and desires cause suffering is the logical conclusion to a religion whose ultimate goal is eternal life where all your desires are fulfilled.

Top fucking notch discourse, OP.

>>5137227

but you desire until you achieve the death of desire.

So set your desires to guide you along the correct Path and you should eliminate desire at some point.

Elimination of self through realization of self. Elimination of desire through realization of desire.

>>5137219

THE RELIGIONS ARE TWO DIFFERENT & SEPARATE ORGANISMS, THE PHILOSOPHIES ARE VIRTUALLY IDENTICAL.

BE SPECIFIC NEXT TIME; YOU OUGHT TO HAVE POSTED "Is Buddhist philosophy the logical conclusion to Christian philosophy?", NOT "Is Buddhism the logical conclusion to Christianity?"; THE ANSWER WOULD STILL HAVE BEEN "NO", AND THE QUESTION WOULD STILL HAVE BEEN IDIOTIC, BUT AT LEAST IT WOULD HAVE BEEN ACCURATE WITHIN ITSELF.

>>5137207
>>his views seem to be influenced by his proletarian background...his teachings (if taken literally) are essentially some sort of proto-communism class warfare ideology.
>You're either projecting or trolling.

Anabaptism might beg to differ.

>>5137235
If all your desires would be fulfilled you would just become bored.

>>5137238
>caps
check
>trip
check
>projecting
check

>>5137241
Really, the Anabaptists you hang out with preach class warfare? Well they sure sound like representative members of the faith now don't they.

>>5137251

>responding to bait
check
>condescending
check
>not addressing the point
check

>>5137254
>Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of God."
Matthew 19:24

>>5137251
I don't think you know what projecting means.

>>5137278
Well, you're wrong.

>>5137284
no u

>>5137291
That's projecting right there.

>>5137244

>bored
Enlightenment is not a thing I'd expect you to understand.

>>5137104
If I was god I think the logical religion to choose would be buddhism. If god is buddhist why would I want to be christian?

>>5137298
If you think you understand it you really don't.

>>5137104
>Is Buddhism the logical conclusion to Christianity?
>Gnostics
>Sure, why not

I'd agree that philosophically, Buddhism and Christianity are very similar, if not identical.

>>5137272
>They are going to have a hard time getting into heaven, so we should overthrow the system and bring all the rich people down a peg!
The Bible calls for voluntary redistribution of wealth, not class warfare you dunce. Read Luke.

>>5137339
I guess Jesus had a similar experience but was only able to interpret it in context of judaism and his simple upbringing where as buddha was able to interpret it in context of hinduism and his time as an ascetic resulting from a noble upbringing.

>>5137367
This thought would lead us to Baha'i or the idea of God giving worldwide revelation.

>>5137104
They are exactly the same, at least they were designed to be the same. Christ is just like Siddharta.

Believe it or not the way one usually sees Buddhism is how Christianity was originally designed to be seen

The "kingdom of heaven" is the same as "enlightenment." "Eternal happiness" is freeing yourself from cyclical nature that leads to suffering (as buddhist say it). "Sin" leads to Hell or the Purgatory just as "Karma" leads to Dukkha.

Both of these views aren't influenced by anything but serious introspection.

>his proletarian background, him being the son of a carpenter, where his teachings (if taken literally) are essentially some sort of proto-communism class warfare ideology

Irrelevant

>Siddhartha Gautama on the other hand was the son of a king and even though he had everything Jesus might have desired

He didn't

>>5137388
>"kingdom of heaven" is the same as "enlightenment."

I don't think you can defend gnosis when comparing it to Christianity

Logical concluse of Christ is teach of adhere to radical indivdual, maybe ubaman as examp

>>5137395

Sorry I don't think I get you
If you can explain I'd appreciate

buddha already described heaven realms with gods and pleasure. He said they eventually change and are unsatisfactory. Nirvana is something very different than christian heaven.

Also buddhist ontology is very different than christian. Faith isn't a big virtue either in Buddhism...it helps a bit if tempered by wisdom but its not this foundational virtue like in christianity

>>5137465
I wonder if the realms with their inhabitants are just analogies for different states of ordinary reality and how it's perceived. Like if he literally meant different dimensions or just life.

>>5137465

My only advice is for you to focus less on words and understand the effects of both

You'll see they're not all that different

>>5137517
Not the guy but I think they're very different just in the sense of aggressiveness. If your understanding of christianity really was how it should be understood I suppose most christians don't understand it at all.

>>5137511
He wasn't being metaphorical. They are dimensions you experience in past and future lives.

>>5137517
They have some similarities but some big fundamental differences. A christian can't save himself he needs God. A Buddhist can only save himself and his salvation is beyond heaven or hell realms.

>>5137538
Are you sure a Buddhist can only self himself or the point is rather that there isn't really a self that needs to be saved?

>>5137536
>If your understanding of christianity really was how it should be understood I suppose most christians don't understand it at all.

Yes. But I'll also tell you that, in this way, many buddhists also "do not understand" buddhism

It's just less obvious because Christianity is now much more studied and scrutinized until you actually look at it while ignoring the spiritual factor to it. Buddhism will get there eventually. Why? Because it already has a name

>A christian can't save himself he needs God

"God" is the ultimate state of man. Christ (God) was designed not to be a man you could look at and worship, but rather someone you could eventually be. Christ was supposed to be an ideal just as a Buddha was. But its popularization in the West ultimately changed that image

>>5137589

I like your point on the Christian concept of attaining God.

>>5137688

Good as long as you don't think I mean the ultimate state of Man is Jesus.
Jesus is just as much of a "ubermensch" as Lucifer is.

Both khristos in their own way.

>>5137241
>Thinking proletarians existed in the time of Jesus
>Not understanding the relationship between historical stages of development

The utopian socialists or at the earliest groups like the Levelers are the closest you could come to proto communists.

Even so Jesus never called for the abolition of class and private ownership of the means of production he didnt even oppose slavery or call for the abolishing of the state, telling people to Render unto Caesar rather than rend Caesar. Earthly justice is not a concern to Christians as the true justice is to come in the afterlife.

>>5137198
Atheism and Buddhism aren't mutually exclusive though. Buddhism requires no belief in a god or gods.

Not necessarily dis/agreeing with you one way or the other though, but Buddhism can certainly be a complement to the conclusion you propose.

>>5138028
Wouldn't having belief in the 6 realms of existence and rebirth + past lives make Buddhism and atheism exclusive?

>>5137559

Ya you save yourself through your own effort.

Non-self doesn't mean you don't exist it means you are a transient process that arises and ceases without a permanent center or substance underneath it.

>>5138036
Not at all, since belief in those things doesn't necessarily presuppose the existence of a deity. You could complement theism/deism with Buddhism as well though if you wanted, but Buddhism is compatible with all of those as well because, again, it doesn't *require* the belief in a deity.

Don't confuse atheism with skepticism though. Or agnosticism. They're not the same thing.

>>5138060
So an atheist could believe in angels, ghosts, Herakles, spirits and souls by this measure or anything supernatural as long as it inst a god?

>>5138113


An atheist can also believe in super dimensional aliens and wizards

>>5138113
Not necessarily, no. Buddhism doesn't require you to believe in angels, ghosts, Herakles, spirits or souls either though. Atheistic Buddhism is a thing you know.

Buddhism at its core is concerned with questions regarding human suffering though. It doesn't exclude doctrines or dogma of other religious beliefs (or lack thereof).

>>5138159
Without samsara though wouldn't the answer just be to commit suicide?

>>5138165
It depends on your understanding and interpretation of samsara. Though I doubt Buddhists would advocate for simply committing suicide.

>>5138165
That's why rebirth is so fundamental to Buddhism. The "annihilationist" point of view is seen as wrong and unskillful.

>>5138193
But wouldn't that permanently end suffering?

>>5138370
>But wouldn't that permanently end suffering?

Two problems with that.
1. buddha rejected the extreme view that "death is the end" or "permanent"

2. buddhism is trying to gain freedom from suffering in this life, right now, not in another dimension where you cease to exist.

the point is to find something that brings about lasting happiness, true happiness. It's not simply an aversion to suffering.
If death is the end then it would end suffering, but it wouldn't bring about lasting happiness/peace that the buddhist is after.

>>5137104
Jesus was not of the proletarian class, he was a royal rabbi from the House of David.

>>5138631
1. But wasnt that rejection based on the assumption of samsara?

2. But that does end suffering in this life, where is this other dimension?

>If death is the end then it would end suffering, but it wouldn't bring about lasting happiness/peace that the buddhist is after.

Then inst enlightenment counter-intuitive as it breaks the cycle of samsara and ends existence completely akin to suicide in a non samsara world?

>>5137104
>logical conclusion
I don't think this means what you think it means

>>5137104
>Is Buddhism the logical conclusion to Christianity?

No. Switching to a foreign religion is the logical conclusion to being bored with your inherited religion.

>>5138060
That is Theravada Buddhism.
Mahayana Buddhism is filled with different kinds of deities.

>>5137104
...No, It seems almost as if you only understand a bastardized version of Buddhist philosophy with a bastardized version of Christian philosophy,then decided to compare them.

>>5138740
>1. But wasnt that rejection based on the assumption of samsara?

Buddha based it on his memories & insight as he progressed through his meditation practice and attained enlightenment. Some people take it up as just an assumption and don't think much of it.

>2. But that does end suffering in this life, where is this other dimension?

If death is the end, then you aren't there to experience it "in this life". So it's a dimension not really open to you.


>Then inst enlightenment counter-intuitive as it breaks the cycle of samsara and ends existence completely akin to suicide in a non samsara world?

Nirvana ends the cycle of rebirth, it doesn't annihilate you. It unbinds you, leaving you free forever.

Buddha was asked about this and he said no limit or category can apply to it, neither existence nor non-existence, birth or rebirth, life or death.


here is a good article on it:

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/thanissaro/nirvanaverb.html

>>5138877

>It unbinds you, leaving you free forever.

So what happens when you die, if you are not reborn then what? What does free/ being unbound actually mean here.

>>5138985
it means no more fucking suffering

>>5138985
>>5138985
>So what happens when you die

get enlightened and see...

>>5138998
Yeah but if that ends the cycle of rebirth isnt that just annihilation ?

>>5139053
>Yeah but if that ends the cycle of rebirth isnt that just annihilation ?

Rebirth is replaced by Nirvana.

What is Nirvana? Being fully awake. Unbound.
You can't be awake and dead/annihilated.

This wakefulness is permanent but subtle, hard to describe... true happiness, ease, freedom from suffering.

>>5139074
How can we know that this state will continue/be permanent after death/non material existence?

>>5138165
You gotta live by the middle way motherfucker. Annhilationism and eternalism are both unsustainable.

>>5139110

The point of buddhism is to take up the idea of nirvana as a possibility, a working hypothesis that you mean to test.

As you practice the path you will gain some insights and "tastes" of it, which will give you further confidence in the merit of Nirvana and in what Buddha taught in general.

If you practice diligently and this doesn't happen, then try something else.

The point is only an enlightened being knows the answers to your questions, we can only give approximations using broken language...

>>5139155
Is there a reason why other faiths whether it be christian, taoist or Islam produce similar results which give people confidence in what their system teaches?

Given the time required to invest in these how does one sort through all the different schools of buddhist thought?

>>5139183
>Is there a reason why other faiths whether it be christian, taoist or Islam produce similar results which give people confidence in what their system teaches?

Those systems begin with faith and end with faith, and most of the fundamental tenets are faith based and can never be experienced in this lifetime.
So the confidence a christian or muslim get is built out of habit and repetition, not insight and experience.

>Given the time required to invest in these how does one sort through all the different schools of buddhist thought?


Theravada is the oldest school we have to what the buddha taught. I think it has the oldest monastic order out of any religion and they keep to the old sutras pretty carefully.

I would say start with theravada and read the original sutras, what the buddha is heard to have taught.

From there you can investigate the newer schools and see what they are like and how buddhism adapted as it entered new cultures.

>>5139235
Which of the newer schools do you have experience with?

>>5139281

mahayana, japanese zen

>>5139285
In that case if it isnt too much to ask, would you be able to skim this thread and give me your opinion on the discourse?

>>/lit/thread/S4666124

It raises some very interesting questions about the relationship between therevada and the other schools, however I am unsure of how legitimate or truthful these claims are

>>5139320
>>>/lit/thread/S4666124

OP is correct but a bit quick to judge.

Although the mahayana sutras come far after the buddha and are basically just "fake buddha quotes" that doesn't mean they don't share the kernel of truth that buddha was trying to point to.

Different styles for different folks.

>>5139320
>>5139183

whatever school of buddhism or religion you decide to investigate, hell whatever you do in life, you should start meditating daily at least 20-30mins

the benefits are profound

regarding whether death applies to a buddha, and if nirvana is annihilation refer to

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.072.than.html

>>5139374
Isn't the point of meditation that it has no purpose?

>>5139703
No.
That's just a way zen talks about it to undercut attachment to meditation in ppl who are close to enlightenment. The average person need not worry about it.

The Buddha was specific in talking about the path to enlighteent and the things that promote it and the things that hinder it. Right concentration and meditation are keys and have a purpose.

No it's the other way around if anything. Buddhism led to Christianity

>Wise men follow a star
>sounds like how lamas are picked
>Jesus was gone during his teenage years, most likely being taught buddhism in the east
>Comes back and starts teaching love not hate, radically different to the time
>is "resurrected" on the cross. Resurrected can easily mean Resuscitated
>meets people when supposedly dead
>travels back to India where he's buried at Rosa Bal in Kashmir. They even have his stylised footprints with cuts in them

Makes a lot of sense, but even supposedly open minded atheists and agnostics would rather accept the bible's account (minus the miracles) of Jesus's life

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yiy5uY3Iw2s

>>5140623
If Jesus learned any Buddhism he would know not to make himself into a savior and preach the only path to salvation is faith in him....and that salvation is a heaven realm after death.

On the surface he taught some good virtues...but so did the stoics and cynics. If anything Jesus probably learned from a Greek cynic than an Indian Buddhist.

>>5141032
Lol

Anyone interested in the idea of the connections between religions should really be looking into Baha'i philosophies.
It's religion without the baggage.

>>5142320
Bahai is pretty strange in that it misrepresents every religion in order to conform them to its ideology of "progressive revelation".

They also borrow some weird Islamic habits like you can't draw their prophet. They advertise male-female equality and progressive morals...but are anti-gays like evangelicals and Women can't be top ranked in their UHJ (their pentagon or churchy thing). They have a policy of "shunning" dissidents and anyone who questions them seriously. It's pretty cult-like in the creepy way.

That said a lot of bahais are young adults who are very friendly and pleasantly naive about other religions so they just swallow up Bahaism easy....

I had 10friends who were bahai and ever so often they would bring me to their meetings and try to convert me. When I tried to show them that their understanding of Buddhism or Christianity is flawed they were all pretty surprised. Over time about 6 of them left that religion totally and the other half don't take it very seriously anymore. ;)
I like to imagine I had some influence in helping them leave
:)

>>5142320
Why would I need a religion? Why can't we be just humans?

>>5142455
Religion is a major part of humanity.

>>5142495
So is disease, lying, hatred and folk dancing, doesn't mean we need any of it.

>>5137371
>God giving.

No, no it wouldn't.

>>5142455
Because your soul will outlast your body, and you should have some concern for what it does when that happens.

>>5138772
And theravada is considered more orthodox...

People itt are being very vague and choosey about what they define as Buddhism.

The fact is that Buddhism has a history and intellectual culture of encouraging itself as a beginning framework of a discourse which is aimed at causing a transformation into a non-definable state.

It is very evident to anyone who has had successful, formal training in Buddhism (and some sharp people who haven't) that the claims OP, intended at least, to make are possible. Furthermore someone with "advanced understanding" (take of that statement what you will) of Buddhism would likely realize that the intent of either religion is irrelevant to the facts one can discover through awareness.

To hell with Jesus, kill the Buddha, there is no salvation because there is no self to be saved yadda yadda.

>>5138985
He is wrong. Still taking things in wrong context.

Death is an illusion now. Alan watts has some good words on this.

>>5139155
Lol still have ultimate goals I see.

It's a travesty to see people try to make claims in Buddhism before they have blown out the candle.

>>5141032
It would have been a Roman teaching him. Which would allow for some serious potential for cross pollination. Hinduism Buddhism Greeks fucking Norse mythology.

Yfw Jesus just cut in paste into his own culture.

>>5138143
>An atheist can also believe in super dimensional aliens and wizards
god is just an omnidimensional alien wizard then

>>5142709
Why?
What is there is no grand problem? What if everything is fine?

>>5142832
>And theravada is considered more orthodox...
Yeah, by the Theravada, via posturing.

>>5142895
The Christian diety is.

>>5142901
Irrelevant, see >>5142832

>>5142906
cool so i can be a spiritual christian and an atheist at the same time.

>>5137104
It is the other way around.

>>5142919
All depends on how you define things.
Good luck explaining this to plebs though.

Someone mentioned watts.

Figured this is relevant at this point.

>>5142970
Alan Watts: Jesus, His Religion: http://youtu.be/RxuSQ1zZCPw

I mean this

>>5142832
>kill the Buddha, there is no salvation because there is no self to be saved yadda yadda.

le western romanticized buddhism

kek.

>>5143092
Knowing there is multiple forms of Buddhism.

Kek

>>5140623
t is now an accepted fact that contact between India and civilizations as far away as 1200 miles to the west were established at least 2000 years before Jesus was born. In addition, well-established trading routes existed. As Holger Kersten says:

'The oldest Indian seals found in Mesopotamia date from the time of Ur's third dynasty (2047-1939 BC). A number of other objects including pearl necklaces, terracotta statues and other dice, probably also originating in the Indus valley, were found alongside the seals. Such finds certainly demonstrate unambiguously that regular trading contacts between the two cultures existed before the Isin-Larsa-Babylon period (around 2000 BC) at the time when the Harappa and Mohenjaro civilizations, which produced such seals, were flourishing (the first half of the third millennium)'.

[Holger Kersten, The Original Jesus: The Buddhist Sources of Christianity (Shaftesbury: Element Books Ltd., 1995), p. 248-249]

>>5143683
Your cutlery was made in China. How Taoist do you feel?

>>5137104
Buddha and Christ By Rudolf Steiner (GA 58)

>That is an interpolation of Buddhism into our western world. Such a thing happens because of our misapprehensions; because we do not understand clearly enough what the deepest impulses of Christianity are, and what its content and its form denote. What have we achieved through Christianity? If we regard the impulse alone, we have achieved just that which shows what intensity of cleavage can exist between Schopenhauer and one of the most significant personalities of our time. While Schopenhauer sees his ideal in some one who has overcome all enjoyment and pain that proceeds from the outer life, who merely exists waiting until the last threads that bind his physical body together are severed — we find the very opposite in Goethe's picture of the struggling Faust, who strides from desire to enjoyment, and from enjoyment to desire, who at length purges himself so that all his passions are transformed, and that which was to him the highest and holiest that can irradiate human life, became itself a passion. Such was Faust — who did not say ‘I wait until the last traces of my earth-existence are obliterated,’ but who proclaims the stupendous words: ‘The relics of my earthly sojourn are indestructible throughout the Æons of Time.’


http://wn.rsarchive.org/Lectures/GA/GA0058/19091202p01.html

http://www.skylarkbooks.co.uk/Shop/media/From-Buddha-to-Christ-Rudolf-Steiner.htm

>>5137272
Though the eye of the needle has been claimed to be a small gate in the city wall about the size of a camel therefore possible but, needing some effort to get through though doable.

>>5143893
He might have been an analogy though people could relate to and wasn't meant to be taken literally.

>>5143935
>>5143893
The words for "camel" and "rope" are identical in Aramaic and similar enough to mistake for one another in Greek. It makes way more sense for Jesus to have said "rope".

>>5137408
u wot m8?

>>5137207
This guy gets it

>Implying the logical conclusion to Christianity isn't Islam
الله أكبر.

Do you guys know who Salman the Persian is?

>>5143935
>>5143893
>>5144322

Rich Christians trying desperately to rationalize their hypocrisy ITT. The illustration of the camel and the eye of a needle comes IMMEDIATELY after Jesus tells a righteous rich man that in order to enter the kingdom of God, he must do one more righteous thing, and that is sell all his possessions and give the money to the poor. The rich man walks away sadly, so Jesus tells his disciples about the camel and the eye of the needle. Just to twist the knife in any fags who still believe bullshit like >>5143893 >>5144322, Jesus then says that for man, salvation is impossible, but not for God. So the illustration of the eye of the needle is obviously not intended to mean that getting into heaven while rich is possible if you try really hard.

>>5144626

>>5144322 reporting in. I think you misinterpreted what I was trying to say. I did not mean to convey that a rope could fit through the eye of a needle if one would only try harder. All I was trying to get across was that it makes way more sense for Jesus to have said "rope" than "camel". I mean, come on, neither one's going to fit no matter how hard one tries. "Rope" just fits better with the needle analogy. Otherwise he might as well have said watermelon or frying pan.

>>5137104

>*tips fedora*

>>5146031
>fedora
anyone else getting tired of this?

>>5146141
Even religious people are getting tired of it.

Anyone still using this term is a damn high functioning autist.

>>5137104
As a spiritual system I would argue Christianity doesn't work for the most part. Maybe as system of worldly power but not in terms of making people happy. That said I guess Buddhism is indeed a conclusion to christianity because spiritually it picks up where the latter drops the ball. The success of buddhism in the west speaks for itself for that matter.

>>5137211
the only LOGICAL conclusion is agnosticism and keep watching/studying the earth and everything in between.
fairy tales may be fairy tales but hypotheses are still hypotheses wether you accept it or not.

>>5143893
>>5144322
this is the right way to interpret that scripture

>>5148264
Zen for example has nothing to do with believing or not believing in god though. That's not the point.

>>5137291
no u