/lit/ - Literature

Toxoplasmosis

Aren't African-American writers a lot more pessimistic

>>5112075
Because they've had a pretty shitty last 100 years.

As will the Americans soon enough. Can't wait to see what comes of that.

Name one uplifting African American novel, RIGHT NOW:

It's just part of their culture.
I stayed in France for about a month and I'll tell you that are the most moody people I've ever met

And no, it wasn't because I was a dumb loud tourist, its just how they are.

Because of homosexuality

>>5112095
>it wasn't because I was a dumb loud tourist
Yes, yes it was.

>>5112103
No, no it wasn't.

I made friends with numerous people in Paris, Nice, Marseille and Toulouse--went to their parties, houses, family gatherings.
Most of the time they sit around smoking and complaining, it sounds like a stereotype but it's true.

Because their normality is too optimistic so, in order to reach everyone else's normality they have to be pessimistic.

just a matter of scale.

>>5112111
trips confirm

Everything about the French is sad and saggy and depressed and effeminate. It seeps into every single thing they do.

Just compare the English conception of a shared king with the French one. RICHARD the LION-HEART, vs. reee shhhar d... cooeeuuuuu........r...

Anglos are like RICHARD!!!!!!!!! LION!!!!! *HEART*! All hard sounds slamming into your fucking face. The French can't even finish the two nouns in the sentence, they just peter off tragically like they're suffering from melancholy, sounding like someone let air slowly out of a balloon. And the ghost of a preposition.

>>5112110
>No, no it wasn't.
>I made friends
keep telling yourself that

>>5112124
why are you even commenting this?
what are you trying to get out of it?

>>5112126
Nothing, actually. Maybe distraction. I don't feel like doing my architecture project.

>being a first world country
>having an elitist education system that looks down on mistakes more than it rewards success
>being a former imperial military power
>being a backstage nation to the US

that's enough bro

>>5112137
they still have good alcohol

>>5112123
You seems to be suffering from that disease called anglofaggotry. The most efficient cure is coming to terms with your own closeted sexuality.

>>5112110
>Most of the time they sit around smoking and complaining

If you don't take fun in complaining you're doing it wrong mate. A French has to complain proudly just like an American has to behave proudly like a retard.

It also sounds like you always hung with the same kind of people (stoner-smoker-half-chronically-depressed type).

>>5112110
Serious question: How were you able to make friends over there? What were the circumstances?

>>5112140
Of course, but that too correlates with pessimism. Satisfied drunkedness can sometimes (quite surprisingly) foster a state of vague pessimism towards life in general.

>>5112095
Did it ever occur to you that you might be a bit too stoic instead?

>>5112095
What do you mean by moody?

I know I hate Quebecois because of how animated they are. It's creepy as fuck. They act like the characters in French instruction textbooks.

>>5112149
Oh I enjoyed some of the complaining, but it got tiresome after a while, since most of it is so trivial and stupid:
>Hurr my cousin's cousin's nephew has no direction, he messes up in school
>Wine is the burden of us French *takes gulp*
>Why are there so many ugly people?
>I cannot be bothered with sex anymore
>I wish I was rich enough to never see anyone again
>I hate the language I speak
>Paris has become a tourist trap *5 minutes later* When are we taking that trip to Paris?
>Hollywood is pure Jewish evil, but when are we going to see *insert hollywood blockbuster*

>It also sounds like you always hung with the same kind of people (stoner-smoker-half-chronically-depressed type).
Not always, even the adults with families were like this.
Though to be fair most of them were borderline bohemian.

>>5112153
Just connections really, I met a couple of people on the plane there coming back from a holiday, made friends, when i was leaving for another city they were like 'hey we have some friends in " ", give this number a call
they are actually quite accommodating, but like i said most of them were pretty much bohemians
the french also seem to like australians...

>>5112159
no, im actually quite pessimistic myself but this was on another level
>>5112163
think james dean rebel without a cause except replace teenage angst with existentialism and pessimism

>>5112192
>the french also seem to like australians...
no chance for an american like me then ;_;

Optimism is for people who don't get laid enough and think getting laid will fix things.

Pessimism is for those who get laid enough and realise it doesn't solve anything but there's nothing else.

>>5112192
>Not always, even the adults with families were like this.

This is a further indication that your many friends lived in some sort of social echo chamber. It's more common than people imagine, and yes it can happen when you live outdoors.

Did you have anything to bond over except trips to Paris, parties, smoking and drinking ? I'm currently studying mathematics in France and I have pretty fun conversations, because I'm surrounded by half-nerds who shares some of my nerdy interests.

>the french also seem to like australians...

That sounds quite right. All the Austrialians I've met gave me the same vibe as the smoking-and-drinking twentysomething French (physically rather fit, capable of wit of reactivity, intellectually aimless because of lack of giving fucks or disillusionment with institutions). Rather chill people but monotonous after a while.

It maybe also that the youngsters in the West are mostly the same jaded crowd. Only in France older people can also have similar mentality.

>think james dean rebel without a cause except replace teenage angst with existentialism and pessimism

That describes some of my highschool friends surprinsingly well. I loved them, but in a way they were rather predictable (and so was I, but a different kind of predictable). Of course the stage actors among them has bouts of true passion. Theater does save lives.

Is this thread still about French people?

>>5112346
>Did you have anything to bond over except trips to Paris, parties, smoking and drinking ?
rugby in Nice
but even the team bonding seemed rather pessimistic
maybe im just too critical and used to outgoing australianness

>>5112123
You post gave me cancer.
Richard Coeur de Lion lived in his possession in France (mostly Bordeaux) for virtually all his life and hated England. He spoke French in his daily life. At the time the French ("Norman" as you call it to mask the French invasion of 1066) bloodline was still prominent so it may even be argued that he was more French than English.

>>5112075

false premise.

Why do you care about French pessimism?
Why do you think French people are pessimist?

I was part of the Erasmus exchange program the last two semesters. I've been told French people were the most welcoming and beaming people of Europe. I think it's a matter of chance.

Seriously, are you also going to share with us your knowledge about the spirits and trads of nations. I'm sorry, Voltaire did it before you, and I don't want to read that much bullshit in row again.

france is not pessimistic if you'd look outside of philosophy (which is rather not true either since sartre is not a philosopher and don't even start with the pomo stuff). it has a highly positivism influenced civil service and idea of government, with the most obsessive pursuit of technical complexity (and thus theoretical ambition) in economics.

it's enlightenment and its discontents, and you guys are only seeing the discontents

The French revolutions (1789 and 1848) and the 1905 law of separation of the (catholic) church from state turned the state into religion.
France has had a strong state since centuries (with authoritarians such as Louis XIV), but the revolutions just made that strong state "democratically supported", utterly alienating French citizens.
That strong state promoted strong families to get cannon fodder. That's why (along with religious support) eugenics didn't take in France, the French state needed soldiers before and after the 1 million men loss of WW1.
To this day, the French state still subsidizes births through taxes.

The French are told from birth that the State gives all and takes all.
You better be grateful for "free" school, "free" healthcare, public transit, welfare and so on and so forth.
20% of workers are employed directly by the state, but a lot of people depend on public money, and a lot of people do not get employed at all because of work regulations and high taxes.
This makes everyone feel powerless, unable to do anything on their own.
Established workers are more likely to keep their jobs, established companies are more likely to get support from the state, but good luck getting in those markets.

>>5112075
Loss of the monarchy.

>>5113899
cont

Moreover, the French state has a god complex. Ever since some French mass-murderers came up with human rights, France has been claiming some kind of superior morality over all worldly affairs.
Hence Jaures, the man who created the free, public and obligatory French school, a hero for so many leftists, found that it was France's highest duty to enlighten the barbaric populations of Africa.
And France did, France went to Africa, the Pacific, East Asia, to share knowledge and technology and to drag the natives out of the dark ages that either their state of constant warring or Arab occupation had placed them in.

What good did that do to France?
Not much, considering for example all the expenses that establishing itself in Algeria took, for a net negative return, with a bloody war that threw them out before oil was discovered. France is only left with a massive resentment from these countries, and immigrants eager to come in.

And of course France lets them in, with its God complex turned into "everyone can get saved" by spin doctors nurtured by the State's dependency-inducing rule.

>>5113911
cont

Here's what I heard on the state-radio the other day:
On the political scandals (finance secretary lying about a tax-evading account in Switzerland then Singapore...):
>local politican: uuuhh most politicians are honest, we local politicians don't have all these luxuries to abuse (yet local politicians in big cities/big administrative divisions get caught red-handed all the time)
>1 of the journalists: with all these scandals it's good because the State gets reinforced and there's less and less chance that another scandal can happen with all the checks that exist now, for example the recent transparency law blah blah

No one mentioned that politicians are just like any other citizen, that working for the State doesn't make you a superhero. Policemen are still people, giving them guns is dangerous too.
No one came up with the idea that maybe political scandals keep happening because politicians are given power, the power of the state, and like anyone else they have a risk to abuse that power.

Libertarians are virtually non-existent in France, and "neo-liberal" or "ultra-liberal" (ie anyone who criticizes new taxation, the state meddling with the economy, or new ways to make the citizens dependent on the state) are insults in the mouth of the left.

>>5113920
cont

Then they wonder why the youth leaves.
They leave because they're locked in France. There's nothing new to do, no industry to join or to start without getting crushed by regulations and permits and taxes.
You only get to beg the wealthy elders to drop some of their money your way so that you can spend it in taxes to pay for the enormous public debts they accumulated in welfare, healthcare, pensions.

>>5112095
Complaining yes.

But if you went to boring parties with stupid assholes it doesn't mean that's it's a general state of being

>>5112123
I fart in your general direction.

- Guillaume le Conquérant

>>5113920
Are you french ?
This is a good analysis

Why are the Russian so pesimistic?

>>5113899
>>5113911
>>5113920
>>5113925
These are really good points, thanks.

There's also the fact that the French tend to be wary and even resentful towards successful people; the rich CEO of a big company will not be admired so much as looked with suspicion. Some will say that the guy was lucky, that he doesn't deserve to get so much money; many fear that he will abuse his power, many will be bitter because they will never be able to earn as much money as him, no matter how hard they try. Politicians are very widely seem as corrupt and untrustworthy. Many regard the French football team players as ridiculously overpaid, overpampered arrogant boys; etc. Only the rich artists are respected.

For what it's worth, I'm French and I am very moody and pessimistic. I think school might have something to do with it too: our education system is rather elitist, with a very precise grading system that makes it very hard to get top marks, very theoretical too with only few "practical" lessons, little room for expression. A good grade in France isn't an A that just says "you did well!" but something like 14.5/20… some teachers even refuse to ever give 20/20; that might not seem significant, but the general idea is that there's always someone better than you, what you're doing is always flawed, never quite completely satisfying.

We also seem to cultivate skepticism and analysis over strong values, but maybe that's true in other countries too, I don't know.

>>5113479
>I've been told French people were the most welcoming and beaming people of Europe.
Really? I've mostly heard about French people being moody, pretentious and arrogant… not undeservedly so, although there exceptions.

>>5112124
That's rude.

>>5114324
Yeah.

>>5114352
Yes, most French are highly conservative in fact, despite all those claims of progress the left has been doing in the past years.
Here's what they are conservative of:
>the revolution(s)
>so-called human rights
>equality
>all culture from the 19 to 20th century and even longer than that for a city like Paris which is literally getting turned into a giant museum
>the political program of the National Council of the Resistance, put in practice by De Gaulle with an alliance of all political parties who contributed to resistance against the Germans, that is healthcare, pensions and other welfare-related so-called "social gains", some of which actually originating from the traditional, pro-family policies of Petain, and which have now accumulated considerable debts.
>also included in that the "social gains" from the socialist Front populaire whose leniency let the war happen, that is guaranteed paid holidays

>>5114352

(still me >>5114396)
I'd say that general resent against anyone successful has to do with that state religion.
People can't question the state, can't question the system, so they blame the individuals who have to be cheating to rise up above them.
And they're probably right about that, the system is rigged for some, like any system, but that system is so pervasive and supported that its unfairness is shocking, especially when the system itself claims to fights unfairness.
So they try to "fix" the system, adding this or that law, hiring this or that person to make it work again, like it should, because they've been told the system works, and they've been told it's the best in the world, or the best that could be "after we've tried everything else".
Really?

There's that culture in Africa of calling "witches" those who cheat the system and have surprising strokes of luck. It's not that far away from what we have in France.
People who legitimately work hard for their success get lumped along with those who took shortcuts.
Privilege isn't like in the US something mostly based around race, even if the American influence is felt, it's something rooted in the old aristocratic or industrial families who just profited from decades of being at the right place within the system.

So it's really a system which is very alienating for the common French man but from which the top layers of society benefit immensely, like before the Revolution really, except now the citizens' issues are all their own fault because democracy!

>>5112095
>the most moody people I've ever met
>French

come to Russia

As far as I'm concerned the French are the most execrable people in Europe today.

Apparently they think so too, judging by their record suicide numbers

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_in_France

http://www.thelocal.fr/20130910/why-france-has-such-a-high-suicide-rate

It's also true that socialism sucks all the enthusiasm out of life.

>>5114842

France is also responsible for Israel becoming a nuclear power.

Feminism started in France, and most of the godawful 'philosophers' and 'psychologists' of the past 100 years were French as well.

Since the death of Napoleon they have been slowly spiraling downhill. A strong history of poetry and a few great novelists is about all France has to her name today.

Awful country filled with awful people, overall.

>>5112110
>sit around smoking and complaining
you weren't in France, you were in Poland

>>5114850

Also France's major export (luxury goods) are totally at odds with the socialist ideology that recently came into power. This is the equivalent of environmentalists taking over the German government.

>>5114857

Studies have shown that the source of widespread depression in France has its origin somewhere in French upbringing and education. People who were raised in other countries and subsequently immigrated to France were no more depressed than before, but those who were raised in France and subsequently emigrated elsewhere continue to report high levels of depression.

>>5114873

http://www.france24.com/en/20140520-france-drug-addiction-1-3-psychotropic-medication/

Wrong article

>>5112075

Defense mechanism against their fellow French fucks.

They're all pessimistic and unambitions. I'm Swiss, I know French people who left France for my country because of that. They had enough of working with lazy morons who do nothing but whine all day and never believe in anything for laziness.

bump

Because they are wise.

t. auldest ally

>>5112075
I'm Frenchman and a NEET and yet I'm not depressed. Now I'm afraid I'm anormal and it will make me depressed

>implying

>>5117734
>implicating

pessimism is one of the best traits france has

>>5117734

>pessimistic
>Imperiya

it's like you want to get fucked in the ass, suka pizdec

>>5114857
I don't see any socialism in France, the socialist party is barely socialistic.

>>5117759
Didn't Hollande admit on TV that he was lib-dem few months ago ?

>>5112110
>I made friend
>because I was invited to a party

You know what a "diner de con" is ?

>>5117759
Lel what.

>higher education supported by tax
>healthcare supported by tax
>obligatory public pension system supported by tax
>benefits for mothers supported by tax
>benefits for handicapped, elders, youth
>subsidized housing
>20% of state-employed workers
>taxation over 50%
>censorships laws over all media, enforcement of an official history

>not socialism
What is socialism?

>>5112075
War

>>5112163
Don't worry, French dislike Quebecois too. They're annoying as fuck and seem really less intelligent, as crazy as it looks.

>>5117834
>French dislike Quebecois too.
That's because they are more anglo-american than them.

>>5113911
>Jaures, the man who created the free, public and obligatory French school, a hero for so many leftists, found that it was France's highest duty to enlighten the barbaric populations of Africa.

It's Jules Ferry, not Jean Jaurès. Jaurès was the leader of the socialist party. Ferry was the minister of public instruction and his legacy is hailed by the left and the right alike. Basically, the objective of his public school system was to deeply root the republican ideal in everyone's mind. This influenced the 5 generations or so that were in school between the end of the 19th century and the end of the 1950's. (on this subject, see passages from Les Lieux de Mémoire by Pierre Nora)

>>5117834
We don't hate the Québequois. Sure, they talk and act weird, but Québequois culture is fascinating, to me and a lot of people I know.

>>5117806
>What is socialism?
Workers being in control (in a good margin) of the means of production.

>>5117918
Dang that's true. Fuck.

>Basically, the objective of his public school system was to deeply root the republican ideal in everyone's mind.
Turn the Republic into a religion, indeed.
And he also supported colonization, ie a crusade to propagate his religion.

>>5117921
Lel, so that never happened on a country scale.
France is not socialist then, it's bolshevik, sovietic.

>in France
>want to ask someone something, be it for a route description or where X is in a store
>"Excuse me do you speak english?"
>"Non." and proceeds to make an effort to be show how little he/she wants to help
>try "Est-ce que vous parlez anglais?"
>"Uh, no but I try." ends up being very helpful even if he/she can't speak English for shit
What is with this shit?

>>5117933
>sample size: 3

>>5117944
>lived by French border for 4 years, close to Lille
Belgians are the same by the way

>>5112091
Leaves of grass

>>5117931
>Turn the Republic into a religion

Let's not forget the 3rd Republic was the regime that allowed the most free thinking. Being a Republican was never an obligation—only abiding by the law was. Thus, there never was any direct political propaganda in the classroom, rather, a form of civic education which purpose was to magnify universal suffrage and human rights.

Concerning colonization, it was more a way of promoting the so-called "superiority of the white race" because it was bringing "the Enlightenment of Civilization" to "savages". For that, Ferry was racist and naive—but you could find numerous other examples of such people in all of Europe at the time.

>>5117933
You're really more surprised people are more accomodating when you approach them in their native language?

>>5117961
>Thus, there never was any direct political propaganda in the classroom, rather, a form of civic education which purpose was to magnify universal suffrage and human rights.

I'm pretty sure the Republican school was a way to eliminate the regional specificities and specifically the regional languages by promoting the French language and forbidding the use of the regional one.
Also history was used as a way to promote nationalism, as in every other European country at the time.
And mandatory physical education started because the French government needed fit soldiers right out of school.

>>5117970
It was just more extreme than anywhere else in Western Europe from my experience(travelled around a bit). Mostly the older population, as in 40+ (this was in early 2000s). Not been met with so many "hmph, what do you want" attitudes elsewhere.
French exchange student at my current uni are some of the friendliest fuckers I've ever met on the other hand

>>5117978
seconding this
This use of school is getting more obvious these days.

>>5113899
>>5113911
>>5113920
>this is what the right actually believe

>>5114850
>Feminism started in France
That's one of the things they can be proud of.

Before you get all fired up and post gifs of people laughing, remember that "feminism" isn't just crazy women yelling rape every time they see a girl in a bikini in an ad or using the words "womyn" and "herstory". Promoting equal rights for all people is usually considered as a good thing nowadays. I mean, yeah, some people still support discrimination, segregation and slavery, but that's a little passé.

>>5117734
>>5117739
>>5112075
yeah, we got the implication: red, blue and white are really inauspicious colors to have in a flag.

>>5114352
>>5113920
>>5113925
>>5113911
Just look at these fags, reinforcing the stereotype about depressed whining Frenchman like on cue. This is just too funny. Instead of pointing out an obvious fact that nations can't be pessimistic, no more than they can be intelligent, psychotic or fat, because those are characteristics of an individual, you just have to take the faggot OP's bait. No, you have to write a wall of text filled with preposterous complaints while managing not to to mention one real problem.

>boo-hoo state has a God complex, also taxes are meaaan
Well, what is a country with a weak state? It generally means that the state is replaced either by criminal gangs or religious fanatics. You're welcome to try Congo, or suchlike African countries, or perhaps some shithole under Taliban. I bet you'll be missing your God-complex state like hell before long.
And taxes go to educate and treat you, also to clean up your city from your shite. But even that seems to make you mad, as you go
>boo-hoo free education and healthcare
You'd seriously prefer living in a country where you end up with $500 000 debt after college and have to cook meth if you get cancer?
>boo-hoo education system which stimulates you to actually learn smth in order to be successful, instead of patting you on the head and letting you express what a speshul snowflake you are
What the fuck does an underageb& of 12-16 have to express anyway, besides hormonal angst?
>boo-hoo immigrants
They're in every country of any consequence now (Even in the arses of the world, in fact, because that's where sad jaded cunts llike you and crazy new-agers fuck off to 'downshift'). Welcome to the globalized age! But yes, being a former empire puts you at a higher risk of attracting immigrants. Take pride in your past, if nothing else.
>boo-hoo can't just dance into an industry right outta college, needs funds, connections, also there's Da Man bringin' me down!
Again, it's the same everywhere (where there are industries). Zuckerberg and Jobs are tales for plebs, and anyway, they created their own industries rather than trying to fit into an existing one.
>boo-hoo privilege isn't rooted in race
I won't even comment on that.

Countries with real problems were here and said you're pussies.