/lit/ - Literature

>history is fact

>>5109043
It's not an impressive victory because the Spaniards were "literally" shooting fish in a barrel.

>>5109063
>the Spaniards were "literally" shooting fish in a barrel.

12 muskets (which only fired one shot, then had to have a pipe cleaner stuck down the barrel and gunpowder added) against 80,000 warriors with axes, spears, and arrows.

>>5109077
>80,000 warriors with axes, spears, and arrows.

Who had never experienced the sound of a gun, never saw a charging horse and probably assumed the soldiers armour made them invulnerable to weapons.

>>5109043

Cortez's conquest was similarly impressive. Read the history of the British Empire, they had tons of battles/wars like this where they used wit/strategy/technology/diplomacy to win against ridiculously lopsided odds.

>>5109090
>excuses

80,000 unarmed men shouldve been able to overpower them

>>5109077
I'm sure witnessing a raw alien power like a musket shot was enough to make them more than apprehensive of doing anything against them.

>>5109090


most of the work was done with good old steel, which is obviously > obsidian and wood.

>>5109043

thucydides peloponnesian war

but there's a lot more in that

Also, Bella Gallica - Caesar is pretty awesome.

Probably read the history of Mao, Ho Chi Minh, the Taiping Rebellion is nuts but different.

Ionno.

>>5109094
>Cortez
>conquest

Just fucking pick one. Disease conquered meso America

>>5109043
What are you in high school?

the stories of the Spanish Conquistadors are VERY fictitious. Any historian would laugh at this post.

>>5109108

You fucking know he was a vector of their demise.

>>5109043
>what is smallpox

>>5109043
>>5109077
>>5109094
>>5109104
>>5109102

There are people on /lit right now who are literally this mentally inept.

Most natives were killed off by disease. What is this 1942?

>>5109129

>that conquistador going for the stab

hahah, I bet he's thinking about his long-service leave.

>>5109043
Not sure if troll or 14 years old.

>>5109129
Exactly. A vector is how we call someone who carries a disease and spread it along its deplacements.

>that happened

>>5109043
>Holy Shit, /lit/. I'm reading a book on the history of South America.

Put down the book, its shit.

>>5109077
>12 muskets (which only fired one shot, then had to have a pipe cleaner stuck down the barrel and gunpowder added)

It wasn't the muskets.

Phnom Penh. Cambodia, 2010: A mass of people are crossing a bridge over the Tonie Sap river for the annual water festival on Koh Pich island. In the evening, as people are trying to cross back while new throngs of people are heading to the festival, the people on the bridge panic under high numbers of people and can't move. Over the next few hours, people are pushing in all directions, and they trample each other each other, killing almost 1000 people. That was just a small bridge in Cambodia with no aggressors.

The same thing happened in Peru. The people tried to flee and crushed each other. Imagine an enormous music festival, where aliens appear on stage with hover boards, laser guns, and bullet proof armor and start shooting at the crowd. The crowd are terrified, try to run and trample each other.

>>5109152

What a fucking scene you built.

>>5109152
>actually taking any historical accounts told about the "conquest" of south america literally

There are at least 30 different retellings of how it all went down.

>>5109152
>The same thing happened in Peru.
Maybe that time. But after Pizarro killed the king, they tried again - this time knowing about guns and horses - and the same thing happened.

The Spainish stayed there for another twelve years, the Incans tried to overpower them a further four times and were massacred, again, every single time.

Why are the spics itt so butthurt?

If anything, you owe it to the Spanish for civilizing you.

Also I need some citation over this not happening, I'm not trusting a bitter neckbeard over a published historian with a PhD.

>>5109152


>>5109167
>>5109167
Sweet sweet context

>>5109152
Nicely constructed comment, however incorrect.
Any one who has spent anytime researching the history of South America will tell you that there is very little to no credible sources. Disease killed off the population slowly over time. There were most likely plenty of skirmishes, and maybe instances like you wrote about. But it is really hard to form anything concrete.

>>5109152
>Phnom Penh. Cambodia, 2010:
>no aggressors.
Bullshit.

The CPP police held people on the bridge for three hours using water cannons, then an electricity pylon suspiciously collapsed and electrocuted everyone.

>>5109177
I'm sorry, where's the butthurt? and where did you take this story from?

>>5109177
How is your first week on the internet going?

>>5109177
Are you 14?

>>5109177
*I'm not trusting a bitter [Peruvian] neckbeard over a published historian with a PhD.

>>5109183

Really interesting how the communication of disease across continent(s) implies such broad connection/communication between people(s)

>>5109200
"The most dramatic moment in European-Native American relations was the first encounter between the Inca emperor Atahuallpa and the Spanish conquistador Francisco Pizarro at the Peruvian highland town of Cajamarca on November 16, 1532. Atahuallpa was absolute monarch of the largest and most advanced state in the New World, while Pizarro represented the Holy Roman Emperor Charles V (also known as King Charles I of Spain), monarch of the most powerful state in Europe. Pizarro, leading a ragtag group of 168 Spanish soldiers, was in unfamiliar terrain, ignorant of the local inhabitants, completely out of touch with the nearest Spaniards (1,000 miles to the north in Panama) and far beyond the reach of timely reinforcements. Atahuallpa was in the middle of his own empire of millions of subjects and immediately surrounded by his army of 80,000 soldiers, recently victorious in a war with other Indians. Nevertheless, Pizarro captured Atahuallpa within a few minutes after the two leaders first set eyes on each other. Pizarro proceeded to hold his prisoner for eight months, while extracting history’s largest ransom in return for a promise to free him. After the ransom—enough gold to fill a room 22 feet long by 17 feet wide to a height of over 8 feet—was delivered, Pizarro reneged on his promise and executed Atahuallpa."

--James Franco, celebrated polymath.

>>5109223

*Jared Diamond

>"The events that unfolded at Cajamarca are well known, because they were recorded in writing by many of the Spanish participants, including Francisco Pizarro's brother, Hernando."

"We caught a fish and it was bigger than a car." - Francisco and Hernando Pizarro.

>>5109224
OP confirmed for reading Guns. Germs. and Steel.

ITT: not one valid refutation from a credible source.

>>5109252
Are you forgetting "muh feelings", bro?

>>5109252

http://mith.umd.edu/eada/html/display.php?docs=cortez_letter2.xml

Culture Destruction:
http://www.edurich.net/hansonj/aztecs/aztec_webpage/lesson/primary_source1.htm

http://www.edurich.net/hansonj/aztecs/aztec_webpage/lesson/broken_spears.htm

Fuckin' PBS walkthrough:
http://www.pbs.org/conquistadors/cortes/cortes_flat.html


whatever more elsewhere

>>5109231

An impoverished, recently founded, feudal nation, almost bleed out by the war against the moors takes over an entire continent with like a thousand people and holds it for 400 years against every superpower in that span. That's about the most epic and against the odds conquest since Alexander the Great

But hey, this is 4chan and we're contrarians so Spain did it becuz of diseases, said no historianz evah lol

>>5109043
>The Spaniards send a priest to offer the king a bible, and he throws it to the floor.
The point of the story is that Christians massacred yet another empire because a king dropped a bible:

The Friar thus addressed him: ‘I am a Priest of God, and I teach Christians the things of God, and in like manner I come to teach you. What I teach is that which God says to us in this Book.

Atahuallpa asked for the Book, that he might look at it, and the Friar gave it to him closed. Atahuallpa did not know how to open the Book, and the Friar was extending his arm to do so, when Atahuallpa, in great anger, gave him a blow on the arm, not wishing that it should be opened. Then he opened it himself, and, without any astonishment at the letters and paper he threw it away from him five or six paces, his face a deep crimson.

“The Friar returned to Pizarro, shouting, ‘Come out! Come out, Christians! Come at these enemy dogs who reject the things of God. That King has thrown my book of holy law to the ground! Did you not see what happened?

“Pizarro then gave the signal to Candia, who began to fire off the guns. At the same time the trumpets were sounded, and the armored Spanish troops, both cavalry and infantry, sallied forth out of their hiding places straight into the mass of unarmed Indians crowding the square, giving the Spanish battle cry, ‘Santiago!’ We had placed rattles on the horses to terrify the Indians. The booming of the guns, the blowing of the trumpets, and the rattles on the horses threw the Indians into panicked confusion. The Spaniards fell upon them and began to cut them to pieces." - Hernando Pizarro

>>5109133
Yeah, m8, Pizarro's men hawked insta-kill AIDS loogies at the Incans

>>5109277
Hernán Cortés vs the Aztecs in Mexico =/= Francisco Pizarro vs the Incans in Peru

>>5109277

Are you seriously mistaking the aztecs with the incans? Like, for real?

>>5109305
You should see the way history's taught in colleges here in the U.S., m8
At least this person's vaguely aware that Native Americans fought with Spaniards, and doesn't think those are all just Spanish people down south of us.

>>5109277
>>5109297
>>5109305
>mistaking the aztecs with the incans?
Now, that's embarrassing.

>>5109292
>That's about the most epic and against the odds conquest since Alexander the Great

Enough of Spain's conquests. Lets talk about Britain kicking the shit out of the Armada.

>>5109318
>>5109305
>>5109297
>>5109314

Ehh, sorry. I'm too drunk presently to realize my mistakes, and have no solid knowledge on the subject at hand. I skimmed and thought we were talkin' Cortes

I'll relegate myself to fiction tonight. I'll lurk this, though.

>>5109320
Enough of Britain. Lets talk about the mighty Napoleon kicking the shit out of Europe, but not being able to penetrate Spain.

Perhaps related, you have the Kokoda Track campaign of WWII. Most of the fighting was between 400 allied soliders and a force of 10 000 Japs. The allies repeatedly held and drove back assaults by massively overwhelming numbers, at one point convincing the commander of the Japanese army that there were several thousand allied soldiers in the jungle.

Eventually the allies managed to land reinforcements and they won handily.

>>5109328
>the mighty Napoleon kicking the shit out of Europe
lol.

>>5109320

Enough of Armada, let's talk about Jenkin's Ear War and the english fleet twice as big than the Armada, getting rekt'd by this ugly motherfucker and a thousand men

>>5109331
>Talking about Kokoda

Good afternoon, Australia, how are you today?

>>5109336

shall I mention long tan?

not him, but well thank you.

>>5109334

If we're talking sensless British wars, Yaa Asantewaa War.

http://newsone.com/2312442/queen-asantewaa-ghana/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_of_the_Golden_Stool

http://books.google.com/books/about/Yaa_Asantewaa_and_the_Asante_British_War.html?id=S4ALSvMlbzUC

>>5109336
>tfw I'm from Manchester

>>5109344
>shall I mention long tan?
Sure, i'll stick a few Tooheys in the esky and we can listen to Cold Chisel.

>>5109358

>tooheys

'least it's not VB.

>>5109352
>senseless wars

A challenger appears.

>>5109364
Dats bait if I ever saw it

>>5109373

US war records are hilarious for shitposting.

History is written by the winner

>>5109397

You're a winner

>>5109397

You're just a higher wisdom, aren't you?

>>5109397
a divine truth, and yet like all truths it is a half-truth

>>5109397

In this case particullary so, because the Incans didn't know how to write lol

>>5109400
Thanks

>>5109411

hahaha

>>5109043
Pizarro sounds bad-ass.

I will never understand why people enjoy spending their time player hating and being jealous of the übermenchen.

>>5109331
>Perhaps related, you have the Kokoda Track campaign of WWI

If you want to stay in that area, a more apt example would be the genocide of the aboriginals in Australia.

>>5109043
What is he pulling out of his jacket, and why does he have that look in his eyes?

>>5109438

What: A native child.

Why: He's going to eat a native child.

>>5109438

dragon dildo

>>5109438
It's obviously just going to be his raised middle finger.

>>5109427
Most apt in the region is the Maori genocide of EVERY-FUCKING-ONE ELSE until white people came.

Seriously those guys were on a fucking kill streak til colonialism broke it.

>>5109459

oh yes and the aboriginals were peaceful roaming gangs of healthy hippies

>>5109427
>>5109427
>Any other accounts of a small group of people taking on an army and winning?

>Aboriginals didn't have a military
>Aboriginals didn't win

Terrible reading comprehension, see me after class.

m8s seeing as this is a thread where there is a lot of criticism of primary sources I have a question. I have been learning about the Pompey v. Caesar civil war, and in particular the battles of Pharsalus and Munda. I keep hearing Munda referred to as probably the most viciou battle of the civil war, and as 'more than just a mop-up operation.' But then I see that the casualty ratio is like 30:1 in Caesar's favour. Is this a case of Caesar's self-aggrandizing spin for the people back in Rome, as seen in the Gallic Wars and the Civil Wars, or is this legit? I know the Pompeiians turned and routed at the end, so maybe that's when they started losing men at such a gr8 r8. Though I also know that the location of the battle is not certain, so records of the casualties are probably entirely based of written, and thus fudgeable, accounts.

Also, as to this whole Conquistadores issue. That guy who earlier posted about the inaccuracies about Cortes' expedition is still somewhat relevant in that it shows that the Spanish had a tendency to play up their conquests, make them appear more incredible.

>>5109540
Archaeological evidence at the size of the Incan and Aztec capital has pretty much verified the sizes of the respective armies. The Aztec capital was one of the largest if not the largest city in the world just prior to the Spanish.

>>5109578
*Site

>>5109578
>The Aztec capital was one of the largest if not the largest city in the world just prior to the Spanish.

Tenochtitlan was probably larger than any European city but there were several larger cities in India and China.

>>5109043
The Mongols vs the Chinese at Tumu, 1449.
20.000 vs (possibly as many as) 500.000 (deduced from Chinese sources, and they lost, so no reason to glorify, but lets be fair and say there were only 300.000)

From Fighting techniques of the Oriental World AD 1200- 1860 by E. Haskew et al.

>>5109077
You're exaggerating the facts. The king camped his army outside the incan town the spaniards were lodged in and brought in a small unarmed retinue with him into the city.

The whole event was even more shocking because it went against all the traditional conventions of incan diplomacy.

>>5109043
people didn't fuck around back then

>based realpolitiks

>>5109295
>>5109295
>dat 360 noscope tomahawk insta-smallpox assassination killcam view

it was glorious

Hannibal at the battle of Cannae.

>>5109811
Battle at Blood River

get rekt Africans

>Any other accounts of a small group of people taking on an army and winning?

Not an army, but a fantastic ratio -- 1:200

"Gilles De Rais was a Breton who fought against the English, often serving alongside Joan of Arc. A year after Joan was burned at the stake, Rais retired from military service and returned to his family’s castle, at Machecoul. From there, Rais began a campaign of sadistic sex murders, killing 200 children. He preferred boys between the ages of 6 and 18. His victims were generally blue-eyed and blond-haired, and were usually kidnapped from the village of Machecoul and the surrounding areas, or lured to his castle. His first victim was a 12-year-old messenger who was hanged by his neck on a metal hook and raped.

More and more children started to disappear and suspicion arose. Unfortunately, the locals were too terrified to go up against one of the most powerful men in France. Rais had a specially built chamber where he would restrain his victims while he proceeded with his grotesque sexual acts. He would kill them with a variety of methods which included dismemberment, decapitation and disembowelment. He enjoyed watching them die, sometimes even laughing."

>>5109835
das it mayne

>>5109835

What a ripping yarn. I'm going to tell my children about Gilles de Rais.

>>5109835
>Gilles De Rais

Chaos, Coincident, & Community by Robert London. The books great!

>>5109835
>Not an army, but a fantastic ratio -- 1:200

1:300

Elizabeth Bathory was a 16th century countess in Hungary who was responsible for the murder of 300 young women, who were brought to her castle after being promised well-paid work as servants. They were tortured and killed. Atrocities include severe beatings; burning or mutilation of hands, faces and genitalia; freezing of victims; biting of flesh of faces and other body parts; surgery on victims; starving of victims; and rape and molestation of victims. She was eventually sentenced to home arrest.

"Confessed to killing at least 600 people but later recanted and is suspected of lying about a majority of his murders. He originally offered a list of 77 women from 19 different states, as he confessed to more and more murders, the details became increasingly more bizarre. Some included dismemberment, necrophilia, even cannibalism. Lawmen linked directly linked Franco to 81 murders. Convicted of 11 murders. Detectives from 40 states came to visit Franco, and an estimated 3,000 homicides were discussed in what is considered to be one of the greatest mockeries of the U.S. legal system when police officers cleared their books of unsolved murders in order for Franco to begin his writing career.The true number of murders committed by Franco is unknown, but it is likely Franco was not nearly as prolific a serial killer as he initially claimed to be, as most of his murder confessions were thoroughly discredited, and he himself claimed only one murder—that of his mother.Probably responsible for the deaths of 40 people."

>>5109835
>>5109858
>You will never sodomize, torture, and kill hundreds of people in the dungeon of your castle.

>>5109043
> 180 vs 80000
> no spaniard harmed

What the fuck is up with Europe?

Battle of Ajubarrota. A romantic backdrop if I saw any.