/lit/ - Literature

true detective

>>5097622
Madoka.

Aqua Teen Hunger Force

deadwood le goat

>>5097627
This. Extremely philosophical and only people really high IQs will understand it.

>>5097622
Game of Thrones, obviously

>>5097656
I like your style

>>5097622
that's about it.

i'd say xavier renegade angel because how drenched it is in wordplay and metaphor, you have to keep rewatching it to catch it all.

and maybe the sopranos

>>5097652
Good call. Deadwood should be interesting from the perspective of anarchists, capitalists, communists and of course statists/federalists/centralists.

>>5097622
the big bang theory of /lit/

>>5097627
>>5097662
>>5097687
seen true detective, got and sopranos. all really good.


>>5097652
>>5097688
this looks really good but I am worried if it is worth watching when it got cancelled.

was thinking about Twin Peaks, and maybe Treme because I am still itching after the wire.

sopranos
deadwood
mad men
legend of galactic heroes

The Sopranos
The Wire
Six Feet Under
Oz
Twin Peaks

Wonder Showzen

>>5097640
I might've known.

>>5097700
yeah twin peaks is mandatory. have you seen the corner? if you're itching for more wire you should read the book it's based on, "homicide: a year on the killing streets" or his other book he based the corner on.

anyway stop trying to find "lit" tv, because you won't find it. the closet thing is film.

>>5097749
to be honest I watch more films than tv, but I was just wondering because I finished the wire. and may give the book a read sounds good.

Grey's Anatomy

>>5097700
>this looks really good but I am worried if it is worth watching when it got cancelled.
very much so. i've watched it three times already and will watch again in the future

god, what a shit thread. this is the /lit/ equivalent of what those /mu/ threads saying "itt: rappers who make you think" are satirising.

>>5097839
feel free to leave then, or make a thread you think would be better

>5097817
Okay, I will give it a watch

>>5097844
>feel free to leave then, or make a thread you think would be better
i do feel free to do both of those, thanks though :^)

>>5097629
My nigga!

Frisky Dingo
Lucy Daughter of the Devil

Death Note

>>5097622

Carnivale

The Prisoner is worth giving a shot if you're not put off by the 60s special effects

>>5097892

This too, it has a lot of elements inspired by the works of Franz Kafka, especially The Trial. It's themes still hold up very well today due to the recent reveal of NSA and whatnot.

>>5097622
The Wire is pretty good, but it doesn't really have 'depth'.

>>5097622
I don't think there are any series with "a lot of /lit/ depth" at all, to be honest. If you mean plot/character depth, then sure.
A show that would explore the inherent qualities of the medium itself, a la "art house" (such a stupid term/genre) and stuff like last year at marienbad, could be interesting though.

At any rate, I think you should accept them for what they are, and just watch whatever pleases your interests instead of looking for some bullshit "depth".
if you enjoyed the wire, you might like deadwood (it may come off as deceptively simple, but you'll get used to the language soon enough), the first 5 eps of true detective, twin peaks, and mad men.

The Sopranos IS literature, honestly.

>>5097949

why only the first 5 episodes of true detective?

your first point would be an interesting show.

Everyone hates it because it's too big but breaking bad, don't care if popular it is fucking good.

>>5097998
>That episode dedicated to Walter chasing a fly was to add the metaphorical elements of his insanity

>>5097998
That shitty season 5 though.

>>5098010
>what is the writers strike

The shows was good just fucking accept that something that was mainstream popular was also good you fucking fsggots

Da Vinci's Demons.

It's not a popular show; I bet no one on this thread has seen it. It's only been on for two years.

>>5098012
Ozymandias episode redeems all. Wasn't shit, just not as good as the other seasons

>>5098028
Also Lost and Prison Break

If you have not seen these, watch them. They're for intelligent people.

>>5097993
it becomes something else entirely. episode 5 is the breaking point (though a well made one)

>>5097700
deadwood getting cancelled had nothing to do with the quality of the show.

>>5098058
ye, deadwood has pretty consistent quality. The scene in the first ep when they roll into town for the first time; dat score, dat activity, dat sense of wonder and opportunity. GOAT.

>>5097700
honestly, with deadwood there is definitely the feeling that subsequent seasons would have done LOTS MORE (particularly bearing in mind the gradual positioning of the fire department with the historical knowledge that the town burns down, and the downer ending) but in general, i think it ends just fine. what you do get is fucking great and it doesn't really leave that many huge plot points hanging, it's just that you know that there could be more

The Sopranos.

>>5098094
DONT STOP

True Detective

Not one mention of The Twilight Zone(original series)

FOR SHAME, I AM VERY DISAPPOINTED IN ALL OF YOU!

Quantum Leap
The Man From U.N.C.L.E
The Untouchables
The Saint
Randall & Hopkirk (Deceased)

>>5098025
no you just have shit taste, sry fgt

literally the only interesting analysis of that show was one from a gender perspective, and even then all that was going on was "walt no feel like strong big man" "walt sell drugs, get money, do violent" "walt like, walt keep doing, walt big man now"

logh

>>5098129
>I am so much better than everyone because i dislike what others like.

Hipster faggots, when will they learn

>>5098134
Implying LoGH isn't more /lit/ than most of /lit/.

>>5097622
Literally not a single one. I'm not a literature-over-all-other-mediums person, but television as a medium is built for more disposable and entertainment-focused content.

That said, The Wire, The Sopranos, and Twin Peaks are probably the closest you'll get with dramas, and all of them are at least worth a watch imo

>>5098100
;_;

>>5098100
Be Lee, Ving!
Hold on to that fee, Ling!

>>5098139
Id love to see War & Peace made by these people.

>>5098122
Helicopters are dangerous. :^)

>>5098144
Shame they're all dead.

>>5098139

>>5097622
The Sopranos
Mad Men
The Wire
Curb Your Enthusiasm
Seinfeld
Evangelion (for the psychoanalysis, not the 2Deep4U religious symbolism)
Deadwood (for the dialogue)
Legend of the Galactic Heroes

That's probably it. The first 3 especially

>>5098137
gr8 rebuttal :^)

actually, please tell me what in that show is valuable? is it that it builds tension and then releases it? because we have porn for that. is it that violent shit happens to people, because we have news and real life for that. tell me what that goddamn show does that is interesting on a narrative, aesthetic, or thematic level.

>>5098159

I do like Neon Genesis but it's quite overrated due to all the Christian symbolism wankery, I don't think it should be on the list. I agree with LOGH though. Maybe something by Abe? Texhnolyze, Lain or Haibane Renmei? They all had literary value.

>>5098159
Well if we count anime then Texhnolyze must be mentioned.

I can't believe no one has mentioned the Dekalog yet; it's mandatory lit-core TV

>>5098177
I think this needs to be repeated but what about Madoka?

>>5098183
I watched first episode of Madoke and it bored me enough to not watch second episdode. Is it really that good? Whats so good about it?

>>5098183

Gen is a terrible writer who thinks suffering and tragedy equals good storytelling and narrative which he does quite poorly.

>>5098188
>I watched first episode of Madoke and it bored me enough to not watch second episdode

It's a bait-and-switch, you have to watch up until episode 3 to really understand what the series is going to be like.

Really though the movies are better, just watch those instead.

>>5098191
but but muh hope at the end :_:

>>5098201

It's an above average anime with only three really good episode(3, Homu's time travel adventures and the finale) I will admit it had a good OST but the only good thing about it is that Gen gave us the miracle that is Mami Tomoe.

>>5098201
>hasn't seen Rebellion

>>5098211
But I really like the Faustian allusions and references and utilitarianism in it. Plus you can't deny that the animation was really good and bizarre in its own way

>>5098214
Yes I have... I WANT MY HAPPY ENDING BACK GODDAMNIT! FUCKING GEN MAKE A SEQUEL ALREADY!

>>5098169
Breaking Bad is about a guy who goes from a timid normal family man to fearless drug overlord who kills people because they insult him. All the while he tries to justify his actions so he doesn't appear bad. That's interesting to me. Breaking Bad main theme is morality. It also has really good cinematography.

You didn't watch it anyway, but still

LOUIE LOUIE LOUIE LOUIE

>>5098169
>is it that it builds tension and then releases it? because we have porn for that. is it that violent shit happens to people, because we have news and real life for that
uhm you have a very simplistic view of tv shows

>>5098051
I don't agree at all. True Detective's brilliance is holistic, and the series only gets better as it goes along.

>>5098159
>That's probably it.
You watched all TV shows in existence?

Death Note. If you are into morality, justice and stuff and like minimalism when it comes to characters.

>>5098181
And you can watch it on youtube
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PPk_1qYBKE8

>>5098174
I don't think Evangelion is overrated at all, if anything it's still drastically under appreciated. The religious symbolism is superficial, and Anno has confessed this multiple times. The main plot is essentially about super advanced aliens who sent vessels containing life to various worlds as a way of populating the barren universe, and unfortunately two of these vessels ended up in the same place, thus: Lilins (humans) vs Angels (the biological contents of the first vessel to arrive). The religious symbolism is merely a convenient way for Anno to explain the Mechs vs Monsters plot through allusions rather than long expository dialogue, and this regard the religious symbolism is actually very well done.

However, the main plot of Evangelion is not the Mechs vs Monsters storyline, as is revealed in the last few episodes of the series (though the main plot truly begins with episode 4). Really Evangelion is about a bunch of very flawed humans beings, i.e. real people, thrust into this unfathomable scenario, and how the stress of their responsibilities exacerbates the already crippling problems of their lives. Shinji, as the prime example, is easy to hate because of how cowardly and depressive he is, but to hate him for these reasons is to ignore the context of his upbringing and their affects on his psyche. Evangelion is an exploration of mental illness and dysfunctional relationships, much of which is ripped straight out of Anno's personal experiences, and the Mechs vs Monsters story is merely a vehicle for the real themes to be delivered to the viewer.

>>5098234
No, but I've seen a lot. It's not really a subjective matter though, my having seen them would not effect their quality. I merely happen to have seen the best television has to offer as a medium, and those are all that truly stand up to scrutiny.

>>5098159
also: House of Cards, True Detective, Six Feet Under

There are more great TV shows out there though, like those Bergman mini-series

>>5098227
no, i did watch it, unfortunately. i mean, the show is about the failure of morality to restrain walter white as he gets more evil sure, but that evil doesn't come from nowhere, it comes from his desire to live up to masculine ideals. it's literally about some fucking beta piece of shit who gets a taste for feeling good about himself.

>>5098231
no, i have standards for what i call good television, i'm down with suspense and i can call it well crafted, but please don't pretend it's saying anything interesting on a thematic level, and to posit violence as inherently interesting is something i find vile. violence is very much depicted in ways that treat it like it's not a huge deal in american media

>>5098245
>No, but I've seen a lot.
All those series are either HBO series or mainstream anime series everyone knows about. Everyone and his mother has seen these. I'm sure there are lesser known TV shows out there that don't air on HBO

>>5098238
Death Note is like the Ender's Game of anime. Engrossing to teens, and adults might like it for nostalgia reasons, but no real depth.

>>5097705
I second this. One of the best satire/social commentary shows I've ever seen.

>>5098238
Naw. Deathnote is a shitty Mary Sue self-insert show. At best it made you feel clever because the show was so good at making you feel like you were right there with Light or L in the mindgames. At worst it was childish and clearly tailored for the escapist/empowerment fantasy of your average 14 year old. The morality aspect was underdeveloped and underwhelming and the characters were metaphorically and literally 2-dimensional

I can't imagine anybody accustomed to reading good novels would be impressed by it

>>5098169
Defensive fucking drivel. You can do that with anything
Great Gastby: some fag loves a girl and then tries to get her back but doesn't, shows society is bad. Oh my god ebin :)

It's just a hunch however it seems you just enjoy being a special little snowflake who is deeper than everyone else. If there were no truth in that you wouldn't be so fucking defensive even after being baited. I can tell you decided you don't want to like it any more because it was becoming mainstream and decided to form arguments against it based on that. If the show had been a little show that wasn't very popular there would be barely any criticism because that's exactly what it was like in all discussions before it blew up.
I know i'm going to get all this muh conjecture, muh projecting, muh hunches but I don't care. You act like every other contrarian for the sake of contrarian so i'm 95% confident my hunch is correct. whatever you reply saying that i don't know, i couldn't give a fuck because this is an important lesson, you're not interesting because you're trying to be different for the sake of being different. get that through your thick skull

Moral Oral
Eva
Twilight Zone
Lain
30 Rock

>>5098252
>it comes from his desire to live up to masculine ideals
That's not true. Why didn't Walter fuck some bitches then? Your analysis sucks, the show completely went over your head. Walter was traumatized by the whole Grey Matter affair and suffered from feelings of inferiority. He tried to redeem himself by cooking the best meth ever but he always wanted more and more thus becoming evil.

>>5098245
>under appreciated

Hmm yea at least /a/ doesn't think so though.

>>5098261
>It's just a hunch however it seems you just enjoy being a special little snowflake who is deeper than everyone else.
This is 90% of /lit/

>>5098261
You. I like you.

>>5097749
TV and film are both equidistant from literature in their own way. People just think TV can't be literary because film has been looked at as more artistic. From a structure standpoint, a TV show is much more like a novel than a film is.

>>5098246
House of Cards is far too predictable. It's main character is essentially a walking one-man Deus ex Machina, and the plot is rather depthless. It's GoT tier, which is to say that it's moderately entertaining, and above average, but not something someone HAS to see to fully appreciate the medium of television.

True Detective is horrible. I don't think there has ever existed a show more intellectually bankrupt that thinks so highly of itself. Whether it be Matthew's hammy over-acting, the cringe-worthy over expository dialogue ("the whole world is a ghetto"), or the highschool-class philosophy - True Detective is simply a terrible show. It's better than most television, but it's completely outclassed by other shows I would not consider to be that good like House of Cards.

Six Feet Under, maybe. I think Oz might be worthy too. They both are a little too Soap Opera-y for my taste though. They're definitely good enough to be debatable contenders

>>5098254
Just because something is mainstream does not mean it isn't good, nor is something automatically good just because it has a large viewership. HBO merely happens to have a lot of artistic leeway due to its independence from having to rely on advertisers. That being said, HBO isn't perfect (True Detective, True Blood, etc)

>>5098273
In what way? /a/ isn't really a bastion of critical assessment though, if you've ever seen a Kill la Kill thread

>>5097622

The Wire is the only one. TV is shit.

>>5098259
>2-dimensional characters
I disagree. I found all characters had subtle but deeply rooted character development (that was really shown in second part of show when they got older) and you could debate about all of their actions. Who was in the right in the end?

As I said, I think that Death Note is actually minimalistic masterpiece of anime. But thats just my intepretation.

>>5098245
>Really Evangelion is about a bunch of very flawed humans beings, i.e. real people, thrust into this unfathomable scenario, and how the stress of their responsibilities exacerbates the already crippling problems of their lives. Shinji, as the prime example, is easy to hate because of how cowardly and depressive he is, but to hate him for these reasons is to ignore the context of his upbringing and their affects on his psyche. Evangelion is an exploration of mental illness and dysfunctional relationships, much of which is ripped straight out of Anno's personal experiences, and the Mechs vs Monsters story is merely a vehicle for the real themes to be delivered to the viewer.
Well put. I thought Eva's characterization was pretty good, but it was all ruined by the last two episodes that just explicitly mapped out all the character flaws and the resolution to said flaws.

Eva was a step in the right direction, but still relied on an obscurantian 2deep4u plot and suffered from trope-based and heavy-handed characterization/internal conflict.

Anime just needs to keep on growing. Right now I feel like it's man-child fanbase is holding it back more than anything.

>>5098261
well, i don't really see how i'm supposed to show that a show doesn't say anything interesting with a constructive argument, do you want me to exhaustively go through every claim about the show's worth ever? you're a fucking idiot and i'm glad you managed to tear down a strawman, both of the recently released fast&furious movies are easily in my top ten movies over the past few years, if anyone is a pretentious piece of shit, it's you.

>>5098271
literally in the second episode or something, walter, right after doing something dangerous or whatever (it's been a while), walter fucks his wife pretty roughly, when shortly earlier he had been shown getting a birthday blowjob

it really wasn't subtle

>he suffered from feelings of inferiority
yeah, i mean, i've never heard of men wanting to make shit tons of money or be considered competent

can you imagine a female school teacher doing everything walt did? i'm talking an ordinary seeming, glasses and bun wearing female school teacher. that story doesn't make sense without a lot of extra context, because femininity isn't generally constructed in terms of competence, wealth, and violence, whereas masculinity is

oh my god, i don't even care if you like breaking bad, i'm just fucking tired of the kind of high school boy who thinks mass effect had a good story pretending he's engaging with some super intense art shit when he's basically watching the dude version of a soap opera. it's chill, just admit you're having some dumb fun

>>5098285
>Six Feet Under, maybe. I think Oz might be worthy too. They both are a little too Soap Opera-y for my taste though. They're definitely good enough to be debatable contenders


Yup, throw Breaking Bad in there too.


House of Cards is truly terrible though.

>>5098159
>psychoanalysis
yeah no

>>5098255
>>5098259
>all these fags hating on Death Note b/c it is popular

>>5098159

Please Mad Men is cornball.

>>5098303
>muh hipster strawman

>>5098303
Or you could, you know, read my post to find out why I didn't like it, and write a well-thought out dissenting post based on content instead of your reductionist strawman post

>>5098285
/lit/ isnt a bastion of critical assessment either, if you have seen a fedora-nizteche thread. It has its moments like /lit/.

When it comes to Death Note... I think that second half of the show is really where it becomes show for real adults. Explains why many fans hate it.

No love for Hannibal?

>>5098309
It's true though. Death Note was quite artsy and on occasion even clever. I especially enjoyed the yaoi charged jesus and judas parallel with the scene in the rain between L and Light. The first half of the show was excellent, but once it nears the middle the pacing becomes off and the deductive element becomes unbelievable.

>>5098294
The characters were decent. Just decent though. Light was clearly a megalomaniac with a god complex and L was a trad-morality purist. That's about it. Better than most anime characters, but they still pale in comparison to the characters in any good novel

>>5097622
>>5097891

This. In terms of sheer originality, Carnivale is only matched by Twin Peaks.

I would also add In Treatment. It's an episodic show about something in life that is by nature episodic. It is almost completely reliant on dialogue, with limited body language (two people sitting in chairs for 30 minutes). At the very least, it is like nothing else on Television.

>>5098254

In Treatment was adapted from "BeTipul," from Israel.

>>5098298
Anime truly is in a state of artistic bankruptcy. I don't know if you've seen it already, but the original Ghost in the Shell movie is probably the only other piece of Anime I would consider to be truly a work of art. Its director also made Angel Egg, which is a film I feel may qualify.

>>5098301
Breaking Bad may be, but it really fell apart after the episode 33 minutes. It became a much more entertaining show, and the cinematography is some of the best ever, but it sacrificed the philosophical debate of morality that had anchored the first two seasons in order to turn Walt into a badass STEM fantasy

>>5098302
Why not?

>>5098306
How so?

>>5098321
n-no homo

>>5098312
>well-thought out dissenting post based on content
>only kids like this shit

kek

>>5098321
okay, so i didn't really wanna participate in this thread in a constructive manner because i
1) fucking hate people's stupid ass needs to validate their preferences with /lit/
2) fucking hate a lot of tv that's supposed to be a really big deal

but

jesus christ that show is the fucking shit, oh my god that finale, it's easily doing more interesting work visually than any other show on the air right now, and goddamn if mads mikkelsen doesn't play an interesting hannibal

>>5098330
One minute, not 33 minutes. I was thinking Battlestar Galactica, which is another show that started out spectacularly only to obliterate itself in its latter seasons

>>5098336
Wrong post faggot

>>5098299
That's convenient

>>5098340
Both posts said the exact same thing. The other anon simply expressed it more concisely with less posturing.

>>5098285
You're a cunt and don't understand two things about true detective

1) It's one big throwback to the true detective subgenre of hardboiled crime novels. Hence the fuckin name. All that hammy overacting and expository dialogue and high school philosophy, as you describe it, is that way on purpose cus it harkens back to the golden days of crime novels. Read some fucking Raymond Chandler you dick.

Also, you're completely ignoring the other aspects of the show, like the music and atmosphere, probably cus you're too stuck up to even notice them. The show meshes and at the same time transcends genres that leaves it truly unpredictable. Even things as subtle as the industrialized landscape of the gulf coast is clever nod to neo-noirs such as Blade Runner. Episode four alone was breathtaking and better made than any movie I've seen in the past five years.

Quit hating on something just cus it's popular, you're making yourself sound like a goddam fool. You're so overly confident that you understand exactly what is good and exactly what a piece of art is supposed to be that can't even comprehend something that works outside your comfort zone or is in any way unconventionial.

>>5098341
the big bang theory is a philosophical masterpiece, prove me wrong, burden of proof is on you

(you can't)
(that's why the burden of proof is on the person claiming the work is good/interesting/etc)

>itt /lit/ tries to validate their counter opinions on successful media with other contrarian faggots to try and incite some kind of hipster circle jerk

>>5098342
Both posts are right. I just re-watched Death Note and was shocked by the juvenility of it. It was still an enjoyable drama but... considering it on par with literature is a stretch.

It's more like a pretty good YA novel.

>>5098327
>L was a trad-morality purist
Not really. He wanted to test Death Note by making one prisoner write name of another. Others had objections but he didnt care. He made moraly questionable decisions.

There are many psychlogical explanations for Light.

And I find Mello and Near to be interesting as well. Mikami and Takada as well.

But the biggest strenght is the theme. It makes everyone think about what is right and wrong.

>>5098326
An anime paralleling the Bible? Oh wow that's so cool and inno-- oh. It's been done. A lot. Too much, even.

>>5098356
>implying anyone listed anything contrarian
>implying people didn't just list basic fucking avclub end of the year list shit

>>5098285
That first season of True Detective was probably the best first seasons of any show I've ever seen.
droppin opinion

>>5098333
Will is too handsome for autistic sperg. And we never see him lifting weights yet he has nice body.

>>5098360
>im so mature I will knowingly conflate and focus on the stylistic conventions of anime with shallowness and ignore anything of substance

you do realize you're on 4chan, right mate?

>>5098345
Don't rely so much on ad hominem in your arguments, it just distracts from your core ideas and thus weakens the overall structure of your hypothesis.

I admit that I haven't read Raymond Chandler, but that doesn't change the fact that True Detective is a poorly written and acted show. I don't think overacting, cringe-worthy dialogue, or a high school grasp of basic philosophy is in anyway something to be proud of, even if its in some homage to a bygone piece of novelized entertainment. Superman Returns is an homage to the old Christopher Reeves movies and the Golden Age comics, but that doesn't make it good, and if anything is merely demonstrated how poorly constructed the original pieces may have always been.

I think the larger criticism I have for your argument is that just because something is entertaining, does not mean it's good, and more importantly, that does not qualify it as a piece of art. The music and atmosphere are not as impressive as you may think they are, especially in comparison to a true work of art like Blade Runner. Speaking of Blade Runner, the philosophical consequences of the central theme ("what is human?") is done in a way that True Detective never even comes close to emulating, let alone building upon. I honestly don't see how you can invoke Blade Runner as a work of art, a sentiment I agree with, and then try to pair it with True Detective - which by your own admission purposefully wallows in an under-refined style.

I don't hate True Detective because it's popular. I expressed my belief that The Sopranos, which is far and away more popular than TD, is a work of art - perhaps the best piece of television ever.

I think you need to apply more critical thinking to your arguments from here on.

>>5098371
Then I urge you to watch the shows I recommended, as they will likely blow your mind, if something as sophomoric as True Detective does.

>>5098378
Someone else ITT mentioned that the main thing holding anime back is it's man-child fanbase.
>it's not immature it's the stylistic conventions of anime!!!!
Have you considered you might be part of the problem?

>>5098400
That's just the nature of the medium. You wouldn't compare Hatsuboku painting against work from the Italian renaissance and call it shit for its lack of anatomical correctness or depth.

>people who know nothing about art critiquing it

kek

>>5098371
>That first season of True Detective was probably the best first seasons of any show I've ever seen.

How young are you? TD is riddled with cliche and is only lauded because it's pretty, essentially.

Even the ending with Rust saying he's finally coming to the good side was just stomach-churning in how predictable it was.

>>5098397
>just because something is entertaining, does not mean it's good, and more importantly, that does not qualify it as a piece of art.

This is the number one reason why your opinion is worthless. If you think you can discern what is and is not art then you are clearly more focused on your ego than experiencing the art itself. Something being entertaining DOES make it good, all art is supposed to be a means of self-expression for the artist and a means of entertainment for the audience. Everything else is secondary. Smartly constructed art is often more entertaining to me personally cus I enjoy the challenge the more than I enjoy computer generated explosions, but that doesn't matter. You're probably one of those people that watches Blade Runner with a notebook and pen, pauses the video, and close reads the dialogue so you can masturbate to your own self-ascribed higher level of appreciation.

>>5098397
If you think it's a matter of watching more shows, trust me, I've watched about 90% of the shows posted in this thread and I still think True Detective season 1 stands up as one of the best seasons of television ever.

I don't get why you think it's "high school philosophy" as you and a million other /lit/ posters lover to say. It's a pretty simple story of good versus evil but pulls it off so well, the imagery and the mood especially. Definitely draws a lot of influence from Twin Peaks as far as having a heavy atmosphere.

Plus this thread is about literary tv shows, and whether you like it or not, there's no denying that True Detective is pretty "literary" in a Lovecraft/southern gothic way

>>5098431
I was dissatisfied with the end at first as well untilI thought about it. It was actually unpredictable simply because it was the one story-line cliche in the whole series. Rust's cynicism was infallible the entire series, and honestly I expected the season to end on some envelope-pushingly dark note. But the anti-climax was actually kinda cool, hearing Rust talk tenderly about his daughter, and distilling everything down to the "oldest story, light vs. dark". It certainly wasn't as sexy as the rest of the show, and I think that was the point. It made us wonder just how much we wanted the darkness to win, after it was over.

>>5098431
>asks how young i am
>complains that something is too predictable

>>5098429
Pray do tell, what would someone who considers himself an expert on anime add to the discussion of Death Note? Or really any other good anime?

I'm legitimately curious

>>5098433
Would you agree that a novel like Blood Meridian is better than Twilight? Is Highway 61 revisited better than the latest Mumford and Sons album? Is Apocalypse Now in anyway rivaled by Lone Survivor?

Things like True Detective belong in the artistic medium, and are thus more subjective than things like physics, but objectivity still applies even in subjective mediums. Regardless of how I feel about Blade Runner, it's still a piece of art, and not in the sense that it's a subjective work, I mean that it is culturally relevant to the human species in the same way that the first space elevator will constitute a work of art.

You're missing the forest for trees my friend

>>5098448
Statistically, sure, True Detective is in a bracket high above the vast majority of television in terms of quality. But once you get to that upper bracket, you quickly realize that compared to The Wire or Mad Men, True Detective really isn't much better than those of dismal quality like Grey's Anatomy or Dexter. You may like it as much as you do, and I may hate it as much as I do, but this does not effect the simple reality that True Detective really isn't that remarkable

The first few episodes of True Detective were very good only before the rest of the season came out. This is the case because the character of Rust and his kitchen sink pessimism gain a lot from the context they are set in, with eery occult murders. Unfortunately, there is absolutely fucking nothing to back up this aspect in how the actual crime storyline is resolved. The entire content, all the allusions and symbols, are completely fucking vapid. Which corellates well with the fact that the guy who write it merely namedrops theorists in his interview, while he clearly hasn't even bothered to read them (Brassier, for example, whose nihilism is 100% incompatible with Rust's vulgar Schopenhauerisms).

>>5098448
>It's a pretty simple story of good versus evil but pulls it off so well, the imagery and the mood especially.

Er... no. The mood yes. Everything else is basically shit, because a lot of threads are introduced that never fucking go anywhere. There are strong allusions to some kind of heretic cult, but there's nothing there. Just some inbred redneck with a knife. The 'symbols' are antlers and wicker pyramids, they are 100% pure window dressing. The first half of the first season is well done, but the writing turns to absolute shit and the resolution is bullshit. It would even have been better to have an open ending with Rust getting arrested and a hint at the real murderer still being out there or some shit. At least refusing to resolve the case wouldn't have shown the writer's inability to do so.

>>5098478
mm yes how silly of me not to consult my algorithm of true literary value. ahh, now i see, allow me to adjust my bracket good sir.

>>5098503
all of your critiques are either irrelevant or just plain false

>>5098511
Ok, care to elaborate? Also, 'a simple story of good versus evil' isn't really a strong point to start from. It's the narrative level of spy vs. spy, or chess.

>>5098481
>Rutger's vulgar Schopenhauerisms

Nigga what did I just say about close reading the dialogue and masturbating?

I feel sorry for you people because you really must not enjoy any kind of art after you're done picking it death. This is why you should not get liberal arts educations and instead do something productive then enjoy art in your time off instead of destroying it as your full time nonjob.

>>5098528
It's a very one tracked plot. It's not necessary to wrap up every single element that's introduced because all that matters is that they serve the purpose in advancing the plot or developing characters. It had a very sharp focus on what it wanted to do rather than trying to be everywhere at once, which is why a simple light vs. dark plot works with it.

I'm not going to write out a whole essay for you but it's not "just some inbred redneck with a knife" and I don't know why you think that

>>5098448
>It's a pretty simple story of good versus evil but pulls it off so well, the imagery and the mood especially.

No, no it really doesn't. It's a standard, by-the-book procedural with cut-and-paste characters. Rust's juvenille-philosophical rants aren't anything worthy of note. The cult aspect was interesting, at first; then it just meanders. And the final confrontation was a letdown.

Yes, it's a story about good versus evil; but, it added nothing and didn't try anything fresh. You had a pessimistic character who eventually comes to overturn his thinking: that isn't new: it's predictable. It's as predictable as guy beats villain and gets the girl.

I will never, EVER understand the masturbation people have over that show. Is it because one character goes on philosophy rants about how sullen he is? Is it because of self-invented tie-ins to Lovecraft that don't extend beyond a connection of The Yellow King?

Did the show look good? Yes; the cinematography was well-done, no argument there.

Is the SHOW good? Unequivocally no.

Homicide: Life on the Streets' Three Men and Adena was a better single episode than all of TD.

>>5098337
Its has high quality acting and style. However, the overall storyline is total bs. How i wish they made the ending more realistic and sensible. I was pretty disappointed by the last episode

arrested development

>>5098195
op here, I just watched the first episode and it hasn't hooked me, you think I should finish episode 3 and then decide?

>>5098556
It's a story about how evil is ingrained and embedded into all the systems of society, how oppression and prejudice are irrevocably woven into the fabric of the world, how nothing can truly be extricated from the web (which bleeds into more postmodern stuff, i.e. the 'flat disc' conversation), and about how good and evil can coexist and war within society in general and the lead characters in particular.

True Detective has *so much* going on. It's a straight-up work of genius.

>>5098556
predictability is the most bullshit critque

>>5098556
I think I agree with everything this fellow said.

I still loved the show, though

Madoka also actually uses its medium effectively, which is not something you can say about lots of shows, even those with good writing.

>>5098542
I liked the mood, the characters, and also Rust's allusions to philosophy in the first few episodes. The problem is that it strongly implies that the philosophy is somehow relevant, but it isn't. I probably dislike it because I'm pretty edgy myself, and I felt validated by Rust being so cool, but now he turned all 'phony' and 'muggle', and I feel pissed off by the series for catering to non-robots. Ugh, being drunk really eats away my pugnaciousness on /lit/ (i really do hope that's a word).

>>5098577
>postmodern stuff, i.e. the 'flat disc'

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAH. You might want to google your shit before looking like an idiot.

>>5098618
>catering to non-robots
If it's "catering" to ninety-nine percent of the population, it's not fucking catering faggot.

Even if robots were fifty percent of the population, nobody would make shows catering to you because none of you have any fucking money

>>5098299
hmm, while I agree that Braking Bad can easily be viewed as Walt's desire to live up to traditional gender roles/masculine ideals, I still think that this does not disqualify it from being a very well written/acted/shot show. why would wrapping morality around gender roles be high-school tier? I think it's an interesting topic. sure, there are ways of dealing with it more intelligently than breaking bad, but I still think it's a decent and very entertaining commentary... not to mention the show's value in other less philosophical realms.

I'm curious to see why fast&furious is in your top 10. I think it will give us a better understanding of your scale of values (not kidding, nor being snarky; honest question).

>>5098618
>but it isn't

It really, really is, though. The whole show is about the interplay of dualities, which is practically all Rust talks about. The Zapffe essay 'The Last Messiah' is particularly relevant, especially to the antler imagery.

>>5098624
What's the problem, friend? I personally read the 'flat circle' theory as partially a reference to the flat circles that are DVDs and Blu-Rays, the implication being that Rust is catching at the fringes of the truth: that he's a fictional character, forced to go through the same journey over and over for the benefit of unseen observers. What did you think I was saying?

>>5098645
I like the flat circle concept but I think it has more to do with the fact that the light vs. dark story is eternal throughout human history

>>5098645
>>5098650
Nietzschean eternal recurrence, anyone?

>>5098650
There's plenty of room for both interpretations. True Detective has a lot more layers than most of its viewers think.

>>5098655
There's a lot of Nietzsche in True Detective, though it seems to have gone via the Nietzche -> Zapffe -> Ligotti -> Pizzolatto route rather than being direct. For me, True Detective's brilliance has much less to do with the ideas themselves than with the way the narrative works them right into the bones of the show.

>>5098397
give us your top 5

I'm impressed that lit is actually talking about true detective in critical terms now and not just railing on it cus it's popular and stars a frat boy that actually has acting chops. It's times like these that give me a glimmer of hope for the board.

>>5098691
all boards are shit but /lit/ is definitely one of the best.

>>5098694
/lit/ is at its best when you have a discussion between people with passionate, sincere, and generally positive takes on whatever is being discussed.

Which is incredibly rare, given the sheer number of people who want to argue in bad faith and call everything shit.

>>5098662
>For me, True Detective's brilliance has much less to do with the ideas themselves than with the way the narrative works them right into the bones of the show.

You'd better elucidate, otherwise that comes off as you just elevating the ideas themselves masked as 2deep4u because it's such a vague remark.

>>5098656
>True Detective has a lot more layers than most of its viewers think.
Usually when something is vague enough to allow both/multiple interpretations, there really isn't any depth to begin with. I'm not saying the whole show was the pleb shit the majority of 4channers want to think it was but that scene in particular was one which you could have just cut and nothing of value would have been lost.

>>5098680
1.) The Sopranos
2.) The Wire
3.) Mad Men
4.) Curb Your Enthusiasm
5.) Seinfeld

Honorable Mention: Deadwood

>>5098777
I'd need to go through the series again with the texts referenced on hand, but just look at the way the series structures itself as a single filament of a vaster truth, how so much is deliberately left unaddressed and unexplored because total understanding and complete victory are both impossibilities in True Detective's world.

>>5098778
You'd lose nothing of *plot* importance, but you'd be cutting out important mood, character, and theme. I don't agree that the scene is vague, though; I just think it has meaning both on the surface and on several layers behind that.

>>5098778

>Usually when something is vague enough to allow both/multiple interpretations, there really isn't any depth to begin with.

I don't understand how anyone could bring themselves to say something this laughably naive earnestly.

>>5098815
Because real depth stems from stating something factual that differs from common sense intuitions in a lucid manner. If you write a sentence that allows for a n amount of interpretations, you don't have depth but area.

I made an image, I hope it's helpful.

>>5098831

>Because real depth stems from stating something factual -

This post of yours starts off with you qualifying what does and doesn't constitute "real depth" in the purview of another.

What you are doing here is a necessarily faulted premise.

I was tempted to 4/10 this, but I have a sneaking suspicion that you genuinely are this naive.

>>5098831
The whole flat disc thing was not supposed to be deep. It was pseudo-intellectual because Rust's character is pseudo-intellectual.

Am I the only one that understood this?

>>5098813
>how so much is deliberately left unaddressed and unexplored because total understanding and complete victory are both impossibilities in True Detective's world.

Such as... ? What is left unaddressed/unexplored? And how does this imply lack of total understanding and no complete victories in the world?

The latter point isn't even really a unique thing to TD. "War never changes" rings a bell that harkens how long that ideal has been around.

I do hope some elucidation does, eventually, come through; otherwise, I'm sticking by it being a ho-hum, by-the-numbers procedural trumped up with lipstick.

>>5097629
Would be patrician if it wasn't for the throwaway anime writing. The plot and characters are engaging, and visuals sublime.

>>5098812
Mad men is fun, but imo it should by no means be up there with the wire/sopranos.
And curb? c'mon man. I can see how you would put seinfeld there though, as a pioneering work.

>>5098879

maybe not with the wire, but it's on the level of sopranos

people try very hard to forget just how much filler was in the sopranos toward the end

Sopranos&Six Feet Under

Sopranos is perfect, SFU has flaws but they don't have a lot of impact on the quality of the show.

The Wire (i fucking LOVE Wire) is like that really inspirational book that isn't really intellectual though and can be appreciated by everyone.

>>5098863
Well, the entire ending, for starters. Remember that long conversation about how they only cut off one head of Typhon, how there are huge and ominous forces moving overhead which no individual humans can possibly influence? I suspect your mind is made up, though, so I won't pursue it any further.

>>5098861
I don't think you understood much at all, to be honest.

>>5098892

>Wire) is like that really inspirational book that isn't really intellectual

It's by far the most intellectually stimulating show ITT. It's an examination of institutions on the scope of fucking Tolstoy. I don't know what you're expecting of television here.

>>5098892
>The Wire (i fucking LOVE Wire) is like that really inspirational book that isn't really intellectual though and can be appreciated by everyone.

Jesus Christ

>>5098901
> It's an examination of institutions on the scope of fucking Tolstoy

Why do you make me post this gif in the context of The Wire

>>5098898
>I don't think you understood much at all, to be honest.
Enlighten me

I think Utena is the finest anime can offer. Not only is it successful on a level of entertainment with great visuals, neat duels, and a stellar soundtrack, it just is very unique. Unique in ways of character and story development, unique in atmosphere, unique in writing. It feels minimalist and maximalist at the same time. The best way to describe it would be Sailor Moon without the bad parts, I think. Also, the symbology is simply great, certainly the best of the medium.

>>5098907
>Am I the only one that understood this?
>not supposed to be deep
>pseudo-intellectual

Enlighten you? I lack that power, friend. Find it within yourself to truly engage with the text, and I'm sure great things will come to you.

>>5098898
>Remember that long conversation about how they only cut off one head of Typhon, how there are huge and ominous forces moving overhead which no individual humans can possibly influence?

That's still not unique to True Detective and that insight doesn't make it anymore special.

Again, this comes off as people masturbating to shallow philosophical insights in a just-as-shallow show.

>>5098922
I am not that anon but, I think he came to that conclusion because of what Cohle said at the end,how he got simpler through the show until the end.

>>5098906

>all this desperate to impress forced nonchalance

No one cares about you wanting to seem indifferent all the time, cupcake. Save the hipster victories for /mu/.

>>5098924
It saddens me that you feel that way, because it seems to me that you're closing yourself off from great art. I hope you'll find a way to appreciate it some day.

>>5098906
That's what the show is about you dickwit. Did you think it was about cool gangsters and police swag?

>>5098940
indifferent? What are you even talking about, it's just wrong to say that The Wire is /lit/-tier. It's filled with cliches, stock tv show plots (Especially Season 5) and delves too much into unrealistic territorry

>>5098950
You could even say that it goes beyond that if you look at Season 2. Maybe i'm just defining ''/lit/-tier'' differently.

PoMo tv shows:
Community
Arrested Development
Harvey Birdman: Attorney at Law
Futurama
The Simpsons
Space Dandy

>>5098922
Oh he's just another raging asshole.

I hoped you might have had something interesting to say. Disappointing :/

>>5099007
I don't mean to be an asshole. I just think you're coming from such a negative perspective that it's not a matter of me enlightening you; it's a matter of you enlightening yourself.

King Of The Hill is GOAT.

>>5098558

eh, i loved the s2 finale, no one's actions made any goddamn sense but i don't care, the whole show is basically a dream anyways

>>5099067
i think king of the hill is pretty good, but that was sorta painful to read, like, yeah, they're sorta right, but the moral ambiguity in king of the hill is a little more complicated than "no group is always right", you have to bring class into it to even begin to read that show adequately

>>5099067
>>5099436
King of the Hill first and foremost is about Texas and what it means to be a Texan today. As it tells that story, to describes moral ambiguity, class, and politics in some of the best satire you will experience, but it is told from a Texan's point of view. I think that's one of the reasons it's not as popular despite being the GOAT tv cartoons.

>>5098879
Curb is cleverer and more funny than Seinfeld ever was.

>>5097622
mfw discussion of tv on /lit/ is infinitely better than on /tv/. hold me /v/

>>5099669
and it's still fucking shit

>>5098299
>well, i don't really see how i'm supposed to show that a show doesn't say anything interesting with a constructive argument
Then why even mention that you don't like the show? Fucking sperglords.

>>5098337
>1)fucking hate people's stupid ass needs to validate their preferences with /lit/
Isn't that exactly what you're doing by commenting in this thread?

Orange is the new black is really good

>>5098123
>The Man From U.N.C.L.E
Give this anon a gold star.

>>5097704
I'm watching Six Feet Under. First season was good then it just .. goes to shit. No character is likable.. So, you know; An Alan Ball show.

>>5100225
>No character is likable.
the fuck are you on.
>Claire will never be your girlfriend

>>5100188
Orange is like Doctor Who for me. I'm sure I'd like it if I watched it, but fuck do I want to punch its fans

Now, how is Game Center CX /lit/?

House Fucking M.D.

>>5100417
Srs, House M.D. has so shaped television to come after it, it's actually unreal. It's the LOTR of television shows (only not gay).

>>5100417
>>5100420

>plebs freaking out over a procedural show

Just leave.