/lit/ - Literature

>>5093335

wow that's really based. Socrates the best

>>5093335

Socrates said he didn't know what was beyond death, and that he could never find what he did not know to be terrible. He ventured ideas of what death might be: eternal darkness, and the underworld, and both of those seemed pleasant to him, but ultimately he said he could not be sure.

>>5093351

didn't he believe in reincarnation?

I don't think so

I don't get it. Da Vinci's quote about learning how to die is better.

>>5093360
I doubt it. Plato used him as a puppet a lot, but we are to take the Apology as a sound indication, Socrates attributed the source of his own wisdom as not thinking he knew things which he couldn't ("Can you PROVE the gods think murder is unjust, Euthyphro?"), and defended himself by saying he never preached any doctrine, but only asked questions.

So it's a question of whether you mean Socrates or Plato, and yes, there is a difference in thought, even if it's muddied.

>>5093378
>I don't get it.

The context is : " Men are disturbed, not by things, but by the principles and notions which they form concerning things. Death, for instance, is not terrible, else it would have appeared so to Socrates. But the terror consists in our notion of death that it is terrible."

>>5093335

"When one removes the paradox from a thinker one is left with a professor."

- Kierkegaard

“Today I escaped anxiety. Or no, I discarded it, because it was within me, in my own perceptions — not outside.” — Marcus Aurelius

>>5093405

>hey guys, did you know, metaphors aren't, like, literal?

So deep.

>>5093351
No, no you stupid cunt, did you even read the Phaedo?

>>5093407

Thanks it is deep

>>5093408
Yes, and I would not say it relates to anything Socrates ever said. Or if it does, then Socrates took a massive personal turn right at the end.

"people are not machines but in every opportunity where they are allowed to behave like machines, they will so behave."

-Ludwig von Bertalanffy

>>5093414

>mfw the Clouds is the only accurate depiction of Socrates

>>5093417
lel

>>5093414

>>5093423
Unless his defense that he never propounded a doctrine but only questioned, is a lie, and that his entire conception of wisdom, is a lie; or that he took a U-turn suddenly--he even claimed in court that to claim to know the nature of death would be contrary to his philosophy.

>>5093428
The point is is that you believe what ever Socrates said in the Apology is actually what Socrates thought but what ever he said in the Phaedo is not what he thought. Either way, we don't know what he actually thought. It could just be Plato's opinions and Plato just using dialectic, elenchus and achieving aporia.

>>5093407

>>5093431
It's commonly presumed that Plato's earliest dialogues reflect Socrates to some extent, and indeed they are consistent with the trial.

>>5093449
>It's commonly presumed

>>5093449
Plato was not to be trusted as a source about Socrates. Since that time, more evidence has been brought to light supporting the theory that the Apology is not a historical account but a philosophical work, and so are his other dialogues. They are all philosophical works.

>>5093449
You shit post here as much as you shit post on /pol/

>>5093335
Socrates is a dick and probably wanted to troll people with the devils in the inferno.

>>5093457
I'm not saying it's an "historical account" (although the account of the trial roughly corresponds with Xenephon's), simply that it was written to reflect Socrates' philosophy and not Plato's.

>>5093471

Plato wouldn't lie about Socrates specially when people around him also knew Socrates and were his students/friends/neighbors

Also Plato was moral as fuck, he wouldn't just make up bullshit about his teacher. It's Plato, not Paul the Apostle...

>>5093471
Elaborating on this: even if you consider ALL of the dialogues to be purely a reflection of Plato, he started writing them shortly after Socrates' death, which meant he was still a fanboy and probably trying hard to emulate Socrates early on. I imagine it took him a while to develop his own way of thinking.

>>5093471
But you don't understand what I'm saying. There is no way you can say it reflected his philosophy or not. It was written by Plato and there are no records of Socrates; his own philosophical works.

>>5093490
>There is no way you can say it reflected his philosophy or not. It was written by Plato and there are no records of Socrates; his own philosophical works.

refer >>5093486

>>5093486
Plato definitely made up shit and attributed it to Socrates, which was normal for the time (see all the texts attributed to Hippocrates). I should also point out that Xenephon's Apology differs from Plato's in several key aspects, so someone was making shit up, even if the arguments followed were roughly the same. And, finally, there is no way to reconcile Socrates' creation of doctrines in later works with his defense in the Apology.

>>5093497
>Plato wouldn't lie about Socrates
Good argument bro. It doesn't matter when it's a philosophical work.

>>5093500
>>5093497
>>5093486
Best you two start doing some research

>>5093500
>Plato definitely made up shit and attributed it to Socrates

citation required, where are your documents proving this?

>>5093490
We can't say for certain. We know Socrates existed and Plato was a student very attached to him and an admirer of his who started writing shortly after Socrates died. It's not significantly substantiated, but it's a fair claim to say that Plato was interested in writing about Socrates' thinking in the beginning, rather than just Socrates as a character.

>>5093392
Kierkegaard is the only decent thinker/writer of the modern age. Everybody else is a shill for the great machine.

Socrates was a terrorist, that's why they killed him.

>>5093514
>It's not significantly substantiated
It's not substantiated at all because only one of the philosophers actually wrote.
>it's a fair claim to say that Plato was interested in writing about Socrates' thinking
No it's not a fair claim, because it's not even substantiated. See above. Gtfo.

>>5093509
The incompatibility of the court defense with the later dialogues.

>>5093487
I don't think you understand m8. It doesn't matter what Socrates thought or what Plato thought in distinction to Socrates, because Socrates didn't have any thoughts, he had a method of thinking. Plato reveals the method so it doesn't really matter what individual thoughts come out of the method, they are only coinicidental.

>>5093520
It's not substantiated that the Dialogues we have now reflect the ones Plato actually wrote.

>>5093521

how do you figure that means anything? Every philosopher contradicts himself one way or another

>>5093524
Socrates' method of thinking isn't about finding what is knowable, though, it is about finding out what you don't know; according to early Socrates, wisdom is being aware of what you do not know. Only later does it become a tool for actually discovering truth.

>>5093526
Sorry I can't keep arguing with idiots. I'm telling you Socrates didn't write anything, and now you're telling me that Plato's dialogues are not even proven to be his. Fuck this.

>>5093529
Not that significantly. Socrates' narrative is that he was simply looking for someone wiser than he was.

>>5093414
>Yes, and I would not say it relates to anything Socrates ever said. Or if it does, then Socrates took a massive personal turn right at the end.

For fucks sake

>>5093514
>Doesn't know of the Socratic problem

>>5093524
If Socrates did have a thought it was "Ignorance". Everything else was just a path to ignorance.

Plato was different than Socrates though, and I think there are two people in the dialogues - Plato & Socrates. I do think that Plato betrays his master in the sense that he tries to have Ideas, whereas Socrates never tried to have Ideas. Socrates survives in Plato nonetheless, even if it is despite Plato. Everything that looks like knowledge or doctrine or idea in the dialogues belongs to Plato.

>>5093521
Could that perhaps be because other people are retelling those dialogues, and therefore hold another vernacular?

>>5093469
I know this is supposed to be "le fedora meme", but I found it clever - in the sense of "slightly clever the first time you hear it, then silly", but still...

>>5093381
>a lot
>but [if] we are

God damn, you suck at writing.

Also, your analysis of Plato is trite.

"You can do anything, if you believe".

Uhm ... I don't think treating socrates as a tabula rasa superior chosen alien ubermensch does much good, unless you're terry gilliam' in which case i will not interfere with your cashcow.

>>5093335

I don't know the context for that, but I really like it if it's drily ironic and think it's stupid if sincere.

>>5093895
Nietzsche plz go

>>5093389
>"Men are disturbed, not by things, but by spooks and ghosts which they form concerning things."

I think we've found the Greek Stirner.

>>5095629

Can't remember who but a greek philosopher spoke of having "fixed ideas" and how they were basically like spooks.

Stirner wasn't saying anything new, actually most philosophers haven't said anything new since the Greeks or the Eastern Mystics

>>5093415
I really like this one. Very relevant to our times.

>>5095688
If you could remember the name of that philosopher, I'd greatly appreciate it.

>>5095712

not that guy, but my guess would be Pyrrho/neo-Pyrrhonian types like Sextus Empiricus or else last Academic types like Archesilaus

>>5095723

>last

late*

>>5095723
Much appreciated, mate.

>>5093392

>>5095629
>Epictetus
>a "Greek Stirner"

Do you guys even know how to read? Socrates covers his face in the Phaedo to hide the fact he was frightened. Most of the posts that go, more or less, "You can't have knowledge of what's after death therefore you ought not be afraid" mistake deducting from negative premises for knowledge.

>>5095758
Incidentally, my name's Walter. Filename freaked me out for a moment. I'm interested in philosophers who could have similar ideas to Stirner. I guess I'll read Epictetus.

>>5095766
>Incidentally
It's not incidental, Walter.

Please stop watching those... videos where people can see you.

>>5095629
The Greek Stirner is Diogenes

Cynic concepts of Tuphos and the greek Nomos = Spooks

Basically he thought all social conventions and many common ideas were idiotic and held back the individual from eudaimonia, and he acted against them.

Fuck, anyone has that pic of Diogenes with Stirner's head?

>>5095971
>The Greek Stirner is Diogenes

Diogenes was never that long-winded, theoretical or obtuse....

>>5095991
She looks extremely Jewish.

>>5096137

for you

>>5096137
Or Russian?

>>5096156
Same thing, amirite?

>>5096194
Yes and no and who gives a shit?

>>5093335
“But the height of audacity in serving up pure nonsense, in stringing together senseless and extravagant mazes of words, such as had previously been known only in madhouses, was finally reached in Hegel, and became the instrument of the most barefaced general mystification that has ever taken place, with a result which will appear fabulous to posterity, and will remain as a monument to German stupidity.”

>>5093335
>quotes about death from people who believe that they are actually immortal ghosts piloting suits of meat

The only people who have ever had anything meaningful to say about death are those who understand that death is not an illusion.

>>5098825
*tips fedora*

>>5098825
>not believing in ghosts
>not believing in NDEs
>not believing that we're going to live forever
>not believing the garden of eden was in jackson county missouri
>>>/sci/

>no King Solomon quotes
Wut

>I returned, and saw under the sun, that the race is not to the swift, nor the battle to the strong, neither yet bread to the wise, nor yet riches to men of understanding, nor yet favour to men of skill; but time and chance happeneth to them all.

Ecclesiastes 9:11

>>5093335
>else it would have appeared so to Socrates

What does that pretentious gobbledigook even mean

>>5096222
Schop a shit

>>5098825
>Not piloting a suit of meat

Psyche is the ancient greek word for soul. Do you know how we use it now? Do you ever wonder why?

>>5096156
The Khazars weren't Jews. At the most some of the nobility converted to Judaism but there was never a widespread Jewish conversion.

>>5095971
>The Greek Stirner is Diogenes
>Understanding philosophy this poorly
>Implying it wouldn't be said "The German Diogenes is Stirner"
>Implying that still isn't incorrect
>Thinking Eudaimonia and Egoism are compatible

Stirnerfag pls go

>>5093351
Socrates said it was either a continuation of this life or an eternal dreamless sleep. Therefore, it's nothing to fear. I don't recall anything about the underworld.

>>5096222

based schoppyboi?

>>5099136
>What does that pretentious gobbledigook even mean

It means that if death was terrible then Socrates would've taken Crito's offer and broken out of jail to escape his sentence. But he didn't.

Socrates was the wisest there ever was and he faced death with ease, it obviously means death is not something we should fear.

>>5099288
Oh wow, Socrates didn't go out escaping like a bitch. But because people idol worship the fag it means that death doesn't suck. Give me a brake you dick riders.

>>5099194
I want to know why. What is soul? Is it not just the train of thoughts and memories, a.k.a. the psyche?