/lit/ - Literature

We've been getting this thread once a day since summer started, enough already.

I've never even read GoT but just looking at Martin i think I'd hate his writing

>>5074800 oh did not realize that.

On is a Catholic the other is an atheist feminist

So I quite liked the GoT TV series. Are the books worth reading or is the TV series a sort of 'best of' that cuts out a lot of shit?

>>5074799
Robert Jordan/Brandon Sanderson. Just skip the 8th book (you can skip the 5th book in GoT and be fine too)

>>5074830
Definitely read the books. They are better than the show.

>>5074830
The books aren't always better than the film/show but in this case they really fucking are

Is it a coincidence that both have first names beginning with a 'j' sound and two middle names beginning with 'R'?

>>5074805
>really shitty comment

>>5074805
>inb4 fat man shitting
>inb4 Daneayrihdishihs Dragon mother shitting

>>5074891
You've uncovered the grandest literary conspiracy this side of the material plane.

I will shortly be dispatching the lizard assassin's to your home.

>>5074846
>>5074882
I think the show is better. Especially now that we're getting into the 4th/5th book plot slump, the show is doing a pretty good job revising certain plotlines to make them not totally fucking directionless and pointless.

>>5074830
>"She was sopping wet when he entered her. “Damn you,” she said. “Damn you damn you damn you.” He sucked her nipples till she cried out half in pain and half in pleasure. Her cunt became the world."

>>5074805
He's better than tolkien though

>>5074948
neckbeard

>"Sunset found her squatting in the grass, groaning. Every stool was looser than the one before, and smelled fouler. By the time the moon came up she was shitting brown water.The more she drank, the more she shat, but the more she shat, the thirstier she grew, and her thirst sent her crawling to the stream to suck up more water."

>>5074952
>no you

>>5074953
Problem?

>>5074799
>He found a line and pulled on it, fighting toward the hatch to get himself below out of the storm, but a gust of wind knocked his feet from under him and a second slammed him into the rail and there he clung. Rain lashed at his face, blinding him. His mouth was full of blood again. The ship groaned and growled beneath him like a constipated fat man straining to shit.

both write escapist fantasy. however Tolkien is only known for LotR so imma go with Martin

THERE ARE OTHER FANTASY WRITERS THAN THESE TWO, WHY THE FUCK ARE YOU PEOPLE SO OBSESSED WITH COMPARING THEM, GOD I FUCKING HATE YOU PEOPLE SO MUCH

>>5074952
Come on. Tolkien really couldn't write characters for shit

>>5074946

>leaving out the Tysha reveal
>leaving out Jaime's and Tyrion's fight
>creating "ironborn are afraid of dogs" meme

D&D are hacks, breh.

>>5075007
Wait that's fucking hysterical. Is that actually in the books?

Oh my god, I can imagine him writing that and smiling to himself, or angrily typing it out depending on how long it had been since he was last constipated

>>5075043
shouldn't you be shitposting on /tv/ right now?

Who is the best current fantasy author and why is it R.A. Salvatore?

>inb4 he sucks because he's popular

Not really a fan of fantasy but Martin writes better characters while Tolkien created a better world. Tolkien also has the shittiest fanbase.

>>5075211

I'll never forgive Salvatore for killing Chewbacca.

>>5075528
>Tolkien has the shittiest fanbase.
This is 100% true and I would know because I am a massive Tolkien faggot.

>>5075528
Tolkien still has a fanbase?

>>5074830
Books are better than the shows but by a slim margin. Honestly the shows did do some good rewrites to the books, such as Arya being cup bearer to Tywin, but you just get a much better feel for the characters in the books.

>>5074953
>>5074947
Uh oh these two excerpts just discredited the entire series. Darn /lit/ you win again

>>5075010
I would definitely not want to "escape" into ASOIAF's realm. I haven't a clue why people put the escapism umbrella over all fiction.

>>5074830
Watching the show is like reading the books except you don't have to sit through the florrid prose.

Several characters are presented in a more interesting way in the books than the show, however. The plot of the shows is beginning to diverge significantly from the books.

>>5075738

If you think Martin's prose is florid, you may need to read more -- and by "more," I mean "more than not at all."

Martin may spend too much time describing scenery and heraldry, but he most certainly is not florid in doing so.

>>5074947
>>5074953

That's right /lit/ the book series that's over 6,000 pages long has those two excepts in them. Amazing! :^)

>>5075211

He sucks because he sucks, actually.

>>5075211
>Best current fantasy author
>Not Bakker

Unholy consort never
Just kill me now

>>5076043
>Unholy consort never
Wasn't it scheduled for this august?

>>5074805
You're totally right.

Since we're on topic of epic fantasy:
where can I download an ebook version of the Silmarillion that doesn't have all the special symbols fucked up? I've sifted through many different torrents and download sites and every single one of them has e.g. Ilúvatar written as Il?vatar.

Tolkien is approximately a million times better

Robin Hobb

"Sunset found her squatting in the grass, groaning. Every stool was looser than the one before, and smelled fouler. By the time the moon came up she was shitting brown water. The more she drank, the more she shat, but the more she shat, the thirstier she grew, and her thirst sent her crawling to the stream to suck up more water."

~ George R.R. Martin

Martin was a total cutie pie when he was younger.

>>5076890
nvm I found it ;)
http://gen.lib.rus.ec/book/index.php?md5=3A46CFBC83F8318E945A0FD1B0D36642

I like Scott Lynch and the Gentleman Bastards are a refreshing change of pace from Tolkien and other fantasy works that take inspiration from Tolkien.

Martin.

>>5077053
He looks eternally 45

>>5077061

:)

>>5074799
Tolkien Survived the horrors of world war 1, the hobbits eat so many meals because Tolkien was so malnourished the nurses forced him to eat all the time. Martin is a fat fadora wearing peice of shit.


SHHHHHHHHHHhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh the truth is hard, it's ok..... shhhhhh

>R.R v. R.R.

ITT: autism

>>5077394
I always like how its the really specific number 4,164 and then says it's just approximate

>>5077044
who is Sunset?

>>5074799
I prefer reading GRRM but I admire Tolkien more.
But Robin Hobb and Terry Pratchett are my two favorite fantasy writers, especially Pratchett.

>>5074830
Until season 3, the show held up to the books pretty well. They cut some content but you still felt like you were following the same story, and the acting is good so whatever.
But season 4 shat all over the books:
>nice secondary characters are cut
>fanfiction-tier filler is added (I honnestly cringed during the whole Grey Worm x Missandei subplot)
>some awesome scenes are completely butchered, such as the fight between Oberyn and Gregor http://mccomseycomix.wordpress.com/2013/06/26/the-red-viper-vs-the-mountain-that-rides-a-12-page-comic/
>character development is non existent, especially in Jaime and Tyrion's case
>Tyrion in particular, while a very grey character in the books, has been transformed into a random hero here

All in all, I would now tell you to read the books, and prepare yourself to never enjoy the show anymore.
The books are filled with details, interesting subplots, great secondary characters etc. The show has cut all that stuff.

>>5075528
>>5075638
Tolkien has both the greatest and the shittiest fanbase.
Like, no average fantasy fan is into Tolkien. Only 13 year old girls who love muh Arwen and muh Aragorn after watching the movies or fucking scholars that know everything about linguistics and norse mythology.

>>5074799
>Who do you prefer more ?

Completely ignoring their 'literary' output (which is not what OP is after though it is implied from the nature of this board), as people Tolkien >>> Martin.

Tolkiens life and career completely blows Martins out of the water, is far more interesting, colourful, and admirable.

>>5075763
What about when he describes meals?
That fucking chapter with Tyrion and Illyrio eating almost made me faint.

More seriously, Martin's writing is actually very fluid. Sometimes he takes pauses to describe a meal or some random piece of heraldry, but when he wants to get you hooked, you can be sure you're not dropping the books for a few hours.

>>5075007
>like a constipated fat man straining to shit.

He draws these comparisons from personal experience doesn't he?

Do you think he comes up with these things whilst on the toilet or he recalls his own times on the toilet whilst writing hence the numerous references in his work?

I like Martin more because every conflict is not solved by either pure luck or eagles swooping down to save the day.

>>5078091
+ 4chan has spoiled pretty much everything so there is little fun left for me in GoT

>>5074799
George R.R. is the 50 shades of grey to Tolkien's Twilight

>>5074799

Tolkien is superior in every way to GURRM and I actually enjoy GURRM's stuff.

Anyone who actually thinks GRRM is better than Tolkien is either a fa/tv/agina or an incredible pleb.

>>5078173
But tolkien just isn't a writer. His characters are paper thin and he just doesn't have a feel for novels. I couldn't even tell you which dwarves died at the end of the hobbit because he glossed over it so quickly because he can't even write one decent dwarf let only fucking seven of them

>>5077394

This is dumb. How can I know the presumably bad from the good unless I read it? Also, define bad.

>>5078116
>Anonymous 06/30/14(Mon)13:03:07 No.5078116▶

>What about when he describes meals?
>That fucking chapter with Tyrion and Illyrio >eating almost made me faint.

Lengthy, perhaps. Dull, perhaps. But not florid: "(of language) using unusual words or complicated rhetorical constructions."

I agree, though, that his prose, while rather unimaginative, is usually well-written and pleasurable to read.

>>5079067

But Tolkien was a Christfag, which invalidates all of that.

>>5074799
>Posting in summer-tier thread
>Do you prefer the man that invented the genre or this neckbeard who writes pulp novels?

For a board the thinks Martin's work is pleb tier, you sure do discuss his work often, why is that?

>>5074799
Game of Thrones will be forgotten in 30 years, Tolkien will remain, right next to Victor Hugo and all the other classics

A Song of Ice and Fire is one of the greatest stories ever told, but I will concede that this is mostly because of the sheer size. The characters are awesome, some plot points and minor world details are interesting, but these would be simply fine without appearing in an epic 8000 pages long. The series' strength is in the sum if its parts, which is quite an impressive sum.

Martin's prose is nothing to do backflips over, however. He writes anywhere from "okay" to "cringe-inducing." And in the end, talking about ASOIAF as an art object isn't that fun. It doesn't really say or mean a whole lot more than is readily apparent. Nearly any time Ive ever discussed the series with friends it's been about story arcs and lore. Never about aesthetics, cultural context, or philosophy. But I kind of think that's the point.

>>5074947
>her cunt became the world
I now get why this is posted
Jesus Christ my sides

>>5081241
It sounds like you're equating book length to quality.

>>5075038
His intent from the beginning of writing his books was to create a world and a mythos. The characters were secondary to that.

>>5081241
can't tell if troll or just stupid
8000 pages is not actually impressive

I mean 3 trilogies is 9 books.... tonnes of modern fantasy writers put down three trilogies in the same world

the book of the fallen is 10 books at 11000+ pages and its bulk action not like martins soap opera, wheel of time is probably a similar length

the riftwar saga is some 30+ books.... its got to be pushing 20,000 25,000

all these martin fags haven't fucking read anything

GRRM.

Tolkien has better prose. Probably a better world builder too (even if I don't like his world, but its so extensive and so much attention to detail).

Tolkien just misses actual characters which George has. The political scheming also takes me on his side and these combined I can enjoy it more than Tolkien and thus he is a better author overall. Tolkien had just fucking irrelevant characters that just existed and nothing esle.

>>5077394
Does anyone have the the GRRM version of this picture?

>>5081241
>Nearly any time I've ever discussed the series with friends it's been about story arcs and lore. Never about [...], cultural context, or philosophy.
>one of the greatest stories ever told

Speaking of Tolkien, is his translation of Beowulf any good?

People saying that Tolkien never wrote nuanced characters or decent politics is a fucking retard, and this is coming from someone who only watched the movies and read the wiki when having nothing better to do.

>>5081500
He didn't. Deal with it

>>5079067
>Implying Silmarillion is finished

I like how the popularity of ASoI&F has brought out such insecure Tolkeintards and at the same time it reveals that Tolkein wasn't exactly the shit either.

No one cares about the details of Tolkein's life. Did he write good works or not? That's the only qualification for being a good writer. It doesn't matter that Tolkein fought in WWI and Martin didn't (as if Tolkein had a choice or even wanted to do it in the first place). It doesn't matter that he translated Beowulf (he's not the only one to do it and his translation isn't the widely used version, is it).

Tolkeintards.

>>5074948
Tolkien's better with both prose and worldbuilding. I also happen to prefer his characters. At least his books are readable, none of that pulpy clumsy prose to worry about

>>5081503
If you can't tell that he did even after reading the books yourself I have no idea what the fuck you are doing here.

>>5081601
Why are you so defensive?

>>5079055
I think Gollum is the best counterpoint I can think of, off the top of my head that is.

I can't stand bursting into song every five seconds and I don't like fantasy worldbuilding.

GRRM wins because his worldbuilding is primarily human in nature.

>>5082008
>GRRM wins because his worldbuilding is primarily human in nature.
How?
I get that it's more down to earth but all in all I find it to be meh when it's not outright bad.

>>5081677
ASOIAF are some of the most readable books around today. Say what you will about them but nobody gets halfway through them then gives up because they're too difficult. Not saying that's necessarily a good thing but there's no way that you can suggest tolkien is more readable.

>>5081601

We just went over this same tired criticism of Tolkien about two weeks ago.

Here's the archived thread for you Martin fags.

>>/lit/thread/S5002882#p5004137

Fucking rekt.

If you can't see why Tolkien is superior in every way to Martin you don't belong on this board.

Tolkien has his problems but as far as pure literary merit, Tolkien is head and shoulders above Martin.

Why do I constantly hear the same tired argument about Tolkien re: NO CHARACTERS NO POLITICS LEL TOLKIEN A SHIT.

This is simply not true. Literally every character has remarkable nuance. The reason many people call it weak characterization is simply due to its subtlety, which actually makes it MORE realistic/gritty/modernistic than Martin! People in real life don't go around doing obvious things to illustrate their character as in Martin. We perceive the character of another by what others say of them, by the slight undertones in their speech that tell us who they are. Great fiction like Tolkien's conveys this.

A fantastic example of Tolkien's subtle characterization is Boromir, particularly the scene in which he betrays Frodo. If you can read that section and still come away saying, "herp a derp Tolkien ain't got the characterizations, he's just paper thin prose lol mythology," then there is absolutely no hope for you.

Part of the issue here is with people mistaking style for substance. Education and modern culture has somehow taught people that sophistication and substance is embedded ONLY in a specific style--ironic, circumspect, witty, knowing, etc. Thus, when confronted with a different style such as a mythological style, the reader claims the book lacks substance and is simply not as good as gritty modernist works--this is NOT true. A great example in film is The Matrix. Some people simply can't get past the stylistic quirks of the action sequences, music, visual style, and acting delivery. But these things aren't what's important--it's the substance.

>>5082608
Where's the rektage?

>>5074799
Honestly? I think Tolkien wrote all he could and he didn't it the right way and he did it just enough.

Martin is a fucking hack who probably sucks flacid cock

so I'd rather he write more and me continue to ignore it than for Tolkien to burn out

>>5081686
I'm not defensive. I keep seeing Tolkein fans being insecure that there is another popular fantasy author in the public conscious today. Threads like these flush them out.

They both write/wrote setting driven fantasy. I hate setting driven stories, how do people find enjoyment in memorizing a thousand imaginary place names and people? What's the point in a book that's just about imaginary history?

>>5083580
Oh.
To be fair, I'd feel insecure too if my favorite author was compared unfavorably on a daily basis to a shitty and overrated hack.

>>5074799
>2014
>Not loving and praising Sapkowski.

Anyone who complains about Martin writing about food obviously hasn't read Fellowship of the Ring lately, because the first third of that shit is NOTHING BUT PARTIES AND EATING AND GOING TO PUBS AND HAVING SECOND BREAKFAST.

JRR Tolkein cause I'm just so smart, ya know? I'm just a genius to be honest.

>>5084736

>THIS Ugly Motherfucker is Banging SUPER HOT chicks, and basically, YOU"RE FUCKING RETARDED
>>>Click here to Learn how!

>>5082649
Describe Boromir's personality

>>5084792
I lol'd really hard. Now seriously, I like it more than Tolkien and Martin. Just check it.

>>5081189
>implying

>>5082608
Are you implying these characters are at all deeper than GRRM's characters?

It's a known fact that Tolkien was renowned for his great world building while Martin is renowned for his great character development.

Fuck off, you faggot. There is really no need to compare the two anyway.

>>5084969
Lmao

>>5074799

Dunsany.

>>5075032
>beeing smart
>reading Fantasy

>>5081189
>the other classics
Titus Livius.

>>5084796
>describing personalities

>>5084969
>Martin is renowned for his great character development.

>>5084796
Hardheaded warrior is the heir to a dying kingdom when a potential king which threatens his status appears. He is proud by nature and resents this sudden heir, having long ago lost all hope in old lineages. Then, to make matters worse for the character, the ring appears, to him a clear way towards the restoration of Gondor. This too is denied to him, and so his desire to restore his people is corrupted by the ring, and he attempts to seize it. Finally he realises that his actions are wrong, sacrifices himself for the sake of two halflings, and tells Aragorn on his deathbed that he has hope now, finally accepting the heir. Fucker sounds three-dimensional, tragic, and better than anything GRRM has yet produced, at least to me.

>>5084969

Actually, yes, that's exactly what I'm saying. Where people get the idea that Martin is great at character development is beyond me. As was stated in the archived thread, circumstances change a lot in ASoIaF and they have many effects on the characters but, for the most part, most characters don't really change that much. Best examples are probably Samwell and Dany and the Dany change is fucking atrocious. Her storyline is shit and it's clear Martin has no fucking clue what he's doing with the actual plot. Two books of Dany sitting on ass whining about Daario problems and "MUH DRAGUNS".

>>5085943
>one's genital's becoming the entire terrestrial realm.
>not character development at it's pinnacle.
stay pleb

>>5086233
Damn I guess you're right.
>one's genitals becoming a piece of essential nautical equipment

Tolkein's biggest flaw was not knowing how to reel that shit in when he got to rambling. I don't give a fuck about all the irrelevant poetry or how Boromir helped to write it (he added the green gem and literally nothing else). I found myself unable to keep focus when he rambled on and got off topic.

Martin's biggest flaw is his arbitrary method of killing off characters he feels he becomes too attached to. While it's important for story and character growth to kill people, he doesn't do it properly, and there are characters going around resurrecting the dead anyway, so he does that shit with a safety net. Martin's story is interesting. Tolkein succeeded in setting the stage for literally everything fantasy related so I'll give him that, but in terms of writing ability I am on Martin's side.

>>5086305
>Pippin glanced in some wonder at the face now close beside his own, for the sound of that laugh had been gay and merry. Yet in the wizard's face he saw at first only lines of care and sorrow; though as he looked more intently he perceived that under all there was a great joy: a fountain of mirth enough to set a kingdom laughing, were it to gush forth
>

Sunset found her squatting in the grass, groaning. Every stool was looser than the one before, and smelled fouler. By the time the moon came up she was shitting brown water. The more she drank, the more she shat, but the more she shat, the thirstier she grew, and her thirst sent her crawling to the stream to suck up more water.

>>5086337
Better use the best example I can find of the book I like and the worst example of the book I hate and hope he doesn't catch on.

>>5086402
god dammit.

>>5086389
>implying that was even close to the best I or the worst I could find
>There were rockets like a flight of scintillating birds singing with sweet voices. There were green trees with trunks of dark smoke: their leaves opened like a whole spring unfolding in a moment, and their shining branches dropped glowing flowers down upon the astonished hobbits, disappearing with a sweet scent just before they touched their upturned faces.
>She was sopping wet when he entered her. “Damn you,” she said. “Damn you damn you damn you.” He sucked her nipples till she cried out half in pain and half in pleasure. Her cunt became the world.

>>5086425
Yeah but you know what? I'd rather read the book that contains the second extract than the one that contains the first. Tolkien may have been in danger of writing something equally bad if he actually broke out of timewasting songs and poems once in a while. I guess he probably stuck to the songs because it meant he could avoid having to write any dialogue betweeen characters. Did tolkien not invest any time in trying to learn how to write dialogue at all? Its actually farcical how wooden and uninspired the character interactions are. Unfortunately its not something you can get across in two cherrypicked extracts but I implore you to read the books to find ot what I'm getting at

>>5086612
I've read both books. Look I like ASOIF. I do. But It's terrible. It really is. Complain all you want about "wooden characters" but wooden characters does not equal a bad book. You know what makes a bad book? Bad writing and while I do enjoy ASOIF because I'm a fantasy buff there are definitely times where I have to roll my eyes or just chuckle at how awkward a sentence is. The thing is I could keep picking out extracts of eye rollers over and over again. All you can do is complain that Tolkien didn't have his characters say "cunt" enough or do forced awkward descriptions of sexual intercourse or defecation.

The songs are nice too. They add to the world that he built.

>>5087332
I didn't notice any overly pervasive bad writing whilst having read them. Sure, looking back at these quotes makes me chuckle and wonder how he got away with it but I never found it a real problem while reading them. I actually felt compelled to read the books and whilst I knew they weren't masterpieces they were at least well written enough to carry a story and keep kindled my curiosity at how the story would progress. I had to force myself through both lotr and later the hobbit under the impression that I would come away at least feeling that I would be able to take something away from having read them. But all I can do is question why you would ever push someone towards lotr instead of ASOIAF. At least people would come away from game of thrones having actually enjoyed themselves

>All you can do is complain that Tolkien didn't have his characters say "cunt" enough or do forced awkward descriptions of sexual intercourse or defecation
Now you're just being fatuous. Tolkien didn't have his characters do anything enough is my real problem. And yes, that wouldn't be a problem or make them bad books if that alone was their issue or there was some real redeeming quality to the books but I just didn't feel that there was.

>>5079667

>But Dostoevsky was a Christfag, which invalidates all of that.

>But St.Augustine was a Christfag, which invalidates all of that.

>But Aquinas was a Christfag, which invalidates all of that.

>But Kierkegaard was a Christfag, which invalidates all of that.

>But Milton was a Christfag which invalidates all of that.

fuck you

>>5081444

>>5085123
Holy shit. THIS. I think Tolkien is alright, but to truly enjoy classic fantasy, you have to read what inspired Tolkien to write. The King of Elfland's Daughter and The Worm Ouroboros is what instantly comes to mind.

At best LoTR is a great reading exercise

>>5088778
This has always been my main gripe with ASoIaF. How can you possibly write this much and still not have fully fleshed out the themes you established so early. Thousands and thousands of pages full of nothing but red herrings.

At best, George Martin is a decent world creator and his show is better than his books simply because the show is easier to digest and enjoy than reading 4.1k pages of nothing ever really happening.

>>5074799

Tolkien, why do people ask this stupid question?

>>5088778
This.

>>5081283
>>5075038
Everyone who says this never reads any deeper than surface level. His characters change and grow especially in the lord of the rings. Frodo for example learns how to pity Gollum and becomes wiser towards the end. Legolas is another good example as an elf he should by all rights be xenophobic or even isolationist but by the end he is traveling along with Gimli and seeing caves and Dwarven culture.

>>5082649
THANK YOU
>>5086036
"Farewell Aragorn! Go to Minas Tirith and save my people. I have failed."

;_;

>>5082649
I agree with you completely, but I still give the LoTR trilogy an 7/10.

Tolkien isn’t some special author, some ‘fantasy granddad’ looming over all. He’s just a bump in the road, one author amongst many in a genre that stretches back thousands of years into our very ideas of myth and identity, and not one of the more interesting ones.

If Tolkien is a bump, then Martin is a zit.

>>5074799
both are shit. by shit, i mean i do not enjoy them and cant find a reason why anyone would.

I'll never get the comparison

They're two different authors from different time that, despite working on the same genre, tried to achieve very different things

Tolkien liked to appeal to emotions and basically wrote about legends with simple yet fundamental teachings, Martin wrote about a gritty, realistic world with complex characters and plots, apples and oranges

If we just talk about quality, Martin's prose is clearly weaker, but there's no reason in making fun of the sex scenes or the "sunset found her squatting" scene. They are there for a particular reason, if Martin wants you to see how pitiful Daenerys' situation is he will straight up write about her fucking diarrhea, or should he have used metaphors for that?

>>5089053

GRRM's shitting prose was a metaphor for the entire writing process

>>5087404

*farts*
- George

>>5078120

how else are you supposed to write?

>>5088804

we can only hope that martin finishes the series strong and only then will we know whether its better than lotr

i like the start of the series, but after the red wedding and the lannister assasinations, it feels like a void has appeared in the story, a void of compelling characters and no momentum.

stannis baratheon is the most useless character and martin made a mistake by making him the key player to survive all the killing in book 3

martin's prose is not as good as tolkien's, but tolkien's characters are all very one-dimensional and nothing interesting really happens

its funny that even though tolkien invented the genre of fantasy, his work was actually different from what fantasy has become, which is basically "action movies for the imagination", whereas tolkien's work was more like mythology-inspired epic poetry type stuff, with

>>5089053

this is my thought too, a lot of the criticism of martin's prose comes off very pretentious, he didnt write the book to impress /lit/ he wrote it to make you feel shit about characters and action

martin is bad with metaphors and should use less of them

it's liek the more he tries to be /lit/ the more he distracts from the good parts of his writing, the gritty world and grey characters

>>5088968
You have such a shitty attitude. When did it become cool to have the attitude of a jaded world-weary angsty teen?

>>5089344

This thread is some stupid thread about preference. So if that's the fucking point then there has to be a fucking scale.

Broken Sword which was publish the same year as Fellowship. And it is essentially the same fucking story, but better. Anyone who calls Tolkien a father of modern fantasy who changed the genre forever has no idea of the actual roots of fantasy are.

The books are enjoyable and so is The Hobbit, I'd say The Hobbit is actually the best part of his works actually.

>>5088804
I've never felt like ASoIaF is actual world, like it could really exist. It's just a fantasy world to me. Sure, it's sort of interesting (I've read all the books), but most of the content of the books terrible.

In Tolkien's world you have all of the little things that make the world feel alive. AoIaF just has giant lists of names.

>>5089344

>you have such a shitty attitude

Objective observer here, he's just displaying the typical and expected level of 4chan snark and you're just mad because he disagrees with you. If you think that's a shitty or edgy attitude you haven't been here long

>>5081444
here you go.

>>5081283
> His characters were supposed to be shitty.

Well that makes it fine then.

>>5082649
> Literally every character has remarkable nuance.

Tell me more of random dwarf 3's nuances in The Hobbit.

>>5092001

Your post wasn't directed at me, but why are you worried about nuance in The Hobbit? From what I understand, it's the written form of a story he made up to tell his kids.

>>5092001
The Hobbit is his fucking kids book that he wrote. Essentially nobody defending Tolkien is defending The Hobbit. It's good for the standards of kids' books but, you know.

>>5092089
> Literally every character

That's why. It was the easiest example.

I'd pick GRRM but I've only partially read the Hobbit which is a boring joke.

>>5091493
fair play anon

Original: “Can I still get into heaven if I kill myself?”

G.R.R: “Will I still be granted admittance into the eternal realm of white-fire bliss, the nirvana of the dead, if I were to evacuate this life from my veins?”

Why do most people who hate George's work on here seem to know the entire story? Have you guys read all his books?

Literally all critique of his work seems to be the "sunset found her squatting in the grass" and a few more.

>>5092128
People are arguing on mostly LOTR and the Silmarillion since the Hobbit predates both of them and is much less elaborated.
It's also a shorter book, so there's no space to have a fucking Dwarf #2 POV chapter.

>>5093976
I honestly find the themes and ideas behind his writing childish.
Oh! People can be bastards! Oh no! People don't always follow the rules! OHMANOHGOD! The real world isn't black and white!

Come on.

>>5094021

What's so childish about writing humans as we are? It seems to make for more interesting characters then purely good or purely bad characters don't it?

>>5094066
Because humans aren't ALL amoral deviants willing to sell their family for nickels at the first chance?

>>5094193
Eddard Stark
Barristan Selmy
Arthur Dayne
Brienne of Tarth
Gerold Hightower

I could go on if you want.

If you haven't even read a page of the books why try to critique it?

>>5093976
I dont have any stock in GRRMartin's work, and I don't think about them enough to hate them or even have a general opinion on it. I just want to mention that the "sunset found her squatting" passage is particularly egregious.

Logically, something's not going to be amazing if it's got that passage, if only for it. But it's not like Martin would write stellar prose and then all the sudden include that bit.

It's pretty damning evidence, you have to admit.

>>5094201
The problem with them is that most of them are shitcanned whenever someone equally "grey" faces them.

>>5094222
That doesn't make sense as a criticism.

>>5094222
>>5094224
Nor does it accurately describe any moment in the books.

>>5094224
Why not?
What Martin tries to show is that if you're good at all, you're going to lose because you're limiting your actions or some shit.

That's highschool Kingdom Hearts fanfic morality, man.

>>5094193
not only that but martin also seems to equate honor with stupidity

the whole series has some kind of weird nihilistic undercurrent of almost self loathing

I mean tolkein is kind of the same, it has a kind of religious moral undercurrent

I dont re-read either series at all... but in all honesty I would rather read the hobbit over and over than read martin.

>>5094233
Eddard loses because he trusts Littlefinger.
On the other hand Ser Duncan always insists on doing every action "for the good" and shit usually just works out for him because he gets others to believe in him, notably two important princes.

>>5094239
But Tolkien does that to show that people can be redeemed no matter how bad they fuck up, a very christian idea.
Martin's writing shows no intent of such at any point. Hell, I still have no idea what's the purpose to anything he does on ASOIAF other than hurr ppl sudnt honor u must haet Morales durr describ food.

>>5094243
>trusting fucking littlefinger
See>>5094239
In Martin's world, good people are stupid or delusional. They haven't been "red pilled".

>>5094282
Again, I don't understand your use of the term "good people".
Jon Connington
Aegon V
Jon Snow
Davos
Barristan Selmy
Tyrion (kinda)

There are loads of characters who are "good" that are not shown to be unintelligent. Far from it.

You could say that many receive a reverse-karmic comeuppance, but that would be a shitty retort since almost every character in the series undergoes some kind of trauma or tragedy.

I wish you retards would just stop caring about asoiaf. There are constantly 2-3 threads bashing the author or the series on here.

What is it about the series? Is it because its popular now? Why is this guy who most on here reefer to as a fat neckbeard the topic of discussion so often?

It's odd that a group of people who supposedly have read the greatest works in literature, spend so much time discussing mediocre writers.

>>5094282
well even as far as something fantasy to read goes, why would you want to read the back stab-a-thon, its mostly just cheap drama and betrayal there is barely any decent action or fighting even for all the 'gritty' praise he gets, mostly its just someone slaughtering someone elses army or a shady knife in the back with the odd duel and battle thrown in here and there.

sure I guess there is suspension of disbelief argument for tolkein but cmon, that shit is old school written years ago.

yeah I agree I would rather the slight tediousness of religious morality over all the interesting characters getting fucked on in martins work.

really they both aren't that great, the hobbit is a well written fantasy adventure I think in the classical sense its actually fun to read but lord of the rings is kinda tedious and martin wrote his ideas to pieces.

there is all sorts of other shit I would much rather read.

like I said way up the top of the thread, these fags havent read anything martin is not an epic its a fantasy soap opera. barely fantasy at all, a couple dragons and a little undead barely even featured during the series even if the ending of the series is great most of the series is boring.

>>5094319
>stop enjoying it because it's boring
Ow, my brain.

>>5094317
fuck off and don't come back then if you don't like it here

>>5094324
What is your stupid problem I just explained the exact reasons why I find it to be boring and you just pick the tiny bit at the end to be a faggot about.

and that is just my opinion if you want to read at very best a trilogies worth of material stretched out to twice-three times its length then go the fuck ahead.

>>5094327

One would think a /lit/ user would have a wider range of vocabulary, but no, it always goes back to fuck.

Never change /lit/.

Am I the only one who thinks the two series/authors are vastly different and the comparisons are pointless?

Also, despite what either side says both authors will be later looked at as legends.

>>5094343
Hahaha, got a little mad, huh?
>it's boring because I don't like it
No shit, but maybe the people who like it don't find it boring?

>>5074799
No

>>5094358
>Maybe if I whine like a complete faggot the pain of being dismissed will fade slightly

>>5094391
>dat mad

>>5094204
No because when writing a series as lengthy as ASOIAF you are bound to write a few bad eggs. That doesn't discredit the works as a whole.

Also, when you're actually reading the book, that excerpt doesn't strike you as egregious. Just a line about a woman with diarrhea, nothing to center your misguided opinions around.

>>5081677
>tolkien
>characters
No such thing

ASOIAF= good storyline, realistic characters, shit prose
LOTR= much worse storyline, shit characters, okay prose
Wouldn't recommend to read either, stopped halway through first books because of those reasons
Still prefer GoT as a series, the LOTR movies are so fucking shit words cannot express it
GoT is at least watchable while having a big as fuck postworkout meal with a nice wine or running on treadmill at home (but it's getting shittier and shittier now)

>>5094416
Watchers was fucking fantastic.

>>5087332
>Complain all you want about "wooden characters" but wooden characters does not equal a bad book

Oh my God. Maximum pleb, and you probably don't even realize it.

Please never write a novel.

>>5094420
You're on /lit/, no one's going to write a novel.

>>5094416

>postworkout meal

That explains your shit taste

>>5094425
[fatness intensifies]

>>5094425
What exactly are you defending, Tolkien's "characters" or GRRMs prose? Just to clear this up so can you confirm yourself for the retard you are.

>>5094427

says the guy having to work out.

>>5094418
This >>5094435
Is 4U too

>>5094438
Sure thing, fatty .

>>5094439
Did you have a stroke?

>>5094442

>dat space before the period

you losing your cool, mate?

>>5094438
>not enjoying lifting
Confirmed for effeminate pseudointellectual fuckface
Also >>5094427
Is not me btw

>>5094447
Says the fatty.

>>5094446
I messed up posts
Whatever
Also note that you're talking with two guys

>>5094455
4 U!

The only think complex about Martin is how intricately ugly his face is

>>5094470
I applause you for your sharp, biting critique

>>5094470

If you want to read the works of attractive people, I'm sure some model is releasing a diet book anytime now.

>>5079667
*Tips*

Rescue bump

Obviously GRRM because he can write a plot with intrigue and interesting characters.