/lit/ - Literature

>>5022487
im not against feminism

its just that any time i see a feminism thread i scroll past because its useless to argue against antifeminists and they all use the same trite arguments you can find voted to the top of any reddit thread that got like 4000 upvotes about a false rape accusation

>>5022487
I'm really not, I just take issue with the intentionally divisive rhetoric that is a plague to modern feminism. Too many Malcolm X's and not enough MLK's.

>>5022495
That's very true.

I think this is my attempt at trying to get people to see feminism from a different angle.

So maybe it wont end up in "muh pussification of men".

It's a gamble of course.

>Women need more legal protection and power so to demonstrate this we will crush any dissent through our majority in the electorate and higher educational institutions
>Get over it rapist!

Overkek.

>mfw Evolakid gets a load of this.

I dont like it because I don't think its oppressor/victim dichotomy is coherent

If I could call myself a feminist and only be associated with the sane ones, I'd call myself one in a heartbeat. Unfortunately, the insane feminists are also the loudest.

Also I refuse to give up my belief that women are inherently worse at driving.

>>5022527
>But it's only one neurocognitive difference, I swear!

Bluepill just hop over the fence jesus christ

>>5022506
I actually think it's quite the opposite. A big reason black people are still oppresses is because there are too many MLKs around, too many people ready to accomodate the whites.

If you had more Malcolm X's you fight for equality "by any means necessary".

Both are needed in my opinion, and the only reason MLK was successful was because the government viewed the situation as having two subversives, and only one could be a potential ally against the other. So in a way, X enables MLKs to succeed to some level.

despite the more radical feminists that have no influence outside of tumblr or the academia, I still identify as one because why the fuck not.

I really do not see what is such a big deal about that apart from hetero-normative white males feeling threatened, really. I do see a big deal with the desire for any equality of any kind being painted with the same brush as net radicals aka "sjw tumblr fag gtfo"

>>5022542
Okay so where is the lack of equality?

>>5022542
Agreed.

I also think that the idea of radical feminists is mostly a strawman kind of punching bag.

Find a few people you can put down, and then say all others are just like this.

I'm not, but feminism is a broad church like any -ism. We would do well to heed and support legitimate claims made on the basis of true equality, reciprocity and justice. At the same time, we should rip the jugular out of the loads of non-political bullshit that now goes under the banner.

>>5022536
Most people completely miss the point of 'by any means necessary'. The key word is 'necessary'. Look at the position of the IRA, where they achieved absolutely none of their goals via violent means and many of them by peaceful means. They achieved more with one meeting in 1997 than they did with decades of violence before.

>>5022542
>hetero-normative white males feeling threatened
>threatened
I think the word is 'repulsed' Many women and people who aren't white feel the same way but sure 'white males'

>>5022532
I never said it was just one. I think its plausible that there are differences between men and women in other areas. Driving is the only one that my personal experience has extensively backed up. Not that any of them are relevant or extreme enough to merit different treatment.

>>5022559
I understand what you're saying, but I think it's a major digression from what I'm saying.

MLKs non-violence, may only have been effective because there were other very violent actors. It created a need for the government to respond to MLK, because otherwise, the violent actors would do much much worse.

Gandhi was very successful, but there are many violent actors who wanted the same goal. Would he have garnered the same kind of support without them?

What my contention is, is that social change is complex, and it often requires both working in a strange kind of unity.

>>5022561
You already treat men and women differently though in real life, anon.

>>5022564
Yeah I think South Africa is doing swell, for instance

>>5022561
Let me tell you a little tale. Black people are often much less likely to know how to swim compared to whites in the US.

That's not because of an inherent trait. I wont tell you why, I hope you'll become curious and either figure it out or look it up.

The same can be said of why supposedly women are worse drivers. Though all you have is your own anecdotal evidence, and I have mine which doesn't actually support your position.

>>5022567
Sure. But nobody should be required to by force of law, and in some contexts, equality must be mandated by force of law.

To be honest I can't tell if you're a feminist pissed at me refusing to give up the driving stereotype, or an antifeminist pissed at someone thinking feminism can be mostly reasonable.

Feminism is a tool for tearing down the barriers than mummify our thought and behavior. To kill assumptions with glee. But it can adeptly be wielded to enact barriers, and I think that trying to use it to create a morality can possibly destroy it because its demands will snowball until their burden is too great and it becomes rejected altogether; by this I mean especially extended morality to thought and art; art should be understand, for instance, as a reflection of the society which produces it; when you chase art itself, then it like Christianity saying that some art is sinful. So I disagree with Marcuse's notion of using feminism to mold behavior; feminism is greatest when breaking molds.

>>5022572
So what do you mean about this whole enforcing equality with law stuff? What do you think would be necesarry to change at this point? Where's the legal inequality? Also you should probably gice up your black and white mentality, it's a tool of the patriarchy.

>>5022571
I've seen it theorised that black Americans never learnt to swim because until very recently they couldn't afford vacation time, and the reason white kids learn to swim is so they could enjoy their summer holidays. Hell, I know I only really swam on holiday.

>>5022575
>but it cannot adeptly be wielded

>>5022571
the difference here is that men and women could plausibly have evolved different brains(technically they have in terms of composition) because they occupied different roles. The two sexes are clearly physically different(much more strikingly so than races), so it isnt that much of a leap to propose that there could be psychological ones as well. Races don't work as well for this because they're aren't distinct the way sexes are/

Of course there could also not be any innate differences but the point is we don't know.

>>5022575
What are your views on the sort of feminism which most of 4chan sees as the 'typical' type? the post modern tumblr type

>>5022572
Can I just tell you that female insurance premiums are usually much lower than male ones?

>>5022571
Dude every (slight hyberbole) girl's daddy buys them a car, shut the fuck up.

>>5022564
A very good point about MLK; he was active during a time of widespread rioting in black urban centers, and JFK, LBJ and other white establishment figures were scared shitless and turned to MLK as an "ambassador" or those rioting (whether those rioting saw him as such or not).

>>5022575
>Feminism is a tool for tearing down the barriers than mummify our thought and behavior.

No. The way of thinking that leads to feminism's conclusions may be a way of tearing down all those fancy, pointless words you like to use, but that way of thinking isn't unique to feminism.

>>5022575
Femininity and Feminism by extension are spooks

It's beyond obvious that many people who make up the "public face" of feminism actively go snooping around to find things to interpret as being sexist. It's a very perversely academic disposition, "oh wow, if you think about it THIS way, ____ is actually sexist/racist/whatever!"

>>5022588
Well feminism has posited femininity as a spook (as Stirner did) for some time.

>>5022588
Feminism as a method to reject femininity only ever seemed absurd to me.

>>5022594
It does not, not on the whole.

>>5022584
You could tell me that, I and I know it's true, but it doesn't actually have any persuasive value. Males tend to cause worse accidents than females. Females, more numerous. Insurance evaluates their premiums based on total monetary cost of the accidents, not on any accurate measure of driver skill between genders.

>>5022578
I think you're pretty much right, and also they tend to be raised by parents who lived in shittier/poorer neighborhoods without pools to go to, or the pools themselves were segregated(racist whites keeping out the blacks).

Thus, your parents never teach you, you never teach your kids, etc.

There's also another interesting reason why black people smoke menthols! Can you figure it out?

>>5022598
I'm not terribly concerned with feminism on the whole, because feminists "on the whole" haven't read feminist theory much more than communists "on the whole" have read Das Kapital.

>>5022584
>What are your views on the sort of feminism which most of 4chan sees as the 'typical' type? the post modern tumblr type
Tumblr is not really postmodern feminism. Postmodern feminism is applying Foucaultian ideas to feminist theory.

>>5022582
Men and women in many old school humans groups(hunter-gatherers, gatherers) were egalitarian. There was no division of labour my sex. In other groups there was.

Almost all of modern science and psychology actually shows that the brain has almost no differences between the two genders.

Psychologically speaking, any differences we do see in adults can largely be ascribed to the social atmosphere, culture, parental raising, media, etc.

But again, I'm not against the POSSIBILITY of inherent difference, I just haven't seen any hard science in support of that.

>>5022600
>There's also another interesting reason why black people smoke menthols! Can you figure it out?
Now that eludes me, I'm British so our cultural stereotypes are very different.

>>5022597
When you realize feminism is actually engineered by female jews to get women into the consumer marketplace and tax base, and weaken the family hold on children in favor of state propaganda, it makes a lot more sense.

>>5022586
Exactly, I wish I knew more, but it just seems social change is incredibly complex.

Many people think Malcolm X is unimportant, or the guy who was wrong, etc, and white people(myself included sometimes) love to hold him up as some kind of exemplar of hope and change. But when we fail to consider to what extent Malcolm X made that happen, it creates not only a distorted view of history, but also a distorted understanding of how to change the now.

Sometimes you really need people fighting for what they need and believe, because accommodating only gets so far.

>>5022606
It may not be terribly intellectual post modernism, but its post modern in nature regardless.

I sometimes can't help but doubt their final intentions, I'm not overly keen on turning into a race of obese genderless polyamarous pronouns.

>>5022603
Fair enough then. Also
>reading das kapital
>implying this happens

>>5022577
If there is a gender pay gap (which I'm not convinced there is), then that is a situation where government intervention in the market may be permissible. If women are denied equal rights, then the law should step in. As to the rest of your post, I have no clue what gice means, nor how I've expressed any sort of black and white mentality.

>>5022611
kek

>>5022624
Okay but it's true and verifiable

>>5022618
There really is no point in this day and age. Pick up some Piketty instead.

>>5022627

verify it

>>5022609
The cigarette companies had a lot of really shitty and cheap tobacco that no one really wanted, so they added menthol to it to mask how shitty the tobacco was and black people were able to afford it. They also ended up marketing it directly to that population.

Now the cultural component of buying menthol cigarettes still exists, but I don't even know if they are cheaper.

>>5022622
There is not, and you admit to supporting legislation in favor of one demographic that is somehow for "equality". This is because you're a weak willed, emotionally manipulable faggot who would benefit the world by dying. For help in not being the harmful moron that you are, I'll leave this

http://youtube.com/watch?v=G_sGn6PdmIo&feature=kp

Inb4
>Don't be mean xP you must be wrong now

>>5022607
Yeah I mostly agree with this. I really suspect there are some differences though, even if they're overshadowed by culture. I mean one sex grows fucking organisms in them and the other has slightly more muscle and height..

>>5022622
There is still pay discrimination, numerous well conducted studies have found this out even when controlling for every confound.

We also have to consider for example, what kind of society we want to create. We could have more women being leaders, scientists, authors, if we harbored a culture that gave girls role models as often as we give boys those kinds of role models.

Currently if you watch TV, you rarely see a women in a leadership or scientific role, whereas for boys it's the norm. We can change that.

That might also help with the pay disparity.

>>5022638
The stereotype here is for black people (and poor people in general, as Britain divides by class where the US divides by race) to smoke roll ups pretty much exists for the same reason.

>>5022647
post them because you don't have them, you have huffington post

>>5022642
O of course, physical differences do exist. We have differing rates of certain hormones as well because of a difference in sexual organs.

I just don't think that difference is really big enough to constitute a difference of gender norms.

I want to live in a society where men are more nurturing, and don't think they need to get in fights to prove their status. That's just barbarism.

I want to see both men and women being virtuous people. I think if we stop shoving them into particular roles, we can do that.

>>5022647
Well then why do they insist of victimizing the fuck out of women
>muh safe spaces
>muh x against women
>wome women blah blah blah
Makes them look like children

>>5022649
Interesting. You largely only see Hipsters rolling their own cigarettes around here, at least in NYC.

Personally I think it's the most reasonable way to smoke cigarettes. Get good quality tobacco, and it's cheaper. I always ask smokers why they don't.

I don't smoke myself, just saying.

>>5022647
The major problems there are at grassroots level. There simply are not as many female leaders, scientists and authors because they don't tend to take these things in schools and colleges. We need to reform education and the rest will follow.

>>5022617
It's postmodern in period, maybe. That's generally referred to as "third-wave".

Final intention, judging by Foucault's ideas on culture, would be to make it so each person has shiz own gender or whatever. That's the ultimate intention of postmodern multiculturalism as well, to create so many subcultures that there's on per person. The end of this is to make mass-control extremely difficult.

>>5022618
Try reading it according to Althusser's program. I'm not really big on his brand of bullshit, but that program is one thing I like.

>>5022663
Ask yourself why the hipster traits exist, Anon. You've done it with black people, now try it with another subsection of society.

>>5022654
I do actually. Here you go.

Wikipedia gives us a nice little source which talks about various studies on the subject, it seems even when controlling for various factors, there is still discrimination going on.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_pay_gap#United_States
This does a good job in covering comprehensive studies on the subject.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Male%E2%80%93female_income_disparity_in_the_United_States#Explaining_the_gender_pay_gap
Looks like the gay gap is real.
So various studies including comprehensive ones say it exists, and in-case you don't like wiki, here are others.
http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2014/04/08/on-equal-pay-day-everything-you-need-to-know-about-the-gender-pay-gap/
The pay gap has diminished, but there is still systemic discrimination.
https://www.stanford.edu/group/scspi/_media/pdf/key_issues/gender_research.pdf
Looks like a legit source, Stanford. This says we've made progress, but there's still a nice little pay gap. And it reiterates that discrimination is still happening.

>>5022661
I don't know what you're saying.

>>5022665
Reform education yes.

But you have encapsulated in my opinion why it's so fucking important that men are feminists too. We have the power, they need our help, so yes there aren't as many women who are scientists and leaders, so that means if we want change, we can't necessarily rely on that.

What can WE do?

>>5022670

lol, you got me man. I would have to go with the folllowing. The Hipster has a very strong desire for both authenticity and non-conformism. Hobos and various artists used to have to roll their own cigarettes, and mass produced cigarettes are too much conforming, so they roll their own to look "cool".

>>5022636
>Dworkin was born in Camden, New Jersey, to Harry Dworkin and Sylvia Spiegel. Her father was the grandson of a Russian Jew who fled Russia when he was 15 years old in order to escape military service and her mother was the child of Jewish emigrants from Hungary

>Chesler was the eldest of three children raised in a working class Orthodox Jewish family in Brooklyn, New York.[1] As a youth she joined the Socialist-Zionist, anti-religious youth movement, HaShomer Hatzair, and later the even more radical left-wing Zionist youth movement

>Morgan was born on January 29, 1941, although the birthdate was reported inaccurately throughout her career as a child actor. She was born in Lake Worth, Florida to unmarried Jewish parents

>Shulamith Bath Shmuel Ben Ari Feuerstein was the second of six children of Orthodox Jewish parents born in Ottawa and raised in Kansas City and St. Louis. Her family Americanized its surname to Firestone when Shulamith was a child.

>Carol Hanisch does not have an extensive biography but that is obviously a jewish name

An extension of this is pretty much literally every book about white privilege is written by a "white" jewish person, and an absolutely enormous amount of SJW and feminist articles are written by people with overtly jewish names.

Contemporary jewish feminist would be Laurie Penny and Anita Sarkeesian, an two inflammatory media hounds the latter of which is a plagiarist, scam artist, and knows little to nothing about the medium she critiques. For the record I don't give a shit about video games at all but these are the facts

>>5022681
I agree, it's a terrible problem that women are overrepresented by 10%+ in many if not most university's. #fixeducation

>>5022682
Jewish people are overrepresented everywhere though. Music, physics, whatever

fucking Freud, Einstein and Marx are all German jews, who each represented fundamental paradigm shifts in very important fields

jewish people are clearly just superior

>>5022681
Actually not entirely accurate. You have to realise that everything a 'hipster' does is in the name of their image as is so often assumed. The answer is that most of them started smoking in high school or college, and didn't have the money for cigarettes.

>>5022687
Sounds like we are finally making a step towards having more female leaders and scientists.

Consider equality like a pendulum, things are very unequal first with way more boys in university, and when things start to swing back in certain avenues like education, more women might go to college for a short period as things start to rebalance.

How many total men/women have degrees? Look at the broader picture.

And if you want to contribute to the discussion, try to condescend less.

>>5022696
Most Hipsters in NYC probably aren't poor. So I think maybe that's too simple of a reason.

Or they think it's ironic.

>>5022682

>individually pick out some modern feminists
>they have jewish ancestry
>therefore a movement claiming equality for women is a massive conspiracy to make a jewish ruling class profit

nice logical fallacies brah

also, what about Mary Wollstonecraft or Simone de Beauvoir?they were the real founders and had nothing to do with jews. you're full of shit and need to l2history.

>>5022695
>Music
No. Hollywood and because of their clannish tribal mentality that they discourage anyone else from employing. They -produce- music as a kickback from the financial privileges they entertain from being a small group that was trusted almost entirely with finance for centuries because religion. Overall your post is terrible and would support the idea of women being genetically inferior anyway by argument of the state of things. "If everyone is equal then why aren't we".

>>5022711
https://www.google.ca/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&es_th=1&ie=UTF-8#q=jewish%20classical%20composers
>medelssohn
>mahler
>schoenberg\


you were saying

and of course women are inferior is that a serious question

>>5022710
>B-b-but in the 1700's when most men couldn't vote that's not how it was!

You'll notice my post concerns the contemporary. I'm not even surprised anymore how intellectually dishonest leftists are though, so good show.

>>5022716
I forgot it's dawn in the holy land. Shalom!

>>5022710
Thanks for taking the time to battle the jewish conspiracy troll.

>>5022674
Isn't pay gap the result of women getting pregnant, men choosing riskier jobs who pays more while women goes for the safe and steadily? At least that's what most of those studies sugests.

Now why should a bussiness oblige to pay a salary if your not working? Or why women should be paid the same that a high-risk job while siting comfortable behind a table?

Pay gap, unless you're in a 3rd world shithole is a myth.

>>5022723
Shhhhh, you're raping us

>>5022719

does anyone even understand the point he is trying to make here?

>>5022722

i know i shouldn't bite but /lit/ means something to me and i hate seeing it being infested with these brainwashed /pol/tards. this is our space and we will do justice to reason and history here.

>>5022723
I suggest reading the studies, they control for confounds, pregnancy would be one of them.

Also, why in the world would you not want to get parental leave? In Scandinavian countries, even a man can take time off to take care of his children.

That seems like a much better system, more caring, more nurturing.

Also, if feminists get their way, and we don't push men into more dangerous roles, it means women would be more likely to pursue them.

So it's literally a win-win for everything, even people like you.

UP YOURS, PATRIARCHY

>>5022731
>this is our space and we will do justice to reason and history here
getting a bit dramatic are we

>>5022731
I respect you for it, honest. And you alluded to the risk of engaging in said trolls.

Once such beings exist, there really is no win-win, so I commend that we have at least one troll hunter to try and suppress their idiocy.

I'm a Jew, and I find his position mind-boggling, but I wont tell him that I control 40% of the world's wealth and have the world at my fingertips, I'll keep him guessing.

>>5022737
No, he's defending a public forum he enjoys. Public forums harbor democracy, he values democracy, trolls harm the possibility of collective discourse.

It's only dramatic because the stakes are real. Ideas matter.

>>5022733
You haven't suggested anything though. You're just mindlessly critiquing things from your own narrative admitting you don't even know what you're talking about. Do you even have a solution other than "I better get paid for this after I graduate or else it's the patriarchy"?

>>5022738
You sound like me trying to explain that I don't have privilege lying on a memory foam mattress from an iphone because I'm not Bill Gates. It's just accepted for you because muh 6 million.

>>5022741
How have I not suggested anything?

I'm suggested mandated parenting leave for men and women in the US. Like literally 95% of countries have.

Mindlessly? Right, so that's not true.

What don't I know what I'm talking about?

Yes, I have plenty of solutions, I already mentioned one. Others are in this thread and pertain to creating role models, which means cultural change(changing our commercials, films, shows, etc).

To name a few.

It seems like what just happened, is that you projected your own inadequacy or lack of argument unto me. Do you want to engage in fruitful discourse, or do you just want to call me mindless?

>>5022752
No you said "I'm sure they control for" and "other countries". You implied a solution, great. So you want parental rights, good. How is this a feminist issue? If you're concerned with equality and parental rights why do you call those poor bastards who got taken advantage of MRAs and tip imaginary hats at them?

>>5022758
Did your brain explode?

I don't know what the fuck just happened in your mind, or how you took the conversation in this direction.

>>5022737

yeah, blame Cicero. reading him atm

>>5022740

das it mane

>>5022766
You have nothing. You haven't read your studies, and for that matter this entire "well maybe we should give both parents off like other countries do!" argument is you trying to cover the fact that you do not actually know what is controlled for in them. That's how this started. What you're doing now is the same thing you did before, attempting to stall by belittling anything I say.

If you're suggesting that parents should have leave when they have a child then that's not a feminist issue. It's a problem workers in some countries have with employers. You don't want to talk about the other issue I mentioned because it's not convenient and I don't really care. I'm just pointing out that is an actual gender unequal problem concerning children and the parents alone, and you don't generally here a peep from feminists regarding it, which is hypocritical.

>>5022733
As far as i know parental leave for men isn't on the same level, a woman can get 1 to 6 months while a man unless under some severe circumstance (death of spouse, adoption) is lucky to get a month.

And i would like to see women getting on dangerous jobs without anybody having to intervene and dumbing it down, like it happens in the army and on some areas.

I'm all for equality. Put everybody under the same standards, no special treatment because you have a penis or a vagina, of course that will never happen, feminists will cry a river and if they don't other political groups will, because:
>Muh blacks
>Muh immigrants
>Muh poor people
>Muh rich people putting people down
>Whiteys are the devil.
I'm not even white btw

So i say, let feminism have it, after they are done another group will come and after that another, one always trying to devour the other. I'm just gonna sit back and relax, i'm too tired already of this shit.

>>5022655
>virtue

>>5022780
I actually have read them. They provide adequate evidence for my position.

That's literally not what happened. I'm guessing you're just a troll though.

Anyways, we should have leave for both parents, it works in other countries pretty well.

I don't think you know what feminism is. Maybe that's why you don't think it's a feminist issue.

It also doesn't really matter what you call it. Do you agree we should have the leave or not?

>>5022781

Should have equal leave for both parents.

And if we encourage both sexes with the same values, there's no reason why some women wouldn't pursue those fields more often.

I don't think it needs to be dumbed down, that just sounds like sexist propaganda.

>>5022794
That is what happened as evidenced by the comment chain, you're still stalling on even explaining your position and continuing to try and belittle me. This is pretty hilarious, and a little sad because I know that it actually works.

>Do you agree we should have leave or not

Are you kidding? You already do, assuming "we" is women. I need to understand how making things equal is somehow a feminist issue, when women already benefit more? You're telling me women will now champion for mens rights, or that men need to bow to the banner of "feminism" to be heard on an issue where they are disadvantaged? No one has ever explained this retarded logic and you are not the first one to attempt to just say "you just DON'T GET IT" and try to drop it.

You have not read them. Again, the post history will show you assuring someone that the studies probably did X. You cannot lie about what you have written, my dear. This is not an argument with your boyfriend or whatever. I believe that maybe you have skimmed them briefly since you have posted that and will continue to say vague nothings about their findings and procedure.

>>5022803
Well now you've just completely digressed into both willful ignorance, and just downright lying.

Also, I'm not a woman.

>>5022803

I'm not the guy you're arguing with right now, but I just felt the need to tell you that you are, in fact, the dumbest mother fucker going. How do you make it through life without being punched in the mouth ever twenty minutes?

>>5022812
They literally said that the studies probably controlled for pregnancy but anyway other countries allow men time off as well, then denied it happened. Now you're just continuing to avoid actually addressing anything by insulting me, when there are real issue where women have a clear benefit over men that feminism wants to silence or insult like you pathetic retards are doing now.

I'm going to go wake up my girlfriend despite her having to work way earlier than me right now in an enforcement of the patriarchy, just for you guys! Keep on fighting facts, one sarcastic comment at a time buddy.

#yesallwomen
#endfathersday

>>5022812
You are awesome sir/madam, thank you for this.

>>5022818
>studies probably controlled
>probably

Never actually said by anon in question.

Sucks to suck.

>>5022819
Please don't upvote things on /lit/, it adds nothing to the conversation. The comment itself is also quite dehumanizing.

There are plenty of other websites where you can go about validating people and using "epic" vocabulary.

If this was irony I apologize.

>>5022821
Okay I apologize this is over them saying "pregnancy would be", I interpreted incorrectly. In any case what I'm seeing in here so far in this stanford study is a lot of explanation in the disparity of wages over time and in the conclusion is says women still perform more household duties and face unnamed "discrimination". Stating that women earn less due to home matters and then blaming vague discrimination is exactly what I'm saying is the cause and accusing them of doing all right here in this study.

Anywho, this thread actually went much better than I expected, minus the one MRA mega mind.

I hope some anons can comment more on particular issues they agree or disagree with.

Such as parenting leave for example. Or having more positive female role models in our media like Princess Mononoke. If I ever have a daughter, I have to show her that.

I think it's also important to note that many of the feminist causes directly improve the lives of men as well. I'd like to be a stay at home dad, but many people would view that as some kind of degradation. It's not easy to be a pariah in a community, that can really hurt a person's feels.

There's of course plenty of overlap with feminism in other social movements. There's a reason why people like Marcuse exist, they see the connections between wanting to get rid of income inequality and feminism. All these things tie together, so I think it's counter productive to try to diminish one movement, because supposedly another is trying to do something similar. Better to join forces.

>>5022834
mfw srs invaded 4chan near me

>>5022840
>He thinks he could be a stay at home dad

For a few years maybe!

>He thinks the problem would be society's view

Is society the other guys who encounter your hot wife and have money and don't sit at home all day long?

>>5022848
No I'm sorry but seriously guy, where are you even getting these warped views of the future from? There aren't stay at home mothers anymore. There aren't going to be stay at home fathers. You're all tax payers now, and that's not ever going to change barring a shift to a new economic system

There are no radical movements unless you're going to blow some shit up (and then even that never accomplishes anything). Western women are enjoying more freedoms these days because it benefits everyone that they do, it's just not a complete game of Cowboys and Indians anymore.

>>5022836
Can you reword the last sentence, it's a bit unclear.

That study, as well as numerous others find gender discrimination in pay.

That's just a fact. I guess the next question is, is it desirable to change that and help make sure there isn't?

When the research says, there is discrimination while controlling for confounds, it means the reason for the pay disparity is simply because of gender, not because of some other factor like having to do household tasks.

If you read the whole study it goes more into depth of how various discrimination takes place. It's certainly not unnamed.

Just keep reading anon, if you want to know the truth.

>>5022854
Yes, there are, anon. You are the one with a warped view of the present.

>>5022848
What? Depends on what your wife does.

Also I think we can fashion a society that is more equal income wise to make that a reality.

Feminism is in favor of that.

>>5022681
there is nothing that men can do. girls are doing better in school than boys. there are many handouts to girls, they just need to take them. If the don't want to STEM I see no point in making them.

>>5022856
I mean accusing that poster of doing, blaming "discrimination". I also notice the guage labor value by participation but I am not seeing a mention of productivity, which I admit may be difficult to broadly evaluate and what employers would be seeking. Is there material beyond the stanford study? Something that dealt more directly with worker merit and output would be ideal.

>>5022859
Not in significant numbers and most areas that would have the economic fortune for this phenomena are affluent enough that a reversal of gender roles would not be met with much derision. Stay at home motherhood is stigmatized, anon.

>>5022863
A bit oversimplified.

There is plenty men can do. Such as stop cat-calling women on the street for one. That's pretty disrespectful.

We can raise our boys to be nurturing just like we raise our girls. We can stop trying to get girls to play with dolls and boys with guns, and we can stop telling girls to do traditionally feminine things.

How often to dad's let their daughters help them with their fixing up shit around the house? How often do mothers teach their sons to cook?

It's usually the opposite way around. We can change that.

Handouts to girls? That's a start, but pretending like that's suddenly the end all be all of gender issues is so over-simplified and misses the bigger picture.

We can also help create more gender equal media. Media that represents not just the diversity of women in various roles, but just women in more leadership and scientific roles. That has an impact on children and their desires.

If children only ever see their gender doing X Y and Z, they are much more likely to do those things themselves.

That's partly why it's so important that as a parent, you emulate the values you want your children to possess. Which means not hitting your wife and vice-versa if you don't want them to be petty tyrants.

>>5022866
That's not the only study I linked, I don't know about the studies background. I'm sure if you dig you can find it.

But the study itself made the case to me beyond a shadow of a doubt.

>>5022875
So because some retards say "hey babe want me to eat it" when they're drunk I should be taxed to push women into fields they aren't interested in even though they perform better and are overrepresented in modern higher education? Sounds reasonable just deduct it from my annual cisfine

>>5022875
>There is plenty men can do. Such as stop cat-calling women on the street for one. That's pretty disrespectful.

This really isn't a valid point feminism needs to combat. Censoring people's ability to state their attraction to another human being is not a good thing unless extinction is your end goal. The fact that individuals go about this in a rude manner has nothing to do without the overall roles of men and women. Would you be equally disgusted by a woman hitting on a man in such a boorish manner?

Not to mention (read: I believe) it would be pretty out of character for a male on /lit/ to even consider doing something like that.

More time should be devoted to breaking down gender roles than soothing hurt feelings. Jerks will be jerks regardless of sex or social position.

>>5022875

>idealistic retards like this actually post on /lit/

if you want women to be equally represented in media then tell women to start directing things, if they even have the capacity to do so.

>>5022655
Virtue being defined by the "victim" class in a fictional victim/oppressor dichotomy.

>>5022887
I am sure they do, but, it is about desire and personal cost. High achievement is not worth it to a lot of women due to the personal costs, that won't change. what will happen is we would force women into careers they don't want instead of the motherboard role which some don't want. only absolutely silly women think they can have it all.

>>5022571
>That's not because of an inherent trait
Actually most African Americans don't like swimming because they sink easier due to increased bone density.

>>5022600
You can do this about any stereotype:
Why do rural white pass-times seem to mainly be sport hunting and automobiles? Because theres fuck all else to do here!
Stereotypes are created by environment.

>>5022896
Then what does it say about women that they don't desire to be all they could be? That they, when given the opportunity, don't go for gold?

>>5022875
>stop cat-calling
Fair enough

>raise our boys to be nurturing
>stop telling girls to do traditionally feminine
Raise boys to be women and girls to be men. Are you serious? You know that most girls don't go help dad fix the house because:
1 - It's a dirt and sweating job
2 - They have no interest in doing it
You want to shove your values about raising children down everybody throats, that's facism yo.

>Handouts to girls
I remember reading something about Sweden, where they went out and asked women why they didn't partake more in fields dominated by men, and surprisinly the answer was they had no fucking interest in studying those subjects.
Bear in mind that Sweden is considered one of the most gender equal countries in the world.
So go ahead, throw more handouts so we can have more Gender studies alumni, unless you want to specify which course can benefit from these handouts, like STEM fields, i'm all for that, but guess what? Feminists will probably riot about it, "how dare you try to control me".

>more gender equal media
Have you watched tv lately? So many women being the boss but i guess the problem is that they are not the boss on the show you're watching, right?

Pointing out a boogeyman without looking at the full picture or having full information is stupid but that's what feminists generally do.

>>5022914
they go for balance. I don't really see a problem with that

>>5022917
cat calling is not the social ill he would have you believe, it's minor and based purely on culture.

>>5022886
That's a misunderstanding of how it feels to be catcalled, and a false equivalence in terms of thinking a man would feel the same.

You aren't considering broader social factors and their impact on the individual. There's no reason to cat-call period, but if a women does it to me, or even a man, I rarely give a shit because I'm a man, I haven't had to put up with it for years, and my power or status is in no real way threatened or challenged. When it happens to a woman it's usually far from the first time, and it does challenge her identity, it's reinforces the existing ideology. How many times have men become angry when a women ignored their calls, as if she owed them something?

>>5022887
This comment comes from ignorance.

It's the equivalent of saying, hey blacks, you want equality well then becomes politicians. It's not so fucking simple, especially when it's mostly men who police the industry in the first place. And then you get all these absurd reactions when a few people say, why are games so sexist.

>>5022888

No, it's defined by reason, history, psychology, philosophy, and logic. I'm not a women, and I'm a white man, not anyone who is a victim.

Or maybe you're 18 and pretend to be a nihilist, I don't know.

>>5022897
That's actually kind of interesting. I don't think that if this is true, it means they aren't going to be able to swim. Meaning, greater bone density isn't the cause of their general lack of swimming ability, but it might certainly add to incidents of them drowning.

>>5022917
Not at all what I said. Re-read what I said without your bias and assumptions clouding my words.

I didn't say just reverse how we raise kids, but do so in a more equitable way.

They have no interest in it because we don't push them in that direction and we actively push them against doing it. That influence is also on the TV, in the media, their friends, their teachers, etc.

Sure, Sweden isn't a perfect equitable society. It's certainly better than here, but it still operates within a world that is mostly sexist. They aren't in a vacuum, they can still consume particular media, their women can still be influenced from outside sources and even their own sources.

I didn't even say anything about handouts.

And the whole STEM thing, I don't actually care about STEM, I'm just making the point that we should push women into whatever we push boys into, and vice-versa. Meaning there shouldn't be anything we push one gender towards and not the other.

As for TV, this documentary does an excellent job of talking about the issue. I think YOU watch TV with heavy confirmation bias.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miss_Representation

>>5022943
>hurr durr sexual dimorphism doesn't exist and isn't useful the the futuring humankind

>>5022559
While I don't have the knowledge of the Troubles necessary to really argue one way or another, I think it's worth considering that they couldn't have achieved what they did in 1997 the way they did without the violence before.

>>5022542
>no influence outside of tumblr or the academia

>no influence outside of indoctrinating young people or setting policy

Oh, well, if THAT'S all..!

>>5022943
Cool list of fields, but I don't think any of them have defined objective virtue. What you mean by virtuous is a society that upholds your values and not others.

>>5022536
But black people are not oppressed

>>5022943
everything you believe is based on the assumption that men and women are the same and want the same things out of life. This is false, we are wired differently. despite what you feminist leaning studies say, evolution does not stop at the neck, it makes not sense that it would.

>>5022971
this is where one of you faggots would start saying hurr durr gender is a social construct as if that means anything.

>>5022964
No, that's not what I mean. We can look at this empirically, when you agree that human thriving is good, we can look at exactly what does and does not help enable that. We can call values or behaviors which reinforce thriving as virtues.

Nurturing would be a virtue, humans need love, that's non-negotiable.

Unless you're a nihilist, then we have no common ground, but if you share the basic human assumption, then we can make some headway.

>>5022965
If not troll, you are an idiot.

>>5022611
It looks like you're taking the argument that feminism, like all libertarian movements, ultimately benefits the owner class (by increasing the number of available workers and depressing wages, taking mothers from children and forcing the children into public schooling, reducing humans to fungible assest undifferentiated by gender, etc.) and clumsily restating it, instead of refuting it. Would you like help being a better poster?

>>5022971
I can't force you to be educated, but most of the science and psychological research basically shows us that there are very few actual differences between the genders.

Of course we have different genitals and levels of hormones. Overall most of the differences we see are because of our culture and the values and norms we push onto our children.

They are only wired differently because we socialize them differently.

>>5022973
Prove that black people are oppressed in the US.

>omg u r idiot racist is not an argument

>>5022943
>That's a misunderstanding of how it feels to be catcalled, and a false equivalence in terms of thinking a man would feel the same.

> I rarely give a shit because I'm a man

You assume I'm a male and inform me I can't possibly know what it is like to be cat called yet your (male) opinion on the matter is justified? If anything you discriminate against women, seeing them as vulnerable to something you shrug off as a man.

Silly derailments regarding hurt feelings and personal experiences are part of the problem that is plaguing contemporary feminism and turning away potential allies.

Loud idiots will be loud idiots. Their comments will only have profound life-crippling impacts if you allow them to. It's not the job of legislation to protect delicate ears from boors.

>>5022985
Another incredible misunderstanding of what I said, and my position.

Silly derailments? So women being afraid of walking alone on the street is a silly fucking derailment? The problem is things don't stop at cat-calling, cat-calling is just a part of the problem of why women feel unsafe.

And another strawman. I never invent hinted at legislation to curb cat-calling, I said we should not do that as men, that's ALL I said.

Reading comprehension mate, learn it.

Yes , feminosm is a bourgiousie ideology which allows upper class women to "follow their dreams" and meanwhile hurts working class women who now HAVE to work since wages go down due to increases in the labor force so they have to balance work and raising kids, leading to increasing wealth disparities. This is why feminists are the useful idiots of consumerist society and why they are coddled in the media. Its all to increase revenue (remember how smoking for women became a thing)

>>5022965
not anymore, there is still a bit of discrimination going on, but nothing we can't handle

>>5022982
no they don't

>>5022993
It also goes to show why and how socieities that become more "pansy" or "progressive" or "liberal" always end up with bigger and bigger wealth discrepencies

>>5022982
have you ever been in a relationship?

>>5022990
> So women being afraid of walking alone on the street is a silly fucking derailment
You claim (s?)he misunderstood you, and then you implicitly conflate "catcalling is a silly derailment" with "women being afraid of walking alone on the street is a silly derailment," really?

>>5022993
If you'd read jack shit about Marx, you'd know labor conditions had to do with increasing automation in the home than feminism. In the industrial revolution, women worked, and they were exploited as fuck and paid even less than exploited men; in the postwar period, labor was at enough of a premium that a man could again support a household, but at the same time the duties of a housewife were drastically reduced by the washing machine, the dishwasher, the vacuum cleaner, etc. It was natural that they would begin to work outside the home rather than sit on the couch all fucking day when labor was worth so much.

>>5023005
I wanted to ask this proud white knight this a while ago haha

>>5023009
To conclude: material conditions affect ideology, not the other way around. Second-wave feminist theory, as per de Beauvoir, was prior to material condition change, and it was basically academically popular. The Feminine Mystique, the supposed "catalyst" of second-wave feminism, was an inevitable product of material conditions.

>>5022990
women's ability to judge threat levels is shit. random stranger violence is not that common to begin with, aside from that men are more likely to suffer that violence.

That said no one has a right to FEEL safe only to BE safe, she can feel however she wants as long as the facts show she is safer than men it is a non issue.

>>5023009
>implying washing dishes is all bring a housewife is
>implying there wasnt a huge push by corporate interests and social engineers to push women into the marketplace to increase their revenues and also increase tax revenues

Also how is it that at one point women smoking cigarettes was disgusting but after a few commercials, feminist parades, and advertising that smoking was suddenly sexy and fashonable for women? Social engineering.

Face it. Your entire ideology was made to make you a slave (more so than you argue women were prior to feminism)

>>5022990
I was incorrect in using the term legislation when all you want to do is shame people.

I still don't see how cat-calls are equivalent to the fear of traveling alone. In addition: intimidation isn't exclusive to women, you bigot.

You're equating cat-calls with physical violence. I assure you that not every dolt who whistles at women intends to follow up with violent acts against them.

Shaming cat-callers isn't going to solve any problem other than hurt feelings. Jerks will be jerks, and criminals will be criminals.

>>5023026
Washing dishes isn't all a housewife does, no. But the studies de Beavoir reviewed concluded a housewife works six to seven hours a day; that was before mass home automation. That would have to be tremendously affected by toasters, microwaves, vacuum cleaners, dishwashers, washing machines.... It would come up quite short of a standard capitalist working day, and it with the market demand for labor as high as it was, it would ludicrous for women to spend most the day like a NEET.

Smoking was fashionable for women long before second-wave feminism.

If you were a Marxist, then you'd agree I am correct by Marx's theory.

>>5023046
This guy is marxist and he disagrees
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Do5zrdTb-yI&feature=youtube_gdata_player

>>5022943
tl:dr That's the way i think if you don't agree you're biased.

>I didn't say just reverse how we raise kids
"stop trying to get girls to play with dolls and boys with guns, and we can stop telling girls to do traditionally feminine things"

Well if that's not reversing roles i don't know how to call it, have you ever thought that girls do feminine things because they like it, you want to stop parents from parentings, "hey kiddo i can't give you that toy gun because i don't want to influence you into a gender role".

>They have no interest in it because we don't push them in that direction

And now you say that, you see how you contradict yourself? "Stop pushing kids into gender roles that i don't see fit but push them at roles that fit my political views"

>Sweden isn't a perfect equitable society
4th in Global Gender Gap Index says otherwise, not perfect but close enough. Again you generalize and say their women are being influenced by outside media, trying to explain why wouldn't women choose a career in science. Remember something i wrote some posts back about point out a boogeyman to justify your arguments? You're doing it again.

>As for TV
I will watch it and report back till then i stand my ground, the quantity of women especially in tv holding positions of power is surprisingly high, of course they still aren't the main focus of show so i can see how people would have a problem with that, this problem is more visible when we change to movies.


You call for an utopia and i think we both know where utopian visions of a world leads to.

>>5023053
I doubt he disagrees with my argument, he's more likely arguing against feminism being helpful for the worker. My argument is that women entering the workforce in the 60's was materialistically inevitable; Marxism is materialist, not idealist.

Because girls desire equality yet refuse to play air balls during beer pong

>>5023063
> that's not reversing roles i don't know how to call it
"Don't tell girls to play with dolls or guys with guns" != "Tell girls to play with guns and guys with dolls"

>hey kiddo i can't give you that toy gun because i don't want to influence you into a gender role

"Don't tell guys to play with guns" != "Tell guys not to play with guns"

> have you ever thought that girls do feminine things because they like it

Well, let's assume that most girls do feminine things just because they like it, and that the existence of specific categories of toys catering to girls is entirely because girls like them. If there's one girl in ten (or whatever, a minority of some sort) who prefers "masculine" toys, then she's going to be pressured to play with "feminine" toys anyway.

Obviously, it's not a big fucking deal if some baby girls have to play with their second-favorite toys, but this applies to stuff like STEM fields and such. If most girls just naturally don't like engineering, and it gets stereotyped as a "masculine" thing because of that, then the one girl who does like it will feel like it isn't for her.

>>5023101
here is the solution to that, get the fuck over it and do what you want. It's like you don't think men who go into nursing don't get that.

>>5023101
>"Don't tell girls to play with dolls or guys with guns" != "Tell girls to play with guns and guys with dolls"
>"Don't tell guys to play with guns" != "Tell guys not to play with guns"

We are back to "stop influencing kids with gender roles that i don't see fit and instead use this one, approved by me"

>If there's one girl in ten
You can't create policies on the whims of the minority. What about those other girls? They get nothing just because their special sister wants to be an engineer?

>feel like it isn't for her

That's some A-class sheep right there, if a stereotype is stoping her from doing something she likes, how about teach her not to follow the herd and succumb to peer pressure? Never saw someone proposing that especialy when targeted at females.

>>5023101
>"Don't tell girls to play with dolls or guys with guns" != "Tell girls to play with guns and guys with dolls"
>"Don't tell guys to play with guns" != "Tell guys not to play with guns"

We are back to "stop influencing kids with gender roles that i don't see fit and instead use this one, approved by me"

>If there's one girl in ten
You can't create policies on the whims of the minority. What about those other girls? They get nothing just because their special sister wants to be an engineer?

>feel like it isn't for her

That's some A-class sheep right there, if a stereotype is stoping her from doing something she likes, how about teach her not to follow the herd and succumb to peer pressure? Never saw someone proposing that especially when targeted at females.

>>5022973
>If not troll, you are an idiot.

he's right though. actually try to construct an argument next post.

>>5022875

I honestly think when it comes to the children we should just foster whatever non-dangerous play methods and hobbies/talents/passions they enjoy, regardless of what gender is supposed to like it.

Forcing kids to do the things " Opposite of what their gender is supposed to" is still forcing kids to do things they don't want to do, although it does change their perceptions on gender roles. But you can do the same thing by just being open and supportive.

Handouts to anybody ever is usually really fucking retarded and an ineffective, temporary solution.

>>5023205
non - dangerous, you panzy

>>5023208

I meant as far as murder and rape.

Climbing trees and shit- A okay.

>>5023101
We live in a capitalist world and the STEM fields on average make much more than most other fields.

I reject your statement that girls are "pressured" into things like gender studies and english degrees. Their parents if given the choice of them going pre med or gender studies will always pic premed because it fetches a higher wage. In this world thats all that really matters

>>5022487
I'm against feminism for the same reasons I'm against atheism: it's vocal majority are mainly retarded people - in no way better than the people they portray as their enemies.

Just now a semi-raging feminist was a guest on a radio show complaining how there were no female characters in the new Assassin's Creed game. Her arguments were that it's historically inaccurate... Then she goes on to say that finding a female CEO in a game company is like "finding a diamond in the rough"... Incredible loser can't even use a clichéd phrase in the right context. Or maybe she really meant to say that a female CEO is inherently good while a male one is bad. Embarrassing.

The only reason they get a platform to spread their stupidity is because they're so persistent in their ignorance, and the bliss of if engulfs normal people who give them a chance.

>>5023275
I bet she doesn't bitch when women in video games kick all kinds of male ass, even though that is not accurate either.

to correct this silly ho, there are no PLAYABLE female assassins.

>>5023275
It might be that she thinks a female CEO is good, but not quite "helping funnel money to my NGO" good, and in need of polishing.

Asking about whether I have a gf. I'm currently in a relationship going on two years. I've had a few before this.

I would say that if you want a good relationship, being sexist is going to poison it, it ends up in bickering, condescension, and malice.

If you view one another as equals, and have legitimate sharing of duties and obligations, I think it can really help you have a lasting engagement.

The thing is, a lot of sexist attitudes and beliefs are right under our own noses, we aren't really even aware because we just take them all for granted.

For example, we simply assume a women must keep her legs shaved, while a man does not. It's a historically recent phenomenon, and of course the capitalists have created a billion dollar industry just around hair remover, with the requisite billions spent on pushing those ideas of beauty if advertisements.

Men don't have to do that. So, that's just one small example, one way women are expected to do something and we implicility reinforce it. How would you react if your gf decides not to shave, what real argument are you going to make if she says she wants to be just as free as you, why don't you shave your legs anon?

>>5022647
>when controlling for every confound

Bullshit. If you know anything about correlation studies you know opponents of a finding will always be able to come up with new confounds. Until ever.

>>5025286
Because smooth legs on a woman is attractive in our culture. I'm not going to pretend to enjoy leg stubble on a woman to satisfy a sense of social justice.

I try to keep myself from getting too fat and I groom and clean my face regularly to make sure my partner and I are satisfied with my appearance. I don't really think cultural standards of beauty are all that oppressive. If you're unwilling to keep up with them, then you'll just have to find another snowflake that doesn't want to either.

>>5025474
>Because smooth legs on a woman is attractive in our culture.

Why? And is it possible that it favors one gender over the other?

You've been socialized to think a particular way, and it gets reinforces solely by a system that has only the goal of profit in mind. And you mindlessly reinforce it.

To you, reinforcing that agenda is more important than social justice. You aren't interested in equality.

That's fine, it makes sense why you aren't a feminist. You don't really care to understand society, your role in it, and what we can do differently.

We can go our separate ways now.

>>5025604
i'd probably lose my boner over hairy legs on a woman. heck id probably lose my boner over overly hairy forearms, that shit is disgusting. i expect my woman to look good, it's literally the only job she has historically to look good, to provide support and to take care of the home. i on the other hand will bring food, defend her, and not shave. if she is not capable of roughly accepting these ideals then we're clearly not fit to be together. shaving legs is just part of her job to look good for me. just like having a job and not being a bum or a wuss is my job in her criteria. inb4 liberal tears

>>5022487
>So why you guys so against it?
Because men do pretty much everything better than women be it physical activities, literature, film directing, painting, music, science, industry, leadership...pretending that these creatures possess the same capacities as man is foolish. Feminism only got started to expand the workforce to drive wages down and create a generation of weak, compliant, bovine-like men whose mothers erroneously believed they could raise without the presence of a father.

>>5025625
Well good luck with that.

My prognosis, divorce, have fun enforcing your ideology.

>>5025625
All the things that you feel genders are supposed to do are rooted in ideals that really have no true purpose these days.

Your need to defend them and uphold them is as frivolous as these concepts and belies personal issues.

>>5025647
I live in Eastern Europe and don't deal with indoctrinated brainwashed Western whores (at least not on a long-term basis, though most of them are quite happy to indulge in short term flings with someone who actually plays to their biological desires).

>>5025662
>ideals that really have no true purpose these days.
How is a woman looking good an idea that has no true purpose. Who wants to fuck some fat hairy troll of a woman?

>>5025662
Your goal to destroy a strong family as an ideal environment won't succeed with me you Western devil.

>>5025665
>Who wants to fuck some fat hairy troll of a woman?
I agree, but this is closer to a personal decision on the woman's part.
Though I merely believe that the idea that men must defend women only because they are women is as frivolous as a man telling a woman how to dress based on what the man finds attractive.
Here is the issue, we see hairy women as distasteful only due to the learned knowledge that has been propagated by shifting cultural norms. I hardly believe someone two thousand years ago had the same qualms.
>>5025668
Define a strong family.

>>5025707
a strong family is a family consisting of a husband and a wife. where the kid is biologically theirs, and they both subscribe to basic gender roles. devilish creations like slut-walk should be ignored at every turn.

>>5025286
>How would you react if your gf decides not to shave, what real argument are you going to make if she says she wants to be just as free as you, why don't you shave your legs anon?

He can wear jeans to bed on occasion, which I don't comment on, while I don't have to listen to snarky sandpaper comments.

Try it some time, take an occasional weekend off.

>>5025707

Agreed, you don't even have to go that far back. My gf recently said that she simply wants to have the choice not to shave her legs. It doesn't necessarily mean she will or wont, but as far as present society is concerned, women are coerced into it, and people like the other anon would actively enforce it and tell their woman they are disgusting for just being their natural selves.

That's the ideology he purports, one in which a woman in her natural state, just like a man becomes an object of disgust because it doesn't accord with the things he sees in the media.

He's just a zombie, unthinking, and incapable of critically assessing his own desires.

>>5025716

Why is that a strong family?

Why can't two gay men be a strong family who have adopted a child? Why does ascribing to traditional norms men it is strong.

There are TONS of these traditional marriages which end in abuse and divorce, and tons of nontraditional families doing very well.

Your perception of what is good and bad is myopic, based on your own prejudices.

>>5025754
>Why is that a strong family?
>Why can't two gay men be a strong family who have adopted a child? Why does ascribing to traditional norms men it is strong.
>There are TONS of these traditional marriages which end in abuse and divorce, and tons of nontraditional families doing very well.
>Your perception of what is good and bad is myopic, based on your own prejudices.

Not all traditional families are good. But all non-traditional families are bad, the question is only to which degree. We should strive to make sure traditional families are up to par instead of doing our best to undermine them as is the western goal through which the plan is to create an illusion that non-traditional families are just as good, they're not and never will be. The attack on the traditional family as the best cell of society is trying to do just that. Now stop spouting your devilish nonsense.

>So why you guys so against it?

Because i want a 11 years old submissive wife.

>>5025754
the woman's natural state is to look beautiful for a man. stop being indoctrinated please.

>>5025754
your gf will soon simply want to have a choice of gobbling foreign cocks on the side. i feel for you man i really do, i hope your balls drop sometime soon

>>5025766
Sounds like will-full ignorance to me.

The actual science and research says your wrong, nothing about non-traditional families is any worse than traditional.

Love is the only real thing that matters, and by enforcing your ideology, often times, that means having a lack of lack because you end up failing to process the diversity of life.

I'm not going to waste time on someone who thinks we are trying to undermine the family and we are devils.

Your ignorance is profound.

>>5025770
>>5025777
Immature children.

>>5025779
I don't care for studies published by some devil agencies with clear agenda. Stop using love you have no idea what it means and you're polluting the minds of impressionable kids who might actually buy into your perverted nonsense.

>>5023016
Which is why i, as a anti-feminist, do not care about men's right's activism. Just like the vacuum cleaner and the washing machine liberated the female, full immersion virtual reality and sexbots will liberate the male.

>>5025782

>I don't care for studies

I know, stupid people never do.

>>5025286
Actually, sexists have better relationships.

http://heartiste.wordpress.com/2012/05/30/happy-sexist-is-happy/

Viewing your wife as an "equal" is a recipe for disaster.

Sincere input:

Both sides are riddled with cancer which is why it is best to associate with neither. There are plenty of feminists who 'debate' entirely through name-calling and cartoonish depictions of any who disagree with them as being nothing more than thug villains who are evil purely for the sake of being evil. At the same time, there are just as many anti-feminists who feel and behave the same way.

The problem a lot of people have with feminists is that there are many individuals who are vocal 24/7, with their volume set to 110% and their minds set to maximum childish. This is parody, but a pretty good rendition of just what people don't like: http://thoughtcatalog.com/anne-gus/2014/03/if-youre-an-android-user-youre-a-misogynist/

People don't typically disagree with women's suffrage or equal right to own property. What people are more likely to hate are the court-protected nonbio father child support cases, fat divorce settlements for a spouse who cheated, draconian enforcements of outdated 'child protection' laws which assume females are automatically safer than men, etc.

It's like capitalism vs communism - each side assumes the other has corrupted motivations and they can both point to a few true cases here and there.

>>5025779
Every single socialist thinker since Mazdak in Sassanid Persia has made a point of trying to destroy the family institution.

You're not going to fool me, Schlomo.

>>5025792
no stupid people take quotes out of context. here i'll repeat it for you. published by devil agencies with clear agenda. now enjoy your liberated gf while she chokes on some random's cock just because she wants to have that option toplel

>>5025707
>Here is the issue, we see hairy women as distasteful only due to the learned knowledge that has been propagated by shifting cultural norms. I hardly believe someone two thousand years ago had the same qualms.
Sexual attraction is mostly nature rather then nurture.
Feminists think that primitive standards of being attracted to obese women can be taught to men, but in modern times being attracted to female obesity isn't evolutionarily beneficial

>>5025795
This guy gets it.

Equality is a plague and an effective way to spread injustice.
Don't treat your partner as an equal but respect them.

>>5025795


All the study showed is that people who share the same sexist ideology tend to be satisfied.

http://www.medicaldaily.com/marriage-expectations-based-benevolent-sexism-fail-face-reality-266459

Those same benevolent sexist relationships tend to handle disputes more poorly than more egalitarian ones.

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/womens-benevolent-sexism-can-hurt-marital-satisfaction/

When conflicts arises, they have much higher drops in relationship satisfaction.

Same researcher by the way, Hammond.

>>5025798

2/10, try harder.

>>5025849

>Don't treat your partner as an equal but respect them.

lol, yes, think of yourself as superior, perfect for a good relationship.

>>5025874
the word you're looking for is different not superior/inferior

>>5025882
Different in almost no important way.

>>5025905
you're very naive, the way women and men process things is very very very different

>>5025915
Anon you're probably talking to some little bitch who bends over for a shrieking banshee that used to date other women.

>>5025874
Are you thick?
No one person on the planet is equal to another, it's down right foolish to go around think that people are equal, let alone trying to treat them all the same.

Just because I don't treat everyone as equal doesn't mean that I look down my nose at them, it means I take the individual into account and react accordingly,

>>5025915
please explain the differences

>>5025915

Oh wow, you use "very" three times. Well, I'm convinced.

>>5025905
>>5025874
Feminist detected.

For the love of god, educate yourself.

>>5025936

>believing in god

>>5022487
>In short, certain feminine qualities would replace brutish, violent, masculine qualities.
>men are pigs, they are crime
I was interested up until this point. They started laying out the claim they were making and why it was important, but then took a radical hypocritical turn into fallacy town.
Guess what? Women are violent and competitive too, even when men aren't dominate. It's not a gender or sex based quality.
The only innately masculine thing men do is create semen.

>>5025945
If someone isn't loyal to god, why wouldn't it be loyal to her partner?

>>5025931
too complex to take explain in words. you can start by understanding that men are predisposed to some roles better than women are and vice-versa. leadership is one of those things and women like that a man leads and makes decisions (while taking her opinion into account). not every woman does but most do. most women also enjoy taking care of the home and keeping it tidy. not all but a lot do. there are basic behavior patterns that each gender responds to, generally women like the men to be aggressive, and in charge. and men like submissive, gentle women. not always but that's usually the case. there are a lot of different patterns that make a woman different from a man. on average women are more concerned on getting a valuable man that can provide for her is valued by society at large and takes charge of their life as a couple without entirely ignoring her opinions or wants. women as a rule respond well to an approach where men are going to display their dominance and make them theirs instead of wooing them with gentle delicate manners. just as most men respond well to getting positive reactions from women as opposed to being hit on by women and have her lead the interaction. it's not always like that but it is for the most part. and there are tons of other differences. the mishmashing of roles and the unnecessary emasculation of men from a young age does nothing but result in frustration for both parties. male masculinity should be encouraged. and female femininity should be encouraged with girls. it's terrible for a boy's development to be raised by a single mom or a pussy-whipped or absent father. masculinity needs to be nurtured in a boy and passed through generation to generation. by neglecting or even shaming his masculinity you're only killing his potential in all aspects of life and his happiness. similarly by glorifying things shallow pursuits of pleasure like slut-walk you're killing a girl's future happiness too. instead self-worth should be preached and character development instead of reliance on looks that invariably decline past a certain age, leaving the woman disillusioned after a momentary thrill from a cock carousel.

Why would the class/caste/whatever in power want equality?

>>5025779
that's actually wrong, there was a study done that concluded that children of same-sex parents fared worse than those of hetero parents

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2012/jun/10/study-children-fare-better-traditional-mom-dad-fam/?page=all

>>5025996
It emasculates men, depresses wages via an increase in the workforce, poisons the minds of children, destroys the traditional family, and breeds a generation of spineless little cattle who grew up without a strong father because the televisions said they weren't necessary.

daily reminder that feminism is a symptom of mental illness

>>5025980

You're making claims about cultural behavior and then taking a massive, unwarranted leap in order to assume that men and women are predisposed, biologically I assume, to those particular behaviors.

How old are you?

>>5025980
[citation needed]
[citation needed]
[citation needed]

>>5026036
>>5026044
don't believe it kids, it's out there for you to see

>>5026054

You're making claims about cultural behavior and then taking a massive, unwarranted leap in order to assume that men and women are predisposed, biologically I assume, to those particular behaviors.

How old are you?

>>5026056
i am and i am right.

>>5025926
And you thing women are not equal to me.

Then just run along, you are incapable of understanding the purpose of equality.

Feminism is a conspiracy against women.

The feminists have never aimed to promote healthy women in the world, on the contrary. They saw these women as too well provided for and sought to depose them from their place at the top of the female hierarchy. To this end they have poisoned the healthy woman with false ideas about her identity and slandered her enthusiasm so as to make her adopt their own. The crowning piece of malice was the invention and widespread distribution of hormonal contraception. This is the tool with which the feminists have tried to destroy all healthy, fertile women. They perverted social perceptions of a woman's role in society, created the lie of patriarch oppression, and turned the healthy women away from precisely that lifestyle which for thousands of years has guaranteed her security and prosperity in the world. And while this has been taking place, the feminist have gone to great lengths to find ways of correcting their own sterility, even while defaming the institution of motherhood.

There are two things that a feminist will defend to the death. Can you guess what they are? The full weight of this conspiracy becomes apparent when you understand this.

Firstly: A woman's 'right' to abortion
Secondly: A woman's 'right' to infertility

Credo experto

There is also no such thing as genuine misandry. Misandry is only a more covert form of misogyny. Feminists who claim to despise men are lying: what they truly despise is healthy, fruitful women. But in order to give a discreet vent to this hatred (which otherwise would reflect badly on them and discredit their thesis that men are the entire problem and women are helpless victims) they choose to despise men, who are responsible for empowering these healthy types.

>>5026056
and you're throwing biology completely under the bus because of the idea that plagues the humanities, that everything is a social construct. It's bad enough that the humanities are a liberal hugbox that cherrypick data and draw sweeping generalizations about the human condition from vague and unscientific studies, but when you ignore biology, you ignore that which makes us fundamentally human.
>physically weaker
>has a period
>can become impregnated
>different hormonal balances
Somewhere in there, is it so hard to believe that men and women might actually behave differently on a biological level? I'm not saying society plays no role, but the role it does play is vastly overplayed. Men and women weren't made to equal each other, they were made to complement each other. Women do things better than men in certain respects, men do things better in others. Nobody is chained to these things per say, but it can explain much of human behavior throughout history.

>>5026088
I want to suck your cock and I'm not even gay

>>5025926

And in your dogmatic world women are less equal than men.

I get it, you don't care about equality, just run along then.

>>5025933

Yea dude, the triple threat.

>>5025936

You mean become as ignorant as a christian conservative on this issue? No thanks.

>>5026008

Citing a sham researcher, nice job anon, now do some actual research without just being prone to confirmation bias.

http://thinkprogress.org/lgbt/2014/03/04/3357631/regnerus-department-flawed/

http://www.slate.com/blogs/outward/2014/03/04/mark_regnerus_testifies_in_michigan_same_sex_marriage_case_his_study_is.html

When people like you will do anything to support your ignorance it's just really sad. His research is flawed, and there is a mountain of research that is well done methodologically that says the exact opposite.

Nice try though.

>>5026054
You literally didn't even respond to either of the anons refutation. You failed to support your silly notions with citations, and you don't even understand the extent to which cultural behavior isn't inherently biological differences.

The anon asked also, how old are you, I'm guessing less than 19.

>>5026108
>my research is superior because it confirms what I already believe

>>5026063
Nope, just misinformed and don't understand the difference between inherent and cultural differences.

Finish your bachelors degree, your mind still hasn't developed its critical thinking capacity yet.

>>5026119
im not gonna prove anything to guys who have zero real world experience. it's like reading a book about management versus managing a company.

>>5026097
It's interesting to see that we all like being scientific until it's time to confirm our bias
>Somewhere in there, is it so hard to believe that men and women might actually behave differently on a biological level?
Maybe, but to say that these objective differences directly imply the different tendencies of men and women in today's, western society is a huge, completely unscientific step, you are just doing because you can't see through ideology.
There is not a scientific line between these biological differences and the cultural differences you said.

>>5026122
No, I just happen to be scientifically literate and understand what methodology is sound and unsound.

2/10, try harder.

geez i wonder what kind of thread this will be

>>5026125
when all else fails, call them virgins and run away
Neat

>>5026125
lol, zero real world experience,

top kek mate

let's all go to the party!!!!

>>5026127
Agree with you. It's hard to converse on a topic when people don't have the requisite critical thinking capacity to even examine something on a level other than abiding by sound bites and personal prejudices.

>>5026124
i understand the differences im not going to argue about them with a plebe like you quite honestly because i have several hundreds of real world experiments done by myself and my friends. to that extent im certain that there are inherent differences between genders part of which undoubtedly manifest themselves in cultural differences as well. but to me that is all useless because i've got a long track record of real life experiences and find not much use for theory. go on and read female studies then, i'll stick to my experience which has resulted in both numerous mutually satisfactory sexual affairs as well as gratifying long-term relationships. i'm not going to read some dr. bullshit who makes a living doing "science" in sociology or some equally useless shit. his wife is probably getting it on the side too for maximum lulz

>>5026135
i mean im not calling you a virgin. its just sad to watch sociology isn't even a real science, i'd believe it if it was maths or shit. its like you're talking to a CEO of a billion dollar company and you're arguing stuff out of a management textbook with him. get real son.

>>5026147

you may be stupid now but i think it's possible you come around in a few years

at the very least you'll look back and be thankful this is anonymous

>>5026152
>>5026147
Oh boy, I've been trolled again
>le its not a real science shit
>not knowing what sociology is
>le maximum lulz
>praise scientific discourse; use anecdotal evidence everywhere
>the fact i can get laid makes me right
Seriously, go to your college, or university or whatever and just take a look at the syllabus of a Sociology major. Then get embarassed. Then don't post again on shit you do not know

>>5026175
i think the same of you. although since your view is pretty much identical to common western ideology you'd probably get a cookie if you put your name to it.

>>5026147
I actually read this in a redneck's voice

>>5026185
i did check it at Berkeley which should be hard. it reads like an extremely easy economics version

>>5026097

>If nature had intended equality between the sexes, she would not have made them two.

>>5026200
actually it just reads plain easy. there's only two things that look respectable (but not particularly hard) "evaluation of evidence" "and introductory statistics or logic". rest seems like a breeze

>>5026200
>i'd believe it if it was maths or shit
>extremely easy economics version
You contradicted yourself. Of course your cognitve bias made you see it as "extremely easy economics", but in this step you admitted that it is/can be mathematically rigorous.
There was probably a course named "methods" or some shit like that and some statistics couses. Sociology IS mathematically/scientifically rigorous, but because it has some thinking beyond muh numbers you disregard it entirely

>>5026147
>i have several hundreds of real world experiments done by myself and my friends

omg this is awesome

>long track record of real life experiences

Yea dude, keggers and date rape, you are Ubermensch dude, cereally.

HAHA you're so primitive and all us anons can now bask in your hilarity

>both numerous mutually satisfactory sexual affairs as well as gratifying long-term relationships

What you do with your mom is not various experiments, it's essentially just one case-study, a single anecdote.

Look, we can all tell that you can't into science.

>>5026220
>Look, we can all tell that you can't into science.
this. This dude does not know what science is

>>5022487
>So why you guys so against it?
We don't need "Feminists" or "Male Rights Activists" or anything like that.

We need people who want equal rights, not just rights for the particular group you associate with.

>>5026220
you seem upset that women actually enjoy me.

>>5026217
im an economics major so i'm familiar with what it looks like, that's why i made the comparison. for the record i consider economics barely above a pseudo-scientifical joke

by the way, no need to get upset gents. i've kept a very civilized tone throughout this, no need for hard feelings

>>5026224
I think you misunderstand feminism then.

The goal is equality, their focus might vary from someone who is an MRA, but that's because the issue is large and complex.

You can't do everything at once.

>>5026226

You can't be real, I just refuse people can be as ignorant as you. I don't believe in you.

>>5026235
the sociology part or doing well with women part? help me out brother, i like you

>>5026252
I think you're just a troll.

Try to understand that what you see people doing, is influenced by their culture, not necessarily their gender.

>>5026257
so you're discarding the biology part? you saying men and a woman ain't no different? why men got a penis then?

>>5026098

and now watch as, like magic, the best post in the thread is completely ignored by all the people in the thread, because they are not equal to answering it

>>5026257
Culture includes biological considerations.

>>5026266
well it was more of a statement than a question

>>5026088
saved

>>5026088
>that lifestyle which for thousands of years has guaranteed her security and prosperity in the world
You know that's bullshit.

Birth control is necessary for population control, so's 'bortion. People have been trying to perfect birth control since before the English language, don't think for one second they wouldn't have snatched that shit up if they hadn't invented it earlier.

>>5026307

I'm sorry, are you saying that marriage and having children hasn't been essential to a woman's well-being throughout history?

Because that would be ludicrous.

And the matter is not about population control. It's about changing who is having the babies, and at what age.

We have essentially inverted the natural order, such that the bearing age has become the barren age, and vice-versa.

>>5026321

>natural order
>naturalistic fallacy

What is even life?

>>5026614
not him.

take care when you use that fallacy, just because someone posits something a natural does not mean it is a fallacy.
The protection and provision of women by men has been without doubt to the benefit of our race

My problem with this stuff is that it preaches false dichotomies.

Male sexuality is dangerous. "let's teach our sons not to rape, not our daughters to not get raped". As if it makes sense to pray for some utopia where there will be no frat boy narcissists and dead eyed freaks who rape people simply because they are bad fucking people. As if the reason why the dead eyed narcissistic club chick isnt a rapist herself is because she is a woman, not because, holy fucking shit, SHE DOESNT HAVE A PENIS. I actually think that this is the one thing that that tardfuck freud might have actually been right about. feminists are fucking pissed that is easier for a man to impose his will on a woman and rape her than it is for a woman to impose her will on a man and rape him. No, culture is not responsible for rape. every culture on earth has an undercurrent of violence.

We've talked about misogyny on and on and on. But we're not allowed to talk about the dark side of femininity. That is "problematic". It is "sexist". But it is totally okay to propagate this false dichotomy until the end of time.

In general i have found that most of the chicks that have bandwagoned with 3rd wave feminism are permanently 15 and have cracked out personal lives. Okay that should be enough to discredit it!

>>5026088
god youre nuts. You are definitely not an asset to humanism

feminism is primarily an attempt to sanction the spook of equality, as the rest of political correctness. insane.

>>5022979
>feminism
>libertarian
>a movement that leverages the power of the state to force equality of outcome is somehow libertarian

Feminism seems to see the world as being inherently chaotic (which isn't surprising considering chaos is a feminine attribute, which also explains their disdain of the masculine attribute, order) which needs to be codified and structured by them for it to achieve maximum well being for the people (funny, again, considering feminine chaos that a feminist ideology consists in mainly destroying everything and relinquishing all value beyond the value of no value, which is to say equality, or death).

It still strikes me as absurd that no one in their ranks considers life to be naturally ordered as it is everywhere else in the universe.

>>5022611
>tfw welfare capitalism even pushes crippled cancer patients to become a part of the machinery

It's shit

More female university students than male in the UK: https://www.hesa.ac.uk/content/view/3129/#sex

Who should I vote for if I want to stop feminism?

>>5022487
>So why you guys so against it?
4chan told me it's bad.

>>5028235
Hillary Clinton. Her presidency will be so bad that it will set women's rights back centuries.

>>5022542
>hetero-normative white males

Because of phrases like this

>>5028292
Because you're a giant faggot?

>>5027951
>not libertarian
>RIGHTS 4 EVERYBODY
>U CAN DO WHAT U WANT SOCIETY IS BULLSHIT UR FREE

>>5022542
tumblr feminism definitely has an influence. the Rape, Abuse, and Incest National Network actually made a statement recently about how theyre disturbed that believing in rape culture has become a normalized ideological position

these people are very influential, they are somewhat dangerous, actually

>>5028498
>a statement recently about how theyre disturbed that believing in rape culture has become a normalized ideological position
Im having trouble parsing this
Are they upset at SJWs for inventing 'rape culture', or at the people involved in rape culture

>>5028510
theyre weirded out at SJW's legitimizing this fairly psycho ideological position by spamming it everywhere on clickbait news sites and the huffington post

>>5028519
Yeah, well they're right,. 'rape culture' is so poorly defined as a phenomenon and mechanism its pretty much meaningless. It makes huge sociological and psychological assumptions, treats them as fact and then applies this flimsy structure to an incredibly complex issue.

>>5028530
Im just starting to think that maybe, all along, Drugs actualy WERE Bad, like our parents told us.

If this is what my generation wants to embrace, all in the name of creating some unrealistic utopia, then i cant help but see a connection between that and all the drugs my generation took.

I showed the RAINN article to some people on facebook who believe in rape culture and they basically scoffed at it and said that it was "sociologically short sighted". I just find this shit to be incredibly depressing

>>5028562
I don't think its drugs, I think its just confusion. I mean on the one hand the SJWs are right about some stuff. Being a trans woman of color must suck a lot in our society.

The confusion arises from the doctrine of oppressor/victim, which paints all social relations with the brush of Marx' critique of capitalism. The fact is that that is just not how society works, its much more complicated than that. But they've erected this tree of oppressive forces and planted in their worldview and it makes them reach all kinds of absurd conclusions

>>5028530
>>5028510
>>5028498
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_culture

>>5028530
10/10

>>5028644
I've read the Wikipedia article for rape culture before. I've read actual Feminist theory on the topic, which is why I don't respect it as an idea.

I don't deny that social attitudes excusing rape exist, and if this is what they truly meant by rape culture Id agree with the term. Unfortunately, much like the rest of their terms it doesn't mean that at all, but some ridiculous notion of a web of influence they've done nothing to prove. It's these abstracted systems of cultural force I take issue with.

maybe i should just bandwagon with this shit

Feminism sucks dog balls.

>>5022542
Typical feminist argument

>Women get paid .8 of everyone dollar a man makes.
So why don't companies hire woman and save themselves a shit ton of money

>It's a boys club
Really now? Considering it is now illegal to discriminate based on gender and race, i seriously doubt that.

>FUCKING CIS SHIT WHITE MALE, HELP IM BEING RAPED

Pardon the strawman but it's closer to reality than u think.

>>5028963
Why not try researching the issue?

Experiments with identical resumes sent to job offers show consistently, that those with "black" names get called in for an interview significantly less.

There is also plenty of research showing gender discrimination against women in the workplace mostly favoring men.

>>5022669
>Final intention, judging by Foucault's ideas on culture, would be to make it so each person has shiz own gender or whatever.

Which is completely the opposite of what they are doing. They are really only attempting to extend the categories of essential gender to a few other one that they have molded that they deem it necessary to be medically and socially recognized.

But that's all besides the point. At their core, the ardent internet tubmlrinas are resentful, hateful people who will tear a poor, orphaned man down because he's a cisgender white man who could obviously never know real oppression or real suffering.

These are the kind of people who would tear down a modern Dostoevsky and call him a fat neckbeard who doesn't have any real problems.

I used to be pretty intensely into leftist politics but the kind of people I met who would have their privilege games and oppression olympics eclipse class solidarity or unified struggle really left a bitter taste in my mouth regarding politics.

>>5028597
A misunderstanding of power is definitely at play here. They all seem to subscribe to power as strictly a Weberian model of force/power descending from the top onto the bottom rather than a more murky system in which power is channeled through bottom to bottom through top to bottom through bottom to top and so on.

So of course they attempt to enforce their vision of the world through the power paradigms they think are in play, through a hegemonic control of language, culture, identity, and such.

>>5029098
>>5029074


Both of you are simply misrepresenting the opposition.

It's about overall systemic oppression. Overall black people and women for example have greater struggles than a white male. That doesn't men a white male cannot ALSO have struggles of their own, but that on average the former categories have unique and additional sufferings beyond that of the white male.

All you are doing, is blaming the victim essentially in this case, by saying that the people who have multiple struggles, pretend white male don't have their own issues, but that's not really the case. Everyone suffers, and a white man can suffer much more than a black woman, but for the purposes of social change, we need to look at what's happening systematically.

We aren't systematically targeting white men on the streets for stop and frisk, we don't systematically put them in jail longer for bullshit crimes than white men.

So your arguments are simply strawmen.

>>5029008
>Experiments with identical resumes sent to job offers show consistently, that those with "black" names get called in for an interview significantly less.

If you'd ever had a job, or had a job where you worked with blacks, you would understand why.

Did you even go to college? I've never seen a nigger in class on time, have you?

>>5029243
Well, I guess on /lit we have feminists, we have people who aren't feminists but who have their own ideas, we probably have a lot of covert racists/sexists, but here we have a blatant racist.

I think everyone, regardless of their stance on the issues in question, can all agree, you're just a piece of shit racist scum.

Or a terrible troll.

2/10 got reply.

>>5029253

Piece of shit racist scum?

Nice emotional attack.
The reality is that hiring a black person, on average, is a bad idea if you like having a successful business.

And if you ever had blacks in your university, you would know what I am saying is true. Is white oppression stopping them from setting an alarm clock?

Go fuck yourself you nigger loving piece of shit.

>>5029263
>nigger loving piece of shit.

Ladies and gentlemen, I present to you exhibit A, the kind of person who dresses up in white robes with pointy hats and chants about racial purity.

The kind of scum bag who hates other human beings because of the color of their skin.

The king of mindless animal that cannot see beyond the superficial.

I pity you so fucking much. I pity even more anyone who has the unfortunate luck to become associated with you.

>>5029263
>on average
>trust me, i've seen some at university

you should write a book

>>5029272
look at Africa they still cant get their shit together, black race is a fucking hopeless race.

>>5029303

No, if anyone is hopeless it's ignorant people like you.

>>5029303
>Africa
>they

>>5029239
black people have greater struggles than white people.

but no, modern women are NOT disadvantaged. they have succumbed to solipsism and so they think that the fact that life is not cake means that they are oppressed

>>5029316
>they think the fact that they're oppressed means they're oppressed

>>5029316
I guess if you and I are to have good discourse, we need some common ground.

What do you think oppression is?

To me it's any kind of systemic disadvantage against one group of people and not another. I've linked enough sound studies to show that in terms of income, they are in fact discriminated against.

If we look at the media for example, there is abundant evidence that we present men as more intelligent, better leaders, better scientists, etc, and that has an impact on the perceptions and understandings of their own abilities as they are very impressible growing up.

That in itself creates an unlevel playing field, if we want equality of opportunity we need to critically examine anything that undermines it.

Those are just a couple of examples, but there are many things that are reinforced in an unquestioning fashion, and of course the people most ready to do so are the people that the system gives unfair privilege to.

It's hard to see our subconscious influences, and how they are molded, and enforce the current dominant ideology.

>>5029338
>oh my FUCKING GOD AN OLD FAT GUY STARED AT ME ON THE BUS
>A GUY ON THE STREET TOLD ME TO SMILE. THAT DEFINITELY NEVER HAPPENS TO MEN WHO WALK AROUND FROWNING AND ITS CATEGORICAL PROOF THAT SOCIETY IS OUT TO GET WOMEN. I AM BEING GANG STALKED BY THE PATRIARCHY. IM SO UPSET I MIGHT EAT THIS BAGEL

>>5029351
dude, you know how to caps lock.

It's learning

>>5029239
I lived in a leftist community in which "Die cis scum" was seriously written on the wall. Someone crossed it out because they felt unwelcome in the house and were feeling pressured and dare I say it, victimized. They made this clear after they crossed it out and complained. Older members of the community immediately ganged up on him and forced him to concede to the person who wrote the tag. The guy who felt unwelcome genuinely was sympathetic to identity politics and didn't like that the logic and methodology of oppression and "violence" were being directed towards him. People retorted that since he was a white cis man he obviously could not feel oppressed or persecuted. He tried to speak reasonably and assure them that he attempted to be an ally. A few people then attacked him for even daring to feel like he could call himself an ally.

The next day someone wrote Die cis scum in larger words.

These people are merely playing a power game and will gladly live in a world dictated by "systemic oppression" if it was directed towards their supposed former oppressors.

Made me drop any political engagements I had. Fuck allying with people simply on grounds of essential identity.

>>5029351
good example of a strawman

>>5029343
You have to be able to use discretion, and understand what is oppression and what is just human imperfection that would be difficult to avoid otherwise. We cannot have complete equality.

You say there is abundant evidence that we present men as being better leaders, better scientists, and more intelligent. I say that our culture is anti-intellectual anyway.

The only point i could give you is that our culture sells a heterosexual's male narrative of a woman as a symbolic part of *something* to be attained. But that cultural Narrative is not reflective of sociocultural Reality, where women live lives that are on a level plane with men, where in fact women do well by themselves in higher education and have no problem moving through the rungs of society. Movies are not about people becoming dentists and doing their taxes. This is the point where you realize that cultural criticism is not infallible and is for the most part only useful within the fantasy world of art because media and art mostly just address the most vague ideologies underlying society, in a way that is exaggerated and distorted

>>5029362


That's certainly unfortunate.

However, let's by critical here. I do not agree with their behavior, I think it was shady if your description is accurate. There is however a few points of subtlety that need to be addressed.

That white man experienced great prejudice for a brief period of time. Those people who wrote that experience oppression and hate for a lifetime from a broader political/societal/cultural system. The very powers that be, are against them, whereas this one individual white man only was mistreated by a small group of people, against whom the rest of society will READILY and EASILY take his side. He has the world as his ally, they have only each other.

There's is to my mind a very important distinction between racism and prejudice. Many people misunderstand why a black man cannot be racist towards a white, but only prejudiced, because the black man doesn't have an entire fucking political engine on his side. He can still be a shit fuck to a white man, prejudiced, just as much of an asshole as the white man can be to him, but to categorize that behavior as racist is to MISS the inherent truth of what is actually going on it, the implications, the consequences, and the broader approval.

Lastly, when groups feel they have no where to run, cornered, they lash out. Sometimes it works.

MLK was only largely successful because there were other more radical elements lead by Malcolm X.

So I understand why they might not want those kinds of allies. They might have wanted him as an ally if he responded differently, if he understand that that kind of attack is not against him, but against the broader system that oppresses them.

I hope I'm being clear, these things took me a while to understand. It requires deeper critical examination, sometimes reading and speaking with many various people, to sum it all up in a single post is difficult.

Thank you for at least listening.

>>5029399
>Those people who wrote that experience oppression and hate for a lifetime from a broader political/societal/cultural system. The very powers that be, are against them, whereas this one individual white man only was mistreated by a small group of people, against whom the rest of society will READILY and EASILY take his side. He has the world as his ally, they have only each other

It's supposed to be a home, a safe space for everyone. A community dictated by the majority in opposition to the minority, simply because that minority may have preference in a larger community, has no place in the overall radical community.

These people are not radical. They are driven by the very same logic that dehumanizes, oppresses, and victimizes them. They will not change anything but the symptoms of a disease that is well at work within them.

>>5029392
>complete equality
>more equality

Whether the former is possible or not, we should move towards more equality.

Because it's anti-intellectual, that means we should what exactly? Stop trying?

They aren't a level playing field, I have already proven that. They don't have that same social mobility, why do they have almost no political positions, or positions of power within business? You believe that they are inherently worse as these things?

Movies ARE about dentists paying taxes. Movies are about ANYTHING and EVERYTHING in life. There are movies literally about everything, and cartoons, and comics, and books, can either reinforce a particular ideology(male dominance in most fields) or they can challenge it. Notice how vocal certain people get when a film comes out and a black person is now in a role they usually weren't, or a woman.

When little girls see almost no female representation in leadership, it has an impact on what they think they can do. When they mostly see women being valued for their appearance in the media(not just film) that's how they start to value themselves.

It's not infallible, but there is a mountain of fucking evidence being ignored by the powers that be.

Media and art often addresses the mundane as well.

>>5029419

>These people are not radical. They are driven by the very same logic that dehumanizes, oppresses, and victimizes them. They will not change anything but the symptoms of a disease that is well at work within them.

I don't think so. I know many people, black, gay, etc. That's not true of ANY of the ones I know. Even if on the face of it you might say that certain words of theirs appear to be like that.

Maybe you have meet some that aren't all good, and that can happen in any group. But I personally have never meet these evil people.

I think for the most part, it's just a useful narrative to discredit outside opinions.

As a straight white man I want all the power back to my group.

>>5029074
>I used to be pretty intensely into leftist politics but the kind of people I met who would have their privilege games and oppression olympics eclipse class solidarity or unified struggle really left a bitter taste in my mouth regarding politics.

I wouldn't say being a member of the upper class isn't worth it, because they have a lot of power, but from my observation of their internet circles, anyone who doesn't burn away all of their prole ideas before entering is going to be blackballed anyway, so what's the point? If the only way to wield SWPL power is to become a living vessel of their mindset, why even bother?

Their positions typically benefit the various government-industrial and monied interests anyway. Opposing NAFTA used to be racist.