/lit/ - Literature

Film wasn't really an adaption, it was INSPIRED by the Iliad, it even says that at the end. The movie is Christian morality as hell.

But yeah, Menelaus is pretty cool compared to every other character, especially his brother, but then it's fucking war so he damn well better be.

>>5001836
>it's HIS fucking war

>>5001831

He was too whiny for my tastes. I always liked the trojans more, Aeneas the king of bros and Hector the patriotic defender of his home against the imperialists achaeans were my favorite.

>>5001843
You have to admit that violation the host-guest thing was asking for trouble, that's like the most important code in Homeric morality. Agamemnon was imperialist as hell, yeah, but I'll be goddamned if Paris wasn't a giant fuck up.

And really, Menelaus is fucking cool with Helen considering the times. Do you see how they are in the Odyssey? Menelaus also wants to spare people who ask fro mercy (tho his brother talks him out of it). Menelaus is always ready to fight (until he gets talked out of it), he has more balls than either Agamemnon or Odysseus.

>>5001843
>Hector the patriotic defender
After Book 8 he was the biggest dickhead on the battlefield.
>leaving Sarpedon to die
>letting his success get to his head and ignoring Polydamas
>bragging that he could beat Achilles before running off like a pansy

>>5001831
>How could the film adaptation fuck up a character so badly?

If you're talking about the 2004 film, it has very little to do with the Iliad. They made Aeneas a fucking child, for crying out loud.

Are you talking about Troy? If so, then they fucked up every character in the book. If it were true to what actually happened, Brad Pitt would have spent 99% of the movie either crying or getting pounded up the ass by Patroclus.

Hector would have been even more badass, knowing that he had to fight this faggot Achilles who was being helped every step of the way by the constantly interfering Olympian homos.

>>5001857
menelaus and helen part in odyssey is awkward as fuck. its like everybodys just ignoring what she did, with all the talk about trying to call the people in the horse, with no stronger reactions. probably because menelaus wants to get to elysium, and he needs her for hs wife for that :D

but i guess that even back in the day they knew the real reason for the trojan war was control of crimean fields

>>5001869
>hoping to get Patroclus' body so he could mutilate it and feed it to dogs

>>5001870
And reversed the ages of Achilles and Patroclus.

>>5001872
The relationship between the two in the Iliad probably wasn't homosexual, seeing as how the way Achilles talks to Patroclus is not how a sub would talk to a dom ("you cry like a woman lol"). I think that aspect was read into it later on when it was vogue in Greece.

Achilles wasn't a whiny weeny like people make him out to be. First off, he knows the Greeks can't win that war without him, but he also knows that if he fights, he'll die. You also fail you realize the importance of prize (geras) in relation to honor (tîmê) in Homeric culture; they are sort of one and the same, the former is a physical manifestation of the latter. It's roughly equivalent to taking away someone's medals in today's world. So taking these factors in, Achilles being butthurt as he is, is quite understandable.

>>5001884
Maybe for Agamemnon, but for Menelaus is probably had more to do with not looking like a bitch to all the other leaders.

There's also just the thing that Helen was clearly quite the catch since Troy fought to keep her.

>>5001890
I think he's referring to the melodramatic reactions that Achilles has, like every other character in the Iliad. His crying and tearing of hair got a wee bit excessive after Patroclus' death.

>>5001905
this, he is literally rolling on the ground bawling and calling his mother

>>5001905
I think you're confusing melodramatic of today with cultural expectation of passion back then. Before Greece became infatuated with moderation, that is

>>5001923
Fairly sure that's the point he's making. If the film portrayed his reactions as they were in the Iliad it wouldn't appeal to modern Western audiences.

>>5001930
No, but the film's major departure from the source, was morality, in my opinion

>>5001940
>comma between subject and verb

>>5001905
>>5001913
His lover dies. He suddenly realizes that the option of returning home and leaving a quiet and peaceful life is doomed, because he could never live a happy life without Patroclus. He calls out to his mother the goddess in anger for making him cursed, because Achilles only way to redemption and ever seeing Patroclus is through the tragic and utterly violent death of the hero. He knows his path and the suffering he must undertake.

I'd most likely cry too.

>>5001962
Doesn't seem to by any stigma against crying back then, or at least very little. Now it's, "A dude...crying? For any reason? man, that's corny as hell."

>>5001967
A man must suppress everything

>>5001974
>>5001827

>>5001962
>>5001967

there was always stigma, heroes cant cry because if the weaker people see heroes and leaders crying all is gone to shit and everybody is gonna be confused and panic. plato was against this, but its much older than that. stigma against leaders crying is as old as the indo-european warrior aristocracy

>>5001967
Umm I just noticed I interacted with a tripfag that is not enormously obnoxious.

Great breasts, can stay on topic, doesn't overtly draw attention to herself... A model tripfag. Well done but you're still a fag for using the trip.

>>5001980
We're not talking about Plato's time, we're talking about Homer. There's a huge chasm there, Homeric values are not Platonic values.

Odysseus cries too, when Troy is sung about (he also cries on Calypso's beach). He only hides it because he doesn't want his identity discovered. And that one young buck cried when he got thrown from his chariot. I don't think it was seen as unmanly; the only evidence of that is why Patroclus cries when he's begging Achilles to fight and Achilles says Patroclus is acting like a little girl, and he says that with endearment.

>>5001983
How do you know I have great breasts? Do I know you?

>>5001990
read the last part of the post. plato recognized that crying WAS bad back then and is now for the readers
he was crying while people looked up to him in desparation and in the middle of the battlefield. he was not only crying, but acting like a lil bitch and turning into a child
achilles was chosen by stoics for an antihero for a reason

>>5002005
Plato also thought that the relationship between Achilles and Patroclus was homosexual. He didn't really know what the values were during Homer's time, he only knew that Homer conflicted with his values and thought his values were always Greece's values. But Homer was an aoidos, his storytelling was built on a very long tradition of cultural formula; so to say he was going against the grain is unlikely.

>>5002009
homer wasnt showing in achilles an ideal hero reflecting all his values

btw wasnt it homosexual?

>>5002023
No. There is no ideal character in Homer (notice that Odysseus loves lying, whereas Achilles says he hates liars more than anything else). There is, however, a prevailing value-system, and it does not appear that crying is a violation of it.

I don't think it was. If it was, it was a sort that wasn't popular hundreds of years later, since Achilles, being the younger, would be sub, but he doesn't conform to that social role very well at all in relation to Patroclus.

>Christian morality as hell

>>5001994
Don't panic, I don't know you. There was a thread 'revealing' /lit/ trippers a day or 2 ago.

>>5002031
Granted, Dante was inspired by the Pagan, nine-circled underworld of the Aeneid, but I'd still say hell is very governed by Christian moral judgement

Show the breats, IMO.

>>5002033
what do you mean. how? I haven't sent anyone here any pics or personal info, I don't see how someone could find me

>>5002042
I dunno. Do you own pink ankle warmers / ballerina things, because the girl in the photo was wearing those. About the only detail I remember.

>>5002064
There was nothing of the sort. Someone posted pics of a few broads who ostensibly post on /lit/ and someone poked a guess at one of them being feminister

>>5002066
You picked up all the details did you?

>>5002113
You don't need memory when there's a record

>>/lit/thread/S4997657#p4997691

Right one

>>/lit/thread/S4997378#p4997529

>>5002189
And what's this then?

>>/lit/image/YW1JrWNkInlaV7G-MdNusA

>>5002253
>Vinyl as decoration
Do not want