/lit/ - Literature

>>4879821
Do you consider it utopic? If not, you need to reread it and question your own essentialism and prescriptive notion of humanity.

>>4879842
>The Stranger and Crime and Punishment in the same category as Vonnegut
you fucked up, /lit/

>>4879842
>As I Lay Dying is easier than 2666

What did they feed her.

>>4879873
your mom's breastmilk faggot

>>4879821
You'd like more dystopia, go with Zamyatin's We.
There's a bunch of recommendations in the sticky link. You could go anywhere really.
>>4879830
That is not the way to do it.

>>4880008
Are you a lezzie

>>4880018
budderfly is a boy dummy.

>>4880026
But I jerked off to his/her posts

>>4880041
faggot

>>4879842
Is this in terms of difficulty? Because I'd never consider Blood Meridian on the same level as DFW and Pynchon

>>4879821

Jack London's The Iron Heel is an interesting one, if only for its predictions - some accurate, some not.

>>4880018
Rêve wants me to be a boy, anons want me to be a girl (there's one who wants me to be a tranny even) for abuse or for crushing on, but I made up my mind three years ago to not even care.

>>4879830
Throughout most of the book, I thought that the society was perfect, but I changed my mind after reading the conversation between Mustapha Mond and John.

>>4880143
any more pics of the boy? such a qt

>>4879842
>the highest difficulty level is something you'd read in an introductory lit course as an undergraduate

christ, this really is a board full of highschool kids.

>>4880926
>one image
>represents the entire board

>one anon
>represents the only sensible opposition

>>4880926
>beginners guide

>>4880143
>to not even care
Is that why those webcam pics of you spreading yr cunt are deleted on the reg?

>>4881156
>Implying this is an accurate description.
It was more of a stretching picture. midriff/top of pantie showing picture
Are they posted on the reg? I've seen it ride its way off the board with its thread.
Get back on topic already or let the thread die.

>>4881172
I find it hilarious that you can feign such seriousness and on-topic assertiveness when your contributions to this board amount to masturbation fodder for profoundly sad anons and Marius the Epicurean recommendations.

>>4881187
Have you read it yet? It really isn't all about Epicurus you know. A coming-of-age plot set in Rome. Who could say no? No edgy kid in a silly hat calling people phony...

>>4881172
>Are they posted on the reg? I've seen it ride its way off the board with its thread.
Every time they're posted you ban people.

>>4881729
>I've seen it ride its way off the board with its thread.
she's borderline incoherent

>>4881733
>tfw you get banned for jokingly reposting content she has shared herself
>tfw you otherwise contribute more to the board than butterfly in all ways
>tfw the tolerant progressivist feminist socialist moderator goes full dictator when it suits her

>>4880226
What about the conversation made you change your mind?

>>4881733
>she's borderline incoherent
I see the picture posted in a thread, and it rides to page 10 and beyond. I'm saying it's not an insta-ban to repost. Will this guy below you (probably is you) get banned now? Don't look at me if he does.
>>4881761
Picture: That was you posting as me, turd-burgler.
>tfw you otherwise contribute more to the board than butterfly in all ways
Not that you could ever prove such a thing. Cool for you if there is any truth to it. No one else will know.

Quit subbing already.

>>4881866
>Picture: That was you posting as me, turd-burgler.
That is my point. I got banned for having the audacity to imitate a namefag with some pull. Just get a trip if you don't want that kind of thing.

>>4881884
faggot

>>4881896
You better watch out,
You better not cry,
Better not pout, I'm telling you why:
Butterfly's personal dislike earns you a ban.

>>4881902
I hope I get banned. A lifetime ban is exactly what I need, but she's just a janitor.

>>4881896
Just get it of warosu
>>/lit/thread/S4861469#p4862170

>>4881884
So you don't want banned.
>>4881910
And you want banned.

And I suppose you both don't believe in free will.

>>4881913
Wasn't me. You think I'd repost that?
Did anybody save the cat pictures? Oh no, of course not!

>>4881835
Particularly when John points out that it's degrading to the subjects of the society. I realized that I would much rather have dignity and awareness of my own emotional palette than near-constant happiness resulting from inconsequential drug use and having been taught to enjoy being a piece of a machine.

Did I miss the point?

>>4881966
>Wasn't me. You think I'd repost that?
Why did you post it in the first place? This is /lit/, but it's still 4chan. You can hardly expect camwhoring to be without consequences, especially as a namefag and janitor.

>>4882010
Oh I accept the consequences.
I do regret and have apologized for it.

this thread reminds me why forced anon would improve /lit/

>>4882043
>Oh[,] I accept the consequences.
Is that code for throwing a tantrum every time it's brought up?

>>4882045
>no « Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ »
>no Feminister
>no rêve
>no EvolaKid


Petition mot

>>4882060
Only ones I would miss are REI and Stanford, but they're recognisable by their style of posting.

>>4882060
i'm getting wet just thinking about it
>>4882053
is that all you can think of

>>4882065
Who's Stanford

>>4882008

I would only say you missed the point if you didn't also feel nonplussed about wanting to sacrifice the peace and prosperity of the entire human race in order to acquire an arbitrarily larger amount of 'dignity' and 'self awareness' for yourself.

>>4882053
There's been no tantrum over this. From you did you mean? No.

>>4882045
Give people more reason to be shits to each other and troll their own threads all day. Worst idea all day. Forced IDs would be better.

>>4882067
Stanley Morrison from Albany.

>>4882070
people have the ability to do those things right now tho
the only thing that forced anon would do is get rid of the five or so attention whores here
id's would be necessary of course

>>4882008
Are you aware that this simply means that you value your vanity above all else? Most people don't. They think they're making a noble choice when they say this.

>>4882070
Yes, us namefags truly are the thin gay line between the relative civility of this board and the chaos of /b/ (not that /b/ has forced IDs or anything)

Just think of all the quality posting we would miss out on if it weren't for I, « Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ », EvolaKid, Feminster, and REI. Truly the pillars of this board.

>There's been no tantrum over this. From you did you mean? No.
How are having yes tantrum no? From this? Nay.

>>4882008
plot-twist:

We already live in something like Brave New World, we just don't notice it in the same way as they don't notice it.

>>4882070
>Forced IDs would be better.
Literally go to reddit in a non-memetic manner.

>>4882086
>Just think of all the quality posting we would miss out on if it weren't for I, « Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ », EvolaKid, Feminster, and REI. Truly the pillars of this board.

>>4882093
>Says Stanley

>>4882087
>Not knowing this

Plebs

>>4882070
>[It would only] [g]ive people more reason to be shits to each other and troll their own threads all day.
>mfw
It sounds like you barely understand 4chan and yet you're on here 24/7

>>4882087
"Ketamine 'exciting' depression therapy"

http://www.bbc.com/news/health-26647738

>"It shows that depression is something chemical, that it can be reversed with chemicals, it dispenses for once and for all that you can just pull your socks up."

When I read this article it immediately reminded me of Brave New World.

Nothing against using chemicals to help alleviate or treat mental conditions, but exclusive use seems... I dunno... short sighted?

>>4881966
>Did anybody save the cat pictures?

I think they're somewhere on the archive. I also notice you have unwittingly and not so unwittingly managed to derail the thread, with the help of your common attackers. Let's get over it already.

>>4879821
As Huxley said it himself when he commented on the book years after he finished writing it, it's a deliberately pyrrhonist tale. The only ends are accept the conditioning and forego any idea of individuality as we currently value it, or go live in a wild place where there is no rule of law. I think it does a good job to question the tensions of our contemporary societies, and it's an interesting (if not so realistic) work of prospective.

Animal Farm and 1984 are commonly associated with it, for obvious, you can try them. Farenheit 451 as well, all three have their own way of exploring a (apparently) daunting possible future. Phil K Dick also has interesting examples of dystopic societies, although most of the time the main issue is their degree of reality.

You could also be interested in philosophical work on the structure of society, be it reflexions on how to make a better society (Thomas Moore's Utopia, Hobbes's Leviathan, Locke and Rousseau for the social contract, Montesquie, Diderot and Beccaria on the principles of law and justice, Rawls for political liberalism...) or analysis of social behaviours and the underpinnings of social practices (think of the French moralist like Montaigne, Pascal, La Rochefoucauld, La Bruyère, or the "immoralists" like Nietzsche).

>>4882110
It only seems short sighted in a reductionist way because all your life you are told that there is more than there is. Our coming to terms with this is traumatic, but that doesn't make it less sensible.

>>4882119
Enjoy your ban

>>4882133
In the sense that consciousness and everything associated with it is material? That coming to terms with that is traumatic?

>>4882079
>>4882069
From an entirely logical perspective, I can understand why the general benefit of humanity as a collective is better than mental freedom.

>>4882119
>The only ends are accept the conditioning and forego any idea of individuality as we currently value it, or go live in a wild place where there is no rule of law.
I think this relies solely on the sort of naive Rousseauian notion that the 'wild man' is any less conditioned when he is actually merely differently conditioned.

If you were to differ in levels of 'conditionedness' at all, I'd guess you could somewhay of a case for the tribal person to be more completely the product of his surrounding culture than modern 'civilised' man or even the homo fordus of BNW.

>>4882149
Wouldnt that depend on what you consider benefit? Maybe the greatest benefit (Good) is freedom?

>>4882149
What benefit's humanity? Art? Physical safety (i.e. peace)
I'd recommend you check out Childhood's End, OP, by Arthur C. Clarke

>>4882143
Yes, but not only that it is material, but that it is not 'owned' by us.

>>4882135
''fuck you''

>>4879842

At least use book covers with readable titles - what's the one to the right of gaddis?

>>4882196
http://lmgtfy.com/?q=andrej+bely+penguin+classic

>>4882165
>>4882156
The society of the book is well composed and very stable. It simply allows humanity to be at peace, and I think that is the perfect state for humanity. Freedom, I believe, benefits the individual.

>>4882213
Being at peace benefits the individual more than freedom as well. In fact, a lack of freedom is only diagnosed by those who aren't at peace. Freedom is always to an end, people cry for freedom because they desire to do something they can't under current circumstances. If current circumstances provide you with everything you desire, how could you possibly want freedom beyond that? The freedom to do things you don't want to do? Freedom is absurd when regarded as something worthy in itself.

>>4882151
Well, there's certainly this opposition with a state of hyper-civilization where everything is controlled and a primitive "state of Nature", while in reality hunter-gatherer living in the jungle already have rather complex social structures.

I think this is just more proof than BNW is mostly a thought experiment. An interesting, well fleshed-out thought experiment, but not really an efficient prediction of our future. It's not even supposed to be that.

>>4882213
Thought experiment:
Say everyone in the world could somehow be sustained, but immobile, and given constant amounts of morphine (or some euphoria inducing drug).
Everyone would be healthy and living long, very peaceful lives. Total happiness and peace, no pain. But no decision, action, discrimination, etc.
Would this be an ideal society?

>A thread recovering.
Not on my watch.

>>4882233
>>4882244

>>4882242
I'd say it would be nearly ideal. The one thing better is not existing at all.

>>4882244
>announcing reports
enjoy your ban

>>4882298
>Banning the unbanable
Enjoy you're ban?

>>4882233
I willingly look for freedom, and it isn't a peaceful job. I am not content with peace.

>>4879849
The litcore is ranked on difficulty to read, not greatness/prestige/whatever

>>4882304
It's like yin and yang. Everything needing a balance

>>4882233
>Being at peace benefits the individual more than freedom
But it restricts the mind. We're capable of experiencing so many different emotional states that to be in a constant state happiness or peacefulness is a waste of time and life.

>>4882242
What I said applies to this too

>>4882235
I agree. The most important thing I indirectly got out of it are the possible flaws in an essentialist approach of what it means to be human as proponed by those who consider it a dystopic work. Most people have a kneejerk "this is inhuman" response to the BNW society, but the interesting part lies in defining what this humanness is that they consider to be lacking.

>>4882408
>But it restricts the mind. We're capable of experiencing so many different emotional states that to be in a constant state happiness or peacefulness is a waste of time and life.
What's wrong with unnoticed waste if it's unproblematic to the waster? Also, why assume that it's inherently good to experience a wide range of phenomena rather than an agreeable one?

>>4882304
There's no such thing as not being content with peace, because the lack of contentedness is itself a sign of not being at peace. It's like saying that you don't enjoy pleasure. The enjoyment is included in the very definition of pleasurableness.

>read BNW
>post on /lit/
>don't realise at some point you must love butterfly
>not realising all this time you were trying to write her/him/it poetry
it's like you all missed the socialism

>>4882425
Well, you're right. I still feel a bit uncomfortable with accepting that though.

ITT: bnw is completely misunderstood

>>4883361
>le authorial intent visage

soooo, how do you guys feel about Antic Hay? I like it very much, lost my shit when the guy put on a beard, fucking hipsters.

>>4883361
how so?

>>4882079
>>4882149
What differentiates us from, say, an Ant colony? We have a level of intelligence unparalleled (theoretically) by any other species on our planet. Why squander that on "survival," when we can use it on "survival and"?
Without the desire to wonder what life means (inb4 life is meaningless), there is no meaning to life (inb4 circular reasoning). The part of us that makes us special is the struggle. In that society, there's no struggle, there's only soma. Peace means nothing without appreciation for peace. Besides, I'd rather have freedom than be at peace.
Life is fun when there's pain.

If you disagree, chances are you do believe there is no meaning to what we do, and you're probably very cynical. Meaning is where we want it to be. If I want meaning to be in experiencing life and Loving it, then that's where it is. If you find meaning in God, then that's where it is. If you find meaning in nothing, then the only person you have to blame is yourself and you would perfect for the nothing-life because you've no desire to look farther. Not all of us are like that.

Alternatively, don't listen to the fuckshit on the internet he (I) doesn't(don't) know what he's(I'm) talking about.

boobs

>>4883952
Seriously

Imagine sticking your head between those

>>4883876
>implying anyone gives a shit about what your personal meaning to life is.
>implying that 'intellectual' struggles are the only ones worth having.
>implying that Bernard didn't struggle to fit in, that helmholtz didn't struggle to wonder and create and ultimately was allowed to in freedom, that Mustapha didn't struggle to maintain the best possible society he could.


Spoken like a spoiled brat who has never had any serious struggles in their life.

>>4883966
Spoken like an 8th grader who just discovered Nietzsche. Oh wow. We can insult each other. What's that do again?

The point is that meaning is personal. If it's left up to one person to decide everyone's meanings, there won't be any.
And the struggles we have once we are comfortable are intellectual ones. Check that Maslow shit, man. Once one layer is dealt with, secured, we move to the next one. Or look at history, in times of peace, we enter Golden Ages. Every time there's a war or a plague, we go back down to more basic needs. Helmhotz struggled to wonder, and then he got the chance to wonder and went on to probably struggle intellectually. As did Bernard, once he gave up trying to fit in. Mond's "struggle" is him doing his job. The same thing as Bill Gates doing his.

People without choice have no reason for being. And if you're argument is that people shouldn't be, maybe you should realize that not everybody has the cynical world view you do and that you're the reason the world seems shit and we should all die, because that's the way you view it.
And then 1984 happened

>>4883957
faggot

>>4880143
So you're simply admitting that you're a degenerate now?

Is this what the liberal media calls "progress"?

>>4884006
I don't completely disagree with you; you have something but it isn't fully formed and the things you are writing have breaks in logic.

> If it's left up to one person to decide everyone's meanings, there won't be any.
That is a contradiction. But I know what you mean. The only meaning of life with any value is one that you chose. Being forced into a way of life goes directly against human nature. The thing you're missing is that in BNW no one is being forced. They're being tailor made for a purpose, and then taught exactly how that is they're purpose. And everyone agrees, yes, that makes a lot of sense, and they are happy to accept it.

To you, because you have found profound fulfillment by tackling intellectual problems, you seem to think, "hey this is the most satisfying thing I've experienced and the only way I could have ever gotten here is with way more freedom than they have in BMW."

But no one minds not having that choice because their life is great. The only reason I can imagine for not wanting to be gifted the entire maslow hierarchy at birth is because it would lead to boredom. But there is plenty of work, plenty of entertainment, and plenty of soma to never get bored. So what's the problem?

Honestly I just think that you think your meaning of life is the best one, and you want everyone to have to freedom to find it. Which is extremely ironic.

>>4882352
Either way, Vonnegut is leisurely reading for a middle schooler.

>>4884221
I was actually considering the choice thing. Unfortunately, someone with Freedom chooses Freedom, someone with Peace chooses Peace. It's generally impossible for us to know both.
And you're right, there's irony there. Allow me to try to be more clear.
People should be able to tackle these questions no matter their background. What's horrifying about BNW is that they're made that way. I know, most people become the background they were raised with, but I think it's important that we can also escape it no matter who we are, or at least try, which the Gammas and Deltas certainly can't do. I advocate that people should be allowed to choose their struggles, I guess, if you see what I mean.

>>4879821
I didn't reply to this yet. People keep telling me to read We but I haven't found it at bookstores.
Catch-22, I feel, is a great read as well.

>>4884107
>So you're simply admitting that you're a degenerate now?
I was challenged by anonymous. This is my way of anonymity. "Debby"
Hope to see you around.