/lit/ - Literature

The same reason religious people think their religion is a natural, normal thing. They were raised to it.

MOST PERSONS –OVER NINETY PERCENT (90%) OF HUMANS ALIVE AT ANY ERA– ARE IGNOBLE.

Nothing feels better than owning someone.

It's in the Bible.

>>4871545
You own a sheep and it gives you wool.
You own a horse and it takes you places.
You own a man and they will do whatever you can do.
Slavery is just a form of domestication.

Children are slaves. They are owned and do not have freedom.

Humans are objects like any other

>>4871545
>implying slavery isn't alive today more than ever
>implying that capitalism isn't a euphemism for slavery

>>4871569
capitalism is evolved slavery

you just now have to pay your slaves a living wage and let them live in their own houses on their own property

>>4871545

Can you explain why infanticide through exposure has undergone periodic acceptance, and can you do so in a way which would not also justify slavery or any other act of inhumanity?

>natural
unless you are religious, there is no way you can argue that liberty is part of human nature
>normal
normal is defined as that which is the norm, If everyone owns slaves, slavery is normal

mankind's history is very violent, slaves were a prize from war.

asserts dominance if you hold slaves from a city you just defeated.

>>4871545
Because slavery has existed much longer than the idea that slavery is bad, and slavery still exist today. It is a natural thing. A natural and normal thing is not always good. Democracy is higly unnatural for one, does it mean that it's bad?

>>4871610
Democracy on a large scale is bad though

Freedom is slavery

>>4871615
and the alternative is what exactly?

>>4871621
Republicanism

>>4871624

We already live in a democratic republic you mouth-breather.

>>4871644
when did i say we didn't you fucking retard?

>>4871545
The oppression of the primary producers of surplus by the exploiters of surplus; those exploiters incidentally producing the historically most transmissable culture; is naturalised by ideology.

>>4871659
Name a culture that has never used slaves.

>>4871564
do you support child liberationsim?

>>4871670
The Tarahumara.

I think it's because there used to be an "us and them" feeling. We fought many wars, conquered many regions, took many prisoners (pretty much all nations at some point). We didn't have access to their literature, we didn't experience much of their culture, globalization wasn't what it is now, so we had no empathy for them. They were others. Why would you feel for a black man that comes from some far away place that doesn't even have great stone buildings. They were savages, so to speak.

>>4871571
>own houses
>own property
Funny guy.

>>4871545
Because morals are subjective you fucking mongoloid.

>>4871714

Hat to burst your bubble but that's still a very common feeling.

>>4871725
thread/

>>4871569
>>4871571
>paying people money to do work being at all like slavery
>muh wage slavery

I remember when I was 13.

Shirking responsibilities to others on a mass scale: why should I do the housework when I can get someone to do it for me? Now it's evolved to paying people to do it but the wages quite often make it a variation on a theme rather than freedom.

Different economic system.

>>4871734

>people work for the bulk of their time
>get paid barely enough to cover the cost of living

Yeah, I remember when I was American and thought Capitalism was great too.

>>4871728
That wasn't /thread, that was pathetic. Declaring moral subjectivity is poor accounting for taste.

>>4871747

Cause they work shit jobs. No employer is forcing them to take the job. They chose the job knowing how much it paid. I ain't American, though. So try harder. I live in a country where I get paid $25 an hour to stand behind a counter. Over $50 on public holidays.

>>4871569
You don't even need to include wage slave. Literal, honest to god old fashioned slavery is more alive than ever.

>>4871753

>I ain't American, though. So try harder.

American isn't a nationality, it's a mindset, as displayed by:

>No employer is forcing them to take the job.
>They chose the job knowing how much it paid.

>>4871753
>nobody is forcing them to take shitty pay and conditions
>but if they choose not to they starve lol

MURICA! FUCK YEAH!

>>4871765
That mindset is why I will be quitting one of my jobs today.

>>4871765

It's true though. If you think getting paid to work at a shit job is anything like slavery, then you are a fucking moron. Slaves didn't get paid. Slaves were property. They were beaten and raped. Their lives belonged to their "employers".

Even a trailer trash redneck who gets $5 an hour in some shitty diner is living better than a slave.

>>4871753
How are you still naive enough to think that the job market is like shopping at a mall for the one you like the most?

The clock is ticking, you are hungry, there is no welfare and the only thing you can do is either steal and get beaten to shit, locked up and physically punished or work in that one factory that has made most of the village dependant on it. This is being forced to be taken a job by all means. If you want to do the whole free choice sophism, you need to create a situation where not working doesn't come with starvation included. Only when you implement sufficient basic income you can say that people are truly free to work as they please.

>>4871775
>Slaves didn't get paid
lol murican education.

>>4871770

You don't have to be part of the system, child. You don't like being a "slave", then how about you just quit your job and go live in the forest.

>>4871779
>quit your job and go live in the forest.
You gotta be kidding me.

>>4871777

It's work. You get paid according to your work. Maybe some people are just too stupid to get a real job.

>>4871775
That's a false argument because you're comparing different times with different standards of living. A 19th century slave actually usually had it better than his 'free' companions.

>>4871779
I'd rather live on the beach.

>>4871782

>You get paid according to your work.

Nope.

>Maybe some people are just too stupid to get a real job.

Nope.

Keep trying, America.

>>4871785
>I'd rather live on the beach.
lol that's illegal.

>>4871782
Did you read my post at all or are you just content to mumble the few sentences your superiors thought you over and over again?

>>4871783
>A 19th century slave actually usually had it better than his 'free' companions.

/pol/ revisionist pls go

>>4871782
Did you read my post at all or are you just content to mumble the few sentences your superiors taught you over and over again?

>>4871788

Why do you believe that a factory owes a near-homeless man anything? They need employees and they are willing to pay them the going rate for their work. Being hungry and needing money for food and shelter is not the same as being chained and beaten and dragged to a plantation to work or get beaten again.

>>4871782
>People like this ACTUALLY unironically exist

This guy might be joking, but some of these people aren't.

Social relations and economics. Remember that slavery was also viable for paying debts.

>>4871775

During the Industrial Revolution, destitute workers were kept prisoner in workhouses in tiny rooms filled to capacity. The girls were raped by their employers and by the overseers. People frequently lost limbs and lives in the machinery, and allegedly you could tell someone was working class by the fact they were deformed. People died before their forty-fifth birthday and 'free' men lived in slums that a plantation slave would have lol'd heartily at.

>>4871800
My mother and two of my sisters exist with this mindset. Sometimes I wish they could see how wrong they are.

>>4871806

So how is this relevant to some fat single mother who works at walmart?

>>4871817
Walmart pays subpar wages so that people working at walmart can only buy at walmart driving other businesses out of business making their workers in turn work at walkmart increasing the business of walmart.

>>4871803
Slavery could also be punishment. We know this today as "paying your debt to society". And when you can pay off a debt, you can be free.

>>4871810

You probably live on one of your sister's couch because they are rolling in dough and your mother is never home because she's fucking high class man-whores in the bahamas half of the year. Your mother and sisters have the mindset that makes one rich.

You're poor because you believe you're a slave and you want aunty government to help you fix your problems.
>Muh employer forced me to eat mickey Ds cause they don't pay me enough for muh neuroscience work down at the mattel plant and now I need the government to fix muh diabeetus. I am just like a black slave stolen from africa!

>>4871822

That's why they are walmart and their employees are trash. You have to do more than move your strong arms to get rich. You have to use your brain.

>>4871828

If this wasn't so obvious, it might be funny.

>>4871828
>Being this American

>>4871834
>this /lit/ interpretation of libertarianism

Why am I not surprised that /lit/ knows nothing?

>>4871831

This isn't about getting rich. It's about not being exploited, but most people ITT don't know the difference.

>>4871831
The easiest way to get rich is to be born rich.
You really don't need to use your brain.

>>4871836
Well most people in this thread think that you get rich by working, which is pretty hilarious.

>>4871836

But you're getting paid for your work. Sounds like trade to me.

>>4871841

Yeah, all those black rappers from shitholes and those athletes and all those kids in silicon valley. All that old money. Please, this is the lamest internet liberal argument ever. There are too many exceptions to this and the richest tend to be self-made.

>>4871800
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1yTTEezGZuU&list=UUisT_5ZXMJnvovsgEp_NzRg

you have no idea.

>>4871828
Actually I'm sitting on a pile of cash after my neighbor backed into my car one morning. I pay rent, and work two jobs. What about you?

>>4871848

I own a house, work one good job. Only problem in my otherwise perfect life is no friends. But they're overrated. If you had less friends, you'd be as baller as me.

>>4871835
You sound as ignorant as the post he was responding to. Samefag?

>>4871849
>implying possessions and occupation define your worth as a human

Wow, I actually feel bad for you.

>>4871852

No, I'm just not a moron. Libertarianism has never been about being assholes. Everyone's political belief sacrifices something and libertarians are aware of the sacrifices that would be made for maximum liberty.

>>4871857

Don't. You can go back to your shitty job and complaining with your friends about how you're all slaves (funny how only middle class white kids say this). I think I'll go fuck some slut tonight.

>>4871848
Do you pay rent to your sisters or your mother?

>>4871863
Yep. It's because I'm clearly a loser for not owning my own home by now.

>>4871545
Same reason you think being a filthy prole is a natural normal thing :^)

>>4871844
> all those black rappers
You mean like drake who was a child actor?
> athletes
Only if they are lucky to be talented in a popular sport. If they are not football/hockey/basketball/baseball/soccer they are probably gonna be middleclass even if they are at the top (and often have second jobs).

> kids in silicon valley

Oh you mean like the kid who was at harvard and got the idea from the millionaire twins with his rich jewish-brazilian friend?

Or do you mean like dennis ritchie? Who invented c laguage and was middle class?

Come on you clearly have no understanding of how life works and you get a coupe of famous outliers and you don't see that they were just the lucky lottery winners. Even in the middle ages commoners managed to make it to nobility, but that does not mean that there was social mobility.

>>4871844

>Sounds like trade to me.
>the richest tend to be self-made.

Conservative can't even keep their message straight in the space of a 4chan post.

>>4871861
You sound intellectually fulfilled.

You lot are terribly fucking boring.

>>4871861
Man, you're really angry about this. Does that empty home reflect the emptiness inside yourself? Have fun with that slut, keep in mind she is likely of indiscriminate tastes

>>4871857
>letting the bourgeoisie distract you with this kind of bull

>>4871849
I own a condo apartment in ny, I have friends and I'm engaged to a girl who loves eastern european literature and modernism.

You don't need to be a piece of shit to enjoy some economic prosperity.

>>4871882
>I'm engaged to a girl who loves[...] modernism

My condolences.

>>4871859
Just because you don't think you're being an asshole doesn't make you not an asshole.

Also acknowledging a problem exists is not a cure for the problem.

>>4871859
Once had it out with a libertarian here. He of course advocates a weaker govt. and advocated a wiping away corporations THEN we could have more direct decentralized democracy. He never got back to me on the merits of that plan.

Well, I'm off to drag my sciatic back and torn rotator cuff arm to work today.. Oh don't forget to pay for the as yet undiagnosed asthma tests afterwards... Not even kidding. Have a good day.

>>4871885
I'm actually quite happy.
She also like genet and duras and bataille.

After work we are reading ovid together now and next we decided to start dante. She is looking into the various translations because being italian myself she wants one with the original text so that I can comment on the accuracy.

>>4871871
>Drake
Yeah, Drake is representative of rappers. That's why people give him shit all the time. Retard.
>Only if they are lucky to be talented in a popular sport
Talent is a myth. Behind it is hard work. You can make anyone good at a sport unless they retarded or have palsy.

>>4871893

Come on, man. All politics is idealistic. Marxism is as bullshit as libertarianism and plenty of people feel okay believing that.

>>4871900
>reading together

Yuck. Does she read out loud to you like a baby?

>>4871900
your scenario sounds made up.

Habitual liars are a 4chan staple.

>>4871908
>Yeah, Drake is representative of rappers. That's why people give him shit all the time. Retard.

They give shit to drake because he is candid enough to admit how he got to where he is.
Go look at some rap history and you are going to find two things: drug money or mtv money.
I mean if it really was about talent you would have to explain why the richest musicians are actually not the most talented musicians.

>Talent is a myth. Behind it is hard work. You can make anyone good at a sport unless they retarded or have palsy.

This is laughable. Tennis academies, boxing gyms and training facilities are full of people that train 12 hours a day and most of them won't make it to being pros, let alone the top pros that do millions.

>>4871914
It's poetry, it's good when read aloud (some would say even that it was meant to be read aloud).

We take turns anyway.

>>4871916
It's not made up, but of course I'm painting it in a better light than it actually is.
But factually it is all true.

>>4871921

Cause they are too late. The ones who make it into the pros were trained by their parents first.

I think a lot of people would prefer living in a sort of evolved slavery, with a lot of life security and enough leisure time. I'd sure prefer that to a risky future with no job.

>>4871944
You need to really shut up and stop pretending like you know what you're talking about.

>>4871936
Conservatives:
They believe in genetic determinism on every level except sports.

>>4871908

Then why am I able to do certain things exceptionally well with no prior practice or training?

>>4871958
Because you're ignorant enough to believe you're exceptional

>>4871545
Because some people being better than others and being blessed with better opportunities (which are both the same thing really) is a natural, normal thing.

>>4871958

Because you're dreaming.

>>4871916
For example:
Mortgage is really a bitch. I live in constant fear of being fired because my boss is a moron and an asshole and he blames his fuckups on the people he manages and doesn't get fired because he has some family connection with a couple of big clients.
My mother is pressuring me in starting having children immediately sending me all these articles about how if you wait there is big chances that your kids will be born with this deficiency or that deficiency or autism. Meanwhile neither me or my fiancee want kids now and even if we wanted we have no ideas where we will rise them since we are in nyc and there is no space.
I'm bitter because I really wish I had gone into the academia and have pursued my phd in the humanities instead of getting this boring job that doesn't do anything other than making money for people that already have money.
I try to write and I get constantly rejected, I'm realizing that I will never be a good writer and this leaves me bitter.

stuff like that

Talent is genetic. Sorry that upsets some of you so much.

>>4871958
When I was 13 I thought I was going to be a pro cs player because I was kicking my friends' ass.

Then I tried and I realized that I was just mediocre and what looked like talent was just them being inept.

>>4871545
Apply the concept of property to people and there you have it. Conquer a foreign people and take slaves as payment.
Also, throughout history there had to be some way to deal with law breakers. Law wasn't always centrally administered by the state and prior to relatively recently there were no prisons (think how expensive incarceration would be to any pre-industrial people). In most cultures, punishment originally developed to compensate the one who was wronged. Someone does something that really hurts you, but they cannot pay, then maybe you give them longer to pay or maybe there's no hope that they will pay and you take payment in the form of coerced labor. Of course if you take someone as a slave to pay off his wrong to you, then you ought to be able to sell him as well, because you may not want or need another slave.
Reading Bruce Benson the Enterprise of Law right now and the first few chapters mention this stuff.

>>4871972
>yfw people called me a talented painter in school because my mom used to paint and showed me some tricks when I was young

>>4871779
They wouldn't allow it. You can't hunt without permission, can't make fire to cook your prey. We can not live outside of the system, because of all sorts of regulation.
We do not have a choice.
Anyway, why is this thread here ? I understand that this place gathers more "intelligent" people than /pol/ who's mostly trolls, but this doesn't have anything to do with literature, does it ?

>>4871989
Not that guy but that's also part of what being genetic implies.

Talent is causal, let's put it that way. Your roots are significant in the matter.

>>4871545
Ask the descendant of a plantation slave owner anything

Also, the other side of my family owned slaves

>>4872002
That's moving goalposts and you know it. Last time I checked genetic implied "not subject to change".

>>4871779
You mean the same things slaves could do back in the day? Good job proving his point.

>>4871779
>You don't have to be part of the system

>>4871799
Factory owners do not owe poor people anything. On the other hand, poor people do not owe factory owers the privilege of not getting their shit taken. I'm all for a "it's all in the game" approach, but that doesn't stop short of violence. If the position of the factory owner is legitimate, then so is that of the thief, the murderer, the robber and the rapist.

>>4872006
Well once you have your origins set in place the present outcome isn't really subject to change outside what your origins make you capable of.

>>4872011
>slaves could just quit anytime and go do something else

Then they would not have been slaves, retard.

>>4872023
that's his point, retarded

>>4872023
The choice is work or die, so same shit.

>be employee in a shithole without welfare
>quit job
>have no money
>lose home (and future employment chances)
>die

>be slave
>quit aka. run away
>have no money
>have no home anymore
>die

>>4872017
>Factory owners do not owe poor people anything.
He's going all out.

>>4872031
>Implying that you can't just go off into the wilderness and have your own hut and grow your own food

I would love to live off the grid myself but unfortunately I've completely addicted to the internet pornography and I can't stop.

For a literature board, there sure is a lack of reading material in here.

>>4872038
This again applies for slaves. Your point?

>>4871545
>why people
And there's your mistake.

>>4872031
It's not the same fucking thing.There's a big difference between having to work to survive and you're owner killing you if you decide to quite.

>>4872060
What so big about it? I doubt the person dying cares if it was because he/she's killed by the owner or out of starvation.

>>4872031
>don't breathe
>die
it's like ur a slave to air. omg luk at me being dum

>>4871958

Such as? This is 4chan, so i'm assuming you're just exceptional at something that comes from book learning.

>>4872039
It would be worth your time reading Robert Hayden's 'Middle Passage'. It is about slavery, reflecting on both the past and present day. His style is also hugely influenced by T. S. Eliot.

>>4872060
>implying there aren't different kinds of slavery

Wow, it's like you're actually a dumb hick.

>>4872069
How does it refute the point again?

>>4871545
Look at how this artist tried to romantise slavery, appealing to the dick. How shameless.

>>4872065
How are you this dumb? In one scenario someone is being murdered for going against the wishes of his master. In the other that person is dying because unlike every other living organism on this planet they couldn't pull their own weight and ended up starving as a result.

>>4871908
Sport is one of the examples that genetics does play a fairly big part.

>>4871545
"People throughout history" did not see "slavery as a natural, normal thing."

>>4872086
In the other scenario they end up dying because they went against the wishes of the capitalist master aswell. It just took longer.

It's still boils down to work or die.

>>4872094
Only insofar as ability, not behavioural tendency (though tendency is then influenced by ability and general makeup, eg. people whose eyes are too close together are generally very scheming people so as to compensate for their lack of visual control over their surroundings).

Hi, lol. Sorry I wasn't following that conversation, it's just that whole "human nature" bit is so, so wrong for the most part.

>>4871545
Too many assumptions; please reword into a proper investigative question.

>>4872101

It makes me chuckle, when people forget about their own mortality.
This is a fine example.

In strict necessity, it boils down to die. The rest is accessory, or so it seems.

Unless, there's a secret society of imperishable beings, that secretly master, play with, and use everyone else; because eternity is extremely boring, and self centering, would drive mostly anyone insane.

>>4872105
Small-handed people wont be overly given to crimes of passion, etc., lol.

>>4871545
it suited their purposes. there isn't much else to it, really. It was convenient, so they did it. Then someone decided it was unacceptable and everyone followed.

>>4871545
Because it is natural for those who are weak and dumb to submit to the strong and intelligent.

>>4872134
The multitude of the weak and dumb and easily over power the strong if lead by a cunning liar fooling everyone.

>>4871545
wouldbuy/10

>>4872120
This is a very lame point of view.

>>4871679
I support the death to retarded parents.
I actually had a mother who told me calling someone a fool was going to send me to hell because it said so in the Bible.
You can only imagine the shit that went on.
She didn't believe the Atom bomb was real.
She didn't believe scientists were real.
School was the tool of the anti christ.
The world was ending every day
and thunder was Satan trying to raise up from Hell and if we didn't pray enough during the storm then he would win and we would be sent to hell to burn forever...

.....I hope that bitch dies in the most painful way imaginable for ruining 20 years of my life.

>>4871545


fuckboy>>4871563 has it right.

but slavery is still seen as a natural, normal thing. the only difference is a marked tilt toward the hypocritical. implicit slavery, its true nature diluted by the murk and watery dregs of supposed social contract, lives on.

hence my paying taxes so that tyree can have money to buy crystal meth

>>4872141
Sure, if you're dumb enough to let your slave talk without being granted permission.

>>4872144

that's a very lame retort you fucking terminally lame faggot

>>4872134
It is normal to submit for might.

>>4872152
Is your house an impregnable fortress, anon? Do you generate your own electricity, have your own private water supply, etc.? No, you don't. But that order to society is perfectly okay, it's just damn these taxes! Consider your paying taxes as paying off the poor, providing them with enough so that they'll respect what social order provides you otherwise.

>>4872145
How is this even possible? Please be trolling.

>>4872155
I gave you a more substantive reply: >>4872166
Forgive me that I'm not so very interested in delving into the psychology behind slavery at the moment. Go read some Thoreau perhaps.

>>4872144
Why is it lame? do you prefer an essay's worth of rationalization about exploiting people? That's the reason slavery was a thing: because it got shit done.

>>4872170
He is.

>"natural"

>>4872176
Meh. There's more to it than that --a mountain of existential consideration, in fact.

>>4872176
Actually it has been proven that people work better when they get paid salary and can contribute to the economy. Our current society produce far more wealth than any slave society every did.

>>4872145
So you do live in hell, after all.

>>4872187
Then post about it.

>>4872187
I mean "I'm going to make slaves of these people" is certainly not the default; rather, it's an end, just as the unacceptability of slavery is.

>>4872192
Slave owners weren't in it for the society, but for themselves. It didn't matter what the society did as long as they had someone that worked their crops and build their palaces for free.

>>4872198
Do you love your family, anon?

>>4872201
So you agree that slavery doesn't contribute to overall improvement of a society?

>>4872152
what the...?!
bah god he's back king!
i can't believe my eyes!

>>4872203
Yes, as that is what clearly transpires from my previous post. Of course, if you were to expand on this, bear in mind that we should define what we mean by society. Society can be improved by slavery if the slaves aren't included in the society.
>>4872202
I do.

>>4872223
>I do.
And is that something base, incontrovertible? And would you under any circumstances make slaves of those you love?

>>4872006
>That's moving goalposts and you know it. Last time I checked genetic implied "not subject to change".

Let's say that the ability to run as fast as Usain Bolt is 'genetic'.

Let's then say that I chop Usain Bolt's legs off with a chainsaw.

Is Usain Bolt able to run as fast as before?

Do you still think 'genetic' implies 'not subject to change'?

>>4871569
Dynamics of power. Because you feel on the whipping end doesn't mean the rest of us do. There are more opportunities for the broke man to stay broke and be satisfied then back centuries ago. 3/5ths of a man couldn't afford an iPhone.

>>4871747
Social contract. You entered into it.

>>4871765
McWorld is a mindset. The United States is an empire with a home country.

>>4871817
A 'fat' 'single' 'mother'. LOL. Looks like she chose all these things. Every time, she chose to be stupid.

>>4871841
Obviously. Being born royalty, you're father simply gives you all of his inheritance -- and his throne. Nevermind the possibility of other children. Nevermind indignance.

>>4871871
>You mean like drake who was a child actor?
Yes, a newborn actor.
>Only if they are lucky to be talented in a popular sport.
'Lucky'. Not inherent talent, newborn talent. Because the state of being in a newborn is that of a man in his mid-twentites. Being AND TIME, nigger.

>Oh you mean like the kid who was at harvard and got the idea from the millionaire twins with his rich jewish-brazilian friend?

Yes, the kid who managed to get into Harvard and got the idea from from other Harvard students. Rich in resources, obviously. Nigger doesn't know how he's posting on 4chan.

>Or do you mean like dennis ritchie? Who invented c laguage and was middle class?

Because half of 1% is 50%.

>Come on you clearly have no understanding of how life works and you get a coupe of famous outliers and you don't see that they were just the lucky lottery winners.

BAAAWWWWWWWWWW

>>4871921
>I mean if it really was about talent you would have to explain why the richest musicians are actually not the most talented musicians.

'Get Rich or Die Trying'. Pretty honest.

>This is laughable. Tennis academies, boxing gyms and training facilities are full of people that train 12 hours a day and most of them won't make it to being pros, let alone the top pros that do millions.

Oh, stupid people.

>>4871953
Yeah, they must've built a real Woodhouse.

>>4872228
>And is that something base, incontrovertible?
Affection is a sentiment and it is mutable. Depending on various contingencies, it may dwindle or grow.
>And would you under any circumstances make slaves of those you love?
This is a very vague question; it depends rather heavily on what you mean. Is a slave a laborer that gets no reward by their labor? Is he someone who is bound by affection to do something they wouldn't otherwise? My parents certainly did the latter for me, but it was hardly my choice.

>>4872223
>Society can be improved by slavery if the slaves aren't included in the society.

As slaves usually aren't. Well put anon, I think we are on the same level.

>>4872006
I think you should double check.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_engineering

>>4872246
>Affection is a sentiment and it is mutable. Depending on various contingencies, it may dwindle or grow.
Indeed. And many men harbour a general affection for pretty much the entirety of the opposite sex, do they not? And many people will adopt a kind and caring demeanour in the presence of pretty much all children, will they not? Considerations are mounting, and we're not going anywhere near the application of selfishness as of yet.
>My parents certainly did the latter for me, but it was hardly my choice.
Interesting reply. Some might consider love more so a contract than anything else, largely a falsity, and if so, why might it not be extended across the entirety of a population? And where goes base slavery then? Where came love's stopping at its own front door? Again, slavery is no default, but an end.

>>4872280

Verily, thou talk'st like a stick-bundle and thy ordure is much retard'd.

>>4872280
>And many men harbour a general affection for pretty much the entirety of the opposite sex, do they not? And many people will adopt a kind and caring demeanour in the presence of pretty much all children, will they not?
These are both safe assumptions.
>Some might consider love more so a contract than anything else
If you mean that there is always economy in human relationship, and that many relationships follow certain overall regulations, you are correct.
>largely a falsity
I'm afraid that usually sparks from a series of disappointing experiences one had; it doesn't help that this particular human sentiment has been heavily romanticized.
>why might it not be extended across the entirety of a population? And where goes base slavery then? Where came love's stopping at its own front door? Again, slavery is no default, but an end.
I'm terribly sorry, but I confess that I don't quite follow. It's also not the first time you specify that "slavery is no default, but an end", even though I feel I didn't say otherwise in this thread at all.

>>4872309
And thou think'st it natural progression (and perhaps evolutionarily ordained) from thy mother's tit to slavery, but some will take their own lives with consideration before such has chance to become the case.

>>4872312
>I'm afraid that usually sparks from a series of disappointing experiences one had
Or a study of psychology.
>I'm terribly sorry, but I confess that I don't quite follow. It's also not the first time you specify that "slavery is no default, but an end", even though I feel I didn't say otherwise in this thread at all.
I'm exploring further back than your initial response to this thread. You seemed to me to make default of slavery and arbitrary consideration of its denial. It's all the same, though, and so why not make arbitrarity of it all?

>>4872320

Nay, sirrah, thy words fall as dandel-chaff upon a poppy, bearing not the fruit its rightful target yields.

>>4872320
hath?
I'm not a very fancy faggot

>>4872336
So do you object to something in particular or what?

Pain makes men do bad thing to other men.

>>4872356
It makes everything of us, in fact.

>>4872348

Your prose style, obviously.

> Some might consider love more so a contract than anything else, largely a falsity, and if so, why might it not be extended across the entirety of a population? And where goes base slavery then?

Calling this 'flowery' would be an insult to perfectly good flowers. At least they smell nice. I mean:

>Where came love's stopping at its own front door? Again, slavery is no default, but an end.

Do piss off, you know? Have a read over that post again, with only the style in mind. Ask yourself: is the kind of person this would impress worth impressing?

>>4872356
Or pleasure. Do people think reductions make witticisms or poetry? Every being is a cognitive agency, but not aware of civil criticisms, apparently.

>>4872358
Whipped. Everything is painful to you.

>>4872363
I found it simple and to the point. I'm not concerned with your faggotry, mate, though I do realise there's not the sweet sound of conventional control to my prose --maybe I like it that way.

>>4872368

You sound concerned enough. And no, you didn't 'find it simple'; you thought it rather fine. And you were wrong.

Don't concern yourself with style if you're not prepared to accept criticism.

>>4872365
Pleasure, psychologically speaking, comes in the abatement of pain.

"Most of all he liked grilled mutton kidneys which gave to his palate a fine tang of faintly scented urine" -- James Joyce detailing a greater conquering of morality in gustatory taste. Toilet humour in gustatory taste, basically. Feelings are but recognition, not inherent.

>>4872373
I was thinking you might be taking issue with what I was saying on top of how I was saying it. I'm really not concerned with your faggotry mate, lol. Not on here anyway.

>>4872375
mortality, duh

>>4872380
And feelings besides pain, that is, which I suppose are necessarily forced upon us.

>>4872368
>I'm not concerned
>>4872379
>I'm really not concerned

Next up: I am SO TOTALLY NOT FUCKING CONCERNED, OK!?

>>4872386
I am SO TOTALLY NOT FUCKING CONCERNED, OK!?

There I said it for you. Do you feel more in control of me, and thusly the world, now? :D

>>4872389
>thusly

There's no hope. Never mind.

>>4872381
We are a very queer creature.

We still do.

The wage has replaced the whip. You don't mind millions of Chinese children working for your sports shoes.

So ask your fucking self, you moronic cuntface shitbag. You benefit from slavery more than any slave-owner from 1750.

>>4872395
Haha, thanks for trying I guess

>>4872375
Yes, one speaking, but if its defined in the lessening of something else, then what comes through is defined as its own thing. Even if we were to speak to two things within a larger auspices, that one concept can be defined as the higher or lower intensity of some trait doesn't say that to be gamma is to red.

As for 'inherent feelings' -- they are, if its an inherent trait of the hardware. Any OS has feeling included in it. It's the its the factory-made understanding of it that's wrong.

>>4872398
the chinese would suffer more if they didn't have the manufacturing jobs they have today

poor argument

>>4872401
The only guaranteed inherent trait, however, is in the avoidance of pain. All else is programmed in afterwards. It can very justifiably be considered the prime mover of human being.

>>4872404

And? They'd suffer less if they were paid more fairly and if corporations were paid more fairly (less) too.

Your counter isn't worthy.

>Work is slavery
>I wish I could just sit on my ass all day and browse /lit/ and jerk off and live
>I wish I was born into a wealthy family so I wouldn't need to do anything else

the thread

you people are fucking laughable.

>>4872398

Vietnamese.

Though the company manofacturing them, ensures no child labor, 2x times the average wage of the country, and ethical work shifts.

Maybe that's why they cost a fuck ton of money.

>>4872411
>do thing that ends up helping someone in need
>get called immoral for not doing it as hard as possible to one's own detriment

strong logic

>>4872398
like the other anon said, if they didn't make the shoes they'd be homeless/starving.

besides, what's wrong with some chinkchongs working to make a living, if they're smart they'll start their own business and break away from the "slavery" as you put it.

>>4872414

Some people's work IS slavery.

>be 8
>work 16 hours a day
>no days off
>salary so small it barely counts
>no holidays
>no insurance
>nothing

Slaves lived better lives, actually. They were fed better, had shelter, plenty of sex, plenty of music.

Today's workers in third world countries have it worse than your average Uncle Tom from 1820.

It's a fact but only people who read history books will know as much.

>>4872410
>The only guaranteed inherent trait, however, is in the avoidance of pain.

Obviously there is a lack of pain pleasure, but one might not call it an avoidance. On a physical level, that our brain might wire itself to avoid pain, doesn't mean the chemistry 'feels' that. It knows that as a matter of protocol. That we happen to use 'pain' and 'pleasure' in psychological terms (Scientific -- except for challengers) is only to our use according to aggregation.

>All else is programmed in afterwards.
Which obviously means nothing in an aggregate -- the only account for The Human Being, not A Human Being.

>It can very justifiably be considered the prime mover of human being.
Justifiably sounds awfully soft for 'most just'.

>>4872424

>some peoples work is slavery

not on /lit/ that's for god damn sure. wouldn't kill you pathetic losers to work a day in your life

>>4872426
>On a physical level, that our brain might wire itself to avoid pain, doesn't mean the chemistry 'feels' that.
Sure. Still. We're getting away from the topic of discussion. The "why" of this thread is best answered with "pain".

It's really pretty simple, all governments in the world should get together and force corporations to pay high wages so living standards can increase. Rich people will have less and everyone else will have more. Who cares if this hurts the rich peoples feelings or anything? And if all governments in the world agreed to do this then there couldn't be any kind of "capital drain." If there were a "capital strike"(lol yeah right) then the government could use fiat money to fund productive industries. Anyone who disagrees is a bad person and as such their opinion should not be taken into account.

Very simple, this should be done and there's no good reason for it not happening at all. Of course the logistics make it very difficult for many reasons.

>>4872433
The rest can be extrapolated from that, and it wont lend to false considerations such as are very common when it comes to human psychology.

>>4872433
To what order our minds construct anything if neural constituents 'avoid pain'? The constituents are what constitute the transition from pain to pleasure. Might as well just prescribe chaos as the prime mover of human behavior, then.

>>4872424
>Slaves lived better lives, actually. They were fed better, had shelter, plenty of sex, plenty of music.
whaaaaaaaaat

and have all of you people really been to china and have seen these 8 year olds work from 08h-24h?
bullshit

>>4872429
The amount of effort I put into my novel in just one day is more work than the average Joe sixpack will work in his life. Get real. Most people with jobs are doing mundane tasks that dull their brains. The only work is the staving off of boredom. Those 250 words I wrote in the last week? THAT'S work.

>>4872442
They are considered workers, not slaves.

>>4872418
>>4872422

There's obviously an axiomatic disagreement between you two and the other guy. You are each pointing to the same facts to establish your case.

A) The Chinese worker faces much privation without the earnings from the labour, therefore the labour is a good.

B) The Chinese worker only accepts the labour because of a dearth of alternatives, therefore the labour is not a good.

See? The dearth of alternatives = the privation. So you all should stop talking about facts and start talking about the principles underlying your attitudes to the facts.

>>4872441
Interesting. Pain is still the prime mover, though.

>>4872456
Pain is what's secondary to Chaos, here. Human exceptionalism doesn't account for the cosmic. We expect to find 'universal truths', or even truths of this given universe, when we haven't gotten past our Earthly pain. I want to know how Mars feels, today.

>>4872429

I work more than full time and don't consider myself a slave.

You and I are both on /lit/, don't insult us. I'll shit over NEETS as much as you would, but we're still part of /lit/.

>>4872462
We're an extraordinarily unchaotic being, though, don't you think? You want to know how Mars feels today because of your own Earthly pain.

>>4872429
Work is death.

>>4872470
Right. When I bleed, I don't weep because I'm in pain, but because millions of red blood cells are in existential agony. Just like a real patriot.

It depends on how you see chaos. One could say that we're a product of chaos given to exceptionalism. Or, instead of saying there is a lack of chaos in us, we can simply say we're characteristically ordered. Pain/Pleasure.

>>4872444

If you genuinely believe this I feel sorry for you. Your "work" will amount to nothing.

>>4872429
Been there, done that. Waste of time and my life. Feel free doing it, Anon.

>>4872479
Neither will work of millions of people out there. Your point?

>>4872477
Maybe you're insisting upon "pleasure" in a bid to beat down an encroaching moral imperative. Those poor blood cells, anon, how could you be so uncaring!

>>4872487
Hey, you're the psychologist. I don't play on the pleasure principle.

I am given to gestures at times, in name of some wildfire. Perhaps I do weep.

>>4872492
So we'll say pain then :D

>>4872498
If you feel the need to aggregate the rumors.

>>4872479
If writing a scathing criticism of capitalism and the vapidity the consumer culture engenders in people, which will no doubt affect US legislation (perhaps, even, they will restructure the government altogether), is nothing, then I'd like to know what is something.

>>4872510
Moral imperatives, mate.

>>4872512
But it was already shown before you, black and white.

>>4872517
I don't follow. Pleasure makes chaos, pain order.

>>4872522
Well, this is college-ruled paper. Good enough for you? Available as a product of capitalism.

>>4872523
No mean feat -- but no.

>>4872535
Don't worry, though, anon; the alcoholism is slowly taking me.

>>4872535
Well, here's wide-ruled. More room for postmodern gossip.

Or, you can go with a blank page. But creative communities tend to scorn that sort of thing. Depends on how you name it.

>>4872541
And here I am, wanting to have more. Made beer battered catfish a few days ago.

>>4872547
Tempting, anon. Tempting.

>>4872548
I'm sure the catfish was willing.

>>4872442

Look, fuckhead: the average slave worked less than the average free man back then. The slave had a free sex life: he could fuck every bitch around. Babies meant more slaves, so sex was encouraged, not refrained. Slaves were considered to be soulless animals, so they weren't restricted by religion.

Sex, music, etc. They had it all and worked less than everyone else.

Truth bothers you?

I got more.

A lot of people got so mad at this freedom that they started movements to evangelise the slaves and make them lead moral lives. A lot of people who wanted to "free" them actually wanted to end their lives of free sex with countless partners, awesome music, and diminutive hours.

Wait, Hollywood lied to you? SHIT, MAN!

>>4872444
>The amount of effort I put into my novel in just one day is more work than the average Joe sixpack will work in his life.

You're a shame to us all.

Your "work" is masturbation that helps nobody achieve anything. Joe Sixpack is useful. You're not and never will be.

>>4871545


because it is, duh.

>>4872585
>The slave had a free sex life

I'm pretty sure I've read elsewhere that this is false - that on the contrary, slaves were forced to breed with whatever other slaves were considered by their masters likely to produce the best offspring.

>Truth bothers you?

Well, (not that guy) I'd be interested in seeing some support. Not that you don't have a very honest face or anything.

>>4872610

Are you ready to read?

>>4871545

because industrialization had not occurred and people were still valued as human instead of being reduced to a series of numbers on a spreadsheet. Slavery died with Rome because Rome was in many ways becoming pseduo-industrialized, and as a result the growing number of slaves were treated worse and worse by a shrinking number of masters. Hence it ended because people weren't going to put up with it anymore.

>>4872618

So you're not ready to type, then. Fair enough.

>>4872635

Wait, you asked me for source, right?

>>4872635


not that guy but here http://radishmag.wordpress.com/2013/01/25/slavery-reconsidered/ (and also here http://thosewhocansee.blogspot.fr/2012/06/conundrum-of-afro-governance.html )

>>4872640

I asked you for 'support'. Ideally, this would take the form of some kind of brief elaboration on your claims, citation of at least two relevant authorities and so forth. A picture of a book cover is pretty weak sauce, don't you think? Clearly, there's something you're at least mildly interested in persuading people to believe. How much effort you put into it is of course up to you.

>>4872711
>Okay, try the second idea: slavery was bad regardless of what it was actually like, because slavery contradicts Liberty, Equality, and other, miscellaneous abstractions (Human Dignity springs to mind), which are to be considered good regardless of how much misery they have created over the centuries. In that case, congratulations: you, like the abolitionists, have got religion. Kindly keep your Church far away from the State.

Despite the laudable reliance on primary sources, the blog is written by a crazy person, as the above paragraph should make clear. Most of it, from what I can see, is properly aimed at a very strong argument that the manner in which slavery was brought to an end in the US was irresponsible and poorly thought out. No arguments here. But it doesn't make much of a case for slavery qua slavery.

The second blog seems to have some white supremacist bent - all jolly good fun, I'm sure, but none of it seems relevant to a defence or justification of slavery beyond the usual short-sighted recitation of statistics which, properly considered, are more a condemnation of things other than slavery than a point in slavery's favour.

>>4871545

Same reason why we always come back to the 'might makes right' formula which is ever alive and in action. It's heavily related to social hierarchy which seems to be innate in humans.

>>4872799
Shut up you stupid cunt

>>4872762


i dont see how thats clear at all, it is most certainly true that slavish adherence to contingent categorical imperatives (ideologies that hold some aformetioned contingent concept as the ultimate object) causes suffering when said frameworks go outside their 'operating envelope' (especially if they are outside the envelope of being whatsoever from the very start).

i realise its very easy to default to the image we are inculcated to that those who discuss such things openly are inferior, base, and unhinged beings (incidentally; http://radishmag.wordpress.com/2014/02/02/crazy-talk/)), and that i also agree it is perfectly natural to distrust or discount (and vice versa) a beings sayings, or colour our interpretations thereof, based on the characteristics of those beings, beyond the material itself, but i implore you to reconsider this particular heuristic here.

>>4872808
lol :D

>>4872809
Haven't seen you in a while.

>>4872828


im usually lurking and shitposting now and then. i sometimes think about inflicting myself on some other forum, but having to sign up for things is a hassle and the people are lame, so im here forever.

>>4872861
I was thinking you might have been that earlier dude in disguise. Hoping, perhaps.

>>4872873


if you mean itt, then probably not.

>>4872902
Recommend me some reading, mate.

>>4872809

No, you misunderstand how I conclude that the person is crazy. When he (I know without checking that it is a he) says:

>Liberty, Equality, and other, miscellaneous abstractions (Human Dignity springs to mind), which are to be considered good regardless of how much misery they have created over the centuries. In that case, congratulations: you, like the abolitionists, have got religion.

...he is making a value claim about abstract concepts. Which is perfectly fine, but not something that can properly persuade those who already accept them. Dimly aware of this, he feebly invokes 'separation of Church and State' as though this will definitely be the ticket. Leaving aside the fact that 'Liberty, Equality and other, miscellaneous abstractions' are directly referenced in the very Constitution of said State, this, frankly, is not how the mind of a sane person works. He would not accept that, given acceptance of recognition of 'Liberty' as 'religious', stalwart conviction of Liberty's non-existence must likewise be considered 'religious' and must likewise be disregarded when considering... well, when considering whatever exactly the author imagines himself to be discussing at that point (it's not the United States, certainly).

>>4872916


i recently read some anime fanfiction that was decent, that what you have in mind? :^)

>>4872946
I recently read this:

The woods are lovely
Dark and deep
But I have promises to keep
And miles to go before I sleep
And miles to go before I sleep

Something along the lines of that? :D

>>4872927


its a common rhetorical tactic to equivocate topical concepts and then re-refer them to a device the target audience believes in to run counter to what they ostensibly think follows, ideological jiu-jitsu.

>>4872958
I've never really considered getting a tattoo before, but I like the thought of that on my inner arm.

>>4872969
>its a common rhetorical tactic

So are ad hominem and the strawman.

People saw god as "natural" as well

Slavery is normal

>>4872958


faulkner sounds up your alley, perhaps The Road by mccarthy, if you havent already, or growth of the soil, by hamsun.

>>4871747
>Rousseau was right everything was fine before people started building fences around their 'property'

top lel m8. People always had to work hard to earn a living, even before Adam Smith spouted his Wealth of Nations

>>4872977


indeed, and thank you for illustrating the point, neither those are examples of definite 'crazy' either.

>>4872031
>be free
>decide not to work
>no food
>you die

whats your point?

>>4872998
Thanks, mate.

>>4873006

Well you're acting as though hyperbole isn't also a common rhetorical device.

>>4871566
A man, snaps in half, just like you, snap a pencil.

>>4872989
>People saw god as "natural" as well
Terrible, try again.

>>4871670
>Name a culture that has never used slaves.
Cultures aren't historically active, its just ideology. Its the economy stupid.

Post Accord Australia hasn't used slaves, for example.

>>4873016
It's hardly a decision between work or not to work, if the latter got deadly consequences.

Slaves are free to decide whatever they want too but due the consequences, staying a slave is the only viable decision, just as working is the only viable decision in a capitalist hellhole.

>>4873005

Just because that happened in the past, it doesn't mean we can't change it.

>>4873035
Guess you don't understand what the word natural means, but gods were not seen as artificial.

>>4872587

>useful

The amount of jobs that are being lost yearly to technology greatly suggests that most average people don't do anything that meaningful.

>>4873062
Free market will fix it.

>>4873062
meaningful doesn't mean being a special snowflake you can't replace

>>4873048
What if we could? Nobody would need to work, that seems like a thrilling exciting way of life!

Do you ever go outside?

>>4873044
What's your point? In both situations the end result is death or impoverishment.
The only difference is the perceived lack of free will. In a capitalist 'hellhole' if you work hard you will bear the fruits of your labour and will actually enjoy what you're doing because your decisions made you end up working where you are. Sure this doesn't count if you were raised in rural China. But the point stands

>>4873053

Neither were they generally seen as 'natural' in cultures which distinguished between 'natural' and 'supernatural'.

>>4873079
My point is that there is hardly any difference, between a slave, especially in the ancient times compared to full capitalist countries without a sufficient welfare system.

The enjoying your work and eventually getting promoted point applies to slaves aswell. It's not like all of them were manual workers.

>>4873080
In essential understanding, supernatural is just MORE natural. It is a woman's nature to serve because her supernatural spirit is one that serves: when she does not, it is unnatural. Supernatural is pure natural.

>>4873125

'Super' in this sense means 'above/beyond', rather than 'to the utmost'.

>>4873102
There similarities are indeed striking but the biggest difference is free will. Sure, with some form of mental gymastics one could argue there is no free will at all. But being bound by slavery due to an enforcement of the will of the slaver that is stronger than your own is something else than signing up at a factory out of free will so you can get some money to eat.

I don't think "wage slavery" is anything but a concept that falsely empowers those who use it as an excuse for why they work in a shit job. Obviously, SOMEBODY has to fill the shit jobs. But that doesn't mean any individual in particular has to. Any individual person (not the whole of a population, mind you) can overcome that state somehow if they focus on a goal and make it their priority to achieve any means necessary to reach it.

>>4874049

Plenty of people know the means to their goal, they are just unwilling to fulfill them. That being said, the means are often overwhelmingly difficult.

>>4874049
>wage slavery equals shit job
it doesn't though, it's a concept that encompasses a variety of things. wage slaves keep their jobs because they get a 30+ years mortgage and they don't want to deal with the consequences of not being able to pay it, just to make an example.
Also "wage slave" is nine times out of ten a pejorative term used by those who don't feel they are wage slaves.

>>4874049
>"shit jobs" simply materialize from the aether and naturally occurring lesser human beings, also self-created, are simply drawn to these "shit jobs"

>>4874049
>>4874056
What part of "wage slave or starve" don't you understand?

Also
>Believing the "american dream" that hard work and perseverance can accomplish anything.

Tell that to Nikola Tesla, a martyr against the evils of capitalism--crucified by the society he helped bring into a new era, meanwhile Edison, a man who electrocuted puppies, kittens, goats, and elephants to "demonize a/c current" is heralded as a national hero.

Muricans are so god damn dumb and naive--and painfully confident in their ignorance.

>>4871893
This sort of smugness is pretty fucking rich coming from you

>>4871761

nah bro. it used to be LITERALLY legal. underground slavery isn't shit in comparison to state-sanctioned

>>4874069

I'm not saying the system is flawless. Americans are forced to work long hours for little pay and little benefits. But as it stands now, that is how the system operates and the only way to excel at it is to play its game. The game isn't fair, so you don't have to play fair. If you think the system should be reformed (which I think it should), then gain power and fight for change. We've seen that voting doesn't work.

>>4874088
dear god shut up.

>>4874069
>americans
It's such a worldwide spread thing now, you wish it was just america.
People get fed up with this shit that they can do what they want and they actually buy into it even when they're 40 and working a dead end job.

>>4874093

Well, why do you think I'm wrong?

>>4873156
No, the utmost. The "essence". That is what essentialism is. A woman's "essence" is her "nature"; when she behaves contrary to her supernatural essence, she behaves unnaturally.

>>4871545
why are women's asses the greatest thing in the universe

>>4874314
Because they're comfortable ^_^

>>4874314
It's toilet humour in asses.

>>4874325
Like bringing a cushion along for those hard benches, is it?

>>4874314
They're meat buttocks it's socially acceptable to stick your dick in.

>>4874241
>No, the utmost.

No, above/beyond. There is no sense of the word 'supernatural' that implies 'ultimately natural'. This is a simple and indeed trivial point.

All degrees are useless.

They serve to homogenize education and forces employers to pick from "qualified" (this just means they were broken in by the education system) employees rather than actually seeking out the most capable person for the job.

If two people have the same bullshit degree, how can you tell which one is actually more qualified? You can't... which is exactly the way the system is intended to work. Normalized garbage for the entire population so that the truly intelligent individuals have little to no chance of standing out and moving up in the world. That way the financial elite at the top of the pyramid scheme have little to no competition and an abundance of labor resources.

the elite don't want competition. They want more slaves. competent slaves.

>>4876398
wrong thread?

>>4871770
Nobody who is not literally mentally challenged would have any trouble feeding themselves doing nothing but shitty manual labor odd-jobs. A lot of economic hardship is self-inflicted (living in ridiculously high cost areas where you cannot afford the rent instead of moving to where living is cheap and work is available, HAVING KIDS AND STARTING A FUCKING FAMILY WHEN YOU'RE WORKING AT A MCDONALDS AND THEN BITCHING ABOUT YOU'RE NOT BEING PAID ENOUGH TO SUPPORT YOURSELF AND YOUR FIVE NIGLETS, etc.).

>>4876470
>ABOUT how YOU'RE