/lit/ - Literature

So your parents wishes for you to not be a faggot are great literature?

I like the sentiment, but even the best fantasy isn't good enough for this to be true.

>>4850737
This statement has the potential to be true.

But I've never come across a fantasy series that could be considered high literature. Somehow they always fall one step short for me. Anybody else share this sentiment?

>>4850762
Yes
>>4850754

>>4850762
Yes, and I have a recommendation for you born of that experience: stop reading fantasy series. The best fantasy inevitably takes the form of self-contained works. (I would argue that this is true of all genres.)

>>4850737
said noone ever.

>>4850773
Like what? Fantasy seems like a genre that can really benefit from being a series.

>>4850773
>stop reading fantasy series
Mostly true, only problem is that so few fantasy works ever stop at one book. Lord of the Rings is self-contained in a sense, but obviously it's not the only work in the universe.

The problem with fantasy is the amount of work that usually goes into world building, many authors dedicate to a single universe for most of their careers.

>>4850776
all the earliest forms of fiction were fantasy
epic of gilgamesh
illiad
odyssey
beowulf
the holy bible

>>4850762
Book of the New Sun

also this >>4850807

>>4850807
>the holy bible
Then fightan words son.

OP here, despite my image being from The Black Company (which I don't think anybody considers high literature despite it's entertaining characters) this is what I was talking about. Tolkien being another shining example, despite all it's flaws.

And A Song of Ice and Fire. Bite me, you slut.

Fantasy is the result of pure imagination with only as much limitation by reality as the author wishes.

>>4850781
I would be hard pressed to think of anything that I believe benefited from being a series of novels.

I think that fantasy is at its best when it is being genuinely fantastic, inventing out of whole cloth to serve the needs of the narrative and its themes rather than falling back into the tropes we see repeated in work after work with minor embellishment.

Looking at some fantasy I've enjoyed recently, I've found standalone works like Little, Big, The Worm Ouroborous, The City of Dreaming Books, The Castle of Crossed Destinies, The Once and Future King, and The Bloody Chamber to deliver far more in terms of creativity, intellectual content and literary style than any long-running series I have encountered. (Book of the New Sun is alright, but I still prefer Wolfe's standalone work.)

The only case in which I think being a series does not detract from a work is if the individual entries are themselves standalone episodes. (I have been taking a look back at some products of the spiritualist movement recently and the likes of Carnacki the Ghost-Finder, while hardly likely to be mentioned in the same breath as Joyce or Tolstoy, have at least the saving grace of providing more genuine entertainment with each short story than I was able to extract from eight books of The Wheel of Time before I abandoned it as a bad job.)

>>4850817
Trouble is, the author is often so fucking obsessed with the freedom of props and costumes that they spend insufficient time on the script, which wouldn't be bad except it means the props and costumes have to be much more than cool or neat

Cheap literature inspires fantasy, it is not fantasy itself.

>>4850995
I think this is something Tokien did perfectly in The Hobbit and Lord of the Rings. But every other Middle Earth work was just world building at the expense of any sort of story.

But The Hobbit and LotR did a great job of immersing you in the world and making you learn about it in a natural feeling way.

ASoIaF also does this well AT TIMES, when discussing the more ancient history it can get very preachy. But all the recent history and stories of events that took place mere years before the books begin (the Mad King) are portrayed very naturally. Imho. The fact that you never really can be sure how much of what you've been told is true also, I think, lends to it feeling less like some omniscient narrator is telling you the histories of the universe.

>>4850995

>>4851024
Yes.

>>4851023
I think a lot of people who don't know very much about it are too eager to criticize tolkien

>>4851043
The way Lord of the Rings is written is on a level of detail and genius far different than that of any other fantasy novel.

People often fail to understand what makes LotR so unique.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lXAvF9p8nmM

>>4851023
LotR had story, characters, and a world that probably had more effort into it than any other fantasy writer has poured into a world.

I haven't read ASolaF...I tried, but not really my thing.

>>4851055
>LotR had story, characters, and a world

ya don't say

>>4850737
Yes, fantasy has the potential to far exceed "realistic" works

But the fantasy that fills that potential doesn't exist yet. It would require a shitload of genius from its creator.

>>4851063
You're talking about Hollywood.

>>4851054
any bored faggot can worldbuild. middle-earth is so great because there's a purpose to everything in it.

>>4851065
basically the format of any video game

>>4851065
exactly

>>4851055
>I haven't read ASolaF...I tried, but not really my thing.
It's not a hard read, but it's a unique one. I can't blame some people for not getting into it. The HBO show is more accessible but of course not as good as the books.

I think immersing yourself in the world, analyzing seemingly unrelated events, connecting dots, and questioning truth is what makes ASoIaF so enjoyable to me. That and the absolute terror I feel any time a character I like is in trouble.

Something too should be said for GRRM's ability to write female and homosexual characters. The series is commonly criticized for having strong amounts of gratuitous sex, and it does, but it has a great cast of female characters that are both weak, strong, and anywhere in between. They're written with a depth seldom seen in fantasy, where women are usually just sexy rogues or whatever. And (though the show botches this) the few homosexual characters are written very subtly. Never is a character outright declared to be gay, but their actions and thoughts hint at it. Which is realistic for the period, as that sort of behavior is extremely shunned in at least some parts of the world. I just like mentioning this because despite the very detailed description of sex, ASoIaF handles sexual preference and gender in a very uncommonly mature way.

>>4850737
I think you need to cite examples.

>>4851110
Twilight.

>>4850832
>I still prefer Wolfe's standalone work
What would you recommend? I should really get in on this Wolfe action at some point.

>>4851116
Case... closed.

I'd consider some of Lord Dunsany's works to be high literature.

I agree with OP, The Shadow Rising is an great example of this.

>>4851117
It's not his best, but An Evil Guest might make a good starting point. Wolfe's work demands more than a single reading by design, and it's one of his shorter novels.

>>4851065
I fucking can't stand world building. I focus more on the characters and shit. It's just so much work when I could be focusing on what's actually important that I normally don't bother except for what's required.

>>4851099
My biggest complaint with ASoIaF is not that the sex is gratuitous, but that much of the world-building is. I get the distinct impression, bolstered by Martin's comments on his own writing process, that he just puts down every bit of detail he can think of, regardless of whether it is relevant at the time. The whole series strikes me as a jumble leading to no definite purpose, and I think it's only hope to be really good would be if a judicious editor were to excise half of it once the whole thing is finished.

>>4852043
What I hate is when I pick up a fantasy novel and receive the distinct impression that it's author thought they were writing a Dungeons and Dragons manual.

>>4852053
>My biggest complaint with ASoIaF is not that the sex is gratuitous, but that much of the world-building is. I get the distinct impression, bolstered by Martin's comments on his own writing process, that he just puts down every bit of detail he can think of, regardless of whether it is relevant at the time. The whole series strikes me as a jumble leading to no definite purpose, and I think it's only hope to be really good would be if a judicious editor were to excise half of it once the whole thing is finished.
It probably doesn't bother me because the world really sucks me in, I love Westeros and Essos. It's cultures and histories. The story is schlock, it's going in a billion directions with no clear purpose (if you've not read it all, you have no idea how much shit is going on at once) but I can't help but get really interested. It's not well written fantasy, so I'd never try to convince somebody who doesn't like it to read it anyways. Not with the size of those books.

>>4852043
>I focus more on the characters and shit
The Black Company, if you haven't already read it (I'm sure you have) then The Black Company. Very little world building, but enough to paint a decent picture. The focus is the characters and it does that. if nothing else, really well.

>>4850737
Philosophy is the best of what literature can be. Good fantasy is second.

>>4851099
Pretty good summation of what I liked about the series.

ASOIAF might not be the highest form of literature but it is excellent at developing interesting, believable characters. Probably worth a read if you ever plan on writing female characters well.

>>4852505
I'm not sure what makes a book literary, but I feel as invested in these book as any piece of 'high literature' I've read. The events just usually aren't elevated by the prose (though they can be when the writer really tries)

>>4850832
> I think that fantasy is at its best when it is being genuinely fantastic.

Read Imajica... Clive Barker has a ridiculous imagination.

itt: trash genre fiction

>>4851099
>female characters that are both weak, strong, and anywhere in between. They're written with a depth
just because he has a range of female characters doesn't mean they're well nuanced. arya and daenerys have decent character arcs but others are single note:
catelyn: muh daughters
sansa: much weakling
brienne: muh honor
cersei: bitchy bitch

>>4852519
I can't speak for everything that defines 'high literature' as well, high literature. But I think what keeps ASoIaF from being considered 'high literature' is it's lack of a clear story. It's a billion plot points running beside each other, constantly intertwining but often still very unrelated to each other. There is no clear end goal for the series, the outcome as to where all these stories will end up is unknown.

Which is actually why I like the series. Nobody has a clear outcome of where they will be in life. ASoIaF is a character driven piece, every character has personal goals and the story progresses through those goals conflicting and cooperating with the goals of other characters.

You don't know the outcome, so you are constantly thinking on your feet. In Lord of the Rings the goal was clear, drop the ring in Mount Doom. You knew this is what was going to happen. The existence of a clear, direct antagonist for all the heroes also meant you knew how any characters might die. By orcs.

In ASoIaF [Storm of Swords spoilers here, yes that one] even if you knew a character was going to die, the method can but surprising. Robb was fighting a war with the Westerlands, if he was going to be killed you'd think it'd be in battle or executed as a traitor. But no, because of a stupid mistake he made earlier he was betrayed and murdered by own of his own bannermen. This lack of a clear goal, and a clear enemy (White Walkers are pretty clear, or would be if they ever did anything) is what keeps the story exiting.

>>4852532
>he still thinks his books about failing marriages and Russian Aristocrats aren't a genre
>he still thinks "contemporary literature" has any value

>>4852545
>sansa: much weakling
>cersei: bitchy bitch
Have you read the entire series so far? Because you should know these statements aren't true if you have.

>>4852532
I used to think like you, but then I discovered that some authors find particular genres easier to write and thus their best writing comes out of it. Only the uninformed think genre fiction as a whole is trash.

>>4852547
Infinite Jest
>>4852545
Sansa's actually a great character, her chapters always have a strong, distinct voice.

>>4852554
He cited Arya and Daenarys as the better arcs

that should tell you everything

>>4852566
I bet he doesn't even know about Lady Stoneheart based on
>catelyn: muh daughters

Probably a showfag, since Sansa's character got sort of butchered (even if she is well played) by the fact that you can't hear Sansa's thoughts in the show. She's always acting weak, even when she finally learns not to be weak. So from the outside it doesn't look like much happened.

>>4852566
Arya has a great arc, but plebs want to see her character as
>epic badass like in muh hungry games
when she's somewhere between a shellshocked child solider and a psychopath. Now she's in a cult and shit and I don't know what she's gonna do.

>>4852550
>implying i was talking about "contemporary literature"
>judging literature by the plot of a book

>>4852555
only the uninformed think genre fiction as a whole is "the best of what literature can be"

>>4852692
Only the uniformed think there exists a set of axioms that determine the quality of literature.

>>4852720
well then OP must be one of the uninformed

>>4852783
FUCK YOU

>>4850813
>Book of the New Sun
>fantasy

people keep saying this and it's still completely false

Everything is a trope. Even subversion of a trope is a trope. There are no original ideas anymore. Just unique arragements of tired tropes. Kind of like how there are only 4 bases in dna that arranged differently give you an "original" human being. same as in fantasy literature

>>4854625
Why is it false? Because you think it's totally sci-fi rather than fantasy? No one cares.

>>4854936
Sounds kind of like ym's vagina, if you know what I mean. Seriously, I feel like there's just nothing left for me to do in there.

fantasy is the most puerile form of escapism there is; the antithesis of good, quality literature. every piece of 'fantasy' was written by a sad little neckbeard who lacked the capacity to live in the real world

science fiction is a little more respectable, but still in the same category

there's a reason i couldn't get into harry potter when i was younger. it was because i was a born patrician, who knew not to waste time with infantile nerdlord trash. this is why i read the superior lemony snicket novels, and became the beautiful bossgod i am today. say no to fantasy

>>4855601
You should at least clean your lit prof's cum off your moustachio before posting on /lit/, you plebgoise piece of shit.

>>4855601
>patrician
>types in all lowercase

>>4855608
let me guess, you also play WoW and other stupid computer games, and GoT is your favorite show

disgusting. my pleb detector just broke

>>4855623
>>4855601
hurr only pretentious literary fiction is good

fuck off

/lit/ is to books what /mu/ is to music.
Pay these hipsters no mind.

There is absolutely nothing that "literary fiction" can do that "genre fiction" can't also do

>>4856419
Who is the Thomas Pynchon of fantasy?

>>4856419
That's unfair, people here have on great steem Dosto and Tolsti, noones on mu discusses classical music

I want to read a fantasy novel that grapples with complex themes and isn't simply plot driven. Something that has something to say, that just uses fantasy to convey it.

>>4851918
I just finished The Fires of Heaven.
When did this happen?
Or is this a spoiler?

>>4857538
The Sword of Truth series attempted that

>>4857538
ASOIAF is exactly that

>>4856426
Mervyn Peake

>>4857538
>Something that has something to say
It's time you stop reading fiction.

>>4857596
initially, yes

>>4850832
I dislike fantasy, but quality literature that is fantasy is my dream. I didn't like Little, Big at all, but I still think I'll go through your list and read at least some of the stuff youv'e mentioned. The Ouroboros thing sounds like fun, clearly tolkienesque but written in 1922, hmm, hmmmm.

>>4857653
>Brienne's absurdist ramblings in AFFC
>Septon Meribalds spiel about the psychological toll of war
>Euron grappling with his inner, effeminate nature
>The slow and horrible realization of who and what Reek is
>Samwell Tarly awkwardly flirting with the Wildling
>Daenarys walking through the grasslands and- well shit
The later books had less plot tweests, but they were just as good with character, and far more consistent with prose.I named plenty of great moments while still using the 'meh' POVs.

>>4857538
Pratchett for the most part has something to say but for the most it is simplistic.

>>4850754
Most of Shakespeare's plays are fantasy.

Ghosts, witches, prophecies, magic, kings, etc.

>>4857737

A agree a lot of his books aren't attempting to tackle complex issues and are simplistic, but I would also say that some of his books do manage to successfully tackle more profound issues. I'd say Small Gods and Night Watch are very good examples of fantasy with something to say. They're certainly light reading though.

ITT plebs who haven't read Mark Lawerence

fantasy is my favorite genre but sifting through all the turds that are promoted by publishers as "masterpieces, bestsellers, visionary works" is a challenge

>>4857538
Sounds like The Second Apocalypse might be for you. They're concerned with philosophy, theology, the nature of human belief, DEEP SHIT, MAN! The author beats you over the head with it at times, but there's more subtle stuff going on too. And his world building has an actual purpose that ties in with the themes.