/lit/ - Literature

>>4806964
He's a self described feminists
so no.

>>4807061
There is nothing feminist about Martin's fiction. Even when he seems to empower women, he ultimately just objectifies them in a different way.

>>4806964
no he's a bad writer

>>4806964
sure. and even if I didn't enjoy his books I'd still support them. Anything that angers this board, representative as it is of the worst excesses of modern literary culture, has my support. The amount of hate driven OC is borderline hilarious.

The Wheel of Time is way more feminist then Martin's work.

The whole series is pretty much about how Women are superior to all those wool-brained lummoxes that they call men.

-tugs braid-

>>4807067
You see, he's a Sasha Grey and Belle Knox kind of feminist

>>4807135
I bet you think feminism is the stuff the bitch about on /v/

>>4807147
I bet you're actually butt hurt by that anons post

>>4807135
Robert Jordan just did a good job in explaining something we already knew was true.

>>4807146
>Sasha Grey and Belle Knox kind of feminist
a hypocrite who picks up a trendy label that satisfies liberal guilt without modifying their behavior?

>>4806964

Sometimes I wonder if he isn't some sort of HBO fabrication, conceived as another character of the series, deployed in real life, to sell also the books, and give advanced heads up to hardcore fans. Since a similar pattern has been done already with castle, it would be a plausible argumentative tactic, as an proposal for innovation.

Moreover, maybe he is just a symbol for the dramatis personnae of the screenwriting team.

Depends what you mean by 'writer'.

The only works of his that I've ever read were the first three books of A Song of Ice and Fire, so my judgement of him is based only on those novels.

If you're using the term in the strict sense to refer to skill with imagery, syntax etc, then I would classify him as inconsistent in quality; he can range from often quite good (although /lit/ either wont or can't see this), to occasionally flat out weird (you could count those examples on one hand, but still).

I often find his style a little frustratingly unsubstantial, like I want to get more stimulation out of his writing, or I want to be challenged by it. There are also moments when his sentences sound awkward.

Other times he really excels at rendering literal, unadorned imagery and environments. I feel like I can feel and smell everything going on around me. The guy has a knack for creating extremely vivid scenes.

His simple and direct style also suits the bleak and hopeless angle of his story.

If you're using the term 'writer' in the broader sense of an author or creator of a story, then he's definitely something. His prose isn't what you read his books for, I'll say that much. But the thematic approach, emotional hold, story, characters, and inventiveness of those first three novels were great. His ideas a striking enough on their own not to be blunted by less than amazing writing.

His short stories are better than his novels. But he is fairly reliably entertaining. He won't be remembered as a luminary of literature but that's not what his work is about.

He is competent/10. I think he bit off more than he could chew with game of thrones though, you can tell that after book 3 he loses his way and the plot gets out of control with too many characters and irrelevant side details.

>>4807201
>as an proposal for innovation
as an attempt of innovation, aimed to succeed in an over saturated market.

>>4806964
I'd say he's competent enough to keep it going. I'm sure some would argue otherwise, but I think it's safe to say in this case. With other sort of 'one hit wonders' that just tapped into a market, like say Stephenie Meyer, she showed her success was purely a fluke. However people that enjoy fantasy seem to enjoy George R Martin. I'd say I'd put him along with J. K. Rowling. She went onto write another successful book, though very much failed with her attempt at 'dramatic' writing. He knows his audience, and knows what they want, but doesn't quite pander. If that makes any sense. I'd look forward to anything he write after his Game of Thrones fame burns out.

>>4807204
This
>>4807398
I wonder if he even would be able to finish the series before dying...

>>4807398
>He knows his audience, and knows what they want
That bro n sis scene fucking in front of their dead son was definitively what their audience want. Is that also in the books?

>>4807787
which scene?

>>4807787
no it's actually switched she has secks with him to further convince him to kill tyrion

ITT mentally retarded people

>>4807067
Doesn't he objectify EVERYONE in his books?
>>4807787
I don't remember it well enough in the books. In the books it was more consensual, but you might only say that since it's written from Jaime's POV. In the book I feel like the point of the scene was Cercei manipulating Jaime, but in the show it seemed like the point of the scene was Jaime finally washing his hands of her and realizing what a cunt she it.

I like the way they changed it actually. That bitch deserved a good raping.

>>4807787
you're telling me you don't like wincest subplots?

I always find it odd how he always makes a point to describe food and clothing in detail.

>>4807067
Oh how terrible. Here, let me play the world's smallest violin for you

>>4807133
>caring about your mind and intellectual poison
>going on 4chan

topkek m8, topkek

>>4809693
This is better

>>4807201
>Sometimes I wonder if he isn't some sort of HBO fabrication, conceived as another character of the series, deployed in real life, to sell also the books, and give advanced heads up to hardcore fans

Doubt it. GRRM is too old / old school. Ditto for the feminist comment. I think he's probably First Wave feminist, as per his age / generation / background... but he's not creating subject matter that 'causes today's crop of lefties to swoon. HBO / D&D realized that with the TV show and that's why we get ubiquitous gay sex / gay apologetics on the show.. it's throwing a bone to today's social progressives.

However, what you describe about GRRM being fictitious himself is an idea that's probably being hatched by numerous writers / studios / media groups this very moment.

Anyone remember that "Transmedia" buzzword everyone was going full retard over a few years back? It didn't go away. It just reached all the people it needed to reach (creatives) many of whom promptly went to work on their decades-long drip-fed Grand Epics.

By the time we're done with these upcoming Star Wars prequel/sequel whateverthefucks that J.J. Abrams is going to disappoint us with, GoT will be wrapping-up and we'll probably start seeing the first "transmedia" projects emerge from the incubators, which unlike ASoIaF / GoT will be perfectly synchronized and tuned for page & screen (as well as other media) - the spoiler issue (mostly) solved as well as not knowing how to end the series (Lost, Battlestar Galactica, probably ASoIaF) since the whole thing will be plotted-out by the author / director / showrunner / transmedia dickfuck artist / whatever.

>>4807135
Not really. People miss the context and leap to that assumption. But really, it's very egalitarian.

Wheel of Time takes place in a world where men literally fucked everything up for thousands of years. There's some understandable cultural backlash against men because of it, but in the end, it's only by both men and women working together that anything really gets done.

RJ was just exploring a world where every woman had a logical reason to be as domineering as his wife.

>>4809693
My point was, every teenage GOT watcher/ASOIAF reader who thinks Martin's works are full of 'strong women' is being rused. They are, in the end, quite weak. Even Dany.

It's like those dumb teenage girls who think Katniss is a strong female character.

>>4809690

You've never encountered that in a fantasy book before?

I have a theory on literary people. There are 2 faces to literature, the good and the entertaining. People fall into different categories. Someone who is good and entertaining rises to the top and eventually becomes canonical. Someone who is entertain but not good becomes like GRIM or Stephen King, Danielle Steel, JR Rowling, etc. They entertain millions but they're not good enough to fit into the framework of literature as high art. Then there are those who are good but not entertaining. This is where you find a lot of teachers and professors, critics, and most of /lit/. They're good at understanding the ins and outs of the medium, they inherently understand literature as high art and are able to object timely quantify it, but their own writing is often not entertaining or creative enough to succeed.

>>4811069
>Everything is twotone!

Why do people feel the need to categorise and generalise in this manner? Why can't writers be taken on an individual basis?

I enjoyed the books, I don't see the problem. Beautiful poetic prose has it's place and it's not everywhere.

>>4811069
Why do people who can't understand or enjoy "good" fiction assume that it's not entertaining or enjoyable to those who can?

>>4811084
They can and are, that doesn't mean that trends don't appear over time and that eventually literature can be placed into a larger framework to more effectively analyze it. It's like saying "everyone is unique so why doesn't modern medicine judge each person as an individual? No matter how unique a person is they fit somewhere into the generalised category of anatomy.

>>4811110
I'm not sure I understand? Are you saying that someone who only likes Fifty Shades of Grey, Twilight, etc. and doesn't care for more advanced forms of prose thinks that I also don't actually enjoy it and I'm just deluded or pretentious?

Why can't I read propperly when I have internet access? I kinda came up with this thought while reading this thread. When I'm in places without internet access I read for 3-4 hours easily, and I'm actually craving to read more. I've read first 3 books in a week or so while I was at my grandfather's ranch in Texas. Then I came back to NY and read only like 2 books since (not TSOIAF). I've been reading each one for around a month or more, superslow.

>people misusing the word "prose"
this is how i can tell you have no right to criticize grrm (nor anyone else for that matter)

>>4811361
what does it mean then

>>4811370
prose is always used as opposed to VERSE
if you call someone's prose bad you are implicitly saying his written verse isn't

>>4811372
what should u say

>>4811376
writing style?

>>4811377
ok thanks x :)

>>4811372
not really, you are just calling his prose bad. if you call someone's son bad and they have a son and a daughter then are you saying their daughter isn't bad?

regardless, it's a phrase that people use and that everyone understands.

>>4811392
+1 for living in the real world and understanding the difference between literal and colloquial.

>>4811315
I want you to take a minute to reflect on your post. Why are really typing those words? What you should have said is "I'm a socially akward guy and I could use someone to talk to right now but you'll have to carry the conversation because I have nothing substantive to contribute to the discussion." I'm sure that's what you meant, because why would a fully functioning literate person ask other people to explain the fucking notion of a distraction? Here's a better question, why in a city with like 1,000 strip clubs and a Paki on every corner selling fake IDs is the internet your main distraction? Go outside, get a lap dance, take in a show, go to Greenwich Village and make fun of all the fucking freaks, post pics here on 4chan, then buy a book go to the park and enjoy it.

Yeah he's okay.

>>4806964

GRRM only stands out because there is so much worse fantasy garbage thrown on the market.

>>4806964
Well he's better than Tolkien, and that's all that matters when it comes to the D&D genre

>>4811419
i agree with going outside but that's not what nyc is like at all

>>4813315
you are the worst poster on this board

maybe tied with omar b or whatever

please justify your actions

>>4806964

American Tolkien; haven't been able to read fiction since I finished over a year ago.

>>4809787
I dunno, Brienne looks like she lifts.