/lit/ - Literature

>>4804674
I don't think it ever was important to me.

I dedicated my life to Jesus; he was my soul; he was my all. I was so naive, struggling to nurture the idea once can find salvation from this existence we didn't choose.

It became too much. My family or God? My friends or God?

Jesus, if you hear, I'm sorry I was weak. I'm sorry I couldn't handle the cross.

It didn't. Even if you're a professional atheist, living in today's world--rife as it is with religious struggles, many of which become political, many of which become world-changing--religion should be important for you.

>>4804685
same

>>4804688
Holy shit (pardon the pun) this is so true. Even if religion has asolutely zero personal meaning at all for you (as it doesn't for me) you still live in a world FULL of people for whom it's the most important thing in the world.

It's like being perfectly sane while living in an insane asylum and someone asking "When did insanity stop becoming important for you?"

>>4804699

>It's like being perfectly sane while living in an insane asylum

epic post +1

>>4804699
I don't think sanity is a fair comparison (I'm the guy who posted up there). Without getting too deep into my personal background, let's just say that I believe in the possibility of a higher power. Most religious people are not, in my experience, zealots. A better comparison might be:

Being the lone foreigner in a room full of people of a different nationality, and all of you are trying to come to a common decision. Even if you're not part of their group, it should still be important to you.

Never was important.

>grow up in Norway
>atheism/agnosticism is the norm
>religious Norwegians are extremely rare and far between
>absolutely no annoying religious people anywhere

Feels good man.

It never did, you samefag.

Lack of religion is the degeneration of events that teenagers in here think that are "literature" or "poesy".

>>4804705

Yes and no.

I mean it's fun and easy to shit on these newkids but lack of religion doesn't necessitate a lack of spiritual growth.

Somewhere around last year.
>Came from religious family.
>Started to question too much when i was around 16.
>They told me i shouldnt question it and just accept whatever was is the bible.
>That only made me quation even more.
>Eventually turn into an atheist.
>Reddit-tier atheist for a few years until i notice how annoying i was.
>Eventually i just realized that it doesnt really matter if god is there or not, so now i just dont really care about it.

i was raised mainly by my mother and she was pretty progressive. it was a fairly gender neutral upbringing (my sister and i had access to whatever toys et cetera) and the attitude to religion was similar. my mother would happily read to us from the religious texts we had, and taught us about religion and its various entailments and requirements and so on. she took us to church a few times because my sister said she wanted to see a christmas service and sing hymns at whatnot. it was never forced on us or pushed as something we needed or were expected to engage with; it was just a potential activity or story like everything else was, quietly provided should we want it.
my sister and i would now probably describe ourselves as agnostics.

it was a nice childhood. i love my mother.

>>4804702
>I don't think sanity is a fair comparison
I do. I think it's over-generous actually. I mean, I believe in the possibility that there's a black hole at the center of the galaxy, but I'm not willing to cut off a woman's clitoris over it.

Bat. Shit. Insanity.

>>4804725

This pic always gives me a chuckle.

>>4804725

>I believe in the possibility that there's a black hole at the center of the galaxy, but I'm not willing to cut off a woman's clitoris over it.

You are conflating so many things right now that it's just draining to even consider making a legitimate response to this kind of moronic pageantry.

I'm glad I don't recognise your name out of the regular fair of trips here. You seem like a fucking dullard.

>>4804688
>>4804702
I don't give a fuck about any religion and I'd say like 90% of the people I interact with neither do. The only religious people I talk to are probably the pakis selling me beer on the streets.

>>4804734
>STUPID IDIOT RETARD FUCKER TOO DUMB FOR ME TO RESPOND HAHA RETARD

>>4804734
stop trying so hard

I'm a militant atheist. Religion is the most important thing in my life.

>>4804734
>You are conflating so many things right now
No I'm not.
> it's just draining to even consider making a legitimate response to this kind of moronic pageantry
>I'm glad I don't recognise your name out of the regular fair of trips here. You seem like a fucking dullard.

^ all that means is that you're incapable of valid rebuttal, so you ink-squirt some ad-hominem and flee.

Sorry you're upset though.

>>4804725
And as I said, most religious people aren't that way. Most aren't zealots. Does it have bad influences? Sure. But there are upsides and downsides to everything, including every religious affiliation, including atheism.

>>4804728
Ha! Saved, thanks.

>>4804728
>memepics

noice anon!

>>4804769
>most religious people aren't that way. Most aren't zealots.
Absolutely! But they follow zealots. And they're usually more than happy to look the other way or excuse the batshit results of that zealotry-- with or without the knowledge that their tacit support is what enables the zealot leadership in the first place.

The entire world has been insane with this nonsense for thousands of years, and the solution is simple and easy: Stop enabling this garbage. Is it responsible for some good things? Sure! But those things can happen without it just as easily. It's a stillborn necrotic baby that I'm more than happy to throw out along with WAY more bathwater than it ever warranted in the first place.

it doesn't work. it doesn't pay off. religion turns you into a loser.

i don't know of a good substitute though.

>>4804798
>>4804798
saying 'meme x' should stop because it is now in itself becoming memetic and it's frustrating and simple lazy criticism and just another buzzword which gets people hot and bothered

visit /mu/: 'memerap is shit' 'nice memerock faggot' 'he's just a memecritic'

visit /fa/: 'don't buy those memeshoes' 'he's a memedesigner'

visit /v/: 'that's a shitty memegame'

ENOUGH MEMEMEMES

maybe you're all a huge postmodern conspiracy designed to make my autism flare
but please stop
mainstream popularity does not equal meme status, as you well know

>>4804863

Nice memememe

>not posting memememememes

>>4804674
Never, as I never believed in good in the first place, but I am totally fine with everyone who is a believer.

I'm really religious, nor have I ever been.

I think I'm happy.

I don't even remember when or why I stopped believing in Christianity. At some point in my childhood I guess.

>>4804728
That's fallacious thinking, anyway. How gigantic/vast the universe seems from our point of view has nothing to do with the significance of our duties to the Lord.

>>4804863
>just another buzzword which gets people hot and bothered

How is "meme__" actually bothering anybody? It's too general to be offensive.

Even though I am an atheist, religion has become more important to me over the years. I have come to believe that religion is an important aspect of a healthy society and that the rights of religious institutions should trump the rights of individuals.

>>4804947
I've heard the first idea before, but not the second. Care to elaborate on your reasoning for it?

>>4804902
Ironic typo of the day award.

I'm really happy too, nor have I never been.

>>4804902
>>4804972
Whoops, meant to put 'not' in between there. Sorry.

But yeah. Not religious.

>>4804947
>the rights of religious institutions should trump the rights of individuals.
So practicing Shākta's who worships Kālī can have their sacrifices?

>>4804925
I'm not that guy but are you really not tired of seeing people post LE X MAYMAY XDDD when they don't like a post? It's getting to the point where retards with say this about any image if they want to be retarded. Like that one that started this conversation. It ends with jesus and is sort of funny
>LE MEME IM MAD NOW LOL

It's fucking retarded.

>>4804705
Puta que pariu tira esse filho da puta daqui, o /lit/ é um dos poucos lugares da minha vida que eu fico livre dessa escória e você me vem postando essa múmia

>>4804804
That's like saying most conservatives would excuse Hitler or most liberals would excuse Stalin. It's just not true.

>>4804674
In high school, but with an abusive gaslighting mother I didn't become atheist until 20

>>4804674
But it only became recently important to be and now I am full of life and yet full hate. Also, take your fedora elsewhere.

>>4804704
I am pretty sure you fuckers have one of the highest suicide rates, or was it the fins.

>>4804989
If the conditions were right, absolutely.

>>4804713
Similar but i went through Wiccan then to Buddism which faded to just trying to reduce everyone's butthurt

>>4804868
I have been enlightened to the god-tier
memememememes!
Excuse me and thank you gentlmen

>>4805051
Having a god gives you purpose were there would otherwise be none
Without an objective most people would hollow

My dads parents were communists and my mother wasn't a practicing christian at all, so I was raised in an entirely neutral household. It's never been particularly important to me

Faith and God on the other hand is an entirely different matter.

>religion
>important
>ever

>>4804687

I don't think Jesus wanted you to wear a cross whatsoever. He wore it himself so no one had to do so, remember?

>>4805219
You mean the cross wore him

>>4805165
I think it says something about the kind is person you are if you need God to give you purpose

>>4804674

It never was, and it became very important in my mid 20's.

Went from atheist to Catholic.

>>4805229

In between deep thought, and ba dum tss. Will think about it, since you seem to know a lot about the issue.

>>4805165
Or you could find your own instead of having one forced upon you?

>>4805244
>Went from atheist to Catholic.
Prisoner to genetics, my ass. Right?

>>4805244
>Went from atheist to Catholic.
0/10

>>4804674
*tips fedora

I'm religious in principle. I don't know if God exists, but I'd like to think he does.

In the end it makes no difference anyway so why do you care?

Protip: If you ascribe to a view of objective morality you are religious.

The West is not secular, it is merely post-Christian.

Progressivism is a non-theistic Christian sect.

>>4805333
jidf pls

>>4805270

Not that anon, but I was an atheist for my whole life until the last few years but now I am a baptized Roman Catholic. I'm 24 though, so I can understand how an 18 year old would think its an impossibility.

>>4805343
You're only 24? Give it a few years, son, and you'll come to your senses.

>>4805331
>In the end it makes no difference anyway so why do you care?

1. Nothing
2. Eternal damnation for breaking God's personal morality
>In the end it makes no difference anyway

>>4804674


Really?

Fuck off. This is a board about books, not leftist atheist faggotry.

>>4805361
I was going to live morally anyway.

>>4805353

Do you really believe in materialism? Its such an outlandish belief, it won't last, look at how many people are depressed or at least unhappy in this materialistic world. The good news is that atheist have no children, within my grand-children's lifetime they will cease to exist.

>>4805353
Who cares about his religion? Better than being a degenerate atheist like you. Go back to being depressed since you believe in no afterlife, faggot.

>>4804728
nice meme!!!! you owned them funDIEs!!
cant wait to tell the guys back at reddit about this one!

>this thread
>been this fedora

My religion is very important to me. I shove my belief in peoples faces, argue, yell, and protest. I slander and belittle anyone who thinks differently from our congregation.

I am an atheist.

>>4804674
I TIP MY FEDORA TO THEE GOOD SIRS XD

>mfw a Christian is trying to say that the Bible doesn't condemn homosexuality near me right now
>mfw Christians in general, except for the Quakers

>>4805410
2/10 didn't mention fedoras

Even as a child I condemned religion. I remember being forced to go to CCD, the equivalent of Sunday school for Catholics, and absolutely hating it. I would constantly wonder how the fuck two people were responsible for all of humanity without inbreeding and how fucking bat-shit Abraham was for almost killing Isaac. As a six year old, religion made no sense. Nothing's changed.

>>4805416
I bet you're one of those guys who take lutheran beliefs, mormon beliefs, and catholic beliefs, declare them contradictory, then claim this makes the belief systems of all three groups completely null

>mfw an atheist near me is rabidly anti-christian but doesn't know the first word in the first book of any other religion

>>4805442
>Catholicism
lel
>Mormon
lel
>Lutheran
lel

All are incredibly stupid in their own unique way, Lutherans are just the least stupid because they don't add in any extra non-Bible foolishness like praying to saints or believing that Jesus went to America.

>>4804674
It was never important for my family. I think religion is a good thing in the sense that it gives morals to live by but they're often misinterpreted to shove hate onto some.

If people want to believe, well that is no business of mine as long as they're not being dicks.

>debate me, chirstian scum
These people need their tongues removed so they never speak and their hands cut off to never write or sign.

Like Bill & Ted say, we all just need to "be excellent to each other".

>>4805410
Well, at least you don't hurt anyone nor use your religion as an excuse to sack and get financial favors.

my parents decided i was christian when i was born
i decided i was an atheist when i was 11
i decided i'm not sure when i turned 19 and started thinking critically about religion
years later i'm still not sure

>>4805011
politics =/= religion.

>>4805635


politics is applied religion

>>4804674
>At what point did religion stop becoming important for you?
are you 12? yes you are.

Life is everything. Life is God. Everything shifts and moves, and this movement is God. And while there is life, there is delight in the self-awareness of the divinity. To love life is to love God. The hardest and most blissful thing is to love this life in one's suffering, in the guiltlessness of suffering.

Leo Tolstoy

>>4805688
sauce?

>>4805654
Not really.

I was around 9 or 10, I think. As I put it to my religion teacher,I just woke up and realized there was no God.

When I suffered greatly from the sudden loss of a loved one and terminal illness. I realized that either God doesn't exist or God doesn't give a fuck, either way he's not worth my time.

>>4804972
>Ironic typo of the day award.
This was my thought, verbatim, when I scrolled to >>4804891
>I never believed in good in the first place

Raised by devout muslims.

Started thinking about no god at the age of 8-9, was godless at 13. Mainly because i was not forced into religion 9-13 years, so i didn't care. They set me up for lessons at 14, after 2 weeks dropped out/ Just went to bed, and said, 'nope, there is no god'.

I was always thinking how god looks like, when i was a kid. Then some kids randomly asks to the muslim teacher how he looks like, he said it was haraam to think about how he looks like, he is divine, insulting to think how he looks like etc..

That was actually the main reason. If he didn't show himself i didn't care for him.

Religion is all fun and games until something terrible happens to you. Terrible as in soul crushing events, not 'my girlfriend cheated on me' terrible.

Raised in an agnostic household so I never understood religion other than for the purpose of congregation. School already does this and my parents instilled strong morals in me so there is no need for it in my life. Not an atheist though.

>have a discussion about religion in a slightly leftist newspaper's comment section a while ago
>argue that you don't have to believe anything but you can still cherrypick a lot of good stories from religious books and read them like any story - some of them even have meaningful teaching to them and are rather interesting from a linguistic point of view
>what followed were 200+ posts about how this is impossible

Well...
I think it is save to say that by now I might hate uptight atheists even more than fundies.
With fundamentals you know at least that you're dealing with nutjobs, but the radicals from the other side act like their slightly autistic uncle shoved a bible up their arse every sunday morning until they were eighteen.

These people are obnoxious as hell and the worst is: Some of them actually have the nerve to call themselves liberals. Yet they can't even wrap their heads around such a moderate concept as the one above.

And you know what OP, considering that concept it's really like you're asking "At what point did Hemingway or Joyce or Goethe stop being important for you?"
Well I tell you when: Never. There is no reason to dismiss texts like that, and I don't know why I should stop or shun away from reading them, only because some internet armchair activist whose dad woke him up too early for church a few times tells me to.

>yfw you realize there is a God

>>4804674


as long as you keep existing, religion is important to you.

When my 7 year old sister drowned and it tore my family apart.

Brothers, have no fear of men's sin. Love a man even in his sin, for that is the semblance of Divine Love and is the highest love on earth. Love all God's creation, the whole of it and every grain of sand in it. Love every leaf, every ray of God's light. Love the animals, love the plants, love everything. If you love everything, you will perceive the divine mystery in things. Once you have perceived it, you will begin to comprehend it better every day, and you will come at last to love the world with an all-embracing love. Love the animals: God has given them the rudiments of thought and untroubled joy. So do not trouble it, do not harass them, do not deprive them of their joy, do not go against God's intent. Man, do not exhale yourself above the animals: they are without sin, while you in your majesty defile the earth by your appearance on it, and you leave the traces of your defilement behind you — alas, this is true of almost every one of us! Love children especially, for like the angels they too are sinless, and they live to soften and purify our hearts, and, as it were, to guide us. Woe to him who offends a child.
My young brother asked even the birds to forgive him. It may sound absurd, but it is right none the less, for everything, like the ocean, flows and enters into contact with everything else: touch one place, and you set up a movement at the other end of the world. It may be senseless to beg forgiveness of the birds, but, then, it would be easier for the birds, and for the child, and for every animal if you were yourself more pleasant than you are now. Everything is like an ocean, I tell you. Then you would pray to the birds, too, consumed by a universal love, as though in ecstasy, and ask that they, too, should forgive your sin. Treasure this ecstasy, however absurd people may think it.

Fyodor Dostoyevsky

>>4805809
But don't let this break your faith in God, anon, he only did it because he loves you and though you would find it funny.

>>4805654
This would explain why this world sucks.

>>4805873
>he only did it because he loves you and though you would find it funny.
fuck God then

You may have noticed that the books you really love are bound together by a secret thread. You know very well what is the common quality that makes you love them, though you cannot put it into words: but most of your friends do not see it at all, and often wonder why, liking this, you should also like that. Again, you have stood before some landscape, which seems to embody what you have been looking for all your life; and then turned to the friend at your side who appears to be seeing what you saw -- but at the first words a gulf yawns between you, and you realise that this landscape means something totally different to him, that he is pursuing an alien vision and cares nothing for the ineffable suggestion by which you are transported. Even in your hobbies, has there not always been some secret attraction which the others are curiously ignorant of -- something, not to be identified with, but always on the verge of breaking through, the smell of cut wood in the workshop or the clap-clap of water against the boat's side? Are not all lifelong friendships born at the moment when at last you meet another human being who has some inkling (but faint and uncertain even in the best) of that something which you were born desiring, and which, beneath the flux of other desires and in all the momentary silences between the louder passions, night and day, year by year, from childhood to old age, you are looking for, watching for, listening for? You have never had it. All the things that have ever deeply possessed your soul have been but hints of it -- tantalising glimpses, promises never quite fulfilled, echoes that died away just as they caught your ear. But if it should really become manifest -- if there ever came an echo that did not die away but swelled into the sound itself -- you would know it. Beyond all possibility of doubt you would say "Here at last is the thing I was made for". We cannot tell each other about it. It is the secret signature of each soul, the incommunicable and unappeasable want, the thing we desired before we met our wives or made our friends or chose our work, and which we shall still desire on our deathbeds, when the mind no longer knows wife or friend or work. While we are, this is. If we lose this, we lose all.

C.S. Lewis

Everyone in this thread who claims religion has no significance in their lives misunderstands the question. As does the poster of the inquiry, I am certain.

The societal doctrines which govern society are every bit as dogmatic and faith-based as any mythology. None of us are above this pragmatic self-preservation. We choose to belong to that with which we ally ourselves for various benefits only because we have bought in to a particular value system.

While I despise theology, I can certainly appreciate the necessity of it. We are not a rational race. There is no such thing. We are animals burdened with the curse of perspective.

Some believe that this ability to reason contends a higher level of consciousness than other forms of life coexisting on the planet. That is the basis of their own religion. They believe that humans inherently own whatever they might occupy or covet. That due to their increased capacity, they are the overlords, or perhaps mere guardians. This, too, is a myth. It is one of the greatest. Might makes right. The strong prevail over the weak. Even as one scorns the idea, they encapsulate the essence. You cannot exist peacefully in western society without doing so.

Fuck me, this rambling. Sorry. WIll go play some vidya and relax now.

>>4805920

when my parents divorced.

I think the last time I actually prayed to god was when I was 12 and I would pray to God to make divorce not a thing so that my parents would stay together. Was raised catholic so I went to catechism as a kid and never really took it seriously. I would try to find dumb little questions to ask but I still believed in God.

When I was about 13 or 14 was when I basically stopped believing in God. Never got around to doing my confirmation and my Mom worked too much to really go to church or get me to go to church so we kind of stopped going.

Church was more of a thing when my parents were still together.

>>4804687
>implying being a christian is hard

just don't be a decadent cunt and spread dem good vibes

>>4805391
>>4804798
Why does any retort to attacks on certain grotesque aspects of religion (such as sex being evil and all that) always boils down to "tips fedora epic reddit maymay suck dawkins' dick"?

>>4806648
So, what, you're just redefining "religion" until its something that of necessity must be significant to people? I reject that premise.

You're basically just describing the human condition and calling it 'religion'. I call bullshit on that.

>>4806724
I took it to mean that the human condition made religion, and brings dogma into everything else.

>>4806705
>Oh and believe in a bunch of archaic bullshit, an evil "all-loving" creator and a magical kike who wasn born and died differently than every other person who ever lived, ever

Fuck off cultist. Go attach BDSM equipment to your leg for atonement or whatever you fucking faggots do.

>>4806705
>decadent
oh dear, there you go

>you will never be a weed smoking, misogynist, racist african diaspora caribbean man living by the old testament and get praised and appreciated for it by white people

>>4806730
Even if you read it that way, the premise is still that religion is somehow vital. It isn't.

>>4806733
>believes there's an alternative universe somewhere exactly like this one with the only difference being that black cats sometimes whistle a few short notes of bach
>thinks the father and the son are absurd

STEM fedoras, fraters and sorors.

I know it's meaningless, but watching "The Last Temptation of Christ" affected me greatly.

What if...what if...Jesus was actually God? How would that change our lives?

I'm a cultural Christian and still attend sermons despite not believing in the Christian god.

>>4806791
Well, it means you have eternal life, for starters.

>>4806813

Damn. Either Jesus was a manipulative lunatic, or he really was...God.

>>4806811
Well then that makes you a fucking moron

>religion

roflmao, seriously guys its not the 17th century anymore

>>4806840
*tips fedora*

>>4806842
see >>4806719

>>4805009
CALABOCA CARALHO SEU ESQUERDOPATA DE MERDA , PUTZ MANO A GENTE NEM E MUITO BEM VINDO AQUI E JA VEM UM ROSQUINHA(SIM ROSQUINHA , ADORA TOMAR UMA NO RABO , PRINCIPALMENTE SE FOR DO ESTADO) FODER GERAL , PORRA ANAO !!!!

>>4806850
didn't read. enjoy being damned by the almight Lord

>>4805375
But atheism is a idea , i can dye and left no children but my ideas can survive and affect YOUR half brained children , Protip : U cannot kill ideas

WATCHU GONNA DOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO?

>>4804674
Around 10 stop believing in God. My parents never took me to church since their also non-religious the subject was never really mentioned. When I was 15 or so I was a rabid reddit type atheist. Now at 19 I tend to think of religion as generally a good thing for many people and I have relaxed considerably on the subject.

I understand the value of spiritual thinking but I find most aspects of religion too grotesque to be taken seriously. Especially when dealing with food and sex. Seriously, why do people care that much about what other people put in their orifices?

>>4804685
This.

>>4806908
>Protip : U cannot kill ideas
ideas are carried by brains and text. destroy all the brains and texts with the idea and its gone.

>>4806733
>actually thinking you have to believe that
>not realizing christian is a label and a political tool like anything else

>>4806948
So they can test if you're a heathen and traitor.

>>4804704
Holy sheit , i really envy u Norfag , im from Brazil as u can see in my later post and my mom is a fucking lunatic protestant fanatic and endocrinated me till my 12's . Before i started thinking for myself i was just as fanatical as her , fuck i even preached when she travelled with me to a "preaching travel" to the country side , nowadays i still live with her as a "closet atheist" i go to church normally but secretly i just wish to see the church burning in a fire hole

>>4804947
I'm glad you have no way of imposing your ideas on the world. I'm glad you, and people like you are in their sunset years.

>>4806979
Even Catholic church in the apice of its power had the capacity to destroy subversive texts and new ideas

>>4806948
enjoy your STDs

>>4807007
burzhuem tiem

>>4807032
Holy fuck wherediya got this , holy shit im willhave a FUCKING HEART ATTACK!!!!

>>4807027
not if I use protection and have sex with trusted people
retard

>>4807043
just googled "varg vikernes brazil" m8

>>4805439
>Nothing's changed.
That's obvious. You still have the mental capabilities of a six year old.

>>4806747
No, no, I didn't mean to come across as implying that religion is vital. However, it is pervasive and damned near all inclusive. Insidious is more the angle for which I was aiming.

All cultures embrace certain myths. Even as a minority of that culture may reject a portion of that belief system, it tends to not disrupt the remainder which benefits that minority. And it certainly has little bearing on the whole.

I'm not really speaking to religion as organized faith. I'm observing that all human action is based on the same faith that many, perhaps unwittingly, choose to apply also to theology.

Man, I really don't want to get into examples, but there are many, and they basically act to keep the peace. Combined, often accidentally, into a system of beliefs, they gentrify the populace into submission just as readily as organized religion, though mostly they are borne of self-preservation.

Shit. It's almost 1am, and I'm going to bed.

>>4807032
>>4807043
>>4807348
>brazilians on /lit/

religion was (hopefully) the precursor to the new enlightenment of humanity. the ULTIMATE enlightenment, which will hopefully occur this century (i hope so). religion pointed towards the 'spirit' or 'inner-being' (i have heard that the 'Te' of the Tao Te Ching basically represents spirit). once humanity realizes the ultimate beauty and infinite love of the universe, human suffering will begin to die out.

>>4805798
Best comment in this thread.

>tfw you study esoterics and can never talk about it with anyone irl

Its not like talking about it does any good anyway, but yea

>>4805798
>With fundamentals you know at least that you're dealing with nutjobs, but the radicals from the other side act like their slightly autistic uncle shoved a bible up their arse every sunday morning until they were eighteen.
That's probably because they are reacting against a religious environment, which is the proverbial autistic uncle bible shover. It's hard to get people this butthurt about religion in actual secular societies.

When I found my Christmas presents from Santa a week early.

>>4805920

what book is that from? it's very powerful.

I thought it stopped being in my life when I decided I was an atheist at age 13
Then it didn't become a part of my life when atheism disgusted me circa age 15
Now I recognize the beauty that religion inspires in people and am open to spirituality, though quite certain the God as envisaged by Christianity, Judaism or Islam doesn't real. fuck atheists.

>>4809504
http://www.fellowshipoffaith.org/images/files/upload/Problem_of_Pain.pdf

>>4809532
Why is C.S. Lewis so damn good? He's probably one of the most convincing advocates for or defenders of Christianity in the modern age I've read.

>>4811485
Because he very much needed to believe.

>>4804674
at no point.

>>4806756

>evidence

There's the difference

>>4804687
You are weak, weak in belief.

>>4804674
during puberty.
Fortunately puberty has passed

>>4804674

Religion is important cos THE WORLD IS A VAMPIRE dun dun dun dun dun duuu dun dun

>>4804687

http://see_the_truth.webs.com/Jesus_Christ.htm

Enlighten yourself. Jesus WAS a cool guy but he was co-opted by teh Jews into a dogmatic belief system condoning mass slavery of peoples.

It is truly the opium to the masses. Religion continues to be important to me for different reasons.

When I first read a Dawkins book. I really had my EYES OPENED MAAAN.

Nah, actually it probably happened around the second time my alcohol/amphetamine addictions kicked up again.

But then, everything kinda stopped being important. Luckily, I'm now dead.

>>4804699
I agree, so much ad hominemm. I'm just happy to be enlightened as long as the mindless sheeples follows their religion / indoctrination. It is rather euphoric to be the only sane man among the insane.

>>4804674
When I realized that religiousness is way more important.

A life without religion is perfectly fine. A life without religiousness is boring and a waste.

>>4809522

this. i was a muslim until i became an atheist at 14. At 15 I realised I was nothing but a dick, then all the indian literature and writers such as John Milton and Dante, and my family in general showed me that spirituality atleast is extremely important. I think militant atheists such as the fedora faggots in this threads are woefully ignorant to that, and too indulgent on their intelligence simply because they found that everyone is wrong except them - which is hilarious.

I personally still don't believe in God though I think that one could exist.

>>4807007
Puta que pariu, eu não sei o que é pior, sua orientação política, seu inglês ou o cheiro de ATEA que emana dessa sua vida horrível

I grew up in a strong catholic family, but they never really forced me to go to church or anything, mostly because my dad is somewhat of a closet atheist, but when I was around 11 or 12, I started becoming your typical pre-pubescent metalhead edgy cunt, and my mom tried to take me to church, which I vehemently denied.

Now, I regret being a heathen atheist and wish I could see the beauty in the world the way normal religious people do (still have a utmost disdain to fundies, be them theist or atheist), and every now and then I will pretend I'm religious just to piss dawkintards off.

Also, ever since I read Q by Luther Blissett and stuff like the Masks of God, Mircea Eliade and the Golden Branch I've been seeing the importance of religion in the human narrative and seeing it as essential to society, as long as it doesn't intervene in the day to day life

>>4808547
Whatever, Hegel.

>>4812258
>I've been seeing the importance of religion in the human narrative and seeing it as essential to society, as long as it doesn't intervene in the day to day life

first part doesn't seem to fit with the second

>>4806719
Because the attacks are always inevitably based on simplifications of these aspects of religion.

>>4804674
>Way maybe 10 years old
> had just been told in Church that babies that were not baptised could not go to heaven
>know that I was never baptised (no idea why, my eldest 2 brothers were, but me and closest brother were not)
>can't sleep because I cant stop thinking about going to hell before I get a chance to be baptised
>decide that that was a stupid fucking thing to keep me awake as the whole thing seemed to be out of my hands, and the idea that God would send me to hell over such a trivial thing seemed stupid so I just decided to stop caring
>took me a couple of days to stop feeling guilty but I never looked back.

Now I instantly look down on religious people, I don't mean to do it, I just think they are some how weaker.

I was 10 and learned what atheism was when I was reading Empire of the Sun.

That was that.

>>4813025
What? Were you a Baptist or something? Catholics baptise babbies ASAP right after they're born and entrust anyone who wasn't able to get baptised to the Grace of God, they don't just ship them right off to hell.

>>4813043
If I'm honest I have no idea what sect I was a part of, but that is how I understood the situation at the time.
I know my parents used to fight over religion a lot and I think my Mom gave in to him with the last too kinds, otherwise we would have been baptised right away.
I've been christened, and I've been confirmed, what does that mean?

>>4813095
*two
sorry, i've had a few

>>4813025

unbaptised children go to the limbo of the infants. it's a fine place to be, supposedly. not at all a punishment. i realise that it was all over the papers a few years ago 'VATICAN CLOSES LIMBO' etc but they didn't. they just released a document that talked about the hope that infants may have salvation through god's grace. people are free to think whatever about it though, limbo or heaven. limbo wasn't a revelation, i think it was put forward as an explanation of some circumstances by augustine.

It never was.

Although religious texts are sometimes interesting, and religion is obviously an important part of many societies, I don't really see a good reason to believe any of them are true.

>>4813043
I wasn't aware that the allocation of one's immortal soul to the fiery flames of Hell or green pastures of Heaven was up to specific members of clergy.

>>4813095
>confirmed

Catholicism does confirmation; it's one of the seven sacraments. Orthodoxy may do it also.

>>4804908
But on such a grand scale it really does feel contrive.

Probably after a compulsory school mass. The priest had me so terrified of hell that I was almost in tears, and frantically praying to save my soul, when Shane Kennedy, the boy to my right who could see my fear, laughed and said "calm down, God doesn't actually exist, they only say this shit to make you behave." I was absolutely livid at having been manipulated. Many more relevant events came later, but that morning and the anger i felt was the turning point.

>>4814106
fucking Shane

Religious feelings are impossible to overcome.

>>4814117
And God most certainly exists. This Universe couldn't come up out of nowhere; yet what do we know of it is zero.

>>4814117
>>4814128
You haven't learned to put faith in your consciousness, have you?

>>4814128
Who is God, and what does he matter for my life?

>>4814128
>And God most certainly exists. This Universe couldn't come up out of nowhere

>>4814136
You don't understand that image, if you do, explain it so, taking in account Kurt Godel's refutal of logical reasoning.

>>4814132
Not having faith in consciousness is having faith too. Faith in the none. And, honestly, it requires more faith to doubt your senses than to accept what you capture.

>>4814157
There is no faith in the none. The none is particularly the state of being forced to choose and refusing.

Have you no sense at all?

>>4814159
>>4814159
>The none is particularly the state of being forced to choose and refusing.
Explain

>>4814128
And God's God most certainly exists. God couldn't come up out of nowhere; yet what we do know of it is zero.

>>4814136
>I still don't understand what nothing means

>>4814175
Anon, the laws of physics that you use to describe the universe don't apply to God.

>>4814175
Ecks dee anon. Are we back in elementary school reasoning?

>>4814161
You don't have to have faith in nothing. Having faith in your ability to think is the second step

>>4814194
You still haven't surpassed faith. That's the only thing I mean. We are always faithful to something.

>>4814203
Nope.

>>4814157
>>4814157
>Kurt Godel's refutal of logical reasoning.
Lit is getting worse every day. Some guy tried to convince me that Sam Harris solved ethics last week.

>>4814217
It's because /lit/ is infested with actually not-ironic religious people who shitpost 24/7

>>4814217
>Some guy tried to convince me that Sam Harris solved ethics last week.
He has.

"Harris contends that the only moral framework worth talking about is one where "morally good" things pertain to increases in the "well-being of conscious creatures". He then argues that, problems with philosophy of science and reason in general notwithstanding, 'moral questions' will have objectively right and wrong answers which are grounded in empirical facts about what causes people to flourish.

Challenging the age-old philosophical notion that we can never get an 'ought' from an 'is', Harris argues that moral questions are best pursued using, not just philosophy, but the methods of science. Thus, "science can determine human values" translates to "science can tell us which values lead to human flourishing". It is in this sense that Harris advocates that scientists begin conversations about a normative science of "morality".

Now that he's solved ethics, hard consciousness, and qualia, he's moving on to the problem of induction.

>>4814217
Kurt Godel proved the existence of God through logic so he could mock that kind of reasoning. "Lit is getting worse every day" is not an argument, try again.

>>4813095
Confirmation, curiously enough, takes place after being baptised in most denomination. Sounds like you were in a bit of a wonky situation as a kid if you've had that but not the baptism.

>>4814136
A better and less ambiguous way of putting what he likely means is
>The universe is contingent, and not necessary. There is no reason for it to exist or to have ever come into existence, it is not necessary for it to exist or illogical for it to not exist. All contingent things rely for their existence or truth on another thing.

>>4814228
>It is in this sense that Harris advocates that scientists begin conversations about a normative science of "morality".
>a normative science of "morality."

Wow. That's some dumb shit right there.

>>4814228
Wow, that is an awfully obtuse way of saying "I'm a utilitarian."

>>4814296

>he thinks there is more than one thing
>he thinks things can 'enter' and 'exit' existence

dualists plz go

>>4814296
He's saying that the spontaneous existence of a physical universe can be explained within out current models of quantum mechanics if the 'potential' for gravitational fluctuation exists in the absence of matter.

>>4814475
>if the 'potential' for gravitational fluctuation exists in the absence of matter.
>exists in the absence of matter
>exists in the absence

How can anything 'exist' in Nothing?

>>4814484
There isn't nothing. There is the potential for something non-physical - gravity - to exist in the absence of physical matter. He's saying IF that is true, then a spontaneous universe can be explained logically, and WITHIN a model based on empirical observation.

>>4814489
>There isn't nothing. There is the potential

Why? Where did it come from?

>>4814495

Also these are earnest questions, I'm not trying to imply >WELL GOD HAD TO MAKE IT or something

>>4814495
>Why? Where did it come from?

>he thinks things can enter and exit existence.
>he probably thinks existence came from something non-existent, like God.

Laughing my entire ass off.

>>4814495
Honestly, I have no idea. But there are three implications. The first that the potential for a force to treat energy in a specific way is constant. So, if there was another universe, or our universe created with a very different ratio of elementary particles or quarks, gravity would be the same. The second, that the potential for a force to exists if matter was there, isn't quite as relevant as implication three: that matter can appear at a fixed point via gravitational fluctuation (the explanation I had was to visualize a skipping rope under tension, swayed gently - by gravity acting upon itself - slowly snowballing in momentum until the entropy of a potential force causes a -/+ of matter, with matter and dark matter being created). I won't pretend I fully understand the equation for the latter, or the one in that pic, but am told it's logically coherent without the need for strings.

>>4814475
That's right, that's why I revised the argument to one that is both clearer and stronger than the original one.

>>4814505

Don't be simple, son.

>I'm not trying to imply >WELL GOD HAD TO MAKE IT or something

If you don't have an answer, keep it moving.

>>4814527

>i covered my ass by saying existence doesn't have to come from "God"

no you didn't cover your ass. The question you are asking makes a baseless assumption and caricature of reality.

The point is that existence by definition doesn't come from anything, it doesn't go anywhere. Things don't enter it, and things don't leave it.

You truly will never be a philosophical genius like myself.

>>4814521

Thanks for explaining this.

I guess the issue for me boils down to the fundamental forces, as I (poorly) understand them. To say something like

>implication three: that matter can appear at a fixed point via gravitational fluctuation

Answers the question in a sense, but not without raising another. The idea of forces "just being there" to me just indicates that we haven't really answered the real question at all.

>>4814530
>no you didn't cover your ass. The question you are asking makes a baseless assumption and caricature of reality.

OK

If you're not trolling, please explain why my basic assumptions are wrong so I can reevaluate them. I'm really not attached to any particular explanation or way of thinking about things.

Have patience with me, for I'm but a lowly social sciences/humanities person with a very poor understanding of Real Science.

>The point is that existence by definition doesn't come from anything, it doesn't go anywhere. Things don't enter it, and things don't leave it.

What would this imply re the existence of the universe? That the big bang somehow occurred after we were chilling in singularity mode for an infinite amount of time?

>You truly will never be a philosophical genius like myself.

Alas.

>>4814556
>The idea of forces "just being there" to me just indicates that we haven't really answered the real question at all.
The question can never be objectively answered with a bayesian probability of 100% anyway, but having a coherent explanation within our mathematical models of physics is important too. The problem you and I, and probably everyone on this board, has is that there really isn't a way of structuring that explanation using linguistics. So the semantic constructs we are juggling with for comprehension; words like 'existence,' 'gravity,' 'creation' etc; words that we are, in this case, using to describe a mathematical model which describes our perception of reality just fall apart as we superimpose them on top of complex equations without the adequate terminology to comprehend the idea.

"The idea of forces "just being there" " appears absurd because the semantic models built for us deny us the ability to conceive of that, yet mathematically it is sound within it's own system.

>>4814556
Yes, we must determine whether or not these forces are "necessary-true" or contingent. For something to be necessary-true, or true and not contingent, it must be logically impossible for it to be otherwise. If it is not logically impossible for it to be false, we can conclude that it could be false under some conditions, and is therefore contingent and relies on something else for truth. You're asking the right questions here.

For example, it is necessarily true that square circles don't exist, because they are logically impossible by definition. It is necessarily false that it is raining and not raining outside, because this is logically impossible and a contradiction. The statement "it is raining somewhere" is contingent, and whether it's true depends on other things or values, such as the location of the particular somewhere, the statement is false for the Sahara desert, but true for a rain forest, for example.

So a better question here isn't "The universe came from a physical nothing, so what made it?" Because we know (huge simplification incoming) that these forces can act in physical nothingness. A better question is asking whether these forces are necessarily true (that is, "Is it logically impossible for these forces to not exist?") or whether they are contingent, and therefore must rely on something else to be true or existent for them to be true or existent.

So we have to look at these properties and determine this, is existence a necessary property of gravity? Are there any inherent contradictions that stem from gravity not existing that would make it logically impossible, like a square circle? From what I can tell, the answer is no, which means it must be contingent and depends on something else.

This question is a bit more complicated and difficult to answer than "Can something come from physical nothing?", but it's also more interesting and likely to give a useful answer for our purposes.

>>4814573
>That the big bang

even scientists don't claim the big bang is the start of reality/existence.

>>4814580
>the semantic models built for us deny us the ability to conceive of that

This is something that I've considered before without ever bothering to examine it in depth. I guess I know what I need to do. Thanks again

>>4814602
>even scientists don't claim the big bang is the start of reality/existence.

Shows how diligently I keep up with science. What have I missed?

>the start of reality/existence.

Also, didn't you say that language like this is symptomatic of a wrong way of thinking? Or are you distinguishing between "starting" and "coming from"?

fuck this shit

>>4814602
The big bang *is* the start of reality. This is namely, our reality. This universe is basically one giant big container for our reality.

Scientists just don't claim that this is the only reality.

>>4814625
>Also, didn't you say that language like this is symptomatic of a wrong way of thinking?
You're talking to multiple people.

>>4814625

>start of reality

le contradictory idea

>>4814600
>A better question is asking whether these forces are necessarily true (that is, "Is it logically impossible for these forces to not exist?") or whether they are contingent, and therefore must rely on something else to be true or existent for them to be true or existent.

>re there any inherent contradictions that stem from gravity not existing that would make it logically impossible, like a square circle? From what I can tell, the answer is no, which means it must be contingent and depends on something else.

Fair enough.

Maybe I'm thinking about this the wrong way, but talk of any sort of "necessary existent" smacks of theology. The idea of something HAVING to exist, period, seems to deify it.

But perhaps like that post above implied this is more of a problem of language.

>>4804804
>>4804804
>The entire world has been insane with this nonsense for thousands of years, and the solution is simple and easy: Stop enabling this garbage

I completely agree. It's not just the religious that are problem, it's the theist-enablers.

>>4814643
>The big bang *is* the start of reality. This is namely, our reality. This universe is basically one giant big container for our reality.
>Scientists just don't claim that this is the only reality.

I'm vaguely aware of this. Is the idea that we aren't supposed to be able to comprehend beginnings and such shit because they lie beyond the horizon of our own reality?

>>4814648

I didn't say it bruh.

But why is it contradictory?

>>4814655
>I'm vaguely aware of this. Is the idea that we aren't supposed to be able to comprehend beginnings and such shit because they lie beyond the horizon of our own reality?

Reality is basically synonymous with our universe. An alternative history world for example would be contained in a different reality, a parallel universe.

Scientists are right now trying to find traces of a previous reality within this one. It's a bit speculative at this time, but it would be cool to find something.

>>4814655
>But why is it contradictory?

Reality is all inclusive, whatever exists is part of Reality.

by definition nothing can be beyond Reality, if we say X exists beyond reality or before reality we are making a contradiction of terms -- X automatically is "part of reality" by virtue that it exists...so all separations are negated this way.

Temporal, spatial, causal, all separations are gone.

nothing goes in reality or goes out of it, nothing begins it or ends it, nothing causes it or destroys it. etc

>>4814650
>The idea of something HAVING to exist
This is one of the main claims of Christianity, that the idea that something, the universe or the forces in it, HAS to exist at all is false, and that there could just as easily be a metaphysical "nothing" without even any forces to act on themselves instead of a universe. The universe and the forces in it are contingent, not necessary.

The Christian claim is that because the universe is contingent and not "necessary" or "necessarily true" as mentioned, but exists despite a lack of any necessary reason means that there must be something constantly sustaining its existence, otherwise it logically cannot exist.

Briefly, nothing HAS to exist, but it does. Which means that this contingent "something" instead of "nothing" is sustained or relies on something else for its truth or existence, otherwise, neither having to exist nor being necessary, it does not exist. I hope all the "has" and "having" statements don't act as a turn-off, but there's no other succinct way to put it. It might be easier to imagine them as a series of connected objects or a flow chart.

I'm gonna head to bed now, but I'll check back tomorrow if the thread is still up. This is probably one of the stronger logical arguments for God's existence that I've seen, it's worth examining closely.

You guys are all fucking stupid. Remember the brain in a vat? Well that's kinda like how reality is. The laws of physics are total bollocks, only God is pumping that shit into your head and making it look real coz if you knew the truth of reality you would be able to kill him. God knows what hostile malicious cunts we are, and has had to implement safeguards for his own protection. "Well we are here but there is no explanation." Really? How can you be so blind? You can't have the explanation because if you did, if you truly understood the nature of God and reality, the aces from his hand would be removed and you could kill him.

There wasn't a point for me at least at which I found religion totally unimportant. Me being 17 today, I have spent 15 years being a Pentecostal Christian. That means that EVERYTHING in the Bible is taken fucking seriously and needs to be applied in real life. Handshakes and parental hugs were the only acceptable form of touching, besides everything else. Being a real believer, that was my utmost goal to life: preserve the faith in me. Things got difficult tho. When I was 14, I started losing all of my friends, and even the social circle of the church's peers didn't accept me as being one of their 'company', because they themselves weren't faithful enough. Even they didn't abide by the Bible's laws; they sweared, talked about sex and bullshit etc., something which really disturbed me back then. Along with my questioning, I found it unfair for me to live a life so preventing, but seeing everyone else living a life so free. I found it somehow not so thoughtful of God that there is only one road to salvation. Months later, I got some new friends. 1 of them happened to be atheist. After countless word-fights, conversations, criticism etc. I began to rethink about what I thought of as true and valiant. It was surprising for me to find that my faith was founded totally on logical fallacies and misconception about life. Today, being an agnostic, I still find religion important, because I understand how people in my country get their ideologies from Christianity, being an avid Bible reader in the past. Religion is still a quite big influence on people, whether I like it or not. Ignoring it would have part of the equation missed.

>>4814858
>Me being 17 today
In under 30 mins you will receive a years ban. Enjoy.

I'm religious, in the since that all myth and dogma attempt to point to something inherent to existence. The problem is that the masses will always, always, follow the myth and dogma, and not what it is pointing to. This is why I prefer Buddhism over other religions, because of its efficacy at keeping the myth in its proper place. But once you realize the function of the myth, all the major religious text reveal their beauty, the thing which modern religious debates, form both sides, ignore.

>>4816371
I hate how Buddhist consider themselves religious. You are not religious.

>>4816474
Well then I guess it comes down to what the meaning of the word "religious" is. If you don't think I'm religious, then I'm not religious.

>>4814858
>Me being 17 today

Goodbye.

>>4814858
>Me being 17 today
I'm sure you meant 18, right?
Yeah, certainly.

>>4805798
You're so brave.

>At what point did religion stop becoming important for you?

When Listerine and Colgate could no longer mask the taste of the priests throbbing tabernacle.

Obviously, when I was, for the 25th time, in the ocular ward of a hospital, waiting for the 25th eye-surgery. Why did I have to suffer so much that I couldn't even think of anything good about my life? Why did God had such fun with me that he had abandoned me when I was just 3 FUCKING DAYS OLD?
He was a fooler, and nothing more.