/lit/ - Literature

nice creepy pic

Atheist from a catholic family, if that counts

Hahahaha, not me. I'm an atheist because I actually know about science.

>>4708550
>tfw being a Catholic in New England

>>4708564
>Loving fellow human beings is bad !
>You should be edgy like Ayn Rand and Nietzsche !

is this gay

Hahahaha, not me. I'm orthodox because I actually know about state-sponsored values.

>>4708565
>>4708566

>>4708577
That's just silly and I know you're not serious
but
I can't be the only one getting incestuous pedophilic vibes here

>>4708586


EO bros WWA

>>4708597
Why ?
I'm Catholic and I love children and life itself, I volounteer to help at the local kindergarten etc when they need me.

You have just been brainwashed by a destructive modernist influence that sexualizes everything.

>>4708566

>>4708626
>false absolutes

pretty based

I'm not a Catholic but I think Bishop Richard Williamson is god-tier.

The rest of the Catholic Church is awful.

Lapsed Catholic Masterrace

I'm confirmed and am observing lent this year, but I can't say a believe it all

Ex-Protestant who converted to Catholicism at 23 reporting in.

>>4708626
>purify science from false absolutes
Removing false absolutes? Isn't that more philosophy's job? Pretty sure Theologians are the masters of false absolutes. Unless of course you want to approve of God as a true absolute, but then you have absolutely no way to do it reasonably, and therefore whatever you use to defend your absolutes can be used to defend some other absolutes which are in direct confrontation with yours. This makes little sense.
>idolatry
As in worshipping the created? How can you argue for the worship of the Judeo-Christian not to be idolatry?

This shit cray.

>>4708674
what made you switch? How did your family react?

What was the last theology/religious work everybody's read?

Last month I finished St. Francis de Sales' "The Introduction to the Devout Life," also called the "Philothea." It sort of took me by surprise, because it's not really a book of theology as I had assumed. Rather, it's more of a guide to how you can live everyday life in a holier, more devout way. The chapters are super short, and the writing is very clear and simple. Some of the analogies that rely on animal behavior are sort of cringe-inducing in their wrongness, but it doesn't detract from the work.

I wish I knew French, I'm told Francis' French is very nice, but again, even in translation it was simple and straightforward.

>>4708697
>2014
>doesn't realize Catholicism basically invented modern philosophy
>being this pleb

>>4708588
Whoa, who is that guy? He makes some good points. Feels good to have rational people on my side. Atheists unite!

>>4708724
I've spent the last two years studying very closely the texts of Boethius. The last work I read was The Theological Tractates.

Can someone link the pope Francis text where he smashes neoliberalism ?

>>4708588
Can't ANY of these people shave

I don't mind that you're an atheist, it doesn't make me sad or anything, but for the love of Christ can you not be a fat neckbeard

>>4708565
Kill yourself, since nothing came out of nothing.

>>4708806
>taking any pope after Pius XII seriously

>>4708724
Why embrace the Swedenborg doctrines by a relative of George Bush named George Bush. Probably the oldest shit i've held, it's from the 1890s.

Irish Catholic here

Raised catholic but I can't manage to believe.

>>4708806
also interested

>believing a man performed miracles, died, and came back to life after three days
>based on no proof other than eye-witness accounts recorded 2,000 years ago

Where my tippers at?

Catholicism is one of those things you have to be born into because it's so unappealing that outsiders sure as shit wouldn't waste time or effort on it. (See also: Mormonism, Judaism, and being a citizen of Nebraska)

I was raised Catholic and it makes me laugh out loud to think of all the dumb shit I "had" to do as a kid.

>>4708878
>believing the greatest philosopher of all time didn't exist despite all the historical evidence

>>4708878
If Jesus was merely a philosopher, I think I could easily get behind Christianity.

Somehow, being a magician adds a layer of sensationalism to the whole thing that makes it repulsive.

>>4708886
>greatest philosopher of all time

Stretching it more than just a bit.

>>4708878
You think they actually believe that stuff? The nice part about religion is that you can choose the bits you like à la carte and you can interpret the texts in whichever way you want and still identify with the religion. Oh, and did I mention you get to hang out with all of your relatives in heaven once you die (provided you've chosen to believe in that part of the religion)? Sounds like a pretty sweet deal to me!

>>4708878
I was born and raised a Catholic and I dont believe any of that.

>>4708886

Who said he didn't exist? Lots of men exist. None have yet to be proven gods.

>>4708902
Disingenuousness: The Post

>>4708891
But the church is magic! It allows retarded autists to hook up with submissive sluts who will carry their seed.

If people just looked at it logically they would see that being an angry atheist is just making life more difficult for themselves.

>>4708907

Then you're not Catholic anymore.

>>4708729
>2014
>Believes Catholicism basically invented modern philosophy
>being this much of a deluded child

Feel free to believe all the absurd things you like. I will not stop you from it. The line is drawn at uneducated claims without any support besides reference to authors. If you want to argue for something, shit better make sense. Although I don't really think you will argue for it as it would require too great an effort. Calling the guy a Pleb was really transparent.

>>4708882
Edgy much?

>>4708933
Edgy? No, just straight talk.

>>4708882
>it makes me laugh out loud to think of all the dumb shit I "had" to do as a kid.

ever blow a priest?

>>4708718

different things, mostly I like the latin singsong frankincense voodoo crap, but I was also in a Catholic fraternity at that time. I did have a 'Jesus is my XTC' speech prepared for people who ask me why, but I'm not that devout anymore. I still pray a lot but hardly ever go to curch. My family was okay with it, father is Catholic anyway, my mother was slightly miffed since she is the protestant one but I've never heard her refer to herself as religious in any way outside of Christmas and she used to be a Communist back when it was cool (60s/70s).

>>4708902
That'd be being a protestant, and protestants are faggots.

Besides, that's what the doctrine is for, to connect the loose ends in the bible like miracles and such.

>>4708898
You got to admit that bringing philosophy to the people through religion was brilliant.
What use is philosophy for society if it's only for patricians?

>>4708944
>she used to be a Communist back when it was cool (60s/70s).

1860's/1870's?

>>4708931
>Who kept science and philosophy alive in the middle ages?
>BUT HURR DURR MUH CARL SAGAN SAID ALEXANDRIA
>>4708923
pic related, Catholic qt3.14 waifu on left

>>4708963
>really believing that girls differ this much just because they've had your pathetic cock in them

>>4708948
Too bad hardly anyone who identifies as Christian follows the philosophy of Christ. A lot of your so-called "Bible thumpers" would blow a gasket each if they had to come to terms with praying in your closet, turning the other cheek, loving your enemies, and letting the dead bury the dead.

>>4708963
>that pic

Figments straight out of a fat virgin's imagination.

Raised catholic, confirmed and everything, I rebelled against it in my teenage years, slowly coming around and appreciating the tradition nowadays. Went to Church a few times, trying to find my place.

>>4708963
>virgin gf
Maybe if she's like 8.

>>4708975
>>4708988
No one is claiming that as soon as you stick a dick into a women she magically transforms from an innocent sweetheart into a raging slutty skank. It's just that the kind of girl who waits is the kind of girl to have the qualities on the left of the pic.

>>4708806
http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/francesco/apost_exhortations/documents/papa-francesco_esortazione-ap_20131124_evangelii-gaudium_en.html

There it is

Based Pope.

>>4708948
>You got to admit that bringing philosophy to the people through religion was brilliant.

I would agree to a motion where we would allow for greater exposure to philosophy in the general curriculum. However, doing it through religion is brilliant in some ways and terrible in others.

Religion often asks of you to eschew reason in favor of faith, which I believe philosophers would generally abhor. In this sense, it was a terrible idea for philosophy in general. If we include rethoric in our notion of philosophy, then it was brilliant for religion, as the believers could now arm themselves with weapons of discourse to defend their beliefs. Weapons also allow for attack however, and some would frown on converting the lesser minds by means of articulate devices.

In general, it seems in some ways to be similar to bringing "the art of writing great literature" through a "workshop of YA writing".

Anyhow, Kierkegaard would go crazy.

>>4708963
left gave diabetes
good going, cunt

>>4708931
Did you know that the catholic church was the only one with the resources and infrastructure necessary to keep and develop science during the middle ages?
Did you know that some of the most important developments made to science were made by catholic priests?
Did you also knew that there's a thing called a fucking history book so you can check it yourself?

>>4708976
1. they aren't catholics if they are picky about their faith and 2. nobody said you had to be perfect to be a catholic.

>>4708550
No one intelligent for sure

>>4708993
I have to wonder, and this is a little off topic: are there any non-theist philosophers that advocate for the welfare of the poor in the same way that Christian thinkers have? I know Marxism is basically meant to lift the poor up, but I feel like it tends to be the exception.

>>4709002
*tips trilby*

>>4709002
>I know Marxism is basically meant to lift the poor up

Great literature thread you fucking cultist faggots

>>4709007
>>>/pol/
>>>/reddit/

>>4709014
It is, there is literature posted ITT.

>>4709006
No idea, daily reminder that one of the most viscous Jacobins was a catholic priest.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacques_Roux

>>4709000
No, I did not know that. I am glad that they did so. See what happens when you support a claim? The notion that I should "just learn it from a hstory book" is a really crappy way of discussing something, although I am open to any argument that might support this.

However, I would want to say that preserving important philosophical texts and furthering their exegesis and every other progression of philosophy occurring during the church is definitely not a knockdown argument to support "Catholicism basically invented modern philosophy". Which is what I had a problem with.

>>4709000
The Catholic church was also responsible for the welfare of many improvished peasants and people down on their luck.

>>4709006
>Marx
>welfare
come on now nigga

>>4708957

hehe

>>4709059
I don't mean 'welfare' as in charity, but as a concern for their general well-being.

I mean, you can make the argument that philosophy is classless, because anyone can be edified by the search for truth, but in practice, philosophy always seems concerned with the man of means, the man of leisure.

>>4708997
You see, things like treating other people like people, separating state affairs from religious affairs and the idea of redemption through repentance, are all ideas that we take for granted today, and I'm sure that Jesus wasn't the first to think of them but he definitely was to first to teach them to people outside of academic circles.

Also, back then, the world was this immense and uncertain place where people needed to be sure of what they experienced, the masses needed faith more than skepticism.
We live in a golden era of information, and we like to ask for evidence for anything, but people didn't have it that easily back then.

You have to also take into account that the church was the first one to be skeptic about everything, then and today.

>>4709042
Modern, it was definitely an influence. Contemporary, fucking no.

>>4709006
all leftists.

>>4709055
based church

>>4708808
You realise that, save a handful, these pictures are all manufactured?

>>4709000
>>4709055
Fuck off, idiots. This is like the state taking all your wealth and property and handing it pack to you in pieces and when you object it tells you not to bite the hand that feeds.

>>4709087
It makes me no less depressed to see such people in the world.

>>4709105
That's false because the Church kept the egalitarian spirit that makes people want to help each other alive in the first place.

>>4709055
And secularists think we shouldn't have impoverished people anyway you retard

>>4709161
Yes, well, I'm still waiting for that to happen.

>>4708550
>devištva tat.jpg
You're just making it worse OP
where you from?

>Sunday morning
>little brother is doing confirmation prep
>waiting for him in the parish library
>never really browsed it before
>lots of old books
>nice selection of bible translations
>finally see an edition of the Confraternity Bible
>Aquinas, Augustine, and other saints' writings
>Butler's Lives of the Saints
>several books on medieval literature

I was very surprised that liberals hadn't ruined the library over the past few decades. I've really got to go back.

>>4709255
How would liberals ruin a Catholic parish library?

Not catholic, but fascinated by Catholicism.

I was raised Catholic and I really like the Church as an institution but I do not consider myself Catholic as I do not think that God exists.

>>4709274
We should start an order of non religious catholics.

I like the structure of the church, I like most of the teachings and I wouldn't mind joining a monastery, only I don't believe god exists.

>>4709000

Did you know there wouldn't be science or philosophy without the pagan Greeks and Romans?
Did you know that it was Christianity that caused Europe to go into a black hole of ignorance in the first place?

>>4709290
>blames the church
>not cultural degradation from excessive immigration and loss of traditions
kek

>>4709290
>Did you know there wouldn't be science or philosophy without the pagan Greeks and Romans?

>Did you know there would be no civilization without the mesopotamian city states?
Everything borrows from something else, it's what's made of it that matters.

Did you know that it was Christianity that caused Europe to go into a black hole of ignorance in the first place?

Go read some history, faggot.

>>4709260
In the decades following Vatican II many parishes were purged of their art, chant, books, and anything traditional by liberals in the "spirit of vatican ii."

>>4709161
Funny, because when secularists confiscated church property were peasants lived the peasants ended up poorer than before. So much that now the left support common peasant property (see their support for the Zapatistas in Mexico), something the Church and their Conservative allies in the XIXth always did.

Pic related.

>>4709299
Do you have any links for Vatican II forcing parish libraries to get rid of writings by Aquinas and Augustine or other saints

that seems unlikely, but i suppose i wasn't around in the 60s

>>4709290
>Did you know there wouldn't be science or philosophy without the pagan Greeks and Romans?

And there wouldn't be Greco-Roman science without Egyptian, Babylonian and Persian science either.

>Did you know that it was Christianity that caused Europe to go into a black hole of ignorance in the first place?

>2014
>still buys the conflict thesis

Step it up senpai

>>4709235
Slovenia, the dudes nickname was really "Devištva tat" (Virginity Thief or Virginity Stealer) doe, because he was known for fuging tons of girls in high school and during his studies.

He was a known poet and also got beatified by based John Paul II.

>>4709310
Vatican II isn't the culprit. The culprits were individuals who misinterpreted Vatican II as a call to radically change the church.

>>4709298

>faggot

Wow, how scholarly and how Christlike.
Oh, and about all your huffing and puffing about history, Europe under the Catholic Church was basically what Saudi Arabia is today. All that stuff about doing empirical research and human rights started way after the Middle Ages you have such a hard on for

>>4709313

>seriously thinking that the Middle Ages were some kind of utopian paradise

Yeah, no. It was basically like Afganistan today, except that they didn't have AKs and RPGs

>>4709325
At the heart of the Reneissance and putting the human in the center of it all were Christian theologans from Italy

>>4709319
Catholics = Alpha as fuck
Atheists = Beta fedora losers

>>4709331

And? Newton believed in alchemy, that does not make alchemy responsible for revolutionizing physics

>>4709325
>>4709330
well come on, let's get it straight, was it like afghanistan or saudi arabia

>>4709325
>Europe under the Catholic Church was basically what Saudi Arabia is today

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troubadors

>All that stuff about doing empirical research

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope_Sylvester_II
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Grosseteste
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roger_Bacon
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albertus_Magnus
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_of_Ockham

>human rights

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peace_and_Truce_of_God

>>4709310
Cardinal Burke at Loomes Booksellers

part 1
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gg7zcL9CavQ

part2
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uEMHSI52UQo

>>4709338

Well, they're both essentially theocracies with no freedoms and no human rights whatsoever, so I guess Saudi Arabia would have been Italy from the Middle Ages and Afganistan would have been the rural parts of any European country from back then.

>>4709325
>Wow, how scholarly and how Christlike.

>implying I'm christian myself
You don't have to be catholic to know that it wasn't christianity that brought it down, if anything, it's thanks to christianity that some of it remained and reached us.

>>4709348
>theocracies

Half of the time during the Middle Ages the Church was divided or submitted by temporal powers of the time. They couldn't establish a theocracy, not even if they wanted.

>>4709348
>>4709348
>I guess Saudi Arabia would have been Italy from the Middle Ages

This claim is simply so absurd that it is legitimately hard to take anything that you're saying seriously. Even simply in political organization, Italy was not a theocracy, it was a diverse and constantly changing collection of city-states, kingdoms, fiefdoms, papal territories, republics, and imperial territories. Fucking shit. "Saudi Arabia is medieval Italy". I am not being rhetorical here, I really can't take you seriously with that.

>>4709342

>Sylvestre etc.

None of those did any scientific research as we know it today. All of the major discoveries didn't happen until after Copernicus, and that was because unlike the people you mentioned, scientists actually test what they examine

>human rights in the Middle Ages

Lolwat. There was no trias politica. There was no freedom of speech. There was no seperation of church and state. There was no independent judicial system. People who were declared guilty were killed on a townsquare.

How can anyone defend the bible after all the terrible things it dictates and has been the cause of through human history?

http://www.evilbible.com/Ritual_Human_Sacrifice.htm

It's almost as if you guys don't actually know much about theology and haven't read the bible yourselves. It's almost as if you guys don't go out of your way to disprove it, but think about how to accommodate modern ideology "AROUND" the bible's infantile axioms. ... oh wait

>>4709372
Hey let's just pretend all of Europe had the exact same social system for several centuries and that there was no nuance or difference across it at all! I'm sure no one will realize that we don't know what we're talking about!

>>4709374

I know it didn't. The social-political system has gotten significantly better, mostly during those big bad evil modern times

>>4709372
You're the insufferable /sci/ troll, aren't you?

>>4709369

My point is that Europe used to be backwards as fuck, in much of the same ways the Muslim world is currently backwards as fuck in

>>4709373
>bible endorses human sacrifice of firstborn sons

confirmed for extremely poor reading comprehension skills

>>4709383
If you know that social, political, and legal systems varied dramatically in different regions of Europe and changed in significant ways over the course of the Medieval period, then why did you say that they were the same everywhere?

>Lolwat. There was no trias politica. There was no freedom of speech. There was no seperation of church and state. There was no independent judicial system. People who were declared guilty were killed on a townsquare.

Or maybe I'm misreading you and you're only regarding political freedoms and protections and systems as positive and meaningful if they happen to be framed in precisely the same terms as modern systems. Which is still mega stupid.

>>4709394
But it wasn't any better during the roman and greek periods, the state was just as bloody or worse, depending on the period you compare it with.

I still don't understand your point.

>>4709387

No, I'm just not an arrogant blowhard like you. I go around telling everyone and his mom that everything I believe in is the reason why the world is so great and that they should be lucky to be in the presence of such a wise elder.

>>4709394
maybe you should have said that instead of saying something that was clearly and factually dumb as fuck. you clearly were comparing the specific circumstances of medieval Europe and the specific circumstances of the contemporary Middle East.

>>4709372
>None of those did any scientific research as we know it today. All of the major discoveries didn't happen until after Copernicus, and that was because unlike the people you mentioned, scientists actually test what they examine

A lot of medieval discoveries were lost because Renaissance scholars hated the Middle Ages. Theodoric of Freiberg work on rainbows was rediscovered by Descartes, Nicole Oresme work on harmonic series was rediscovered by the Bernoulli brothers, Jean Buridan work on inertia was rediscovered by Isaac Newton and so on.

Of course, they were not following the same scientific method as invented by Galileo, but neither were the pagan scientists of the hellenistic age, and no one discredits them for it.

>Lolwat. There was no trias politica. There was no freedom of speech. There was no seperation of church and state. There was no independent judicial system. People who were declared guilty were killed on a townsquare.

There was a separation of the temporal and spiritual powers, which was brought by the Investiture Controversy, which also worked as a way to maintain certain judicial independence, so that if you don't like the decision of the canon court you could appeal to the temporal court and vice-versa

>>4709325
>human rights

The same people who invented this shit committed the Reign of Terror, the Vendee Genocide and other massacres.

Why should anyone take this seriously? "Human rights" is basically a way that liberal intelligentsia can define who is human and who isn't (for example, kulaks aren't human) and so commit their genocides without answering to natural law.

>>4709399
Why are you cherry picking that one example? Just because I linked that doesn't mean I adhere to everything that is said. Cherry picking one bad example doesn't suddenly make that extensively made contrarian website negligible.

>>4709420
he probably is focusing it because that's the page that you chose to link, you fucking mong

>>4709383
This secular social-political system launched Europe in two World Wars.

They only stopped killing each other when Christian democracy, which was anti-liberal and anti-secular got in power in France, Germany and Italy.

>>4709372

they didn't have the internet either. i know, it's hard to imagine people were so barbaric.

>>4709399
>god kills new borns
>But wait! We don't do it yourself! That'd be bad! Only God can do bad because God is Good!
Literally every atrocity commited by "god" in the bible is suddenly redeemed in the mind of brainwashed believers because of the basic axiom of "God is good! Even if it's bad for me, it's good for him!"

He murdered thousands of first borns in the 10 plagues of Egypt. How on earth can you worship a "holy" murder god like that and not think you're not in DEEP cognitive dissonance? Christianity is no longer a respectable religion. Thousands of years ago it made sense to be Christian because it made sense of the world through easy to understand parables and stories. It's a religion for the imbecile, and for the average person, its philosophy is the most infantile one imaginable. All the answers of existence are degraded into "God made everything! He is good! I can never understand him so I'll never try! Good is good!". It's no longer respectable to be catholic because it's been disproved on all rational grounds, even the "morality" it adheres to is pathetic, infantile, and slave-like. The christian "God" might as well be the ultimate Sadist who gets off on having the herds of billions of pathetic, slave-like, infantile, irrationalists bow down to him. He sounds more like Satan then God. Practically every mystery religion and occult system readily understands the christian God as actually being Satan, especially in Gnosticism.
/rant

>>4709427
It's an example on the page, not the point of the entire page or link. You might have known that if you bothered to open it instead of having such a knee-jerk reaction.

>>4709450
>He murdered thousands of first borns in the 10 plagues of Egypt.
>he actually takes the bible literally

laughingcatholics.jpg

>>4709450
I don't think you realized, but this is a Catholic thread, not a american protestant one.

We don't really care about biblical literalism nor follow this anthropomorfic vision of god.

>>4709459
>>4709464
Explain this symbolically.

If you buy a Hebrew slave, he is to serve for only six years. Set him free in the seventh year, and he will owe you nothing for his freedom. If he was single when he became your slave and then married afterward, only he will go free in the seventh year. But if he was married before he became a slave, then his wife will be freed with him. If his master gave him a wife while he was a slave, and they had sons or daughters, then the man will be free in the seventh year, but his wife and children will still belong to his master. But the slave may plainly declare, 'I love my master, my wife, and my children. I would rather not go free.' If he does this, his master must present him before God. Then his master must take him to the door and publicly pierce his ear with an awl. After that, the slave will belong to his master forever. (Exodus 21:2-6 NLT)

>>4709472
Old Covenant is Old. All their judicial laws ceased to bind with the advent of Christ.

>>4709472

That's not symbolism that's just good sense. Those laws probably saved a lot of trouble back then.

>>4709472
Not everything was written to be symbolic. Hermeneutics in the catholic tradition understands that the texts were written by different authors in different periods, some were written alegorically and were to be understood through symbolism, others were just law systems that were useful for the period, but ultimately blown out of the water by the new covenant, hence why the New Testament is given a lot more importance than the old books. The texts are said to be divinely inspired, but not written directly by the hand of god or with god dictating them, which is why the sola scriptura of protestants is retarded.

I mean, you have historical evidence on how the bible was formed through time, some books being considered canon, some weren't, etc. It's incredibly stupid to consider the bible as the source of the religion instead of the living church that continues its tradition.

>>4709497
Common mistake.
http://www.evilbible.com/do_not_ignore_ot.htm
>>4709505
Not having these laws would probably have saved a lot of evil back then.

>>4709520
>still taking the bible literally

This is quite alright if you're arguing against protestants who follow sola scriptura, but you're still retarded.

>>4709519
>It's incredibly stupid to consider the bible as the source of the religion instead of the living church that continues its tradition.

This. There is a reason why Charles Maurras said that one of the good things the Church did during the Middle Ages was "hid" some dangerous content of the Bible. It was too much fuel for retards like Luther and Calvin to shit out everything with.

In the vein of symbolism, what is God as a word symbolizing?

>>4709536
The totality of consciousness.

>>4709536
that which exists

#descartes

>>4709524
Everything the bible says can't be symbolic you idiot. So Heaven isn't eternal either? Is that just symbolic for heaven on earth if we're all nice? Is Hell symbolic too? Hell on earth if we're all mean and nasty? What actual axioms are you basing any of your assumptions of God and Catholicism if not from the very Word of God?
>>4709528
Why is the "eternal word of god" the most ambiguous subject from "the word of God"?

Those of you who try to update a ridiculous religion without any formal axioms are dumber then the fanatics who massacred for their insane religion because at least it made sense to follow it back then. Now it's all relativistic junk.

>>4709539
Isn't the unconscious more fundamental?
>>4709541
"Everything"
So "everything" is aware in God and God talks to himself? I'm not following

>>4709519
>church decides to get it straight and write down what they agree on so they would stop bickering and have a solid base to build upon
>never claim that what it was writing was the final word and end of everything
>tradition continues, catholicism continually changing like the living thing it should be
>protestants break off and claim that book the same church had written 1000 years before was the actual right thing
>lalalalalala I can't hear you sola scriptura lalala oh also I'm taking out these books of the bible because they don't agree with me, even though I just claimed the book was to be taken as the literal word of god

I'm not even christian, but I find protestants to be retarded scum.

>>4709552
So says the vedanta. We are like god playing hide and seek with himself in a dream. That's why I asked so I could get clarification on the cathloic definition.

>>4709545
>So Heaven isn't eternal either? Is that just symbolic for heaven on earth if we're all nice? Is Hell symbolic too? Hell on earth if we're all mean and nasty?

We don't really know for sure, all we have done has been to extrapolate and try to see those things through human reason, but they're not for human reason to grasp, we're literally that stupid. That's where faith comes in.

There's many views within catholicism as to what heaven or hell really are or what it all means, but we know that we can't be sure through reason alone. It's stupid of you to think it's possible.

>>4709536
The Logos.

>>4709561
Truth is one though the sages know it by many names.

>>4709568
Your answer to existence is "god" then. That actually answer anything, it just kicks the can down the road. In that regard it's just a clever non-answer. The difference between an irrationality and a rationalist is that the latter isn't satisfied until he "understands the mind of god" in a Faustian sense, while the former is content in believing that an answer exists in his God. This is a chasm I've never been able to help anyone who' been christian for long enough cross. If "faith" is all that's needed then why ask the question to the bigger questions at all? If faith is all that's needed then why would anyone need to try to rationally defend their positions on the greater questions?
>>4709583
pls stop

>>4709587
Please excuse my shit writing, I'm on my phone and can't delete

>>4709545
Heaven is total communion with God, Hell is total separation. "Dantean" mythology is fun and interesting, but it's just mythology.

Check Pierre Teilhard de Chardin concept of the "noosphere" if you want a theological engaging vision of what "Heaven" means to a modern Catholic.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teilhard_de_Chardin

>>4709590
By modern catholic do you mean Pierre's view is formally endorsed by the Vatican?

>>4709600
Yup.

>Teilhard de Chardin depicted the cosmos as a process of ascent, a series of unions. From very simple beginnings the path leads to ever greater and more complex unities, in which multiplicity is not abolished but merged into a growing synthesis, leading to the “Noosphere”, in which spirit and its understanding embrace the whole and are blended into a kind of living organism. Invoking the epistles to the Ephesians and Colossians, Teilhard looks on Christ as the energy that strives toward the Noosphere and finally incorporates everything in its “fullness’. From here Teilhard went on to give a new meaning to Christian worship: the transubstantiated Host is the anticipation of the transformation and divinization of matter in the christological “fullness”. In his view, the Eucharist provides the movement of the cosmos with its direction; it anticipates its goal and at the same time urges it on.”

Pope Benedict XVI (pls come back we miss you)

>>4709590
What is "total separation from God?" If true wouldn't that have to be nonexistence?

>>4709609
If only Modern day Catholicism had the strength to ditch the old bible all together and formally evolve.

>>4709609
>Pope Benedict XVI (pls come back we miss you)

ehhhhhh

undoubtedly a great thinker and theologian but i'm not sure that he was a great pope.

>>4709622
That depends.

If God exists outside of his creation, then technically we're all in "total separation of God", meaning we're already in Hell (akin to Gnosticism). That would mean "total connection to God" meant we'd have to materially die to formally leave the material world/hell to become one with God (again, as in Gnosticism) spiritually/mentally.

But if God IS a part of the universe/is the universe, then "total connection to God" would be akin to achieving "God Consciousness"/enlightenment, akin to eastern religions- meaning we'd all either become Gods in our own right, or just "become one". That would mean "total separation from God" would mean staying in the material world either forever, until Resurrection, or just remain in the Reincarnation wheel (akin to Eastern Religions again).

This kind of theological/philosophical inquiry is what I love. That faith shit could never compare to actually thinking this through in hopes of finding a rational answer.

>>4709630
With a marxist demagogue on the chair of Saint Peter, i can miss even Rodrigo Borgia.

>>4709628
Of all the faiths, and all the branches of Christianity, if one of them were to move beyond the Bible, it would be Catholicism, which formally and officially places 'tradition' and 'scripture' on equal levels. And 'tradition' is basically just shorthand for 'the teachings of the Church.'

>>4709663
Francis is precisely what the Church needs now. It doesn't need a thinker and a theologian- it needs a priest and an evangelist. It needs a man of the people, a servant of the poor.

Benedict should never have left the Inquisition. That was where his talents were put to the best use. He probably shouldn't have been pope, but he was, so I must believe he was pope for a reason (being a good Catholic myself).

>>4709669
Well anons, if you all don't want the increasingly godless world to lose its interest in the increasingly irrelevant Catholicism, then why not bring about its evolution yourself?

>mfw you decide to do this because someone on 4chan told you to
>implying I'm not a divine revelation in my own right
>implying you won't be visited by me if you take this call to adventure

If you accept, or are considering my proposal, then here's a nice list of where to look for me.

Theosophy, Madame Blavatsky, Anthroposophy, Rudolf Steiner, Pierre Teilhard de Chardin, the Noosphere, the Omega Point, Spinoza, Schopenhauer, Kant, Neoplatonism, Henri Bergson, and Elan Vital.

>>4708882
I think Nebraska looks nice.

>>4709688
Just knock first, I tend to shoot on sight and sometimes when I'm not looking, just in case.

>>4708550
I might have become a priest at one point in my life if they were allowed to marry.

>>4709688
>increasingly irrelevant Catholicism

Nope

>>4709006
Literally everything left of and including Social Democracy.

>raised catholic grew away from the Church as I got older
>talk to my dad once; we generally don't talk about religion because he's pretty much figured out that I don't believe in God
>somehow we get on the topic of Jews
>he tells me that in order for the Rapture to happen and the righteous to be saved, all Jews have to be converted to Catholicism
>on another occasion he tells me exorcisms are real and happen all the time

The man went to Harvard and is one of the smartest people I know, god damn.

>>4709847
Well of course exorcisms are real. Demonic possession is no joke, Anon.

>>4709847
i will never understand why unbelievers seem to think that those who believe don't really believe

>>4709856
>>4709855
they're called fucking seizures

how has the Catholic church reformed itself so much in the past century but not turned away from fucking Beelzebub horror stories

>>4709847

of course exorcisms are real, demons aren't going to leave of their own volition.

>>4709862
No, there's a pretty substantial difference between epileptic episodes and possession by a demon.

You can't stop seizures by invoking Saint Michael the Archangel, for example.

>>4709862
i was referring more to the jew thing
the exorcism thing is a little more out there i guess

>>4708550
This thread got real /x/ suddenly.

>>4709856
Because some of this shit is abjectly fucking retarded.

Try to explain the Eucharist or holy trinity to someone who has never heard a word of it. The whole God question is still up in the air (and will always find some pocket of ignorance to hide in), but religion itself is horribly dated and backwards.

The Orthodox Church isn't so bad as far as ideas go, i guess, but its a cancerous tumor on the side of Russia, always has been.

>>4709875
There's always going to be an /x/ aspect of religion, because it deals with things that have no basis in reason. Things like transfigurations and miracles and spirit visits and the very existence of a god.

The truth is, crappy modern spiritualism and religion are not as different as either party would like you to believe. They both rely on things that go beyond the perception of the senses.

>>4709856
People see the world through the lenses of their own beliefs. In my experience, both theists and atheists doubt the other side's sincerity.

>>4709880
almost every aspect of culture is retarded by those standards

>>4709847
The rapture isn't even catholic theology, as a catholic acquaintance is always to point out.

>>4709906
i know, but why?
i understand why a religious person who has never entertained atheism would do so, but why the atheist who has had a belief in god?

Nominal christian reporting

>>4708940
>straight talk
Maybe if the talk is a straight edge.

>>4708616
Nobody was making any generalizations about all Catholics being pedophiles, just that the situation in OP's pic hints at some sort of intimate relationship between the young boy and the priest.

I recently started to read Paradise Lost. I'm not too far in, but already I want to see Lucifer succeed. See, I'm going into this book with a bias. I lost my little brother recently, and life has become a struggle for me. I go back and forth between believing and not believing in god. I know that I hate god with all of my heart. I hate god so much. I won't get off topic, this isn't my blog. I have one question. Might this book change the way I feel about these things?

>>4710452
don't ask us. figure out how books work.

>>4710464
Shit, I'm just curious. I'm not even asking to be spoonfed the actual content of the book. Has it ever changed any of your minds on this subject?

>>4708882
I've never understood the idea that Catholicism is unappealing to outsiders. I guess it's the whole pope thing? I mean, Catholics get to smoke and drink, and if you don't mind opening up once in a while all your sins get forgiven long before you get to Heaven.

Really, as far as levels of difficulty go, Catholicism and Orthodoxy are near the bottom. They don't do snake-handling, either, which is another point in their favor.

>>4710452
Milton feels like he was on Lucifer's side, so I doubt it.

Hes a sort of predecessor to Romantic of rebellion (think Ivan Karamavoz).

>>4710452
Milton feels like he was on Lucifer's side, so I doubt it.

Hes a sort of predecessor to Romantic style rebellion (think Ivan Karamavoz).

>>4709856

It's a manifestation of my last vestige of hope in humanity. Literally all it takes to disprove religion or any other idiotic superstition is the simple and oft-repeated principle of the burden of proof.

I don't understand how one could maintain ridiculous beliefs in the face of a clear and perfect argument to the contrary.

>>4709296
>cultural degradation
>immigrants
>Christians
pick three

>>4709880
>The Orthodox Church isn't so bad as far as ideas go, i guess, but its a cancerous tumor on the side of Russia, always has been.
You have got to be fucking kidding.

not much I have to input here, but my first girlfriend was catholic and she was a freak in the sheets

so if I'm to assume you guys are doing anything right, its that you're making top-notch cocksuckers

>>4710476
>Really, as far as levels of difficulty go, Catholicism and Orthodoxy are near the bottom

no cumming outside a vagina
no abortions

that's quite the ask. and i can't imagine a catholic just fucking anyone they want and just confessing each week (the priest must get pissed)

Me.

>>4711151
If you don't die in a mortal sin, you avoid hell.
It's that easy.

>>4711189

>mortal sin
>2014

Catholicism dumped that shit ages ago, friend. Grow the fuck up and read pic related. There are no mortal sins there.

>>4711194
The Catechism of the Catholic Church defines grave matter as:

1858. Grave matter is specified by the Ten Commandments, corresponding to the answer of Jesus to the rich young man: "Do not kill, Do not commit adultery, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Do not defraud, Honor your father and your mother." The gravity of sins is more or less great: murder is graver than theft. One must also take into account who is wronged: violence against parents is in itself graver than violence against a stranger.

Apparently they just renamed it.

>>4711189

sounds like the focus is on a holy death rather than a holy life

>>4711196

The book in pic related literally says that even suicide doesn't guarantee hell, as God does what He pleases and most likely has ideas for us beyond the grave. Assuming God is a cunt is a graver sin than fapping.

Why do Catholics love to pretend that their Church is the original one?
I was just reading this thread >>>/pol/28196468

There are bunch of Catholics who don't know that Catholicism was essentially an offshoot that separated itself from the Orthodox, because Catholics don't want you to know it. It's bullshit. You're no better than protestants.

>>4711230

Catholics is the original church, dumbass. Peter was the first pope and the Christianity established in Rome came straight from the early Christians. So yes.

Catholicism has priests who've talked to each other, taught each other, in a straight line to Christ.

Don't be jealous.

>>4711230
>that separated itself from the Orthodox,

When it's one group, you don't have different names, not at this point.

The separation happened much, much later, when the Roman empire broke in two.

You're retarded.

>>4711242
The separation happened much later, due to Romans disagreeing with the traditions of the Orthodox that they kept since the beginning. Also there was tampering with the Apostle's Creed and absurd claims of the Pope.
I don't see how there's anyone but Catholics to blame in this story. It's sad, we should be unified and not harbor this hatred.

>>4711240
Protestantism deterritorialized the church, as in the conversation we're having right now. Or I don't know what deterritorialization really is, but Ernest Renan writes that Aquila and Priscilla were the first known members of the Church of Rome: "As far as we are concerned, we believe that the place where western Christianity was born was not the theatrical basilica dedicated to St. Peter, but the old Ghetto of Porta Portese." Tradition is very important and I'd like to learn more about it, certainly.

Peter was also the rock that the church of Antioch was founded upon, probably before the Roman church, and at about the same as the one in Alexandria in Egypt. There's little to no evidence he was actually ever in Rome and is mostly an assumption by later chroniclers. His first successors were little more than a name as well. The main reason Rome has primacy in catholicism is due to the donation of Constantine, when the Roman emperor supposedly bequeathed Rome to the papacy, but that document was a much later medieval forgery. Rome doesn't really have any more primacy as the seat of the original church than several other places on the Mediterranean and beyond.

>>4709880
>Try to explain the Eucharist or holy trinity to someone who has never heard a word of it
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KQLfgaUoQCw

Not religious, but I always liked the whole "we go back hundreds of years" thing the Catholics have going on. And the Latin chanting/singing/praying is something I enjoy.

That said, my family is/was "nondenominational" Christians. Basically Protestants I guess. And I was raised partially Jewish. The only thing Catholic I ever attended were a few sermons when my friends' parents were making them go alone.

>>4711458
Oh, and I gotta say, I respect Pope Frank. Seems like a stand-up kinda guy. Are all Jesuits like him?

>>4711466
I'm an argie and actually met him back when he was a bishop.
He's still pretty much the rector of my college, Catholic University of Argentina.

He was pretty chill, and so are most of the people from his order, you get some uptight people here and there but I think they're well meaning anyway, speaking of both franciscans and jesuits here.

It's funny because I've always been an atheist, but my college years were spent around that environment.

>tfw I also personally met pope benedict at a meeting when I was travelling through italy
I know plenty of catholics jelly of my pope history so far.

>>4711487
>I'm an argie and actually met him back when he was a bishop.
>He was pretty chill, and so are most of the people from his order,
Really? Interesting. All around he just acts like a cool grandpa.

What makes a Jesuit different from normie Catholics anyway?

>tfw I also personally met pope benedict at a meeting when I was travelling through italy
Wasn't Benedict the Nazi? I know Paul 2 was the guy everyone liked, and then he died, and then the Nazi Boy Wonder came in, right?

Still, that's pretty cool. I've wanted to travel through Italy for a while.

>>4711493

Some think Jesuits are of the devil, others think they're an elite corps of Catholics, high on education and etc. Check Francis' record.

Benedict got a bad rep, he wasn't a people person, he was a theologian and an intellectual, efficient at his biz from the inside of an office. Not the best person for a pope, but not a douche like everyone tries to say.

Western media always hate the Pope.

I'm a Northern Irish Catholic. Even though I'm not actually religious, the tag is stamped onto me from birth.

>>4711493
>Really? Interesting. All around he just acts like a cool grandpa.

He was pretty chill, yeah, but he's not a harmless grandpa either. He had his faults, but he insists on them even now, can't really blame him for the media storm he's in right now.

>What makes a Jesuit different from normie Catholics anyway?

I never got it that clear myself, all I really know is that Jesuits focused more on education, sciences, etc. and that through science god could be known better, as opposed to, say, charismatics who believe god is through expression and something that's inside of you and science would drive you away from it, something like that.

>Wasn't Benedict the Nazi? I know Paul 2 was the guy everyone liked, and then he died, and then the Nazi Boy Wonder came in, right?

Pretty much every kid at that age in Germany was in Hitler's Youth, it was a national program, doesn't mean he adhered to it or was a straightup nazi. It's been overblown by media and anticatholics, really.

>>4711513
>He had his faults, but he insists on them even now, can't really blame him for the media storm he's in right now.

What's he done that's so bad? Aside from cursing during a sermon, or so I've heard.

>I never got it that clear myself, all I really know is that Jesuits focused more on education, sciences, etc. and that through science god could be known better,
Based as fuck.

>Pretty much every kid at that age in Germany was in Hitler's Youth, it was a national program, doesn't mean he adhered to it or was a straightup nazi
Fair enough. I don't see it thought like that much.

>>4711524
>What's he done that's so bad?

Basically being a normal person and not a saint. He has talked about how he wanted to marry this girl when he was young, he worked as a bar bouncer, etc. While a bishop, he missed sermons now and then and people would have to cover for him, but considering he took public transport and Buenos Aires is highly unpredictable with traffic, it's not that high of an offense.

Some claim he aided the latest dictatorship, or ot least, looked the other way, but it's been pretty much disproven.

>>4708654
Pretty much.

>>4711533
Perhaps it's because I'm not Catholic, but I don't understand why the Pope needs to be a paragon of virtue, and an absolutely perfect person.

Yes, he's supposed to be the link to God, but everybody sins and being a priest doesn't change that. I would be more likely to respect a guy who knew the ways of the world, knew how "normal" people lived and felt, and transcended from there to a position of power, authority, and virtue through the religion and his hard work, than I would be to respect someone deemed perfect and holy and having never committed a sin.

>>4711542
>I don't understand why the Pope needs to be a paragon of virtue, and an absolutely perfect person.

He doesn't. The media want you to think so, though.

The first Pope, Peter, denied Christ Himself, three times.

>>4711493
>What makes a Jesuit different from normie Catholics anyway?
I'm not versed on it, but Jesuits are strange, the ones I've met at least. They're like zen priests, this inquisitive lot of extremes. I got the feeling if a door to some hell opened, they'd be the first to walk in and look around.

Would go adventuring with.

>>4711493
Benedict was the German - highly respected as a theologian, also an arch conservative. John Paul 2 was the one before him; he was Pope for about 30 years, traveled around the world more than any other pope, was hugely popular. Was anti-communist, committed to ecumenism, and a moderate conservative. Is going to be made a saint next month.

John Paul I was his predecessor who reigned less than a month. Bit of a modernizer, last Italian pope after about 450 years of every pope being Italian. Before him you had Paul VI who was a conservative who nonetheless presided over Vatican II (started by his predecessor) and maybe a bit of an insider Vatican establishment type, and before him John XXIII who is beloved for being incredibly warm and human and compassionate, and who started Vatican II, and is going to become a saint at the same time as JP2.

>>4711542
>Perhaps it's because I'm not Catholic, but I don't understand why the Pope needs to be a paragon of virtue, and an absolutely perfect person.

Catholic doctrine understands this and nowhere does it say that, but he gets more media exposure than a random celebrity, so even so every little action he does is praised/criticised.

Every time the pope shows a flaw, the anticatholics exploit it to the best they can. The media is really the problem to that.

Francis actually openly talks about these things to promote that point of view, he himself confessed the girl thing, bouncer, etc. because he doesn't really want people to think only saints can be good people. It's something that everyone can do, but the media just creates these figures constantly.

>>4711546
>The first Pope, Peter, denied Christ Himself, three times.

People seem to forget shit like that. I feel like it's because it's easier to look up to some sort of idealized person of virtue than to be a virtuous person yourself.

I mean, I'm an agnostic atheist and yet I don't hate the church or the messages it/Jesus taught - turn the other cheek, love thy neighbor, care for the hungry, sick and poor - etc.

>>4711548
>They're like zen priests, this inquisitive lot of extremes. I got the feeling if a door to some hell opened, they'd be the first to walk in and look around.
>Would go adventuring with.
Jesuits sound like the best Catholic denomination, for sure.

>>4711549
John XXIII and Paul 2 seem like pretty cool guys. Benedict still seems a little cold, at least to me.

>>4711551
See, I'm totally down with all of that. Maybe it's truly because of the media, but a lot of the Catholics I know seem to believe that the Pope is supposed to be an incredibly poor, always virtuous Shepard among the heard.

>>4711560
incredibly pure*

I remember that the beef with Jesuits was that they got hijacked by commies, violent commies, and one of them made that liberation theory bullshit that justified violent revolutions through the bible.

Shame that happened. They are pretty cool guys.

>>4711591
Liberation theology may have its flaws but at bottom it is all about a passionate love for the poor and a desire to help them, and this is not a bad thing, or a Communist thing, or anything.

>>4711598
Well, what I really meant was that the reason why liberation theology became "dangerous" was because of the context in which it appeared.
It wasn't a core idea (more of an appropriated one) for subversive groups, but it was employed by them nonetheless.

>>4711605
In short, some people got too passionate and some other people seized this.
why didnt i included this in the prior post damn

I was raised protestant, but I'm an atheist now. Wouldn't mind checking out a catholic church, mainly because I've never been to one.

It's probably cooler in my mind.

>>4708550
So which of those kids is the man banging?

>>4711616
*tips fedora*
t
i
p
s

f
e
d
o
r
a
*

>>4711612
Catholic churches are pretty beautiful man, check out some cathedral.
Orthodox ones are great as well but I've been in only one of them so it amazed me

>>4710541
youre so fedora it hurts

that you would be so full of hubris to reject any possibility of a higher power whatsoever is silly

>>4710541
>I don't understand how one could maintain ridiculous beliefs in the face of a clear and perfect argument to the contrary.
Being unable to see god, a concept, is not enough to disprove it.
Being unable to see most of the things that hold the universe doesn't disprove them either.

You'd knew there are things beyond simple observation if you weren't so busy tipping it.

>>4708588
>My name is Ralph
every time

>>4712367

>muh maymays

The fedora meme just gives dumb people an excuse to be anti-intellectual.

It's not out of hubris I don't believe in God, it's out of simple principles of logic. Is it possible there is a God? Sure. But why would I bother adding unnecessary elements to the equation? There is a God, and a unicorn too, and planet-sized crab, and they had a two-hundred trillion-year orgy before they ejaculated simultaneously and caused the universe. Is that silly? Not any more than any "real" religion.

>>4712653

Being unable to give any evidence or logical reasoning that something exists demands that we assume that something is not real.

My perception of the intelligence of humanity has been lowered, thank you, gentlemen. Good luck remembering to breathe and eat regularly.

>>4712947
>Being unable to give any evidence or logical reasoning that something exists demands that we assume that something is not real.
Absolutely incorrect. It demands you assume you don't know.

>>4712947
>Being unable to give any evidence or logical reasoning that something exists demands that we assume that something is not real.

But there are logical arguments for the existence of God.

>>4712947
Don't argue against god, argue against what the possibility entails. Say we have a universe that is intelligent in a manner fractally larger than our own. Then what? Why should we commune with it?

>>4708975
They're immaculate.

>>4712367
No one worships the possibility of god, so that's irrelevant.

>>4709373
>http://www.evilbible.com/Ritual_Human_Sacrifice.htm

Unbiased source is unbiased.

i now realize catholicism is the worst form of christianity

>>4708963
So that's why Catholics like 'em young. ;)

>>4713481
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VABSoHYQr6k
It's science.

>>4713920
edgeville

I honestly don't understand how you can read the Bible and be a Catholic at the same time. The Catholics invented so much shit, it's hardly Christianity. If the Protestants didn't stop them back in the 16th century, they would have gone on trying to sell tickets to heaven for money.

>>4714127
Maybe in the past but the Catholic church isn't as money hungry anymore.

Fundie Christian corporate churches are crazy, though. My family went to one for a time and everything was about money. The place itself was high tech but in the televangelist way.

>>4708588
I'll always consider Neil deGrase Tyson a condom-denying homophobic pedophile in the Vatican, or at least now I will.

>>4712973

Don't wear blue clothing, it angers the Narfelg Troll. If you ever wear blue again he will pop out and rape you until you die. Sure, I can't prove he exists or offer any evidence supporting my assertion that he does exist, but that doesn't mean we should simply assume the ridiculous, supernatural being does not exist. We don't know, so we must never wear blue again. And have I told you about orange...

>>4713040

g8 b8 m8

>>4713087

Clarify this please, I don't understand.

>>4714611
I don't trust any man of God who styles himself after a CEO.

Fucking Joel Osteen is the worst of the worst. His ministry is heresy, and I wish someone would have the balls to label it as such.

Guys the Bible has dragons in it, all arguments invalid y r u still religuliss??

>>4716679
>implying dragons aren't real